Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Lil Puddin]

Marth being better seems to be unpopular this time around. He can have better potential all day, but it doesn't matter if no one actually achieves it on a regular basis.

Especially since everyone's faster, making it harder to space let alone catch some people. Hell, even Zelda can sometimes get up in someone's personal space now without the person having to be worse than her/making a huge mistake.

Either way they are both strong-ish characters so... Oops.

 

[NotLiquid]

I'm not sure why there's a discussion about whether an official tier list should be made now or not when Browny was asking who would be responsible for making it, not if it should be made now or not. Is there even a UBR yet like there was a 4BR, BBR and MBR prior? If not then is there plans for there to be one? An official tier list could be made now but we know more characters and patches are coming and waiting longer gives us more time to gauge where characters should go. Top and high tier seem pretty easy to figure out right now but a lot of people seem hesitant to call many characters low tier so there'd just be a big blob that makes up mid tier. Granted, by the end of Smash 4's time, there were only 6 in low (F) tier and 4 in bottom (G) tier with the rest of the cast in lower mid (E) tier or higher, meaning a low amount of characters in low tier is possible for Ultimate.

I think worrying about Smashboards' present "popularity" for lack of a better word when it comes to assembling a tier list is pretty alarmist when it's just a website that people use to congregate. The people who stay around and have a visible impact on competitive sentiment haven't gone anywhere.

A tier list will happen, and a backroom will likely form on a Discord server somewhere, with pro players, figureheads and rankings staff pulling the strings behind the scenes. Maybe Smashboards won't be the base of operations, or the site that pulls all the traffic for it, but that doesn't mean Smashboards staff won't be involved with it, so it'll drop day and date on here like any other previous tier list once multiple people are ready to start drawing conclusions.

 

[Browny]

I don't know how literally everyone missed my point.

It wasn't about when it is appropriate to make a tier list, it was about WHO does. Brawl was done by the BBR on this forum, Smash 4 was again, released by the 'Back room'. I haven't seen any hint of a back room existing in this game, so I can't imagine where a list would come from outside the very low-effort jobs of averaging out top players lists.

I point it out, because its entirely possible for any random person who has never played smash in their life, to go to a few twitter pages, make a spreadsheet and post what could very well be a 100% accurate tier list. Not a prediction, but use the same data to come to the same conclusion, so in effect it is *the* tier list.

 

[Frihetsanka]

It wasn't about when it is appropriate to make a tier list, it was about WHO does.

Maybe the people who did the Smash 4 lists are up for making Ultimate tier lists as well (with some adjustments, perhaps)?

I point it out, because its entirely possible for any random person who has never played smash in their life, to go to a few twitter pages, make a spreadsheet and post what could very well be a 100% accurate tier list. Not a prediction, but use the same data to come to the same conclusion, so in effect it is *the* tier list.

Something like this?: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/bagz79/april_ultimate_tier_list_a_combination_of_18/

 

[Rizen]

Maybe the people who did the Smash 4 lists are up for making Ultimate tier lists as well (with some adjustments, perhaps)?

Something like this?: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/bagz79/april_ultimate_tier_list_a_combination_of_18/

This guy has the right idea but went about it wrong with lists used being almost 2 months apart and a few players I've never heard of. should count as one character.

 

[Browny]

Maybe the people who did the Smash 4 lists are up for making Ultimate tier lists as well (with some adjustments, perhaps)?

Something like this?: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/bagz79/april_ultimate_tier_list_a_combination_of_18/

Exactly that. I was aware people do it, but if there are people out there doing monthly rolling averages like what that poster seems to be doing, there is certainly a case to be made that they are making official tier lists, if the actual 'official' list will be made using the exact same data and raw averages.

 

[|RK|]

I don't know how literally everyone missed my point.

It wasn't about when it is appropriate to make a tier list, it was about WHO does. Brawl was done by the BBR on this forum, Smash 4 was again, released by the 'Back room'. I haven't seen any hint of a back room existing in this game, so I can't imagine where a list would come from outside the very low-effort jobs of averaging out top players lists.

