Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Rizen]

I don't know the matchups well at all, but I feel Mac may do well against some of the heavies, namely Charizard, Bowser and Ganondorf, because of their lack of range.

Theoretically, I can see Mac doing well vs heavyweights. Mac's fast and powerful in CQC and heavies aren't known for being strong jugglers.

 

[Krysco]

One of the worst MU's in 4 was vs and Mac didn't get too much going into Ultimate while it sounds like Pac got quite a few things like bigger hitboxes and a grab that doesn't take a ludicrous amount of time to end. The only changes I can see going into Mac's favour are the air dodge changes, giving him just a tiny bit of extra mix up in recovering and also Pac's trampoline having a hurtbox so you can change the colour of it by just hitting it rather than having to land on it or wait it out.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Theoretically, I can see Mac doing well vs heavyweights. Mac's fast and powerful in CQC and heavies aren't known for being strong jugglers.

Ganon's UAir is actually a pretty decent juggling tool because of how large the hitbox is, especially on BF. ROB (though he's a pseudo-heavyweight) has his UAir and Bowser has pretty okay juggling ability for a super. Ridley as well, though that's another pseudo-heavy. Wario can juggle the ever living hell out of you, as can Ike, but those aren't supers either.

 

[Rizen]

Ganon's UAir is actually a pretty decent juggling tool because of how large the hitbox is, especially on BF. ROB (though he's a pseudo-heavyweight) has his UAir and Bowser has pretty okay juggling ability for a super. Ridley as well, though that's another pseudo-heavy. Wario can juggle the ever living hell out of you, as can Ike, but those aren't supers either.

Ganon's Uair has great platform coverage but only gets one hit. When I talk about strong jugglers I mean characters like Mario where you can get at least 3 hits in.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Ganon's Uair has great platform coverage but only gets one hit. When I talk about strong jugglers I mean characters like Mario where you can get at least 3 hits in.

When Ganon gets you in disadvantage, in a lot of MU's with the right reads and such he can keep the juggle going pretty strong. Are you more referring to like, people who can ladder juggle with combos?

 

[Rizen]

When Ganon gets you in disadvantage, in a lot of MU's with the right reads and such he can keep the juggle going pretty strong. Are you more referring to like, people who can ladder juggle with combos?

I never really found Ganon to be a strong juggler; his mobility is too low and I can usually land. Uair usually hits at a sideways angle and good jugglers want to keep you above them. The best juggler of the super heavies imo is DK because he has a quick Uair and can stay on you.

I just mean characters who can keep you in the air above them for extended periods of time. SSB4 Rosa and Cloud were insane jugglers but got tuned down. They might still be good though. Mario, Luigi, ZSS, CF, Bayo, G&W, Mega Man, Pichu, etc come to mind when I think of jugglers. They all have potential to hit you with at least 3 aerial attacks while you're above them.

 

[meleebrawler]

Whether Ganondorf is good at juggling in the strictest definition of the word is kind of moot when a single uair from him is worth two of Mario's (and his nair is nearly worth three) and you consider the generally lower percents Ganondorf needs to kill outright. And if we're talking Mac specifically, wouldn't knocking him sideways be considered better for opening the possibility of an early gimp kill?

 

[DelugeFGC]

I never really found Ganon to be a strong juggler; his mobility is too low and I can usually land. Uair usually hits at a sideways angle and good jugglers want to keep you above them. The best juggler of the super heavies imo is DK because he has a quick Uair and can stay on you.

I just mean characters who can keep you in the air above them for extended periods of time. SSB4 Rosa and Cloud were insane jugglers but got tuned down. They might still be good though. Mario, Luigi, ZSS, CF, Bayo, G&W, Mega Man, Pichu, etc come to mind when I think of jugglers. They all have potential to hit you with at least 3 aerial attacks while you're above them.

It's MU dependent with Ganon, anybody who doesn't have strong aerial mobility can get locked up disadvantage by his UAir on BF, but not in the way of strings or anything, just getting caught via reads on the way down. I'm not saying he's like, an A-List juggler, just that of the super heavies his juggle ability isn't abysmal because as you said, they aren't known for having much of the ability at all.

