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They don't really do big balance changes in patches that aren't 2.0.0 or 3.0.0. Some changes do appear to be incoming. Just got to hope MkLeo, Tweek, and Marss doesn't get Joker, Wario, and ZSS nerfed. lol
I don't think they are planning to release a character during E3, but I am expecting them to reveal a character (maybe character(s)). It is the best place to do so.
If you're talking about their performances this weekend, that's way too short notice to be the impetus for any changes in a patch that releases less than a week later. Software updates of any sort always go through some sort of approval or certification process, that's just how business works. It might be as complex as handing the whole thing off to a third party for analysis or as simple as a QA person signing off on it and saying there aren't any game-breaking bugs present, but they can't just slip changes in at the last minute without getting someone mad, since in the worst case it risks the stability of the entire build.
I admit I have no idea how big any of Joker or Arsene's hitboxes are, although I suppose it seems intuitively obvious that Arsene's are bigger than Joker's. (EDIT: Actually I seem to recall seeing a few visualizations of them, but I don't think Tetrakarn/Makarakarn were among them.)
That doesn't mean they should give them an edge on the others (both gameplay wise and aesthetically). Look at how 4's ended. It's Smash fighter DLC. In what world does it not sell?
As competitive players we're forced to buy new fighters, let's be real. But for casuals if they don't like the characters there's no incentive to buy them if they're not good. I'm not saying they should be 'pay to win' of course. Nintendo does have to take sales into consideration and it's hard to throw a new balanced character in the mix. Strategically Nintendo wants to err on the side of superiority. Patches can come later (hopefully).
Tweek my man. You just won GOML last week and got 2nd place at a 1200+ player tourament yesterday. I think you can be a little less hard on yourself.
However it a point is brought up on how much, or little MKLeo's success with Joker may be due to even pro players not knowing exactly how to play the MU yet. Also this is MKLeo who is insame no matter what character he plays. Not to say Joker is not good, he is high-tier at least easy
There are 72 Characters in this game and a fairly amount of them are very simple in fact I wouldn't call any character in this game too complex, the "gimmicks"(I don't know why people call unique mechanics gimmicks but ok) are very straightforward for a fighting game some of you talk like if joker was jack-o from GG.
Agree 100%. Even *Johhny* is more complex than any Smash character bar maybe Ice Climbers in this game, and he was considered fairly simple in Rev 2 compared to several other characters. That being said, things being relative, I do understand some of the complaints about gimmicks and stuff from the perspective of someone that's focused solely on Smash. I will say though that in the original N64 game, each character had its own gimmick at the time, they just don't seem that way now because they're constantly overshadowed by new and more complex characters, let alone the fact that the roster has gone from 12 to 70+, so of course the old stuff seems a lot more tame in comparison. I'm pretty darn confident that the new characters will have unique mechanics ("gimmicks") because that's just more interesting for a DLC fighter, but only time will tell if they help or hinder the meta going forward. No comment on "comeback mechanics" until I understand a bit better why people dislike the relatively weak ones in this game (bar KO Punch, but like.... it's on Little Mac...)
Smash 4 limit made Cloud a faster, heavier and more threatening version of Cloud for as long as he pleased, since there was no timer on having Limit. Comparing Arsene Joker with Cloud in 4 is not an unfounded comparison (except Arsene Joker has a countdown timer).
Well my orginal comparisom of Arsene Joker to Smash 4 Limit Cloud is now you are now dealing a character that has great mobility, giantic hitboxes, huge damage output, great combo ability and can also end your stock at around 80-90% .
Arsene Jokers bair and Smash attacks almost seem LCS of power and abusability. Only differnce is you can potentially stall Joker out and there is a more notable gap of power with and without Arsene.
But I digress Joker possibly becomes the strongest character in the game when Arsene is active. Heck MKleo proved at Momocon Joker is no slouch even without it, in some sets taking most stocks while Arseneless
Don't get me wrong, I definitely understand the temptation to compare limit to Arsene--I just think that this leads to people having the wrong idea about Arsene. There's something to be gained from comparing Arsene to limit, though. When Joker was released, I saw several posts in various places about how with Arsene, Sakurai had 'fixed everything wrong with limit'--you can't just charge it (directly), it has a time limit, etc etc.
Now the smart bomb sized hitbox of Tetrakarn just feels like a footnote to the ridiculousness. We're talking about massive buffs to the entirety of Joker's moveset with zero strings attached--unlike with Aura, there's no guarantee that Joker is at or past mid percents, let alone anywhere near kill percent, and at least the startup on Lucario's moves seems to have been somewhat taken into account--unlike limit, there's no one-use mechanic that can be forced in an edgeguard and no risk of missing and becoming a gimpable character--even with KO punch, one of the least justifiable mechanics in the game, it at least only applies to one move on a character that can't jump--and has a one-use mechanic.
With Arsene, there's nothing. Even if Arsene were simply just entering into the realms of S4 limit comparison, we'd be reaching something borderline problematic. This is well past that--with a standard Arsene interaction, you're either losing over half of your stock or getting KO'd--one or two losing interactions past that and you're getting an entire stock erased--one or two winning interactions instead and you should count yourself lucky and get ready for the next round. When the only identifiable weakness with it is its 20+ frame intangible startup recovery that covers a full veritcal length from the bottom blastzone, you know something is wrong. Arsene fixed nothing about limit--even if the limit speed buffs subtly improved S4 Cloud combos, there's nothing remotely subtle about Arsene--it's designed so that Joker can lay down a pile of bull, and you're forced to deal with it (or try your best not to deal with it) for however long it lasts.
Here's a fun Arsene-limit comparison--Limit blade beam does 22%, comes out on frame 16, kills at late percents, and expends Cloud's limit. Arsene side b deals 20%, comes out on frame 16, kills at late(r) percents, and can be spammed on any poor camping soul. So you're supposed to camp out Arsene? As a matter of fact, yes, or so it seems--because even though it's obviously not foolproof, what else are you supposed to do? There's one other option--hit the Joker and just don't lose any interactions--so all the top players have to do is body Leo. It's that easy.