I point it out, because its entirely possible for any random person who has never played smash in their life, to go to a few twitter pages, make a spreadsheet and post what could very well be a 100% accurate tier list. Not a prediction, but use the same data to come to the same conclusion, so in effect it is *the* tier list.

Same thing happened in S4, you know. They put together a back room for the list.

The cycle continues, as ever.

 

[Click5]

Why do people care so much about tier lists? They aren't even a particularly useful tool in a game with a roster this size, and frankly, they are lazy and boring.

Most all up to this point have looked basically the same anyway. And in my opinion this is all based on group think from a few popular pros on social media.

We should be discussing match ups. Should be discussing how "fringe" characters like Mega Man, Duck Hunt, and Pac Man are putting up great results. How maybe there's a little more nuance in this game they some people want to believe.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Why do people care so much about tier lists? They aren't even a particularly useful tool in a game with a roster this size, and frankly, they are lazy and boring.

Most all up to this point have looked basically the same anyway. And in my opinion this is all based on group think from a few popular pros on social media.

We should be discussing match ups. Should be discussing how "fringe" characters like Mega Man, Duck Hunt, and Pac Man are putting up great results. How maybe there's a little more nuance in this game they some people want to believe.

I'd say that a well done Tier list would be more useful because of the size of the game. You can't really present matchups in a way that gives the same kind of overview.

Moreover, they are fun to peruse, and serve as the cause and basis of much discussion. Most people naturally foster strong feelings toward Tier list. Its clear that tier lists present information in such a way that is well designed for the human psyche in more than one way, we enjoy that kind hierarchy and order, especially when condensed and presented visually. This is proven among other things by the universal presence of tier lists and similarly morphologized data, which are found all all over the world in a plethora of different domains.

I think you kind of know this already, but you just dislike tier lists for some reason.

 

[Lil Puddin]

Why do people care so much about tier lists? They aren't even a particularly useful tool in a game with a roster this size, and frankly, they are lazy and boring.

Most all up to this point have looked basically the same anyway. And in my opinion this is all based on group think from a few popular pros on social media.

We should be discussing match ups. Should be discussing how "fringe" characters like Mega Man, Duck Hunt, and Pac Man are putting up great results. How maybe there's a little more nuance in this game they some people want to believe.

Because. Tier lists in any game with some sort of competitive aspect is inevitable. May as well try to have a good one.

 

[Minordeth]

Edited due to an opinion based on a jerk reaction.

 

[Sean²]

This player loses but he's quite good with lesser used characters like K.Rool and Isabelle, getting Seagull's Wolf to last stock, game 3.

While it was fun to watch, that was their weekly on the night before Glitch 6. From what I understand, a lot of people weren't taking it very seriously so they didn't show off too much for the bigger tournament the next day.

 

[Rizen]

While it was fun to watch, that was their weekly on the night before Glitch 6. From what I understand, a lot of people weren't taking it very seriously so they didn't show off too much for the bigger tournament the next day.

That's too bad. It was nice to see lesser known characters getting some love for a change. I'm tired of seeing the same characters like Snake, Wolf, etc and often end up skipping those videos. That's why it was great that Raito's DH did so well. The meta could use more diversity.

___________

I've been learning several characters and it's made me appreciate how oppressive 's neutral is. He out zones some good zoners like Lucas and Isabelle, shutting them down. It's much harder to fight them on their terms. YL's a polarizing character. Even characters like Olimar and Wolf have to watch out for his projectile game.

 

[The_Bookworm]

So Thunder Smash, a decently sized tournament is going on right now, and here is what the top 16 looks like:


Winner's
Dabuz vs WaDi
K9sbruce vs Salem
Myran vs ESAM
MVD vs Charlie


Loser's
Larry Lurr vs VoiD
Prodigy vs GimR
Razo vs TKbreezy (Razo already won 3-0)
Mr.R vs Hungrybox

 

[Lacrimosa]

While it was fun to watch, that was their weekly on the night before Glitch 6. From what I understand, a lot of people weren't taking it very seriously so they didn't show off too much for the bigger tournament the next day.

