Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Supermodel From Paris]

If you look at the characters in that tier, you'll see that it's highly unlikely that A tier is high tier. Semantics aside, Ganondorf being "high-mid" (I suppose) is still very impressive. I don't think that's true, personally, but it's something.

If you watch the video, you can see that he calls it high tier.

High tier to me btw isn't a tier of characters with no bad matchups. Even top tier characters have bad matchups sometimes. High tier is a tier of characters with flaws but can either be a killer secondary character to use or can be used as a main with a secondary. I'd say Ganon works there. He definitely has problems and flaws but his option coverage and kill power are so strong on their own that he is a good choice as a tournament character in certain situations.

This is a pretty good showing of and especially . Definitely a tournament to note.

I think Duck Hunt is pretty good. I also think he's sort of a galaxy brain sort of character that most people won't want to bother with. If you're more than a few steps ahead, DH is positively oppressive, maybe even moreso than characters we typically think of as better. The skill ceiling for the character is very high, but the floor is also a ceiling, so most people won't bother playing him.

 

[Kiligar]

I don’t understand why it’s popular to underrate Snake. Earlier in this thread players called him and Palutena the gatekeepers of high tier. No, Snake is top tier. He’s one of the best in the game. He’s top 5. Who outside of Peach, Olimar, Pichu, and Wolf are better than Snake? Maybe Wario? Regardless, let’s talk about why I think he’s top tier. And before the patch he was the 2nd or 3rd best character in the game.
Pros:
Heavyweight
Removes cons of heavyweight through combo breaking with grenades
Up tilt is broken. If you complain about Olimar then you really should complain about this. It’s more problematic than Olimar’s up smash due to it not requiring certain Pikmin.
Nikita is still broken. It has too little endlag. Snake players do not even have to learn to edgegaurd, they get the same reward without any risk.
Down Throw forces 50-50s that reward Snake with a kill, without any risk to Snake himself.
Grenades and C4 are good and hard to combat, not broken but powerful tools nonetheless
Good burst dash attack and decent aerials, very strong spike
Cons:
Tall hurtbox
Somewhat exploitable recovery

This seems a little bit unbalanced, and is why I think Snake is just that good.

 

[Frihetsanka]

If you watch the video, you can see that he calls it high tier.

I've already pointed out that he called the tiers the following: S top tier, A+ high tier, A mid tier, B/C+/C low tier.

That seems more reliable than a throw-away comment near the end of his video, especially since he referred to it as middle tier or something like that several times.

High tier to me btw isn't a tier of characters with no bad matchups. Even top tier characters have bad matchups sometimes. High tier is a tier of characters with flaws but can either be a killer secondary character to use or can be used as a main with a secondary. I'd say Ganon works there. He definitely has problems and flaws but his option coverage and kill power are so strong on their own that he is a good choice as a tournament character in certain situations.

I think tier lists should be made with the assumption that you're solo maining the character, not using it as a secondary or together with a secondary.

Who outside of Peach, Olimar, Pichu, and Wolf are better than Snake?

Inkling, potentially. People are sleeping on her because of Cosmos's trip to Japan.

 

[Gleam]

Wifi. Seriously though, Ganon's a strong player counterpick character, like how Nairo uses him. If you can read your opponent and outplay them a little he can be devastating. But don't expect to see a lot of solo Ganons getting far.

Void said it's high tier but as stated, it is semantics.

Honestly that's pretty much it. I think these people just saw Nairo play Ganon and immediately assumed he must be awesome. What's funny though is that, Ganon clearly doesn't show up that much in large scale tournaments or as a major threat throughout. Even if Void isn't paying attention to the overall results, he must at least see how limited Ganondorf is across the tournament setting.

Also, let's for argument sake say Ganondorf has the capabilities of a High Mid-High Tier character.

When you account his relative popularity and his poor results, what you get is a character who is so insanely difficult to use on a professional setting that it doesn't even matter. Ganon must be the most technical based character ever designed in the game by this standard. Even if you have , again for argument sake, a "technically" good character, you don't have anywhere near an "optimally" good character. It's a classic, what looks good on paper doesn't necessarily mean good on the field.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think tier lists should be made with the assumption that you're solo maining the character, not using it as a secondary or together with a secondary.