DK is by far the best juggler of the lot due to his mobility and faster moves than his size would allude.

Cloud still has very good juggling ability I find, his mobility allows him to find your hurtbox with UAir most of the time if the player has a good handle on Cloud, like holding on to Limit to assist with aerial mobility / wavelands on platforms / etc. It's hard to squeeze out of Cloud's disadvantage, especially vertically on stages like BF. UAir isn't the, house, it was in 4 though. Neither is NAir.

Falcon UAir has wonderful juggle ability, I'm usually always able to string 2-3 together before the person escapes hitstun if I catch them with the first one or out of certain combos at certain %'s. It also can lead into DI reads into fast fall Falcon Dives which is nice, or knees. His UAir is up there with Mario's for being spammable as hell during hitstun.

 

[N8than]

heavies aren't known for being strong jugglers.

they are against little mac...

But in all seriousness, not having any good aerials ag

I just mean characters who can keep you in the air above them for extended periods of time. SSB4 Rosa and Cloud were insane jugglers but got tuned down. They might still be good though. Mario, Luigi, ZSS, CF, Bayo, G&W, Mega Man, Pichu, etc come to mind when I think of jugglers. They all have potential to hit you with at least 3 aerial attacks while you're above them.

How's young link at juggling compared to those other characters?

 

[DelugeFGC]

they are against little mac...

But in all seriousness, not having any good aerials ag

How's young link at juggling compared to those other characters?

Young Link is fantastic at juggling, UAir comes out fast, lingers and he has the mobility to find you with it constantly.

 

[Krysco]

they are against little mac...

But in all seriousness, not having any good aerials ag

How's young link at juggling compared to those other characters?

I'll just go ahead and tag Rizen since I didn't say the bit quoted but rather they did~ plus I only use Yink casually so I can't answer the question.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Kokiri Sword has a surprisingly wide hitbox for its size and his UAir comes out just fast enough while lingering just long enough to be a threat in disadvantage, though it's by no means something you're gonna get locked into a string of 2-3 on in a true hitstun combo. UTilt can drag people up into UAir at lower percents, big bodied characters get eaten alive by this easy combo, you can also replace UAir with USmash. The bow can lock big bodies into combos of 3-4+ arrows and drag them up into the air very quickly in a few MU's. Bomb / Arrow > Up B will climb people a good distance vertically if not outright killing them, stages like BF can allow you to use platforms to finish it with an UAir from there. Angled boomerangs can sometimes be a pain in the ass.. overall YL a lot of tools to keep the vertical area of the stage quite oppressive once you're in disadvantage, though he's by no means the best in the game at it.

 

[Rizen]

they are against little mac...

But in all seriousness, not having any good aerials ag

How's young link at juggling compared to those other characters?

Like Deluge said YL's pretty good at it. His Uair is several frames faster than the other Links', although at the cost of power, all his projectiles launch up and you can toss a bomb up to bait an airdodge and get a guaranteed Uair by chasing it.

 

[N8than]

Like Deluge said YL's pretty good at it. His Uair is several frames faster than the other Links', although at the cost of power, all his projectiles launch up and you can toss a bomb up to bait an airdodge and get a guaranteed Uair by chasing it.

That's what i suspected, but i wanted to know from a young link main.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I don't know the matchups well at all, but I feel Mac may do well against some of the heavies, namely Charizard, Bowser and Ganondorf, because of their lack of range.

These characters also have powerful throws to easily get Little Mac off stage, and can use their massive hitboxes to make edgeguarding Mac even easier then it is for other characters. This is also one of a handful of match ups that makes Charizard's Flamethrower actually deadly at the ledge.

Theoretically, I can see Mac doing well vs heavyweights. Mac's fast and powerful in CQC and heavies aren't known for being strong jugglers.