Nice. That makes Mystearicas double win at Pound against Seagull even more impressive :3.

 

[$.A.F.]

Wadi Beat Dabuz! EDIT: 3-0 as well. While not making him top 3 or anything, this is a really good showing for ROB, and depending on how far WaDi goes, could Up ROB’s tier placement by a bit.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Larry 3-2 VoiD

VoiD was interestingly going Sheik the entire set instead of Pichu. He did lose to K9's Wolf 3-2 earlier on with Pichu, so...

He was close nevertheless and can't wait to see how far he will push the character.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Wadi Beat Dabuz! EDIT: 3-0 as well. While not making him top 3 or anything, this is a really good showing for ROB, and depending on how far WaDi goes, could Up ROB’s tier placement by a bit.

R.O.B is a solid high-tier character that has some solid MU's vs some top-tiers i.e He may still have many the weakness he has in past Smash iterations. But Ultimate is the beat he has been yet

 

[Lil Puddin]

So Thunder Smash, a decently sized tournament is going on right now, and here is what the top 16 looks like:


Winner's
Dabuz vs WaDi
K9sbruce vs Salem
Myran vs ESAM
MVD vs Charlie


Loser's
Larry Lurr vs VoiD
Prodigy vs GimR
Razo vs TKbreezy (Razo already won 3-0)
Mr.R vs Hungrybox

Oof, WFT is so bad that they get 3-0'd. rip

WFT buffs when? Not counting that bury buff... Which... Is... Like buffing Zelda's sourspots by adding 0.1 damage.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Prodigy 3-2 Myran

 

[The_Bookworm]

This is Thunder Smash top 8:


Winner's
WaDi vs Salem
ESAM vs MVD (Classic matchup incoming!)


Loser's
Dabuz vs Razo
Prodigy vs Larry Lurr

 

[Rizen]

This is Thunder Smash top 8:


Winner's
WaDi vs Salem
ESAM vs MVD (Classic matchup incoming!)


Loser's
Dabuz vs Razo
Prodigy vs Larry Lurr

This is what I was talking about with character diversity, or lack of. Get used to seeing because they'll frequent top 8s. IMO the patch should have hit them a little harder.

With that said, Ultimate has a strong potential for lesser used character upsets. Don't count anyone out.

 

[The_Bookworm]

This is what I was talking about with character diversity, or lack of. Get used to seeing because they'll frequent top 8s. IMO the patch should have hit them a little harder.

With that said, Ultimate has a strong potential for lesser used character upsets. Don't count anyone out.

It is mostly because some of the best players in the world use those characters. Olimar, Snake, and Peach are characters that are easy to predict getting top 8, due to their inherent strengths, and their players playing them as far back as the Brawl days (the obvious exception is Salem, who doesn't use Snake in Brawl, but still is one of the best Snakes in the world because he is an amazing player regardless).

Wolf is still seeing rare sights in top 8 as a solo main. Larry used Falco quite a bit as well.

 

[KirbySquad101]

The last stock in Prodigy/Myran's set was hype as all hell. Prodigy did a great job of baiting 's Pikmin Order.

I'm not sure how to feel about ESAM up against MVD . The last time I saw ESAM fight a Snake (Ally's), he wrecked him so hard that he was forced to switch to Mario, so we'll see.

This is what I was talking about with character diversity, or lack of. Get used to seeing because they'll frequent top 8s. IMO the patch should have hit them a little harder.

With that said, Ultimate has a strong potential for lesser used character upsets. Don't count anyone out.

I think Bookworm is on to something here. Japan's Umebura Major Top 8 looked way more diverse, where we saw a , , , , , and there.

That said, US is looking to be much more centralized around , , and , given what players we have here (MVD, Ally, Salem, Myran, Dabuz, Samsora, MuteAce, etc.).