To outline how not subtle this really is, we can look at actual numbers--I went through and looked at four of Leo's sets (fifteen games total) from Momocon and recorded some data. Sets used were vs. Umeki, Samsora, Marss, and Tweek (WF, wanted to do GF as well, but this stuff was taking too long for my random video game hobby [even if it is summer]):
Total damage dealt with Arsene: 2411%
Total damage dealt without Arsene: 3033%
Total time with Arsene: 1006s
Total time without Arsene: 2000s (yes, exactly 2000 lol)
Average time with Arsene (out of 30s, excluding KO’d/end of game): ~26.5s
Average percent getting Arsene (on a fresh stock): 58%
Average number of Arsenes per game: 3.03
Average damage per Arsene (dps*average Arsene length): ~64% -(note: roughly half of the data points used for this number contained a KO by Joker where the opponent had a guaranteed ~5+ seconds of non-interaction with Joker--this number would be somewhere between 70 and 75% otherwise)
Leo spent on average almost exactly one third of each game with Arsene
~44% of total damage dealt came from Arsene
Number of kills from Arsene: 27
Number of kills without Arsene: 11
~71% of kills came from Arsene
Average kill percent with Arsene (removing highest and lowest two): ~104%
Average kill percent without Arsene (removing highest and lowest one): ~135%
-Most damage done in one Arsene: 130% (beginning of game 3 vs Umeki)
-Second most damage done in one Arsene: 129% (end of game 5 vs Marss, in spite of mid-Arsene KO)
-Earliest kill with Arsene: 46% (fsmash on Marss, game 3)
-Second earliest kill with Arsene: 69% (end of game 5 vs Marss)
-Earliest kill without Arsene: 98% (fsmash on Marss, game 2)
-Second earliest kill without Arsene: 111% (bair on Umeki, game 1)
Percent getting Arsene (on fresh stock):
Umeki:
G1: 70%, 54%, 64%
G2: 60%, 38%
G3: 43%
Samsora:
G1: 65%, 46%
G2: 64%
G3: 65%, 40%, 30%
G4: 64%, 45%
Marss:
G1: 87%, 52%, 38%
G2: 78%, 53%
G3: 70%, 72%
G4: 59%, 42%
G5: 63%, 56%
Tweek:
G1: 65%, 58%
G2: 98%, 77%, 44%
G3: 72%, 22%, 71%
Time spent with Arsene: (KO’d or end of game)
Umeki:
G1: 22s, 26s, (10s)
G2: 30s, 28s, 26s
G3: 29s, (16s)
Samsora:
G1: (15s), 20s, 18s
G2: 28s, 28s, (4s)
G3: 25s, 25s, (15s), (15s)
G4: 22s, 30s, (16s)
Marss:
G1: 28s, 19s, 29s
G2: 23s, 29s, (12s)
G3: 24s, (14s), 23s
G4: 27s, 28s, (15s)
G5: 28s, 28s, 20s, (20s)
Tweek:
G1: 30s, (2s)
G2: 19s, 29s, 28s
G3: 30s, 24s, 17s, (12s)
Time spent without Arsene:
Umeki:
G1: 30s, 77s, 81s
G2: 6s, 49s, 52s
G3: 9s, 47s,
Samsora:
G1: 13s, 28s, 37s, 18s
G2: 35s, 41s, 80s
G3: 31s, 48s, 50s, 13s
G4: 38s, 51s, 24s
Marss:
G1: 43s, 43s, 22s, 28s
G2: 32s, 68s, 26s
G3: 28s, 71s, 20s, 73s
G4: 48s, 48s, 38s
G5: 41s, 50s, 33s, 26s
Tweek:
G1: 51s, 52s
G2: 23s, 45s, 63s, 40s
G3: 33s, 30s, 24s, 43s
Damage dealt with Arsene:
Umeki:
G1: 60%, 16%, 42%
G2: 116%, 92%, 61%
G3: 130%, 40%
Samsora:
G1: 0%, 20%, 0%
G2: 51%, 86%, 30%
G3: 81%, 78%, 7%, 36%
G4: 22%, 107%, 52%
Marss:
G1: (43%), 18%, (50%),
G2: 46%, 69%, (41%)
G3: (64%), (40%), 18%
G4: (44%), (69%), (38%)
G5: 27%, (81%), 23%, (129%)
Tweek:
G1: (96%), (21%)
G2: 0%, (88%), (87%)
G3: (97%), (31%), 42%, (21%)
Damage dealt without Arsene:
Umeki:
G1: 20%, 90%, 91%,
G2: 4%, 64%, 102%
G3: 3%, 82%
Samsora:
G1: 21%, 55%, 43%, 30%
G2: 75%, 43%, 172%
G3: 45%, 70%, 89%, 12%
G4: 117%, 45%, 74%,
Marss:
G1: 72%, 98%, 14%, 37%
G2: 53%, 145%, 24%
G3: 10%, 82%, 0%, 90%
G4: 84%, 55%, 52%
G5: 62%, 48%, 9%, 0%
Tweek:
G1: 111%, 128%,
G2: 18%, 85%, 103%, 80%
G3: 92%, 39%, 43%, 52%
Average kill percents with Arsene:
Umeki:
G1: 88%
G2: 103%
G3: 116%, 90%
Samsora:
G1: 75%
G2: 152%
G3: 106%, 114%
G4: 108%, 108%
Marss:
G1: 90%, 128%,
G2: 116%
G3: 46%, 105%
G4: 93%, 102%, 99%
G5: 138%, 96%, 69%
Tweek:
G1: 80%, 132%
G2: 103%, 162%
G3: 107%, 94%
kill percents without Arsene:
Umeki:
G1: 111
G2: 184, 116
G3:
Samsora:
G1:
G2: 125, 149
G3: 146
G4: 152
Marss:
G1:
G2: 98, 121,
G3:
G4:
G5:
Tweek:
G1:
G2: 132
G3: 165
Here are some of the key takeaways:
-Mkleo had about one Arsene per stock and tended to get it at relatively low percents (mid-fifties).
-Because almost three quarters of Leo's kills were coming with Arsene and Arsene's average kill percent is very low (104%), it is safe to assume that Leo's Joker was in general killing at low percents (an assumption strengthened by the fact that non-Arsene's average kill percent was an also not-high 135%).
-Bearing these kill percents in mind, Leo's Joker was taking on average over half of the opponent's stock per Arsene.
-Because roughly just under half of the data points used for the 'average damage per Arsene' stat also contained a mid-Arsene KO, this also means that roughly just under half of all Arsenes were leading to ~50% in damage and a KO--when the Arsene didn't lead to a KO, it led to between 70-75% on average (i.e. over half of the opponent's stock).
-The most infuriating stats here are the highs--Arsenes that led to well over 100% of damage in mere seconds or were killing well before 100% (or both). In most of these cases we're talking very few losing interactions for the opponent.