Charizard, DK and Bowser all have great ground-based juggling thanks to good ground mobility and massive hitboxes for frame trapping. Look at how massive their up tilts are for instance. Ganondorf lacks mobility but you've still got to respect his Wizard's Foot and Up Smash.

I mean, that's one of the reasons people keep saying "heavies have strong advantage states". They hate being above your head, but when you're above there's they're able to throw out their massive, deadly hitboxes without much fear.

 

[Jgod]

Theoretically, I can see Mac doing well vs heavyweights. Mac's fast and powerful in CQC and heavies aren't known for being strong jugglers.

What do they need to juggle for? Mac has a counter he hypotheticaly still has more of a landing option than many others. What he doesnt have is a good recovery and his weight is rather light. I wouldnt generalize him being good against super heavies or even regular heavies. Specific members of those rankings? Sure.

If he had more ground power or honestly just a better recovery then sure. With their weight they have opportunity to win neutral once or twice and then kill him legitimately off 1 or 2 wins because of his bad recovery and weight.

 

[DelugeFGC]

What do they need to juggle for? Mac has a counter he hypotheticaly still has more of a landing option than many others. What he doesnt have is a good recovery and his weight is rather light. I wouldnt generalize him being good against super heavies or even regular heavies. Specific members of those rankings? Sure.

If he had more ground power or honestly just a better recovery then sure. With their weight they have opportunity to win neutral once or twice and then kill him legitimately off 1 or 2 wins because of his bad recovery and weight.

1. Getting Slip Counter off isn't always easy, it doesn't come out fast and if you're in hitstun it's not an option period.

2. Even if you get it off and they hit you, you might whiff and that allows easy punishing right after.

3. Due to it being the only real landing option Mac is ever gonna have, it's very easy to read Slip Counter, especially if you at any point see the beginning of the animation come out before you cancel it with a hit, stop and wait.


Slip Counter is a terrible landing option, it just so happens to be Mac's best option compared to everything else. Mac's biggest problem doesn't just mean he's easy to get offstage and gimp, it also leaves him totally helpless while airborne.

 

[AxelVDP]

fact 1: Lil Mac matchup depend heavily on the stage, more than any other character, it really depends on what the opponents bans
fact 2: back in smash4 I'd argue that heavies (barring DDD) actually beat Mac, seeing as they all got better (and Mac got -worse-) I don't really see them losing the matchup

 

[Rizen]

fact 1: Lil Mac matchup depend heavily on the stage, more than any other character, it really depends on what the opponents bans
fact 2: back in smash4 I'd argue that heavies (barring DDD) actually beat Mac, seeing as they all got better (and Mac got -worse-) I don't really see them losing the matchup

Do you think Mac might find success as a stage counterpick character? Someone you bring out if the opponent CPs FD for example?


I think heavies in general got better but Bowser and DK losing Ding Dong was a huge blow to them. I'm less afraid of fighting them in SSBU than SSB4.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Do you think Mac might find success as a stage counterpick character? Someone you bring out if the opponent CPs FD for example?


I think heavies in general got better but Bowser and DK losing Ding Dong was a huge blow to them. I'm less afraid of fighting them in SSBU than SSB4.

I am actually more scared on fighting them in this game than in SSB4. Losing Ding Dong is a little ouchie, but they (particularly Bowser) can actually swing in midair. Whenever I enter the air, I don't feel safe with a Bowser f-air suddenly comes out of nowhere and sends me offstage.

 

[AxelVDP]

Do you think Mac might find success as a stage counterpick character? Someone you bring out if the opponent CPs FD for example?

He certainly would fare better as a counterpick character than a "solo" character, but ehh I dunno, I really don't feel Little Mac in this game as he is now. I also have yet to learn which stages are good against which characters (don't really play Mac anymore, especially in tourneys) so I couldn't tell you

Heavies having good jumpsquats and generally good grabs really make a difference in the matchup imho, can't really bully them with speed and frame data anymore (and DDD improved inhale is a real pain for Mac)

 

[Repli.Cant]

Bowser losing uthrow uair is negligible in the bigger picture imo. Fire Breath does absurd damage with a large area in front of him and can almost make up for him taking 50% off a combo when you get stuck in it once at point blank and take 45% yourself. Up b OoS is still good as ever, and nair comboing into stuff like bair, an extremely fast and powerful move that can also autocancel off a shorthop, for a kill is amazing.

