Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Arthur97]

I don't want it to, but I imagine a patch giving Marth the consistency something like 4 might put Lucina back on the backburner. I do not look forward to this day, but I imagine his tippers will get some work.

Of course, you think they'd fix the Falcon/Dark Dive glitch by now.

 

[Lacrimosa]

where'd you get that 5% number from ? did yyou just pull it out your ***?

anyways i won't beat on the point too much but marth gets combos off of sour spots just like roy does. So yeah I really don't see the reason to rate Marth so lowly. Anyways as long as Marth can't turn sourspots into sweet spots he's allowed to have legitimate kill confirms at percentages lucina could only dream to kill at. But anyways cool story bro.

Hey, I wrote that this number is made up. You should read the rest of a post as well, even the parts after with what you disagree.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Hey, I wrote that this number is made up. You should read the rest of a post as well, even the parts after with what you disagree.

read your entire post went back and re read it. Trying to figure out how my post doesn't address the sour spot issues you brought up. but i could be wrong.

 

[ProfessorVincent]

Hey, I wrote that this number is made up. You should read the rest of a post as well, even the parts after with what you disagree.

Your made up number is the center of your argument, though. The fact you acknowledge it's BS doesn't make it not BS. If I replace your ludicrous made up 5% tipper rate with an equally ludicrous 95%, the whole argument shifts completely the other direction.

I mean, I get the talk of "tippers are harder to land in Ultimate because increased movement speed and decreased endlag", but who the hell is hitting tippers only 5% of the time? Even if you have just bought the game, picked random and got Marth, and are incredibly unlucky, you're still gonna hit tippers more than 1/20 times.

Edit: maybe figuring out what a reasonable estimation for this number would be is actually a good idea, though. How often do you guys think a high level Marth, this early in the meta, is landing tippers? What do you imagine that number could become as the character is optimized? Finally, how often should Marth be hitting tippers to achieve parity with Lucina regarding damage output? (we all know damage output is not the only factor that differentiates the two characters, but it's the one we can more objectively put a number to).

 

[Lacrimosa]

Your made up number is the center of your argument, though. The fact you acknowledge it's BS doesn't make it not BS. If I replace your ludicrous made up 5% tipper rate with an equally ludicrous 95%, the whole argument shifts completely the other direction.

I mean, I get the talk of "tippers are harder to land in Ultimate because increased movement speed and decreased endlag", but who the hell is hitting tippers only 5% of the time? Even if you have just bought the game, picked random and got Marth, and are incredibly unlucky, you're still gonna hit tippers more than 1/20 times.

Edit: maybe figuring out what a reasonable estimation for this number would be is actually a good idea, though. How often do you guys think a high level Marth, this early in the meta, is landing tippers? What do you imagine that number could become as the character is optimized? Finally, how often should Marth be hitting tippers to achieve parity with Lucina regarding damage output? (we all know damage output is not the only factor that differentiates the two characters, but it's the one we can more objectively put a number to).

It's fairly easy to understand that tipper is inconsistent at best.
Nothing else is the argument and the reason why it's inconsistent is also given.

But if someone really wants to collect this data then it'd be good(?).

 

[Terotrous]

IMO Roy is the best FE character, easily.

I don't think it could ever be "easily", since I see no way Lucina could ever not be top tier. She has incredible hitboxes, frame data, speed, kill power, edgeguarding, one of the best OOS options in the entire game, etc. Roy might also be top tier, but unless Lucina gets some kind of nerf I can't see anyone being significantly above her.

Speaking of, did Lucina gain more damage compared to Marth relative to Smash 4? In that game, it was usually considered to be the case that Marth players should play both characters and switch out for certain matchups, not the "Lucina is just straight better all the time" situation it is now. If so, reverting her back to her previous level of power seems sensible, Marth should feel significantly more powerful when he hits tippers. In general, I feel like Lucina should probably not have very good kill power at all to make up for how absurdly solid she is in every other way, she definitely has the tools to consistently win neutral and close out stocks that way.

 

[Lavani]

Speaking of, did Lucina gain more damage compared to Marth relative to Smash 4?

Both characters' damage values are unchanged from the previous game.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I don't want it to, but I imagine a patch giving Marth the consistency something like 4 might put Lucina back on the backburner. I do not look forward to this day, but I imagine his tippers will get some work.