-Arsene-less Joker is no slouch--I expected the majority of damage to come from Arsene--turns out 55% of damage comes from non-Arsene Joker (although, of course, two thirds of every game were being spent without Arsene). Non-Arsene Joker has some extremely potent low percent combos and excellent edgeguarding as well--and the average kill percent (135) isn't low at all, even if only ~30% of kills came without Arsene.
Anyways, this post is really meant more to be a comment on Arsene rather than Joker as a whole--that said, Joker is the most obvious top tier I've seen yet. The whole "it's just leo" argument will last (but still be bull) for just as long as no other top players are playing him. Which will last, like, maybe a month or two max.
For a tl;dr we can watch Marss lose two stocks in just under twenty seconds from ~2-4 losing neutral interactions depending on your definition:
Don't get me wrong, I definitely understand the temptation to compare limit to Arsene--I just think that this leads to people having the wrong idea about Arsene. There's something to be gained from comparing Arsene to limit, though. When Joker was released, I saw several posts in various places about how with Arsene, Sakurai had 'fixed everything wrong with limit'--you can't just charge it (directly), it has a time limit, etc etc.
Now the smart bomb sized hitbox of Tetrakarn just feels like a footnote to the ridiculousness. We're talking about drastic buffs to the entirety of Joker's moveset with zero strings attached--unlike with Aura, there's no guarantee that Joker is at or past mid percents, let alone anywhere near kill percent, and at least the startup on Lucario's moves seems to have been somewhat taken into account--unlike limit, there's no one-use mechanic that can be forced in an edgeguard and no risk of missing and becoming a gimpable character--even with KO punch, one of the least justifiable mechanics in the game, it at least only applies to one move on a character that can't jump--and has a one-use mechanic.
With Arsene, there's nothing. Even if Arsene were simply just entering into the realms of S4 limit comparison, we'd be reaching something borderline problematic. This is well past that--with a standard Arsene interaction, you're either losing over half of your stock or getting KO'd--one or two losing interactions past that and you're getting an entire stock erased--one or two winning interactions instead and you should count yourself lucky and get ready for the next round. When the only identifiable weakness with it is its 20+ frame intangible startup recovery that covers a full veritcal length from the bottom blastzone, you know something is wrong. Arsene fixed nothing about limit--even if the limit speed buffs subtly improved S4 Cloud combos, there's nothing remotely subtle about Arsene--it's designed so that Joker can lay down a pile of bull, and you're forced to deal with it (or try your best not to deal with it) for ~20-30 incredibly long seconds.
Here's a fun Arsene-limit comparison--Limit blade beam does 22%, comes out on frame 16, kills at late percents, and expends Cloud's limit. Arsene side b deals 20%, comes out on frame 16, kills at late(r) percents, and can be spammed on any poor camping soul. So you're supposed to camp out Arsene? As a matter of fact, yes, or so it seems--because even though it's obviously not foolproof, what else are you supposed to do? There's one other option--hit the Joker and just don't lose any interactions--so all the top players have to do is body Leo. It's that easy.
To outline how not subtle this really is, we can look at actual numbers--I went through and looked at four of Leo's sets (fifteen games total) from Momocon and recorded some data. Sets used were vs. Umeki, Samsora, Marss, and Tweek (WF, wanted to do GF as well, but this stuff was taking too long for my random video game hobby [even if it is summer]):
Total damage dealt with Arsene: 2411%
Total damage dealt without Arsene: 3033%
Total time with Arsene: 1006s
Total time without Arsene: 2000s (yes, exactly 2000 lol)
Average time with Arsene (out of 30s, excluding KO’d/end of game): ~26.5s
Average percent getting Arsene (on a fresh stock): 58%
Average number of Arsenes per game: 3.03
Average damage per Arsene (dps*average Arsene length): ~64% -(note: roughly half of the data points used for this number contained a KO by Joker where the opponent had a guaranteed ~5+ seconds of non-interaction with Joker--this number would be somewhere between 70 and 75% otherwise)
Leo spent on average almost exactly one third of each game with Arsene
~44% of damage came from Arsene
Number of kills from Arsene: 27
Number of kills without Arsene: 11
~71% of kills came from Arsene
Average kill percent with Arsene (removing highest and lowest two): ~104%
Average kill percent without Arsene (removing highest and lowest one): ~135%
-Most damage done in one Arsene: 130% (beginning of game 3 vs Umeki)
-Second most damage done in one Arsene: 129% (end of game 5 vs Marss, in spite of mid-Arsene KO)
-Earliest kill with Arsene: 46% (fsmash on Marss, game 3)
-Second earliest kill with Arsene: 69% (end of game 5 vs Marss)
-Earliest kill without Arsene: 98% (fsmash on Marss, game 2)
-Second earliest kill without Arsene: 111% (bair on Umeki, game 1)
Percent getting Arsene (on fresh stock):
Umeki:
G1: 70%, 54%, 64%
G2: 60%, 38%
G3: 43%
Samsora:
G1: 65%, 46%
G2: 64%
G3: 65%, 40%, 30%
G4: 64%, 45%
Marss:
G1: 87%, 52%, 38%
G2: 78%, 53%
G3: 70%, 72%
G4: 59%, 42%
G5: 63%, 56%
Tweek:
G1: 65%, 58%
G2: 98%, 77%, 44%
G3: 72%, 22%, 71%
Time spent with Arsene: (KO’d or end of game)
Umeki:
G1: 22s, 26s, (10s)
G2: 30s, 28s, 26s
G3: 29s, (16s)
Samsora:
G1: (15s), 20s, 18s
G2: 28s, 28s, (4s)
G3: 25s, 25s, (15s), (15s)
G4: 22s, 30s, (16s)
Marss:
G1: 28s, 19s, 29s
G2: 23s, 29s, (12s)
G3: 24s, (14s), 23s
G4: 27s, 28s, (15s)
G5: 28s, 28s, 20s, (20s)
Tweek:
G1: 30s, (2s)
G2: 19s, 29s, 28s
G3: 30s, 24s, 17s, (12s)
Time spent without Arsene:
Umeki:
G1: 30s, 77s, 81s
G2: 6s, 49s, 52s
G3: 9s, 47s,
Samsora:
G1: 13s, 28s, 37s, 18s
G2: 35s, 41s, 80s
G3: 31s, 48s, 50s, 13s
G4: 38s, 51s, 24s