He's a fastfaller now, and with the improved speed buffs across the board, him running towards you looks like he just got a call from the school that Bowser Jr. was being a brat and he's on his way to set him straight. Coupled with a frame 6 side b that takes advantage of platforms and forces you offstage or above him, where his uair still covers a fantastic area above him, and his ledge trapping game is something fierce, he definitely puts up a good challenge for anyone that can't exploit is large frame and heavy weight right away.

Also Tough Guy is hella tilting lmao. Rapid jabs against him is pointless as he punishes you with an fsmash and being able to tank weaker hits at lower percents lets him get a punish off of being punished.

Tldr; Bowser was given way more tools to work around neutral with, giving up his lame playstyle in s4 which revolved around him fishing for a grab for ez reward in exchange. He is definitely something to be feared, but is held back because of general big boy problems and top and high tiers like exploiting that to the max.

 

[MG_3989]

So after watching MVD and Awestin play again in Winners and Grands tonight I honestly think the Ness vs Snake MU is even or at most 55/45 in Ness's favor, at least at the highest level. It's probably more in Ness's favor at a lower level of play but a Snake main who knows how to fight Ness makes it a pretty even MU. MVD continually was able to punish Awestin for his use of magnet and utilt gives Snake just enough juice to make the MU not completely skewed in Ness's favor

The thing is the Ness vs Snake MU is full of mind games on both sides and is extremely momentum based which is why I think it's even or volatile and only 55/45 at best in Ness's favor. It's obvious that MVD was heavily prepared for Ness and Awestin though. I think a Snake main who isn't prepared for Ness would be in for a world of trouble and that MU would be heavily in Ness's favor but you're not gonna see that from top level Snakes. They know they need to prepare for Ness and MVD gives them a blueprint in his sets with Awestin

Just wanted to drop by to say this, also if you didn't watch Awestin vs MVD tonight (both winners and grands) I highly recommend checking them out. It's probably my favorite rivalry in Smash right now and you can see MVD and Awestin pushing both Snake and Ness to their limits tonight

All that aside I'm convinced both are solidly high tier characters and I believe Snake may be top tier (if not top tier he is top 10 imo)

 

[Allkings]

for now my best character is / (and a pocket ) who do you think can compensate his weakness?

 

[bc1910]

So after watching MVD and Awestin play again in Winners and Grands tonight I honestly think the Ness vs Snake MU is even or at most 55/45 in Ness's favor, at least at the highest level. It's probably more in Ness's favor at a lower level of play but a Snake main who knows how to fight Ness makes it a pretty even MU. MVD continually was able to punish Awestin for his use of magnet and utilt gives Snake just enough juice to make the MU not completely skewed in Ness's favor

The thing is the Ness vs Snake MU is full of mind games on both sides and is extremely momentum based which is why I think it's even or volatile and only 55/45 at best in Ness's favor. It's obvious that MVD was heavily prepared for Ness and Awestin though. I think a Snake main who isn't prepared for Ness would be in for a world of trouble and that MU would be heavily in Ness's favor but you're not gonna see that from top level Snakes. They know they need to prepare for Ness and MVD gives them a blueprint in his sets with Awestin

Just wanted to drop by to say this, also if you didn't watch Awestin vs MVD tonight (both winners and grands) I highly recommend checking them out. It's probably my favorite rivalry in Smash right now and you can see MVD and Awestin pushing both Snake and Ness to their limits tonight

All that aside I'm convinced both are solidly high tier characters and I believe Snake may be top tier (if not top tier he is top 10 imo)

I think this MU is even too. I haven’t seen this particular set but in my search for a Snake counterpick I’ve watched plenty of their other sets. These two go back and forth regularly and almost all of their sets are 3-2 victories for one or the other. Ness’s CQC and mobility are both fairly average and Snake has very powerful attacks up close in terms of raw damage and launch power, so he can be comfortable fighting Ness in this way without grenades. MVD appears to be getting more comfortable with this playstyle (something that Snake players like Ally are traditionally better at). Also, Nikita is legitimately a massive problem for Ness. His recovery is decent distance-wise with just his massive double jump and air dodge, but it’s incredibly predictable. In the recovery case, magnet cancelling his double jump doesn’t help him at all. I would like to see Awestin try to Nair the Nikita more though.