If they don't nerf Lucina she should still be fine. Dropping her to mid tier or something because Marth is better in that scenario would be silly.

Speaking of, did Lucina gain more damage compared to Marth relative to Smash 4?

As far as I'm aware, she mostly got direct nerf from Smash 4, the main reason she's better is because of universal engine changes (giving her smashes and tilts out of run, even better juggling, and better edgeguarding). Her jab is worse, her side-B is worse, f-smash kills a bit later, down-smash one frame slower (but sends at a better angle), her aerials are slightly better though (especially considering reduced landing lag), up-B has 4 more frames of landing lag, counter is 5 frames laggier too, so overall she'd arguably be worse if it weren't for the universal changes. Oh, and her up-throw kills much later now.

These universal changes helped her a lot and her worst Smash 4 MUs also got nerfed, so overall she's better than in Smash 4. She's pretty similar to her Smash 4 self though,

 

[MH-Jin]

I don't think it could ever be "easily", since I see no way Lucina could ever not be top tier. She has incredible hitboxes, frame data, speed, kill power, edgeguarding, one of the best OOS options in the entire game, etc. Roy might also be top tier, but unless Lucina gets some kind of nerf I can't see anyone being significantly above her.

Speaking of, did Lucina gain more damage compared to Marth relative to Smash 4? In that game, it was usually considered to be the case that Marth players should play both characters and switch out for certain matchups, not the "Lucina is just straight better all the time" situation it is now. If so, reverting her back to her previous level of power seems sensible, Marth should feel significantly more powerful when he hits tippers. In general, I feel like Lucina should probably not have very good kill power at all to make up for how absurdly solid she is in every other way, she definitely has the tools to consistently win neutral and close out stocks that way.

There has been slight increases to Lucina's damage on some of her aerials in the transition to Smash ultimate, however these range from 1%-2% difference. Also, there is the 1.2x damage modifier when playing 1v1.

Lucina was still argued to be possibly top tier in Smash 4 and basically even with Marth or 1 slot lower. Even if you reverted Lucina to Smash 4 levels, it would still be very similar to what we have right now and doesn't change the current game plan that she has now as it is overall the same as Smsah 4.

Also Lucina does not have great kill power in the neutral, while she has a good neutral, a lot of her earlier kills require either a read, being in the advantage state or an edgeguard. Her hits off neutral wins such as nair 1&2, fair and retreating ftilt will not kill until way later percents such as 160. Also Marcina still have swordsman(woman?) frame data, so they are actually quite prone to whiff punishes off single moves on the ground and in close quarters.

I don't think there's anything really wrong with Lucina right now, she's a fundamentals heavy character and is quite punishable based on the endlag of her moves. I think Marth actually needs to be explored more or buffed to be more inline with Lucina rather than her being nerfed. One of the main reasons she's doing well now is because a lot of her worst matchups in Smash 4 were nerfed such as Sheik and Sonic.

 

[N8than]

Third- DAD, a blessing giving him a "third" jump. While it can be covered by staying at the ledge and placing a well timed hitbox as the intangiblity wears off but before the Ness grabs stage. A: Ness can reduce the amount of time he is vulnerable by using DAD farther away from stage. B: Your opponent has to stay on stage to cover this, meaning they aren't going off stage to edge guard which opens up the option of using PKT2 much more safely. Very few characters can simultaneously cover DAD to ledge and PKT2. If Ness has begun PKT2 and your not already off stage most characters can't safely stop it.

wait what does DAD stand for?

 

[Frihetsanka]

wait what does DAD stand for?

Directional Air Dodge.

 

[MH-Jin]

wait what does DAD stand for?

Directional Air Dodge

 

[Rizen]

wait what does DAD stand for?

Directional air dodge.

Edit ninja-ed twice.

I'd rather see Lucina nerfed than Marth buffed. He doesn't need buffs. Not that there's an imperative to do anything to either of them.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'd rather see Lucina nerfed than Marth buffed.

Does she really need nerfs though? She doesn't really beat any of the top tiers and she doesn't have that many +2 MUs, she seems fairly fine overall, lots of even MUs, lots of +1 MUs vs lower tiers, which isn't bad (they're lower tiers for a reason). She's not nearly as good as Smash 4 Cloud or even Smash 4 Diddy Kong, so why the rush to nerf?