Marss:
G1: 43s, 43s, 22s, 28s
G2: 32s, 68s, 26s
G3: 28s, 71s, 20s, 73s
G4: 48s, 48s, 38s
G5: 41s, 50s, 33s, 26s
Tweek:
G1: 51s, 52s
G2: 23s, 45s, 63s, 40s
G3: 33s, 30s, 24s, 43s
Damage dealt with Arsene:
Umeki:
G1: 60%, 16%, 42%
G2: 116%, 92%, 61%
G3: 130%, 40%
Samsora:
G1: 0%, 20%, 0%
G2: 51%, 86%, 30%
G3: 81%, 78%, 7%, 36%
G4: 22%, 107%, 52%
Marss:
G1: (43%), 18%, (50%),
G2: 46%, 69%, (41%)
G3: (64%), (40%), 18%
G4: (44%), (69%), (38%)
G5: 27%, (81%), 23%, (129%)
Tweek:
G1: (96%), (21%)
G2: 0%, (88%), (87%)
G3: (97%), (31%), 42%, (21%)
Damage dealt without Arsene:
Umeki:
G1: 20%, 90%, 91%,
G2: 4%, 64%, 102%
G3: 3%, 82%
Samsora:
G1: 21%, 55%, 43%, 30%
G2: 75%, 43%, 172%
G3: 45%, 70%, 89%, 12%
G4: 117%, 45%, 74%,
Marss:
G1: 72%, 98%, 14%, 37%
G2: 53%, 145%, 24%
G3: 10%, 82%, 0%, 90%
G4: 84%, 55%, 52%
G5: 62%, 48%, 9%, 0%
Tweek:
G1: 111%, 128%,
G2: 18%, 85%, 103%, 80%
G3: 92%, 39%, 43%, 52%
Average kill percents with Arsene:
Umeki:
G1: 88%
G2: 103%
G3: 116%, 90%
Samsora:
G1: 75%
G2: 152%
G3: 106%, 114%
G4: 108%, 108%
Marss:
G1: 90%, 128%,
G2: 116%
G3: 46%, 105%
G4: 93%, 102%, 99%
G5: 138%, 96%, 69%
Tweek:
G1: 80%, 132%
G2: 103%, 162%
G3: 107%, 94%
kill percents without Arsene:
Umeki:
G1: 111
G2: 184, 116
G3:
Samsora:
G1:
G2: 125, 149
G3: 146
G4: 152
Marss:
G1:
G2: 98, 121,
G3:
G4:
G5:
Tweek:
G1:
G2: 132
G3: 165
Here are some of the key takeaways:
-Mkleo had about one Arsene per stock and tended to get it at relatively low percents (mid-fifties).
-Because almost three quarters of Leo's kills were coming with Arsene and Arsene's average kill percent is very low (104%), it is safe to assume that Leo's Joker was in general killing at low percents (an assumption strengthened by the fact that non-Arsene's average kill percent was an also not-high 135%).
-Bearing these kill percents in mind, Leo's Joker was taking on average over half of the opponent's stock per Arsene.
-Because roughly just under half of the data points used for the 'average damage per Arsene' stat also contained a mid-Arsene KO, this also means that roughly just under half of all Arsenes were leading to ~50% in damage and a KO--when the Arsene didn't lead to a KO, it led to between 70-75% on average (i.e. over half of the opponent's stock).
-The most infuriating stats here are the highs--Arsenes that led to well over 100% of damage in mere seconds or were killing well before 100% (or both). In most of these cases we're talking very few losing interactions for the opponent.
-Arsene-less Joker is no joke--I expected the majority of damage to come from Arsene--turns out 55% of damage comes from non-Arsene Joker (although, of course, two thirds of every game were being spent without Arsene). Non-Arsene Joker has some extremely potent low percent combos and excellent edgeguarding as well--and the average kill percent (135) isn't low at all, even if only ~30% of kills came without Arsene.
Anyways, this post is really meant more to be a comment on Arsene rather than Joker as a whole--that said, Joker is the most obvious top tier I've seen yet. The whole "it's just leo" argument will last (but still be bull) for just as long as no other top players are playing him. Which will last, like, maybe a month or two max.
For a tl;dr we can watch Marss lose two stocks in just under twenty seconds from ~2-4 losing neutral interactions depending on your definition:
Great post! I would only contest your claim that arsene has no downsides as a limit mechanic. Leo's Joker looks incredible because he's not losing neutral. Outside of increased hitboxes and side-b, which does become amazing, joker's neutral remains more or less the same, and if he keeps losing neutral, arsene goes away fast (joker's combo food). Losing arsene without actually doing work with him makes it feel like Joker's stock was wasted, since you're likely to lose it before you get him back. That is something that smash 4 cloud had much better.
Arsene will look broken if the joker player can keep outplaying the opponent, and useless if it's the other way around.
Don't get me wrong, I definitely understand the temptation to compare limit to Arsene--I just think that this leads to people having the wrong idea about Arsene. There's something to be gained from comparing Arsene to limit, though. When Joker was released, I saw several posts in various places about how with Arsene, Sakurai had 'fixed everything wrong with limit'--you can't just charge it (directly), it has a time limit, etc etc.
Now the smart bomb sized hitbox of Tetrakarn just feels like a footnote to the ridiculousness. We're talking about drastic buffs to the entirety of Joker's moveset with zero strings attached--unlike with Aura, there's no guarantee that Joker is at or past mid percents, let alone anywhere near kill percent, and at least the startup on Lucario's moves seems to have been somewhat taken into account--unlike limit, there's no one-use mechanic that can be forced in an edgeguard and no risk of missing and becoming a gimpable character--even with KO punch, one of the least justifiable mechanics in the game, it at least only applies to one move on a character that can't jump--and has a one-use mechanic.
With Arsene, there's nothing. Even if Arsene were simply just entering into the realms of S4 limit comparison, we'd be reaching something borderline problematic. This is well past that--with a standard Arsene interaction, you're either losing over half of your stock or getting KO'd--one or two losing interactions past that and you're getting an entire stock erased--one or two winning interactions instead and you should count yourself lucky and get ready for the next round. When the only identifiable weakness with it is its 20+ frame intangible startup recovery that covers a full veritcal length from the bottom blastzone, you know something is wrong. Arsene fixed nothing about limit--even if the limit speed buffs subtly improved S4 Cloud combos, there's nothing remotely subtle about Arsene--it's designed so that Joker can lay down a pile of bull, and you're forced to deal with it (or try your best not to deal with it) for however long it lasts.