For what it’s worth I think G&W vs Snake will end up being a similar story. MVD had no idea what to do in the MU and got suitably destroyed by Maister, but again Snake’s impressive CQC should save him against a character as light as G&W. This MU will probably end up being slightly in G&W’s favour due to his stronger combo game and bucket being more threatening than magnet overall, but it won’t be the whitewash that many are expecting.

I’ve actually seen discussion that Lucas is a better Snake counterpick than Ness. He has a better recovery, more powerful (traditional) zoning and similar tricks with magnet to hamper grenade usage even though his magnet is worse overall.

I don’t think Snake is top tier or top 10 though, he fares really well against the best characters but has some iffy MUs and potential hard CPs as you go further down the cast. Some characters are really well-built to deal with him and can be pocketed relatively easily, for example Mii Gunner is a simple zoner who absolutely destroys Snake in my experience (with or without the magnet custom). I’d put Snake as one of the best high tiers, top 15ish, but there are quite a few more well rounded characters I’d put above him.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I feel like any viability to Mac in a tournament setting is gonna be limited to doubles, or if you manage to find a FFA. In singles, even as a CP, he has way too many holes to be consistent anywhere.

 

[Y2Kay]

I think this MU is even too. I haven’t seen this particular set but in my search for a Snake counterpick I’ve watched plenty of their other sets. These two go back and forth regularly and almost all of their sets are 3-2 victories for one or the other. Ness’s CQC and mobility are both fairly average and Snake has very powerful attacks up close in terms of raw damage and launch power, so he can be comfortable fighting Ness in this way without grenades. MVD appears to be getting more comfortable with this playstyle (something that Snake players like Ally are traditionally better at). Also, Nikita is legitimately a massive problem for Ness. His recovery is decent distance-wise with just his massive double jump and air dodge, but it’s incredibly predictable. In the recovery case, magnet cancelling his double jump doesn’t help him at all. I would like to see Awestin try to Nair the Nikita more though.

For what it’s worth I think G&W vs Snake will end up being a similar story. MVD had no idea what to do in the MU and got suitably destroyed by Maister, but again Snake’s impressive CQC should save him against a character as light as G&W. This MU will probably end up being slightly in G&W’s favour due to his stronger combo game and bucket being more threatening than magnet overall, but it won’t be the whitewash that many are expecting.

I’ve actually seen discussion that Lucas is a better Snake counterpick than Ness. He has a better recovery, more powerful (traditional) zoning and similar tricks with magnet to hamper grenade usage even though his magnet is worse overall.

I don’t think Snake is top tier or top 10 though, he fares really well against the best characters but has some iffy MUs and potential hard CPs as you go further down the cast. Some characters are really well-built to deal with him and can be pocketed relatively easily, for example Mii Gunner is a simple zoner who absolutely destroys Snake in my experience (with or without the magnet custom). I’d put Snake as one of the best high tiers, top 15ish, but there are quite a few more well rounded characters I’d put above him.

If ur looking for a secondary for Gren, GnW or Mario is prob ur best choice. Fox is good too.

 

[DelugeFGC]

If ur looking for a secondary for Gren, GnW or Mario is prob ur best choice. Fox is good too.

Fox is genuinely pretty legit, nerfs from Sm4sh aside I think Ult alone was a massive buff for him due to the game speed being upped, disadvantage being heavier, combo game, etc. Definitely not a bad character to keep on the payroll so to speak, I personally think he's superior to Wolf and the meta will see them shift placements.