 

[The_Bookworm]

I'm not sure how to feel about ESAM up against MVD . The last time I saw ESAM fight a Snake (Ally's), he wrecked him so hard that he was forced to switch to Mario, so we'll see.

The two go back and forth in sets. MVD is easily the best Snake player against ESAM, due to obvious reasons.

 

[uhmuzing]

Has ESAM even lost to any Snake outside of MVD? In tournament.

I should add, it's my own opinion but Snake's results are slightly inflated in the west compared to Japan's relative unwillingness to play him and obscureness there. He's a top 10 character undoubtedly. He is probably on the edge just barely inside or outside of top 5.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Dang, you were right; I guess MVD sent ESAM to losers 3-2.

Looks like we're having a Snake ditto for Winners Final.... yeesh.

Has ESAM even lost to any Snake outside of MVD? In tournament.

I'm not too sure, actually. The only other Snake I remember him fighting was Ally, but I think he fought Salem at one point?

 

[uhmuzing]

ESAM beat Salem.

Edit: in the past

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

esam choked so hard, he needed to camp no go and eat pikmin in the face.

 

[Kiligar]

NickLeo is an amazing Rosalina main who’s not getting the attention he deserves. Check out his channel, in particular part 1 of this new guide he released. Fully optimized Rosalina is top tier I call early, due to the power of Lunar Landing+Attack Cancel. She requires a whole lot of dedication, but Nick is clearing through the hurdles. I wonder what will be pulled of with this Rosa tech in the future?

 

[Hippieslayer]

Oof, WFT is so bad that they get 3-0'd. rip

WFT buffs when? Not counting that bury buff... Which... Is... Like buffing Zelda's sourspots by adding 0.1 damage.

Wat.. no. Those buffs were good, not revolutionary but still really good. Incidentally I think the sourspot buff you use for comparison might not be as useless as you intend for it to be either. In any case youre either a bitter wii fit main or someone who doesn't know jack about the character, this means that either way you are not fit (hehehehe) to voice opinions about him/her.

Also who played wii fit vs who playing what character? Wii fit is weird and not that easy a char to judge you cant just jump to conclusions like that. I'd be careful about asking for wii fit buffs, could tip the scales easily.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I also agree that we shouldn't be quick to sell WFT short just yet. The fact that WaDi just barely picked him up and is already able to take on people like Elegant and Salem with him is quite a feat in of itself.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Wat.. no. Those buffs were good, not revolutionary but still really good. Incidentally I think the sourspot buff you use for comparison might not be as useless as you intend for it to be either. In any case youre either a bitter wii fit main or someone who doesn't know jack about the character, this means that either way you are not fit (hehehehe) to voice opinions about him/her.

Also who played wii fit vs who playing what character? Wii fit is weird and not that easy a char to judge you cant just jump to conclusions like that. I'd be careful about asking for wii fit buffs, could tip the scales easily.

It'd be not very useful.
That thing is still negative on hit until very, very high percent.
I'd love to see a knockback buff on the sourspot of Zelda's fair and bair so it isn't negative on hit at 80% or something like that. Then it'd be a really good aerial but right now it's a bad aerial and only really useful OoS.

E:

I don't know how accurate these hitboxes truly are (I don't own that character), but these hitboxes look awful. Not only are the moves pretty slow but especially the aerials have zero range. I mean...the hitboxes are accurate (they're connected to the body nearly perfectly) but that makes them incredibly small.
And on top of that, most of its moves don't kill. So it looks like high risk but low reward...

 

[ZephyrZ]

For kill moves, Plant has F-Smash, U-Smash, Bair, Neutral B, Down B, and even a decent kill throw in U-throw. His killpower is fine, even if a couple moves are kind of situational.

If he has any issue with killing its getting in to get the kill in the first place.

 

[Hippieslayer]

It'd be not very useful.
That thing is still negative on hit until very, very high percent.
I'd love to see a knockback buff on the sourspot of Zelda's fair and bair so it isn't negative on hit at 80% or something like that. Then it'd be a really good aerial but right now it's a bad aerial and only really useful OoS.