Here's a fun Arsene-limit comparison--Limit blade beam does 22%, comes out on frame 16, kills at late percents, and expends Cloud's limit. Arsene side b deals 20%, comes out on frame 16, kills at late(r) percents, and can be spammed on any poor camping soul. So you're supposed to camp out Arsene? As a matter of fact, yes, or so it seems--because even though it's obviously not foolproof, what else are you supposed to do? There's one other option--hit the Joker and just don't lose any interactions--so all the top players have to do is body Leo. It's that easy.
To outline how not subtle this really is, we can look at actual numbers--I went through and looked at four of Leo's sets (fifteen games total) from Momocon and recorded some data. Sets used were vs. Umeki, Samsora, Marss, and Tweek (WF, wanted to do GF as well, but this stuff was taking too long for my random video game hobby [even if it is summer]):
Total damage dealt with Arsene: 2411%
Total damage dealt without Arsene: 3033%
Total time with Arsene: 1006s
Total time without Arsene: 2000s (yes, exactly 2000 lol)
Average time with Arsene (out of 30s, excluding KO’d/end of game): ~26.5s
Average percent getting Arsene (on a fresh stock): 58%
Average number of Arsenes per game: 3.03
Average damage per Arsene (dps*average Arsene length): ~64% -(note: roughly half of the data points used for this number contained a KO by Joker where the opponent had a guaranteed ~5+ seconds of non-interaction with Joker--this number would be somewhere between 70 and 75% otherwise)
Leo spent on average almost exactly one third of each game with Arsene
~44% of total damage dealt came from Arsene
Number of kills from Arsene: 27
Number of kills without Arsene: 11
~71% of kills came from Arsene
Average kill percent with Arsene (removing highest and lowest two): ~104%
Average kill percent without Arsene (removing highest and lowest one): ~135%
-Most damage done in one Arsene: 130% (beginning of game 3 vs Umeki)
-Second most damage done in one Arsene: 129% (end of game 5 vs Marss, in spite of mid-Arsene KO)
-Earliest kill with Arsene: 46% (fsmash on Marss, game 3)
-Second earliest kill with Arsene: 69% (end of game 5 vs Marss)
-Earliest kill without Arsene: 98% (fsmash on Marss, game 2)
-Second earliest kill without Arsene: 111% (bair on Umeki, game 1)
Percent getting Arsene (on fresh stock):
Umeki:
G1: 70%, 54%, 64%
G2: 60%, 38%
G3: 43%
Samsora:
G1: 65%, 46%
G2: 64%
G3: 65%, 40%, 30%
G4: 64%, 45%
Marss:
G1: 87%, 52%, 38%
G2: 78%, 53%
G3: 70%, 72%
G4: 59%, 42%
G5: 63%, 56%
Tweek:
G1: 65%, 58%
G2: 98%, 77%, 44%
G3: 72%, 22%, 71%
Time spent with Arsene: (KO’d or end of game)
Umeki:
G1: 22s, 26s, (10s)
G2: 30s, 28s, 26s
G3: 29s, (16s)
Samsora:
G1: (15s), 20s, 18s
G2: 28s, 28s, (4s)
G3: 25s, 25s, (15s), (15s)
G4: 22s, 30s, (16s)
Marss:
G1: 28s, 19s, 29s
G2: 23s, 29s, (12s)
G3: 24s, (14s), 23s
G4: 27s, 28s, (15s)
G5: 28s, 28s, 20s, (20s)
Tweek:
G1: 30s, (2s)
G2: 19s, 29s, 28s
G3: 30s, 24s, 17s, (12s)
Time spent without Arsene:
Umeki:
G1: 30s, 77s, 81s
G2: 6s, 49s, 52s
G3: 9s, 47s,
Samsora:
G1: 13s, 28s, 37s, 18s
G2: 35s, 41s, 80s
G3: 31s, 48s, 50s, 13s
G4: 38s, 51s, 24s
Marss:
G1: 43s, 43s, 22s, 28s
G2: 32s, 68s, 26s
G3: 28s, 71s, 20s, 73s
G4: 48s, 48s, 38s
G5: 41s, 50s, 33s, 26s
Tweek:
G1: 51s, 52s
G2: 23s, 45s, 63s, 40s
G3: 33s, 30s, 24s, 43s
Damage dealt with Arsene:
Umeki:
G1: 60%, 16%, 42%
G2: 116%, 92%, 61%
G3: 130%, 40%
Samsora:
G1: 0%, 20%, 0%
G2: 51%, 86%, 30%
G3: 81%, 78%, 7%, 36%
G4: 22%, 107%, 52%
Marss:
G1: (43%), 18%, (50%),
G2: 46%, 69%, (41%)
G3: (64%), (40%), 18%
G4: (44%), (69%), (38%)
G5: 27%, (81%), 23%, (129%)
Tweek:
G1: (96%), (21%)
G2: 0%, (88%), (87%)
G3: (97%), (31%), 42%, (21%)
Damage dealt without Arsene:
Umeki:
G1: 20%, 90%, 91%,
G2: 4%, 64%, 102%
G3: 3%, 82%
Samsora:
G1: 21%, 55%, 43%, 30%
G2: 75%, 43%, 172%
G3: 45%, 70%, 89%, 12%
G4: 117%, 45%, 74%,
Marss:
G1: 72%, 98%, 14%, 37%
G2: 53%, 145%, 24%
G3: 10%, 82%, 0%, 90%
G4: 84%, 55%, 52%
G5: 62%, 48%, 9%, 0%
Tweek:
G1: 111%, 128%,
G2: 18%, 85%, 103%, 80%
G3: 92%, 39%, 43%, 52%
Average kill percents with Arsene:
Umeki:
G1: 88%
G2: 103%
G3: 116%, 90%
Samsora:
G1: 75%
G2: 152%
G3: 106%, 114%
G4: 108%, 108%
Marss:
G1: 90%, 128%,
G2: 116%
G3: 46%, 105%
G4: 93%, 102%, 99%
G5: 138%, 96%, 69%
Tweek:
G1: 80%, 132%
G2: 103%, 162%
G3: 107%, 94%
kill percents without Arsene:
Umeki:
G1: 111
G2: 184, 116
G3:
Samsora:
G1:
G2: 125, 149
G3: 146
G4: 152
Marss:
G1:
G2: 98, 121,
G3:
G4:
G5:
Tweek:
G1:
G2: 132
G3: 165
Here are some of the key takeaways:
-Mkleo had about one Arsene per stock and tended to get it at relatively low percents (mid-fifties).