 

[Game7a1]

For what it’s worth I think G&W vs Snake will end up being a similar story. MVD had no idea what to do in the MU and got suitably destroyed by Maister, but again Snake’s impressive CQC should save him against a character as light as G&W. This MU will probably end up being slightly in G&W’s favour due to his stronger combo game and bucket being more threatening than magnet overall, but it won’t be the whitewash that many are expecting.

I wouldn't say MVD was clueless against Maister in the MU. MVD and Maister had a Bo5 set on MVD's stream a few weeks before, and while it went as expected (Maister 3-0), MVD likely used the knowledge from that set to help him against Maister at Full Bloom. The problem I saw in the set was that MVD had the right gameplan in game 1 but abandoned it in games 2 and 3 (one too many buckets in game 1, and Maister getting the right plays in the first stock of games 2 and 3 are likely the reasons). Snake is supposed to use more of his CQC against G&W while lightly using explosives, even when he's behind.

That being said, I have heard that Pathoran (MVDA Snake) has beaten Dingus Joe a good amount recently. I should check those sets to see what each players are doing.

 

[Rizen]

Fun facts: YL's bomb throws are reflected by bucket. The only way G&W can absorb them is to bucket the explosion. The same applies to TL's bombs. Fire arrows don't count as energy and are reflected but still count as fire and can detonate Link's bombs.

 

[Game7a1]

Fun facts: YL's bomb throws are reflected by bucket. The only way G&W can absorb them is to bucket the explosion. The same applies to TL's bombs. Fire arrows don't count as energy and are reflected but still count as fire and can detonate Link's bombs.

Sort of. If G&W faces away from the bomb, he should be able to bucket the bombs. Same applies to stuff like Snake's Up-Smash and Nikita and (Dark) Samus' Bombs. The reflector is the bucket itself, while the absorber is, well, all of G&W.

 

[bc1910]

If ur looking for a secondary for Gren, GnW or Mario is prob ur best choice. Fox is good too.

The MUs I personally want to cover are Snake and Mega Man (they’re not awful, I’m not actually convinced Gren loses either MU, but not worth the effort when so many better counterpicks exist) and maybe the thunder rats.

My problem is that I’ve never actually picked a character for “practical” counterpicking purposes in any fighting game I’ve played, I’ve always just played who I like. My best secondary is Wolf since I enjoy him and I played him in Brawl but he doesn’t cover the MUs I want to cover particularly well, although I find him very good against Mega Man.

How does Mario fare against Snake and Mega Man? I know he does well against the thunder rats and I do enjoy playing him. Fox I’m also considering, he fits my playstyle really well, I think his Snake MU could be more convincing though, I see it in a similar way to the Ness MU where it’s tough for Snake but not actually losing once they learn it.

G&W does cover the MUs I want to cover but I really don’t enjoy playing him so he’s out for me.

Ness is kinda fun but as mentioned I don’t think he covers Snake all that well and he seems bad against Mega Man. I’m considering Lucas though.

Mii Gunner has actually been working really well for me, he decimates Snake and does fairly well against Mega Man and the rats. My only problem is that Miis are somewhat impractical to have as secondaries rather than mains in bracket. I’d either have to set him up at the start of every set (and potentially have to set up multiple movesets since all 3 down Bs are good) despite not planning to use him much, or ask everyone whether they use Snake/MM before the match until I got to know the players. Miis can sometimes be subject to weird custom rules as well. These are logistical issues though which I could probably work around.

I find Young Link really fun who apparently beats Snake and Pichu, I can see him doing well against Pika and MM too so he might be the answer. I also just think he’s crazy good/underrated in general.

 

[Rizen]

I haven't played vs Snake or MM but IMO YL slightly beats Pichu and goes even with Pikachu. Theoretically he has the tools to combat Snake and MM's tools. More and more I'm seeing YL as a counterpick character. He's also great vs super heavyweights.