 

[DungeonMaster]

Swords and basic disjoints are always strong in the early meta, and then they drop off considerably as the game progresses when combos, 50/50s and kill confirms become dominant. This is precisely what we saw in smash 4 and ultimate will be no exception to the trend.
Lucy and Marth are fine, they have been sliding, like Ike, and will continue to slide into mid-tier where they will remain a decent character to play.
Probably not main if you want to win tournaments in 6 months to a year's time, but a solid generalist secondary to back up a late meta character main.

 

[Lavani]

For those interested, I threw together a sheet comparing the relative damage of Chrom/Lucina's attacks compared against the sweet/sourspots of Roy/Marth. There's also differences in angles/knockback/animations between the characters so it doesn't tell the entire story (for example, Chrom nair has a shallower angle, higher base knockback, and no set weight compared to Roy's), but the damage distributions are interesting to look at. Notably Chrom has a much more favorable damage distribution compared to Lucina, being above Roy's average on nearly every attack except the first hit of dsmash and nair.

 

[Terotrous]

Does she really need nerfs though? She doesn't really beat any of the top tiers and she doesn't have that many +2 MUs, she seems fairly fine overall, lots of even MUs, lots of +1 MUs vs lower tiers, which isn't bad (they're lower tiers for a reason). She's not nearly as good as Smash 4 Cloud or even Smash 4 Diddy Kong, so why the rush to nerf?

I feel like she tends to act as a gatekeeper to most non-top tier characters. There are many characters in the game I can play vs most of the cast and they feel fine, but then you go up against Lucina and it's like "oh right this is why this character doesn't work, she just does tilts and fairs and all of my buttons just straight lose".

A good example of this is Ivysaur IMO. When you play against a character who doesn't have a sword, it's like "okay, nair works fine, it combos into stuff, the bair nerf isn't that bad" and then you go up against Lucina and it's like "none of my options are viable except razor leaf". I guess maybe if you have godlike parries or something you can punish Fairs but that goes for any character.

This is a big part of why I picked up Samus, the Samus vs Lucina (or other swordies) matchup feels reasonable because Charge Shot whiff punishes them super hard and you can also space out some of their buttons with grab. With many other characters though it feels like a severely uphill battle.

Also, I think the real reason to nerf is because she makes Marth feel irrelevant, which is obviously just bad design. Clearly it should be a matchup-by-matchup basis who's better between the two.

 

[Arthur97]

If they don't nerf Lucina she should still be fine. Dropping her to mid tier or something because Marth is better in that scenario would be silly.

As far as I'm aware, she mostly got direct nerf from Smash 4, the main reason she's better is because of universal engine changes (giving her smashes and tilts out of run, even better juggling, and better edgeguarding). Her jab is worse, her side-B is worse, f-smash kills a bit later, down-smash one frame slower (but sends at a better angle), her aerials are slightly better though (especially considering reduced landing lag), up-B has 4 more frames of landing lag, counter is 5 frames laggier too, so overall she'd arguably be worse if it weren't for the universal changes. Oh, and her up-throw kills much later now.

These universal changes helped her a lot and her worst Smash 4 MUs also got nerfed, so overall she's better than in Smash 4. She's pretty similar to her Smash 4 self though,

The real issue would be to see her fall off in use in such an eventuality.

Directional air dodge.

Edit ninja-ed twice.

I'd rather see Lucina nerfed than Marth buffed. He doesn't need buffs. Not that there's an imperative to do anything to either of them.

Why? Marth seems to be the one who just falls short with his tippers. Nerf Lucina and then they just both end up mediocre. Besides, good luck having Nintendo change one without the other unless it involves tippers.

 

[Terotrous]

Why? Marth seems to be the one who just falls short with his tippers. Nerf Lucina and then they just both end up mediocre. Besides, good luck having Nintendo change one without the other unless it involves tippers.

By mediocre I assume you mean "still high tier" because I haven't seen anyone who considers Marth to be outright bad, just not as good as Lucina.

Also, in general I don't support buffing characters up to the level of the top tiers, generally characters become top tier because everything is good about them and they have no weaknesses, which doesn't tend to make for an interesting metagame if everyone is like that. You generally want everyone to be around the "high tier" level of strength, where they have strong points and a good gameplan but you still have options against them.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I feel like she tends to act as a gatekeeper to most non-top tier characters. There are many characters in the game I can play vs most of the cast and they feel fine, but then you go up against Lucina and it's like "oh right this is why this character doesn't work, she just does tilts and fairs and all of my buttons just straight lose".