-Because almost three quarters of Leo's kills were coming with Arsene and Arsene's average kill percent is very low (104%), it is safe to assume that Leo's Joker was in general killing at low percents (an assumption strengthened by the fact that non-Arsene's average kill percent was an also not-high 135%).
-Bearing these kill percents in mind, Leo's Joker was taking on average over half of the opponent's stock per Arsene.
-Because roughly just under half of the data points used for the 'average damage per Arsene' stat also contained a mid-Arsene KO, this also means that roughly just under half of all Arsenes were leading to ~50% in damage and a KO--when the Arsene didn't lead to a KO, it led to between 70-75% on average (i.e. over half of the opponent's stock).
-The most infuriating stats here are the highs--Arsenes that led to well over 100% of damage in mere seconds or were killing well before 100% (or both). In most of these cases we're talking very few losing interactions for the opponent.
-Arsene-less Joker is no slouch--I expected the majority of damage to come from Arsene--turns out 55% of damage comes from non-Arsene Joker (although, of course, two thirds of every game were being spent without Arsene). Non-Arsene Joker has some extremely potent low percent combos and excellent edgeguarding as well--and the average kill percent (135) isn't low at all, even if only ~30% of kills came without Arsene.
Anyways, this post is really meant more to be a comment on Arsene rather than Joker as a whole--that said, Joker is the most obvious top tier I've seen yet. The whole "it's just leo" argument will last (but still be bull) for just as long as no other top players are playing him. Which will last, like, maybe a month or two max.
For a tl;dr we can watch Marss lose two stocks in just under twenty seconds from ~2-4 losing neutral interactions depending on your definition:
That's really good data but it needs to be viewed in the proper context. This is Joker data from one of the two best players in the world during a tournament he won. Of course the numbers look good; it's the single best sampling of Joker. It's important to remember Leo's Joker has had worse performances too (33rd at Umebura).
Marss' aggression in that set (and in general) proved to be his undoing. There were quite a few moments where he overexerted or just missed a grab that essentially led to his death. ZSS has the mobility, tools and zair to keep Arsene Joker away; he just chose not to use them because that's not his style.
Of course everyone will hold the perception that, just because Marss didn"t do it, that ZSS cannot avoid Arsene. Until 1) he does abstain from his tendencies and avoids Arsene, or 2) more successful ZSS players emerge and demonstrate how effective a defensive ZSS can be.
I would say that we should wait for more data on joker because one tournament can't give us the big picture, example : own MkLeo ike, people were really worried about that character to the point of wanting nerfs for him but now he isn't that relevant in the metagame, so please wait a bit for more data, the next tournaments should give us plenty.
know for a different topic it looks that Mr e is dropping lucina as this main, this means that lucina will only have mkleo(secondary) and protobaham as prominent players, do you think that what Mkleo said about her be truth?? like falling out of meta because linearity.
Edit: As for expectaions. I'm surprised they are releasing a balance patch this close to E3. I feel if they where going to release a new character during E3, they could of waited. This tells me that there may not be a DLC character released during E3. TBH I can't predicit what they are going to do here because of how close it is to E3. Its either going to be like 2 changes or the whole is thrown in the trash.
I wouldn't want to rule out anything in that regard. A prevalent theory right now - and what makes a lot of sense - is that they're pushing out a balance patch early because they may intend to shadowdrop the next DLC character, and getting the "balance change" part of the patch out early will alert people who may want to save their replays before that happens. The Smash World Championship is actually next weekend, so we could see our next character revealed and released as early as then.
I would say that we should wait for more data on joker because one tournament can't give us the big picture, example : own MkLeo ike, people were really worried about that character to the point of wanting nerfs for him but now he isn't that relevant in the metagame, so please wait a bit for more data, the next tournaments should give us plenty.
know for a different topic it looks that Mr e is dropping lucina as this main, this means that lucina will only have mkleo(secondary) and protobaham as prominent players, do you think that what Mkleo said about her be truth?? like falling out of meta because linearity.
Mr E is planning on dropping her because he says that there are some aspects on her that doesn't fit his playstyle. He thinks that she is great character capable of beating anyone, but he wants to go to a different upper tiered character that suits his playstyle more.
At heart on the real, I've always felt like a fox player (melee n smash 4) but Marth was always so sick to me I just wanted to use him and call it a day. I've always felt natural being a fast lunatic instead of a semi fast pristine esk player
— EMP FC | Mr. E - ON METAFY (@MreSSB) May 28, 2019
Chrom kinda feels to me like fox but with a sword, so from now on Im gonna rock with him.
Course im gonna still have my cina somewhere tho, we'll see whats up as time goes on
— EMP FC | Mr. E - ON METAFY (@MreSSB) May 28, 2019
Regardless of his decision on who to main, this is a blow to Lucina, as he provided some great (although inconsistent) results with her.
It, however, doesn't mean Leo is right about Lucina falling off due to linearity, due to Mr E dropping her due to different reasons than "linearity".
Definitely a rough loss for Lucina mains. I can't blame him too much for dropping her; the linearity of her playstyle means some matchups can end up kinda rough.
She's for sure a high/top character still though, don't misunderstand me lol.
Lucina still has ProtoBanham who's the closest thing to being the best "main" of the character (considering even they pretty much co-main the character with Inkling), but they don't travel out of Japan.
Dedicated Lucina mains at the top level are kind of a dying breed, and I suspect that it's because most players have started to finally get good at other characters. Salem, MKLeo and Nairo have all finally settled on tangible characters rather than cycling through multiple characters during a character crisis. Lucina will remain a potent secondary for most players and I suspect MKLeo will still use the character against characters like Pichu, but I wonder whether or not she's going to have a similar ripple effect as Smash 4 Cloud, where a large chunk of people only kept a pocket around for when they literally didn't have any other answer.
Hmm...correct me If i am wrong, But I do not think Lucina's playstyle really changed all that much between Smash 4 and Ultimate with some moves tools being a bit better and some a bit worse. Yet it is only recently that so many pro players having issues with her linearity and basic playstyle despite being technically "better" overall in Ultimate.
I wonder if these issues never came to the surface in Smash 4 due to Marth generally considered the better choice over Lucina with the execption of a few MU's and now Lucina is considered superior to Marth and is always picked over him now. Ironically Lucina is not ending up in the same position as in Smash 4 competitive scene. Mosty being used as a pocket character for MU's for they do not like fighting with their actual main
She's just not a deep character who can continually satisfy the best of the best for very long IMO. Shield Breaker reads can only get you so far in keeping peoples' interest. Marth has more depth but is still seen as a direct downgrade in most players' eyes. She's just a very basic character blessed with great frame data, that's also super easy to play. Basically the ideal secondary to your more-fun-main.