Sort of. If G&W faces away from the bomb, he should be able to bucket the bombs. Same applies to stuff like Snake's Up-Smash and Nikita and (Dark) Samus' Bombs. The reflector is the bucket itself, while the absorber is, well, all of G&W.

Weird. I didn't know it worked that way.
*The more you know*

 

[DelugeFGC]

I haven't played vs Snake or MM but IMO YL slightly beats Pichu and goes even with Pikachu. Theoretically he has the tools to combat Snake and MM's tools. More and more I'm seeing YL as a counterpick character. He's also great vs super heavyweights.


Weird. I didn't know it worked that way.
*The more you know*

In my experience YL comes out slightly on top of MM and goes about even with Snake. MM just doesn't have the best all-round CQC tools in comparison to YL and while they can both give each other problems at range, YL's shield does act as defense to a point and YL tends to edge him out up close due to speed and more consistent moves when grounded.

Snake is another story, hell Snake may even edge YL out, but if so not by much,

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

The MUs I personally want to cover are Snake and Mega Man (they’re not awful, I’m not actually convinced Gren loses either MU, but not worth the effort when so many better counterpicks exist) and maybe the thunder rats.

My problem is that I’ve never actually picked a character for “practical” counterpicking purposes in any fighting game I’ve played, I’ve always just played who I like. My best secondary is Wolf since I enjoy him and I played him in Brawl but he doesn’t cover the MUs I want to cover particularly well, although I find him very good against Mega Man.

How does Mario fare against Snake and Mega Man? I know he does well against the thunder rats and I do enjoy playing him. Fox I’m also considering, he fits my playstyle really well, I think his Snake MU could be more convincing though, I see it in a similar way to the Ness MU where it’s tough for Snake but not actually losing once they learn it.

G&W does cover the MUs I want to cover but I really don’t enjoy playing him so he’s out for me.

Ness is kinda fun but as mentioned I don’t think he covers Snake all that well and he seems bad against Mega Man. I’m considering Lucas though.

Mii Gunner has actually been working really well for me, he decimates Snake and does fairly well against Mega Man and the rats. My only problem is that Miis are somewhat impractical to have as secondaries rather than mains in bracket. I’d either have to set him up at the start of every set (and potentially have to set up multiple movesets since all 3 down Bs are good) despite not planning to use him much, or ask everyone whether they use Snake/MM before the match until I got to know the players. Miis can sometimes be subject to weird custom rules as well. These are logistical issues though which I could probably work around.

I find Young Link really fun who apparently beats Snake and Pichu, I can see him doing well against Pika and MM too so he might be the answer. I also just think he’s crazy good/underrated in general.

I think it depends on who you ask but Ylink is without a doubt one of the best characters in this game. It's a shame that he's not played more that the highest levels. That aside if you're picking for MU based counter you should see who does the best against them and then play them to see if you enjoy them. Or you can just keep grinding the MU or you can just hope to get lucky in bracket.

 

[MG_3989]

The MUs I personally want to cover are Snake and Mega Man (they’re not awful, I’m not actually convinced Gren loses either MU, but not worth the effort when so many better counterpicks exist) and maybe the thunder rats.

My problem is that I’ve never actually picked a character for “practical” counterpicking purposes in any fighting game I’ve played, I’ve always just played who I like. My best secondary is Wolf since I enjoy him and I played him in Brawl but he doesn’t cover the MUs I want to cover particularly well, although I find him very good against Mega Man.

How does Mario fare against Snake and Mega Man? I know he does well against the thunder rats and I do enjoy playing him. Fox I’m also considering, he fits my playstyle really well, I think his Snake MU could be more convincing though, I see it in a similar way to the Ness MU where it’s tough for Snake but not actually losing once they learn it.

G&W does cover the MUs I want to cover but I really don’t enjoy playing him so he’s out for me.

Ness is kinda fun but as mentioned I don’t think he covers Snake all that well and he seems bad against Mega Man. I’m considering Lucas though.