Yeah, but if its slightly less negative on shield that might reduce the range of available punishes.. though 0.1% is probably too little for the effect to be meaningful I suppose.

I'd also love to see such a knockback buff, perhaps it could be negative but with a base knockback just enough to prevent punishes on hit with min ranged attacks. Then it could also be used to control stage and as a setup for other things.

Ive thought about those sourspots a lot, IMO they are one of if not the biggest issue with Zelda. Her lack of a reliable fair and bair really forces her to play grounded, heavily limits her ability to space and makes her feel so stiff to play. Nair cant quite make Up for it. Also think its kind of fundamentally odd for such a super light character to have to risk heavy punishment in that way.

 

[DelugeFGC]

For kill moves, Plant has F-Smash, U-Smash, Bair, Neutral B, Down B, and even a decent kill throw in U-throw. His killpower is fine, even if a couple moves are kind of situational.

If he has any issue with killing its getting in to get the kill in the first place.

In what world is UThrow a 'decent' kill throw when, if properly DI'd it can be survived at 110%+? UThrow usually doesn't start killing (if they DI right, anyway) until like 120%+ in my experience, sometimes not until 135%+ if it's a heavier body.. I couldn't see it killing earlier than like 110-115 unless badly DI'd or used on a very light character. That's 'a kill throw' but in no world would I call it 'decent'. It can be delayed to as high as 140% sometimes.. that's getting up with Joker's kill throws, and everyone knows he has kill trouble when not offstage / with Arsene out. PP UThrow is a HIGH percent kill throw, making it very situational considering plant has an awful grab range.

FSmash is pretty much worthless outside of a read.. matter of fact a lot of Plant's kit is. I couldn't ever find much on him that confirmed into the few kill moves he had, I was always stuck fishing for them in neutral or trying to go for reads. That's not GOOD kill power, plenty of characters have moves that can potentially kill you earlier than most but if the odds of landing those moves are very low.. I don't consider that to be 'positive' for their kill power.

BAir has an extremely wonky / precise hitbox and STILL doesn't tend to kill under like 125%. USmash has a terrible hitbox imo, and like FSmash the move is also pretty laggy (even more-so I think).. and even more situational. I've also survived some pretty high % (for it being a Smash attack, anyway) USmash's. I've explained the problems with Neutral B. Down B is one of the easiest moves to read / avoid in the entire game when not offstage (even there it's meh as hell) and while it can kill decent and has range.. you're not landing it often if your opponent is worth their salt at ALL.

Plant has definite kill issues, most of his kill options don't work until fairly high %'s and even (as you said) getting a chance to go for these kill options when you can is pretty difficult most of the time.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Kill power doesn't refer to how useable a move is. Kill power refers to the move's ability to kill before you start getting into absurd percentages (160~ plus range there really isn't a set standard for this) where moves that don't kill start to kill. So yes Plant's kill moves are those that were listed doesn't necessarily mean he has the easiest time landing them. He has issues landing his kill moves but not actual issues getting a kill if he can land them.

It's sorta the opposite of say a Sheik who lacks kill power but has the ability to get her opponents into situations she could get kills if she had better kill power in her moves.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

What would you guys say WFT's weaknesses are? A lot of people say the neutral isn't very good, but I'd argue that the two projectiles+nair being The God makes her neutral at least serviceable?

 

[Untouch]

What would you guys say WFT's weaknesses are? A lot of people say the neutral isn't very good, but I'd argue that the two projectiles+nair being The God makes her neutral at least serviceable?

Poor disadvantage state due to how low her air speed is.

Anyways saying that WFT is bad because she got knocked out is the jankiest tournament this year is a bit silly, especially with how WaDi went WFT in the same tourney and got 4th.

 

[Heracr055]

Wii Fit's weaknesses are probably her unorthodox hitboxes. They are fairly precise and don't have great range.
Her neutral is okay but it's not oppressive or anything.