For Chrom, I can't tell if he has depth, or if Shoyo James just has miles of depth. I learn so much from him and I don't even play the character.
Lucina's falling out of the metagame because she actually has some serious weaknesses. Anyone with a good projectile and strong hustle attacks can make playing as her rough.
Smash 4 Cloud was a far better character than she is.
Yeah...I secondary Marth and good projectiles are just not fun to deal with. I didn't realize how oppressive some can be until you just don't have an answer for someone playing a serious zoning game. Cloud had multiple answers for it.
Or she isn't strong enough to make up for this boring design, if she was actually broken top players would still play her even if she was boring, if top players are picking other swordsmans is because they are on a similar powerlevel and be fun.
I dunno. As long Lucina is running around with her busted upb and bair in tandem with her other BS tools, I can't see her as anything less than top tier. The only MUs she actually loses are Wolf an DK, everyone else is either even or she beats.
I mean she's blatantly top tier just not to these players, fun. She's not broken so if your having fun with a character that's still top tier or even not that far off you'll be fine without her. Fun is definitely subjective and a human element added to the numbers and even when you have clear cut number ones (S4 Bayo, Melee Fox) or even broken characters(Brawl MK) not everyone will still use them and compete at a serious level, likely because their weren't fun to them or meshed with their playstyle and philosophies. I don't know about you but if I'm not having fun with a character and unless that character is just straight broken I'm not going to use them, boredom can lead to a weaker mentiality and make you play worse. Just using the best character for the sake of them being the best character just doesn't work for everyone, and that's okay.
I mean she's blatantly top tier just not to these players, fun. She's not broken so if your having fun with a character that's still top tier or even not that far off you'll be fine without her. Fun is definitely subjective and a human element added to the numbers and even when you have clear cut number ones (S4 Bayo, Melee Fox) or even broken characters(Brawl MK) not everyone will still use them and compete at a serious level, likely because their weren't fun to them or meshed with their playstyle and philosophies. I don't know about you but if I'm not having fun with a character and unless that character is just straight broken I'm not going to use them, boredom can lead to a weaker mentiality and make you play worse. Just using the best character for the sake of them being the best character just doesn't work for everyone, and that's okay.
They had the best results though. Lucina's results are nothing to write home about.
Also, Mr E likely dropped Lucina because he got 3-0ed by Umeki's , frequently fails to close stocks at a reasonable percent with her (I have seen many matches where the opponent lived up until 160%!) and generally Lucina isn't a character who can really dominate in any area.
Why is everyone in this thread blaming Mr E dropping Lucina due to her linearity, when I clearly said that he dropped her because some aspects of her doesn't fit his playstyle? For reference, here is his tweet saying that:
Also I don't think Lucina is bad or anything by any means. She's clearly good enough to win and beat any character. I just feel like there's some individual areas I excel in where as Lucina, I don't feel I can express that as much as I want to
— EMP FC | Mr. E - ON METAFY (@MreSSB) May 28, 2019
Why is everyone in this thread blaming Mr E dropping Lucina due to her linearity, when I clearly said that he dropped her because some aspects of her doesn't fit his playstyle? For reference, here is his tweet saying that:
Also I don't think Lucina is bad or anything by any means. She's clearly good enough to win and beat any character. I just feel like there's some individual areas I excel in where as Lucina, I don't feel I can express that as much as I want to
— EMP FC | Mr. E - ON METAFY (@MreSSB) May 28, 2019
Possibly because once ideas proliferate, it's very difficult to undo the damage when they turn out to be incorrect. That's been one of the biggest struggles in this thread in general, but please nobody think that's me saying it's bad overall. As for me, when I play Lucina most of my KOs are offstage. I typically don't fish for onstage kills unless I know I'm clearly a better player and I'm getting reads throughout the match already.
Why is everyone in this thread blaming Mr E dropping Lucina due to her linearity, when I clearly said that he dropped her because some aspects of her doesn't fit his playstyle? For reference, here is his tweet saying that:
Also I don't think Lucina is bad or anything by any means. She's clearly good enough to win and beat any character. I just feel like there's some individual areas I excel in where as Lucina, I don't feel I can express that as much as I want to
— EMP FC | Mr. E - ON METAFY (@MreSSB) May 28, 2019
Because people prefer to further their own agenda rather than use reading comprehension skills. He clearly says in another tweet that he feels like he should play like a fast paced lunatic. Lucina is obviously not that, never has been never will be. That's why he's looking at Chrom: he's the fastest playing sword character as you never worry about spacing beyond "try to keep it at maximum range" while in constant "go go go go go" mode.
Wanting to play like Melee Fox =/= dropping a character because "too linear". Wanting to play like Melee Fox = dropping a character because they aren't constantly rushing around the place applying constant fast pressure.
She's mostly boring from a spectator point of view, because her moves are so basic looking. Sword swing up, down, left right, etc. for just about all her moves. Shield Breaks can save face here and there but they don't pop up enough to make her well known as a flashy character. Kinda like Olimar in a way, just a little less campy.
I do however think solo maining Lucina could become draining after some time. Less so for dealing with rough matchups, more so with the general shallowness of the character. There's only so much you can do with a fundamentals-heavy, surface level character without that extra "oomph" underneath to keep someone interested in mastering for the long haul.
She's mostly boring from a spectator point of view, because her moves are so basic looking. Sword swing up, down, left right, etc. for just about all her moves. Shield Breaks can save face here and there but they don't pop up enough to make her well known as a flashy character. Kinda like Olimar in a way, just a little less campy.
I do however think solo maining Lucina could become draining after some time. Less so for dealing with rough matchups, more so with the general shallowness of the character. There's only so much you can do with a fundamentals-heavy, surface level character without that extra "oomph" underneath to keep someone interested in mastering for the long haul.
Possibly because once ideas proliferate, it's very difficult to undo the damage when they turn out to be incorrect. That's been one of the biggest struggles in this thread in general, but please nobody think that's me saying it's bad overall. As for me, when I play Lucina most of my KOs are offstage. I typically don't fish for onstage kills unless I know I'm clearly a better player and I'm getting reads throughout the match already.
That's also basically how tier lists work, especially when a character was always bad in previous installments.