This is unrealistic and not at all how tier lists are done for other games. It's not even really how they're done in Smash. Few mained Wario in Brawl but he was consistently top 10 because he was so useful as a secondary that it was hard to ignore him. Elena in USF4 is one of the best characters in the game in her element but suffers hard when she's not, and a many, many people think she's top 2 (and almost everyone would say top 5) because she was such a common secondary (and not at all a common main).

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think Ganondorf ranges somewhere between mediocre to pretty bad, probably bottom 10-25 or so. Ganondorf have some MUs that are pretty bad (-2 or maybe even -3) vs top tiers, so that makes him a not very good character, at least as a solo main.

This is unrealistic and not at all how tier lists are done for other games. It's not even really how they're done in Smash. Few mained Wario in Brawl but he was consistently top 10 because he was so useful as a secondary that it was hard to ignore him.

Actually, a lot of people mention that when they're making tier lists they're assuming it's for solo mains, that's what makes the most sense, after all. A tier list for how good characters are as secondaries would look very different.

So I looked at Brawl's MU chart and it turns out that most characters who weren't, like, top 6 were fairly unviable. Wario had a decent MU spread except some unfortunate MUs, but characters below him had even worse MU spreads, so him being top 10 made sense.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

The skill ceiling for the character is very high, but the floor is also a ceiling, so most people won't bother playing him.

I believe you mean the skill floor is very high, skill ceiling is super super high with every character.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I believe you mean the skill floor is very high, skill ceiling is super super high with every character.

Er, no. I mean he has a high ceiling and a high floor. There's a lot you can do with him but he's not a character you can just pick up and play.

 

[Kiligar]

I don’t take the tier lists from professional players very seriously. Void, ESAM, M2K, zeRo etc. M2K’s last tier list was comical, placing Incineroar, Meta Knight, Captain Falcon and Pit in the same tier as Little Mac. He had Ganondorf and Belmonts in high tier. Both M2K and zeRo had Mr.Game&Watch as low tier, and recently after that Maister made it to the finals of Full Bloom 5, only losing due to an SD as he had the percent lead. As for Void and ESAM, Void’s is the tier list that’s currently under discussion, and I feel ESAM’s last tier list was the most accurate. Void’s isn’t that off though either, but Ganondorf and the Belmont’s are overrated again. The reason I don’t trust the tier lists all the time is that much of the time the pro players do not interact with characters they consider lower tiered. Some are obvious, like Little Mac, but some get criminally underrated without explanation like Sonic. Overall they’re an interesting perspective, but the only thing that can truly be accurate is top 10 best and worst, the rest will change rapidly based on tournament placings, skilled players and new tech.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Er, no. I mean he has a high ceiling and a high floor. There's a lot you can do with him but he's not a character you can just pick up and play.

That's just one of many facets of skill, lucina also has a high skill ceiling, like every other character in the game. What makes DHD harder?

DHD needs to manage his projectiles well, but everyone else that plays against him needs to understand his projectiles ih order to avoid them and get close.

Everyone who plays against lucina needs to have really good movement and spacing to beat her in neutral, but lucina also needs these things to win, not to mention the awareness and lab time to extend each hit.

Every character has high skill ceiling, so DHD isn't any different.

 

[SapphSabre777]

A lot of people are now throwing their hat in on Snake being top 5...but right now as I see it, the results and how dominant the character has been as of late points him to being a Top 3 character, and an argument on being the best character in the game because of how meta he currently is.

Pound and beyond has shown Snake at his apex, with Ally winning the event over Olimar (another contender for the best, but lacks the results en masse that Snake does) and a bunch of other Snake players following behind. Come to Papa 3 has mirrored the same thing, with 4 Snakes in Top 12, and MVD winning the whole thing. Combine this with the recent data that Snake is amongst Fox and Wolf in terms of tournament representation well before this huge breakthrough, and has won big tournaments to boot as Ultimate's meta has grown, and its tough to not call him anything short of a "meta character".