A good example of this is Ivysaur IMO. When you play against a character who doesn't have a sword, it's like "okay, nair works fine, it combos into stuff, the bair nerf isn't that bad" and then you go up against Lucina and it's like "none of my options are viable except razor leaf". I guess maybe if you have godlike parries or something you can punish Fairs but that goes for any character.

This is a big part of why I picked up Samus, the Samus vs Lucina (or other swordies) matchup feels reasonable because Charge Shot whiff punishes them super hard and you can also space out some of their buttons with grab. With many other characters though it feels like a severely uphill battle.

Also, I think the real reason to nerf is because she makes Marth feel irrelevant, which is obviously just bad design. Clearly it should be a matchup-by-matchup basis who's better between the two.

Same. That also why I think the MU Zelda against these swordies is much more even than most think. You can stuff their aerial approaches when you react to the jump and charg a phantom. They either have to go back or have to do something risky. But phantom can cover a lot of options. DownB is really important here. I think the 3-2 for Mr. E against Mystearica at Pound is only one game, yes. But it can act as an indicator of how this MU actually looks.
I also think that Samus that very well against Lucina, as you indicated.

 

[ProfessorVincent]

For those interested, I threw together a sheet comparing the relative damage of Chrom/Lucina's attacks compared against the sweet/sourspots of Roy/Marth. There's also differences in angles/knockback/animations between the characters so it doesn't tell the entire story (for example, Chrom nair has a shallower angle, higher base knockback, and no set weight compared to Roy's), but the damage distributions are interesting to look at. Notably Chrom has a much more favorable damage distribution compared to Lucina, being above Roy's average on nearly every attack except the first hit of dsmash and nair.

I'm super interested in this, but am having a hard time understanding what the math behind the "relative percent" is. Could you please break it down? Thanks!

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I'd rather see Lucina nerfed than Marth buffed. He doesn't need buffs. Not that there's an imperative to do anything to either of them.

I'm with you on that one.
Nerf Lucy to Marth's level.

Normally I'm more of a buff the weak then nerf the strong kind of guy.
But IMO they're not fun to fight and I personally believe that Marthcina in general have been top-tier long enough.
This game's top dogs still can do with a few slaps on the wrists, even if the best characters aren't as crazy as the previous game's head honchos.

Besides, people have overblown how "bad" Marth is Ultimate. He's still an easy High Tier with a solid kit and game-plan.

 

[Lavani]

I'm super interested in this, but am having a hard time understanding what the math behind the "relative percent" is. Could you please break it down? Thanks!

It's a comparison of 's damage against sweet/sourspots. Some examples:

Dtilt does 10% sweet, 7% sour (average 8.5%). dtilt does 8.5%, so it's 50% of the way between Marth's sweet and sour spots.
have the same damage on the multihits of usmash. Since Chrom is equal to Roy's sweetspot, the relative % is 100.
dair does 15% sweet, 10% sour (average 12.5). dair does 14.25% sweet, 11.875% sour (average 13.07). Chrom's average is 61.25% of the way between Roy's sweet/sourspots.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Also, in general I don't support buffing characters up to the level of the top tiers, generally characters become top tier because everything is good about them and they have no weaknesses, which doesn't tend to make for an interesting metagame if everyone is like that. You generally want everyone to be around the "high tier" level of strength, where they have strong points and a good gameplan but you still have options against them.

I agree, it'd be cool if everyone's power level was around & .

 

[MH-Jin]

I genuinely don't understand the sentiment of Marcina or x character has been top tier long enough. If you have a character with a good disjoint, decent frame data, good mobility and are in a game where edgeguarding and neutral are super important, it's going to be difficult for that character to not be high tier/top tier. It's a combination of the archetype and the game engine.

Personally, I think it's more fun to have top tiers battling each other because they have access to a variety of options that they're using to combat each other and those in the lower tiers, however this is strictly a personal preference. That's why I loved watching other top tiers fight Smash 4 , or seeing how they adapted to the tools that they had.