Or how people conceived G&W because of his fAir because of ZeRo (who never played the character mind you) to give a more solid example.
But that's not limited to smash but to humanity as a whole. We try to look at things from our perspective and from the most simple way even when things contradict you.
And also that statement is way too superficial because it's a one-liner but it nonetheless goes into the correct direction of how humans think...
The impression I'm getting from this last page of posts is that Lucina is more or less Better Pit in terms of public perception; she has the sort of well-rounded toolkit that keeps her functional against everyone, but that same well-roundedness means she appeals to people who would rather minimize weaknesses than emphasize their strengths/preferences. I'd imagine the perception of her being "boring" comes from the latter sort of people who she doesn't scratch that itch for. If that's a majority view of her, it wouldn't surprise me if long term she ends up being more of an intermediary main/pocket secondary in the "this works, but it isn't me" sort of sense while people are still searching for/need an alternative counterpick alongside that one character that fits them better.
Please no. He's been able to get away fine with the last few nerfs but I'm worried that sooner or later they'll just all add up if they keep doing this.
I wish that people would stop using words like "linearity." What does that even mean?
Someone define it concretely for me, because I guarantee you that everyone using the word has a different sense of what it means from everyone else, and I further guarantee you that whatever meaning it actually is intended to convey on average doesn't have anything to do with the semantic concept of linearity at all.
She's mostly boring from a spectator point of view, because her moves are so basic looking. Sword swing up, down, left right, etc. for just about all her moves. Shield Breaks can save face here and there but they don't pop up enough to make her well known as a flashy character. Kinda like Olimar in a way, just a little less campy.
I do however think solo maining Lucina could become draining after some time. Less so for dealing with rough matchups, more so with the general shallowness of the character. There's only so much you can do with a fundamentals-heavy, surface level character without that extra "oomph" underneath to keep someone interested in mastering for the long haul.
As a competitive player, you never truly lose until you begin making decisions based off the crowd.
That's not a fabulous line of reasoning to call a character boring, imo, especially when a lot of people who spectate Smash ONLY spectate the game competitively and really don't know the finer nuances of what's ever happening.
However it a point is brought up on how much, or little MKLeo's success with Joker may be due to even pro players not knowing exactly how to play the MU yet. Also this is MKLeo who is insame no matter what character he plays. Not to say Joker is not good, he is high-tier at least easy
I know first impressions of characters can often be wrong but I still find it funny how in the first month people were saying how Joker was likely mid tier and couldn't see him as higher. Sure, you had some people saying high tier at most but its interesting to see how peoples opinions shift after just one or two tournaments..
In this case, it appears people are steadily thinking higher of the fighter.
I honestly dislike the way Joker is designed. I prefer for more characters to have their strengths and weaknesses built around a win condition. While for several characters in smash, their win conditions aren’t very clear without a lot of meta development and optimization, Joker seems to be kinda obvious. In order to win, Joker needs get Arsene. Makes sense.
My problem though is that Joker never needs to really earn this win condition. Guessing right in a frame trap with rebellion counter fills his gauge A LOT. He builds up meter over time, gains it from doing damage, and gains meter faster when in a stock deficit. I wish there was more thought or resource management involved with Joker’s persona mechanic. It’d be nice if the gauge decreased slightly for ever special use, to keep him from spamming his side B.
I honestly dislike the way Joker is designed. I prefer for more characters to have their strengths and weaknesses built around a win condition. While for several characters in smash, their win conditions aren’t very clear without a lot of meta development and optimization, Joker seems to be kinda obvious. In order to win, Joker needs get Arsene. Makes sense.
My problem though is that Joker never needs to really earn this win condition. Guessing right in a frame trap with rebellion counter fills his gauge A LOT. He builds up meter over time, gains it from doing damage, and gains meter faster when in a stock deficit. I wish there was more thought or resource management involved with Joker’s persona mechanic. It’d be nice if the gauge decreased slightly for ever special use, to keep him from spamming his side B.
In that line of thought, some adjustments to just the gauge itself may be all he might need down the line, if it does turn out that Arsene becomes too centralizing to his meta in the future.
I honestly dislike the way Joker is designed. I prefer for more characters to have their strengths and weaknesses built around a win condition. While for several characters in smash, their win conditions aren’t very clear without a lot of meta development and optimization, Joker seems to be kinda obvious. In order to win, Joker needs get Arsene. Makes sense.
My problem though is that Joker never needs to really earn this win condition. Guessing right in a frame trap with rebellion counter fills his gauge A LOT. He builds up meter over time, gains it from doing damage, and gains meter faster when in a stock deficit. I wish there was more thought or resource management involved with Joker’s persona mechanic. It’d be nice if the gauge decreased slightly for ever special use, to keep him from spamming his side B.
Being at a deficit is the only time Joker actually gets passive buildup (to be fair, even just being at a higher percent is enough), and I'm going to assume you meant he gains it from taking damage instead of the other way around, which gets zilch. Don't really understand this ''win condition'' thought process in Ultimate, seems more like a Smash 4 thing where most characters relied on a small handful of amazing tools propping up a bunch of mediocre, and for half of the the condition was ''get a grab''.
When you look at someone like Lucario, it would seem like his ''win condition'' is to be at high damage, but you don't see people going to get intentionally hurt to make that happen in serious games, and that's because it's perfectly possible to fight and win with low percent Lucario, just like how Joker can go an entire game without getting hit and never gain Arsene as a result, but still prevail because he is not without a gameplan or killing options without Arsene. And unlike Cloud's Limit, Joker does not get any significant mobility buffs with Arsene, so outside the extra range on Eigaon, the recovery and the addition of a reflector for some characters, playing against it isn't too different from facing normal Joker. Side B also loses to pretty much any attack due to the very low damage of the initial hit, which also makes shielding it a non-issue.
Joker has amazing combo game and real, actual kill options without Arsene ever being a thing. Joker is a mid tier character without Arsene and a top tier character with him, either way he is still viable and can still get results.
Arsene isn't a win condition.. Arsene is a steroid, a power-up if you will. People would likely be shocked just how early Joker can kill you without Arsene ever coming out at all, he's amazing at deep edge guarding / gimps and his FSmash has quite a bit of latent kill power on its own.
Also if you hit someone with DSmash at the ledge, Arsene or not, it's usually always over regardless of their % due to the launch angle.
, frequently fails to close stocks at a reasonable percent with her (I have seen many matches where the opponent lived up until 160%!) and generally Lucina isn't a character who can really dominate in any area.