It also helps that Snake's toolkit has some very overtuned options, to the point where they create MUs that while are losing, are simply volatile to play against because of the nature of the battle. Easily the best Dash Attack, killing Tilt (that's practically safe because of how strong it is), and projectile in the game (Nikita is simply gross at edgeguarding), all while being a heavy that can Frame-1 combo break, has absurd frame-data considering his damage output, and the best ledge-trapping in the game with his kit, is simply too stacked for a character to be able to block everything strong that this character has, even in high-level play. Fox can get in easy, but if he racks too much damage, he's in KO range before he knows it. Lucina risks getting out frame-data'd and her landings can be challenged with his Dash Attack, and much more examples. His disadvantage is bad, but only if Snake recovers low or mid off-stage. When he is high, he's free to land and create pressure landing because of Nade and C4, with only high-jumpers and multi-jump characters being able to pressure him without much assistance. Even then, a bad disadvantage doesn't really dent Snake that much, considering his neutral and advantage state are extremely polarizing. It'll be interesting to see if counterplay will surface more than ever with this new wave of Snake results. With his booming (no pun intended) trend right now, it will be a necessity at this rate.

 

[Guido65]

Speaking of the best super-heavyweight, what is everyone's opinion on who it is? ()

is easily my pick for the best superheavy as of current for a couple of reasons:

• Best frame data and mobility of the superheavies.
• Has huge range and intangible arms which lets him contest swords in neutral. Even has a powerful burst option in his dash attack.
• Very powerful advantage state all around.

After that i'd say bowser and dedede are next since bowser has an amazing up b oos and stupid command grab but at the same time he trades them for dks overall.

Honestly regarding voids tier list I find it very odd that he placed a whole tier lower than when not only both are extremely comparable characters, but incineroar has had a lot bigger waves in tournaments. In my eyes I'd say incineroars the better character for a couple of reasons with emphasis on the big reasons.

• Incineroar has a lot better of a oos game. Nair is huge, frame 8 when done oos and it can hit shorties much more reliably than any of ganons oos options can. Plus he has cross chop while not the fastest move, has armor and arm intangibility. Because of this he can relieve shield pressure a lot better than ganon can.
• He has better rising aerials to work with.
• This reasoning doesn't sound too big at first but incineroar has an up tilt and a jab combo. This gives incineroar far fewer blind spots and means he has a way of anti airing that's not overly committal or require jumping, and a better gtfo button in a jab even if dlariats better for gtfo purposes, it's very punishable so roar has a much better way of boxing up close.
• The other deal breaker is incineroar has a far better recovery because he has good mixups. Ganon can't viably recover high as a mix up and he has to deal with rock crock which heavily ruins his survivability.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

"far of being carried" sounds like scrub mentality to me. I suppose you could worry about not learning how to play the game properly, but aside from that, blaming other people (or yourself) for "being carried" is a bad mentality.

Sounds like you are worrying about tiers if you're avoiding Lucina and Wolf because they are too good.

Good thing I don't really play in tournaments and have a real job, or else my "scrub mentality" would really be harmful. As for me caring about tiers....uh, yeah? I never said that I didn't. Stay cool, dude. Don't insult me just because I want to keep the game fun for me and my friends. I'll play the game however I want to, and you'll do you.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Good thing I don't really play in tournaments and have a real job, or else my "scrub mentality" would really be harmful. As for me caring about tiers....uh, yeah? I never said that I didn't. Stay cool, dude. Don't insult me just because I want to keep the game fun for me and my friends. I'll play the game however I want to, and you'll do you.

Uhhh, I have a 9-5 job and still manage to swing by my locals every now and then. I also have a life, go out on weekends, and a boyfriend that I spend a lot of time with.

This "real job" OS is nonsense, buddy. If you wanted to be there you'd be there.

 

[Sean²]

Good thing I don't really play in tournaments and have a real job, or else my "scrub mentality" would really be harmful. As for me caring about tiers....uh, yeah? I never said that I didn't. Stay cool, dude. Don't insult me just because I want to keep the game fun for me and my friends. I'll play the game however I want to, and you'll do you.

