Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Ziodyne 21]

Frozen 3-1 Light

Geez Frozen is on a tear at Collision right now. He beat both Cosmos and Light to get top 8 winners

edit 'd

 

[NotLiquid]

Frozen 2-1 Cosmos Cosmos in an upset. But a very close match.

On this note, Frozen now sent Light to losers as well (3 - 1), and that one wasn't very close at all during game four.

A new challenger approaches.

 

[Untouch]

Are turnips really used for killing anyways (outside of the stitch of course)? I see them used more for offstage gimping.
Overall I think the differences will need to be labbed, Daisy should lose some low% combos and gain some mid% combos, but the turnips are pretty low kb anyways, so Daisy may not lose out that much.

 

[ProfessorVincent]

I may be the vocal minority here but I truly cannot find Bayonetta viable in any sort of competitive play, and Tamim getting 5th at Glitch was nothing more than a fluke. I understand some are very anti Bayonetta, and I am very vocal towards my side of the argument, but I want to discuss this nonetheless factually. Although I hold SB to a very high regard so I know y'all won't rip me to shreds.

Bayonetta, as a whole, was so dominant in Smash 4 for obvious reasons. These reasons needed to be nerfed and I have no issues with them:

• Frame 4 Witch Twist that gave you the best followups in the game.
• Fair 1 which, in combination with Witch Twist, made mix-ups into True Combos
• Witch Time, which was outright broken
• Obvious other reasons but these three are the most apparent

Going into Ultimate, all three of these were nerfed heavily. Witch Twist is now frame 6, among some other changes (namely it being more susceptible to DI), Fair 1 has so much lag that your only option is to autocancel into Fair23, and Witch Time is... well I assume you've seen.

The big issue here is that Nintendo went further... and further, and further, and didn't really know when to stop. Smash 4 Bayonetta is quite possibly the most flawed a "broken" character can be because she has definite weaknesses that, while they can be avoided, are still there. Nintendo failed to address her biggest flaws in the process of nerfing her, so now you have a character void of her broken stuff (good), void of what made her outstanding (oh), and her bad jank still unpatched (sad).

The character had several flaws from Smash 4 that still haven't been fixed:

• Multihits: Bayonetta's multihits are possibly the worst connecting ones in the game if it wasn't for, say, Ken. Up tilt doesn't connect properly if you hit them either: at a specific angle, or with enough rage. Utilt is possibly her best combo starter and it is inconsistent. There is a video of Tamim losing a stock to MKLeo's Ike because Utilt did a flawed hit, his opponent recovered before the move was over, and smacked Bayo several cities over. Side Tilt has the same issue likewise, where Ftilt 2 and 3 will not connect. This is especially true if your opponent isn't hit by Ftilt 1, they get hit by 2, and 3 just does it's thing. Witch Twist, despite being much less susceptible to SDI, can still be mashed out of. Hell, the move just sometimes won't carry your opponent into the later hits of the move. Thank you single hit witch twist, very cool. Finally, you have Heel Slide, which can be teched and/ or DI'ed out of. This on its own is poor, but seeing how every multihit in the game seems to work better than in 4 it is just depressing.
• Smash Attacks: I legit didn't know how they could somehow not make them better, but instead worse. Here we are though. All 3 Smash Attacks have a reduced charge multiplier of 1.2x, inside and outside of witch time. They clank with literally everything. EVERYTHING. Fsmash has 2 less frames of startup, but because they didn't fully compensate the move it has an additional frame of end lag vs the previous game. My personal favorite here: Fsmash still has a goddamn blind spot right in front of Bayonetta. And because her smashes are stationary, running into her makes Bayo move backwards but the fist stay in place. You can literally outrun her smashes thanks to the blindspot.
• Landing Lag/ Recovery Frames: They reduced landing lag on 3 of her moves: Uair (10 to 8, which is great), Fair (14 to 12, which still isn't enough), and Bair (12 to 8, which is really really nice). But they didn't do enough in a game where Shulk's Nair is frame 6 for landing. They made Dair 2 frames slower. Downwards Afterburner Kick can no longer autocancel, and it gives her 20 frames of landing lag if you don't do the landing hitbox. Her combos have this much landing lag based on the combination: 19, 25 (-1 from 4), 30, 32, 40, and 42 (-1 from 4). It's such a petty difference that it might as well not exist, where heavyweights can't undergo the amount of lag that Bayonetta receives from touching the ground. Held Nair and Held Uair have 8 and 6 more frames of landing lag, but it makes zero sense as to why. In Smash 4, this would be a noticable nerf, as the slower gameplay and safer options made held Nair a big part of her kit. But in Ultimate, these moves are simply mediocre without the nerf (not to mention their nonexistant knockback and high FAF without landing), and with the nerf are literally unusable. They also added lag to held Fair and Bair for some god forsaken reason.
• Shield Pressure: Bayonetta won't break your shield, she has no way of doing so. Her throws are terrible. You can sit in shield and eat grabs until she can Fthrow you at 165% at the ledge. Side B not crossing up or doing the second hit doesn't help either.
• Bullet Arts: Honestly these might as well be taunts if we aren't counting whiffed jab 1234 and Fsmash.