Also I would advise for the future that personal anecdotes aren't the best way to measure on how to battle a character nor the idea of "fun" behind fighting a character as that is completely subjective and there may be different ways to play a matchup compared to the way you are playing it at the time. It would be best to analyze top level play in terms of matchups, as those mold and change as the meta develops along with better decision making being enacted. This may be somewhat "elitist" on my side, but I always think it's better to measure matchups objectively toolkit to toolkit,, known setups at the time along with taking top player skill into consideration.

 

[Arthur97]

By mediocre I assume you mean "still high tier" because I haven't seen anyone who considers Marth to be outright bad, just not as good as Lucina.

Also, in general I don't support buffing characters up to the level of the top tiers, generally characters become top tier because everything is good about them and they have no weaknesses, which doesn't tend to make for an interesting metagame if everyone is like that. You generally want everyone to be around the "high tier" level of strength, where they have strong points and a good gameplan but you still have options against them.

It's not like Lucina is perfect. Besides, I'm more of a buff rather than nerf guy unless something is just outright broken. Seeing as Ultimate lacks a broken fighter (yet, DLC isn't done), I'd rather they buffed. Mostly the worse characters. I'd be fine if they left high and above alone.

Besides, there are much more egregious top tiers, so why nerf the fundamentals one that is probably one the weaker end of top tier?

 

[Sean²]

I'm with you on that one.
Nerf Lucy to Marth's level.

Normally I'm more of a buff the weak then nerf the strong kind of guy.
But IMO they're not fun to fight and I personally believe that Marthcina in general have been top-tier long enough.
This game's top dogs still can do with a few slaps on the wrists, even if the best characters aren't as crazy as the previous game's head honchos.

Besides, people have overblown how "bad" Marth is Ultimate. He's still an easy High Tier with a solid kit and game-plan.

"Top tier long enough" doesn't apply to Marth-types. Those characters are inherently good in a 1v1 environment unless you just make them too slow (e.g. beginning of Smash 4 Marth) to keep up with the faster characters/attacks. Fast disjoints that float that far outside the hurtbox of the character almost can't be bad, unless you give them Sheik level damage output and knockback. I'm not one for slowing them back down again, as they aren't obvious #1 contenders. If anything gets nerfed, they need to be given a fully working side B in its place for QOL buffs. Sick of people popping out of that move at like 10% onward.

 

[Lacrimosa]

It's not like Lucina is perfect. Besides, I'm more of a buff rather than nerf guy unless something is just outright broken. Seeing as Ultimate lacks a broken fighter (yet, DLC isn't done), I'd rather they buffed. Mostly the worse characters. I'd be fine if they left high and above alone.

Besides, there are much more egregious top tiers, so why nerf the fundamentals one that is probably one the weaker end of top tier?

Yeah, the only think that could be considered broken is Olimar's uSmash. But I still believe that players are figuring Olimar out, GOML may have been the start.
It's way too early to say that. And if something like that takes so much time, I doubt there's something broken. Meta Knight at Brawl and Bayo in Sm4sh were considered broken really fast.

 

[Rizen]

I'd rather see Lucina nerfed than Marth buffed. He doesn't need buffs. Not that there's an imperative to do anything to either of them.

I'd didn't actually say Lucina needs nerfs but rather in the scenario of Marth and Lucina being balanced it's better to nerf Lucina, a top tier, than buff Marth, a high tier. Marth's a strong character already; he's just outshined by his clone.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I ain't always a big fan of ESAM, but I must say I was a pretty big fan of this video and think people should watch it. (If someone has posted this already I apologize, but this is a thicc thread and combing through it all is, eh.. plus I haven't seen it posted here in the last week so I figure it hasn't been.)

 

[Lancerech]

Speaking of the Marth Side Bs, I wonder what particular reason there is that Roy's is so much more consistent. I'm curious to know more about the move's data since it seems much better than the other three.

 

[Lavani]

Speaking of the Marth Side Bs, I wonder what particular reason there is that Roy's is so much more consistent. I'm curious to know more about the move's data since it seems much better than the other three.

Roy has lower base knockback on the third hit of sideB than the other FE characters. Sour tippers also mean he won't launch characters at the edge of his range away before he gets to the finisher.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I agree, it'd be cool if everyone's power level was around & .

Smash 4: "Would be cool if everyone were around Marth/Lucina levels". Top tiers gets nerfed to be around Lucina levels, and now I see some people saying "Nerf top tiers!". Let's chill with the calls for nerfs, Lucina isn't that much better than in 4, it's more about other characters being worse. The current top tiers aren't that oppressive, at least not yet.