Mii Gunner has actually been working really well for me, he decimates Snake and does fairly well against Mega Man and the rats. My only problem is that Miis are somewhat impractical to have as secondaries rather than mains in bracket. I’d either have to set him up at the start of every set (and potentially have to set up multiple movesets since all 3 down Bs are good) despite not planning to use him much, or ask everyone whether they use Snake/MM before the match until I got to know the players. Miis can sometimes be subject to weird custom rules as well. These are logistical issues though which I could probably work around.

I find Young Link really fun who apparently beats Snake and Pichu, I can see him doing well against Pika and MM too so he might be the answer. I also just think he’s crazy good/underrated in general.

Yeah Ness would be your answer against the thunder rats but Snake seems even and very volatile right now to me and Ness vs MM is probably a +1 for MM (haven't played a good one yet but that's the general consensus). Lucas while being a worse character and having a worse magnet than Ness could be your answer though. I can see him doing better in the Snake and MM MUs but idk how he does against the rats. The problem with Lucas is I don't think we've seen a high level Lucas play against a lot of these characters so you'd have to do your own testing on this

Personally I'd go with YL in your situation. He's super fun and seems to do well enough in all those MUs. He has the same representation problem as Lucas though so we haven't seen him in a ton of those high level MUs

 

[DelugeFGC]

I think it depends on who you ask but Ylink is without a doubt one of the best characters in this game. It's a shame that he's not played more that the highest levels. That aside if you're picking for MU based counter you should see who does the best against them and then play them to see if you enjoy them. Or you can just keep grinding the MU or you can just hope to get lucky in bracket.

I'd call YL one of the best counterpicks in the game and definitely a solid high-tier, likely the best Link outright.. but I don't know if I'd call him top 10 or anything. As good as he is, he does have clear issues.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'd call YL one of the best counterpicks in the game and definitely a solid high-tier, likely the best Link outright.. but I don't know if I'd call him top 10 or anything. As good as he is, he does have clear issues.

He's top 10 at worst and he could potentially be the best character in the game. If people are willing to put that work into him then they're definitely going to be rewarded. I don't really believe his weaknesses are too mucb to hold him back. One thing I do know is that whenever I see a good ylink he just looks like a ridiculous character. Also I do believe that he's going to fly under the radar for a while so if you're worried about nerfs and stuff he should be fine.

 

[DelugeFGC]

He's top 10 at worst and he could potentially be the best character in the game. If people are willing to put that work into him then they're definitely going to be rewarded. I don't really believe his weaknesses are too mucb to hold him back. One thing I do know is that whenever I see a good ylink he just looks like a ridiculous character. Also I do believe that he's going to fly under the radar for a while so if you're worried about nerfs and stuff he should be fine.

There is literally, absolutely, totally.. no way. No character that can struggle to kill as much as he can, no character that has the few poor MU's he has, no character that can get outspaced as bad as he sometimes can by the other swordies.. is ever gonna be top 10, let alone best. Calling YL that is just, lunacy, imo. He's no where near close to that good.

YL has a meh disadvantage, lacking kill options compared to several other characters, lacking range compared to other sword characters, dies earlier than several characters, doesn't have astounding combo game, etc, etc. He's very good, but he's not THAT good my man. YL is a fantastic counterpick, YL is a beast in neutral in a LOT of MU's.. but he's just not top 10 material. It's not in his genes.

If you don't think his weaknesses can hold him back much, you've never played some of his iffy-ish MU's in higher level play. YL can SERIOUSLY struggle sometimes. I'm speaking as someone who has used him in tournament several times, he has too many problems to be top 10, god forbid 'best'.

 

[blackghost]

He's top 10 at worst and he could potentially be the best character in the game. If people are willing to put that work into him then they're definitely going to be rewarded. I don't really believe his weaknesses are too mucb to hold him back. One thing I do know is that whenever I see a good ylink he just looks like a ridiculous character. Also I do believe that he's going to fly under the radar for a while so if you're worried about nerfs and stuff he should be fine.

YL may be underrated but as of now there is no chance he s anywhere near the best in the game.