I read your other post and kind of wanted to say that there's nothing wrong with having fun while playing a top tier either. I've played the same top tier since he was widely considered a mid tier, so there's that. But if someone really thinks I'm carried, then I'll switch to Richter, or Kirby, or Marth, or whomever else I like playing, and beat them with those characters too. Though most people aren't audacious enough to say that unless their mentality is akin to saying a move is "cheap".

 

[blackghost]

Other notable Ridley players includes Locus and Venom. Locus is beginning to play a little more Dr. Mario lately, but still plays Ridley a lot. Notice that quite a bit of the top Ryu players from SSB4 switched over to Ridley in this game. Interesting to note.

ridley is a footsie character thats why. ftilt, fair, down b (gimmicky), dtilt.combine long normals with a commmand grab that wins stage control and you have a character thats attractive to ryu smash 4 players that used ryu for more than just shoryuken.
its always fun imo to see which characters playerbases heavily overlap (zss, peach, bayo), (FE),

 

[Kankato]

Good thing I don't really play in tournaments and have a real job, or else my "scrub mentality" would really be harmful. As for me caring about tiers....uh, yeah? I never said that I didn't. Stay cool, dude. Don't insult me just because I want to keep the game fun for me and my friends. I'll play the game however I want to, and you'll do you.

@ScrubQuotesX

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

Uhhh, I have a 9-5 job and still manage to swing by my locals every now and then. I also have a life, go out on weekends, and a boyfriend that I spend a lot of time with.

This "real job" OS is nonsense, buddy. If you wanted to be there you'd be there.

I wasn't saying that I couldn't make it to tournaments, I was saying that I choose not to go very often and that I don't earn my living off of it, therefore I shouldn't have to worry about it as much. It's perfectly fine that anybody else do whatever they want as well. I was defending myself, not talking about anyone else's choices. We cool. As for the post by Sean, I agree there's nothing wrong with it, I just personally don't like doing that with friends. I've also been maining Roy since he was garbage, and even now that he's pretty good I still play him a ton. I feel it.

EDIT: I guess my message is that people don't have to expect literally every single person to have an absolute will to win and only play the way that the top players do. And stop slinging names: all that happens is shrinking the community and causing frustration. Save the smack for tournaments, please.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Good thing I don't really play in tournaments and have a real job, or else my "scrub mentality" would really be harmful. As for me caring about tiers....uh, yeah? I never said that I didn't. Stay cool, dude. Don't insult me just because I want to keep the game fun for me and my friends. I'll play the game however I want to, and you'll do you.

I'm not insulting you, but if you're playing with your friends casually, why not just play characters you enjoy playing instead of worrying about them being too strong? Avoiding characters you like because you worry that they might carry you? Yeah, I don't think that's a good mentality to have. Not wanting to play top tiers because you don't find them fun? That's fine. Not wanting to play top tiers because they're too strong? Yeaaaah... Bad mentality.

Speaking of the best super-heavyweight, what is everyone's opinion on who it is? ()

Probably Bowser or Dedede. I don't think either of them are top 25 though.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

I'm not insulting you, but if you're playing with your friends casually, why not just play characters you enjoy playing instead of worrying about them being too strong? Avoiding characters you like because you worry that they might carry you? Yeah, I don't think that's a good mentality to have. Not wanting to play top tiers because you don't find them fun? That's fine. Not wanting to play top tiers because they're too strong? Yeaaaah... Bad mentality.

Probably Bowser or Dedede. I don't think either of them are top 25 though.

My B, moving to PM though.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think that could be high mid but he's not any better than that. He hits like , has the frame data of , and the range of . However, he is really held back by his movement speed and recovery. is a pretty balanced character overall in my opinion and I can realistically see him in high mid tier. I do not see him as the best super-heavyweight though.

Speaking of the best super-heavyweight, what is everyone's opinion on who it is? ()

Ganondorf by far, because he's just an offensive beast with great approaches, range, attack speed, pressure and well.. everything. Ganondorf has proven to be a competitive viable character. The other a bit less so, but if I where to pick a number 2, it's easily DK. However Bowser and Dedede aren't far behind. Incineroar and K.Rool are underrated yes, but not as good as DK or Bowser. Piranha Plant and Charizard are jokes, especially Piranha Plant.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Ganondorf by far, because he's just an offensive beast with great approaches, range, attack speed, pressure and well.. everything. Ganondorf has proven to be a competitive viable character. The other a bit less so, but if I where to pick a number 2, it's easily DK. However Bowser and Dedede aren't far behind. Incineroar and K.Rool are underrated yes, but not as good as DK or Bowser. Piranha Plant and Charizard are jokes, especially Piranha Plant.