Many of the current top tiers are arguably weaker than Smash 4 Mario, and I don't think anyone is as strong as Smash 4 Cloud. As for Ultimate, Mario is pretty balanced (probably high tier), Cloud could use some slight buffs I suppose but he's somewhat decent. Maybe double the limit duration (from 15 to 30) and see what happens (still worse than in 4 since it had no timer back then). Also add the following quality of life change: The meter slowly drains when fully charged in order to show how much time is left before it runs out.

But IMO they're not fun to fight and I personally believe that Marthcina in general have been top-tier long enough.

Many people think Lucina is one of the most fun characters to fight, actually. I think she's fun to fight since she's so straightforward, not very gimmicky at all. In general I'd rather fight straightforward top tiers and high tiers than gimmicky low tiers and mid tiers, but that's a personal preference. Many people I've talked to share this sentiment, and I think in general the top tiers of this game are less gimmicky than in Smash 4, so that's cool.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Speaking of the Marth Side Bs, I wonder what particular reason there is that Roy's is so much more consistent. I'm curious to know more about the move's data since it seems much better than the other three.

People tend to get pushed out of Side-B before it finishes, Roy's is unique in that one of the hits isn't as strong as other FE characters and he has the ideal sort of sweetspot for this kind of move. The combination of the two means that Roy's Side-B usually always gets you a nice reward when landed.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

I think people aren't looking a the big picture when talking about game balance, Lucina is not the only easy top tier character in this gamr, with wolf existing do you believe that lucina mains will jump on marth if she is nerfed?? That doesn't make sense why play marth who is still difficult to play but high tier when you can play Roy, chrom and ike, or wolf the only lucina main is Mr e and a Japanese player protobaham everyone else use her as a secondary for a reason, adjustment to make a character less braindead or less frustating to fight can happen, but the thing is that lucina already has that in marth but as you can see he isn't still there so a adjustment for marth can happen, if you call this a buff then so be it, but please don't be naive and think that nerfing lucina would make people to pick marth, unless you a hipster.

 

[DelugeFGC]

If Lucina is so easy to play and get results with I wonder why we don't see more pro Lucina players.

Almost like good fundamentals, spacing and execution don't spontaneously appear out out nowhere when picking up a character.. huh..

 

[Frihetsanka]

If Lucina is so easy to play and get results with I wonder why we don't see more pro Lucina players.

It's probably because she's likely near the lower end of top 10, so even if she's easy to play she's not really that rewarding. Good, sure, but not amazing.

I think people aren't looking a the big picture when talking about game balance, Lucina is not the only easy top tier character in this gamr, with wolf existing do you believe that lucina mains will jump on marth if she is nerfed??

I'm guessing some would jump to Marth (like Mr. E), while others would go for some other character (like Wolf or Chrom). Marth's main issue isn't that Lucina is better, it's that many characters are better.

 

[DunnoBro]

It's actually really crazy how well balanced the cast is. I think issues only arise due to a lack of necessary cues, and overall ambiguity I don't feel is warranted.

Like Pikmin order being so ambiguous, or the awkwardness involved in swatting them off due to the far more accurate hurtboxes.

Or the fact when you're on the ledge, Snake Usmash isn't properly observable due to the lower camera. So taking the right option is... Rough.

I'm anxious to see what kinda changes/fixes we get with a more data-intensive approach than smash 4.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

It's probably because she's likely near the lower end of top 10, so even if she's easy to play she's not really that rewarding. Good, sure, but not amazing.

I'm guessing some would jump to Marth (like Mr. E), while others would go for some other character (like Wolf or Chrom). Marth's main issue isn't that Lucina is better, it's that many characters are better.

Yes this my point, the character with the issue here is marth not lucina, on the aspect of the game balance itself this game is still young the developer are more focused on bugs and general game feel.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I don't know about that, game seems to get more and more broken in terms of bugs / exploits with every patch.. lmfao.. all I know is a well timed reflector on one of my smash attacks didn't used to stick hitboxes to my aerials and such.

Now I can literally meteor MYSELF into the BZ as Olimar, so joy.

In seriousness, they've done quite a bit in terms of balance.. just not necessarily made the best calls across the board.