I don't think one showing proves the viability of a character. Bowser has made at least twice Top 17th in bigger tourneys so I think that's more worth than Nairo carrying this character once. And Light destroyed his Ganon at Prime Saga.

 

[uhmuzing]

Consistency is the main thing that matters in figuring out how viable the heavyweights or any character is. Nairo's Ganon completely thromping Light the first time was hysterical, but the fact Light adjusted and performed so much better at Prime is far more telling of how worthwhile Gabon actually is.

 

[Rizen]

What did I say? Everyone has a different best big character. They can seem high or low tier depending on how good a day they're having.

IMO 's the best. I found out recently he has ding dongs that are true with platforms. DK's very mobile in the air and his arms are big and disjointed during attacks. As a core character he's the most solid. As a gimicky/janky character he falls behind other bigs with stuff like revenge.

 

[Diddy Kong]

DK also has real strong edgeguarding, as well as a great advantage state. He can 0-death enemies quite a bit easier than all the other heavy weights, and that's indeed due to most what Rizen says here above. Long reach, good approach, very mobile, great rewards and options out of grab, shield pressure with Side B, the Giant Punch which just about the most intimidating move in the game... Yeah he's got potential. Might need to pick him up more, because he's great at certain matchups where I struggle as Diddy.

 

[$.A.F.]

I think that could be high mid but he's not any better than that. He hits like , has the frame data of , and the range of . However, he is really held back by his movement speed and recovery. is a pretty balanced character overall in my opinion and I can realistically see him in high mid tier. I do not see him as the best super-heavyweight though.

Speaking of the best super-heavyweight, what is everyone's opinion on who it is? ()

I’d say Bowser. Fast, Good KP, Fair, Up B OoS, and a command grab for 20 that kills around 100 make him the best heavy for me. After that it’s (in order) D3/DK, Ganondorf, Incineroar, Plant/K. Rool, then Zard. I’m free to elaborate if you guys have any questions since I know some choices may seem strange.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

What did I say? Everyone has a different best big character. They can seem high or low tier depending on how good a day they're having.

IMO 's the best. I found out recently he has ding dongs that are true with platforms. DK's very mobile in the air and his arms are big and disjointed during attacks. As a core character he's the most solid. As a gimicky/janky character he falls behind other bigs with stuff like revenge.

DK ironically has the lest overall results of any Superheavy other than What you said id true but he also has one of the worst disadantage states of out any superheavy. Quite possiblty one of the worst disadvantage states in the game. He also can really depend on jankiness or inexperince with gimmicks say like
lus the issue of his recovery. If DK is forced to recovery low or at a long horizontal distance. he is going to get spiked or knocked away by any good player. He can die like at 80-90 offstage almost as easilty as Gannondorf

 

[Emblem Lord]

I firmly believe this character's future depends on the anti-sword tech that people discover with them. Yoshi has a really strong air game that is nulled by Roy/Lucina/maybe Cloud and their giant air buttons, but if you can keep them in disadvantage or offstage you can rack tons of damage. Considering sword characters are never leaving it's best to adapt now then hope for nerfs.

So happy our footsie overlords keep this character in check.

Stupid dinosaur.

Warn me mods. It was worth.

 

[Rizen]

DK ironically has the lest overall results of any Superheavy other than What you said id true but he also has one of the worst disadantage states of out any superheavy. Quite possiblty one of the worst disadvantage states in the game. He also can really depend on jankiness or inexperince with gimmicks say like
lus the issue of his recovery. If DK is forced to recovery low, he is going to get spiked or knocked away by any good player. He can die like at 80-90 offstage almost as easilty as Gannondorf

To be fair saying DK has the worst disadvantage of the super heavies is like saying "This orange is the most orange of all the oranges".

 

[Ziodyne 21]

To be fair saying DK has the worst disadvantage of the super heavies is like saying "This orange is the most orange of all the oranges".

But saying DK disadvantge is bad even for the standards msuperheavy is also kinda saying something. He can also die like below 100% at times due to the nature of his recovery., not as often as Gannondorf but it still happens.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Nairo's Ganon completely thromping Light the first time was hysterical, but the fact Light adjusted and performed so much better at Prime is far more telling of how worthwhile Gabon actually is.

Fox is also arguably one of the least bad top tier MUs Ganondorf has. Characters like Pichu, Pikachu, Olimar, Inkling, and Lucina are probably worse for him (probably -2 or worse).

 

[The_Bookworm]

VoiD next tier list part is here. Nothing too unusual with the placements.
Except for one: Sheik. He really thinks Sheik is at A+ tier. He thinks the Sheik buffs from 3.0.0 really helped her that much. Definitely a hot take here.

 

[Diddy Kong]

But saying DK disadvantge is bad even for the standards msuperheavy is also kinda saying something. He can also die like below 100% at times due to the nature of his recovery., not as often as Gannondorf but it still happens.

But more often than not, DK lives till around 170% or so. And then gets crazy rage benefits like no other. I don't know why, but Bowser never lives this long I noticed.

 

[Roguewolf]

My personal felling of best big boy is bowser the king koppa is scary with his speed edgeguarding command grab and what the he'll is that new netraul b he's got

Still feels good to see bowser as scary as he is

 

[uhmuzing]

Bowser and Dedede almost certainly have the best showings of heavies atm. On paper, I would have expected DK and Dedede to occupy each other's positions results-wise but it's possible DK simply doesn't have Zaki/Peli/BigD level players. I can't think of anyone noteworthy who mains DK besides Konga. I could be wrong but either Konga hasn't participated too often so far in Ultimate or has just underperformed compared to before.

Bowser is best imo. Had more to say but **** my internet.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Konga definitely isn't active. Otherwise we'd see him get results. He's a beast.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

VoiD next tier list part is here. Nothing too unusual with the placements.
Except for one: Sheik. He really thinks Sheik is at A+ tier. He thinks the Sheik buffs from 3.0.0 really helped her that much. Definitely a hot take here.

So by process of elimination hat leaves his thoughts of top-tiers generally what post people think now.
Ya know and finally..wait. Oh for the love of! why do so many pro players still put him in top-tier om thier lists

Shulk is top-tier "cuz potential" is the Smash meme that will just hever die.

 

[Kiligar]

Yeah, I think Bowser’s the best super heavy, which is interesting being he’s also the heaviest. All of his aerials do about 20 damage with tremendous hitboxes, his Bair is one of the strongest in the entire game. He has a great air speed at 19th fastest, great run Speed also at 19th fastest, and great fall Speed for pressure at 19th fastest as well. His pivot grab still has pretty silly range, not quite as big but still enormous, which goes together well with his grounded speed. His side Special can be used in midair, and kills real early on platforms. It can also be used on characters with Lucina recovery or less to force a stock reset or further the gap between stocks. The neutral Special, his fire breath deals huge damage, and even if you shield on it you’re still taking damage by getting shield stabbed. Down B is shield breaker or can catch an overextending juggler, if you get the shield break the opponent is mega-dead. His recovery isn’t perfect but it’s decent horizontally, much better than an Ike/ Roy level recovery. I feel Bowser is better than DK due to the Side Special, pivot grab, fire breath and up special oos.

 

[1FC0]

It's a classic, what looks good on paper doesn't necessarily mean good on the field.

That is just because your theory is flawed. Practice is always according to theory to someone with enough understanding.

 

[Kankato]

That is just because your theory is flawed. Practice is always according to theory to someone with enough understanding.

This is a good way to approach theory mentality but it's important to remember a lot of theory early in a game's life is speculative. I imagine theory will become more and more constructive as the overall skill level increases.

So happy our footsie overlords keep this character in check.

Stupid dinosaur.

Warn me mods. It was worth.

The dino revolution is coming.

Maybe.

Possibly.

Idk Yoshi-cord has a lot of members so yeah.