You have the "**** Bayonetta in particular nerfs"

• Airdodges: Bayonetta is one of two characters in the game to have a "reduced airdodge speed". The other is Little Mac. Thank you Nintendo, very cool. In addition, Bat Within always teleports Bayonetta downwards, meaning offstage this could kill her, and onstage this makes her recovery predictable. Bat Within is overrated: it can teleport you to the blastzone, you still take damage, it is predictable, Pokemon Trainer has a frame 1 dodge that is like 10x better than Bat Within.
• Smash Multiplier: Already stated above, she only has a 1.2X charge. This is only for Bayo, unless you want to count Olimar not being able to charge his smash attacks.
• Bullet Climax: Every charge move in the game, minus BC and Limit, has been buffed to be easier to charge, with lower penalties to charge. Bullet Climax takes longer to charge, you can no longer cancel during charging, and you can only hold it for 5 seconds before it autoreleases. Not a major nerf, but a middle finger to Bayo nonetheless.

You have the massive, seemingly uncalled for nerfs:

• Up Air and Neutral Air cannot kill at 245% center stage. Held Nair and Uair are borderline useless unless you go super offstage with held Uair. It is much harder to ladder people, and now it is impossible to finish them with Uair. The move is a great combo tool, but changing a move from killing at 120% to 200+% is just... wow. Both of these moves should kill at 200%, bare minimum, and they don't even do that.
• Bayonetta's Side B is pretty awful. No true combos off it unless you are at like 10%, the second hit sometimes isn't true, you can sometimes tech between hits, you can shield it and punish. The move is 71 frames one hit, 72 frames both hits. The move relies entirely on the second hit to be usable, and the removal of it on shield makes it dead in the water. It is all risk minimal reward.
• Dair kills later (on and offstage), has more FAF, has more landing lag, and still doesn't have consistent air into landing hitbox.
• Bair kills later, has more FAF, and has a worsened sweetspot
• Witch Time: This needed to be nerfed. But it still had issues that weren't fixed. It's now a frame 8 counter, with 60 FAF, that only nets you anything meaty past 90%, you can be outprioritized in your own counter, early percents are useless, more than 3 whiffs are useless, etc. Any other counter does more damage at lower percents, and kills earlier/ more consistently.

There is more stuff but I've written this for like 30 minutes and I'm tired. I'm here for a discussion, not a roast. Let's have some fun.

Welp. Few messages are clearer to a gaming company than a crowd booing your game at E3.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Something cool to note: two Yoshi players, Suarez and Raptor, are guaranteed 9th in this tournament. Pretty good results overall for Yoshi.

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

Welp. Few messages are clearer to a gaming company than a crowd booing your game at E3.

What are you trying to establish here?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Now Marrs 3-1 Nairo

This C-tier tourmament has had a surprising amount of upsets and good/interesting matches, and some surpisingb drama but this is not where to talk about it lol

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

Added this to my Bayo thing:

• Witch Twist: Can still be SDI'ed out of, DI hurts it more, single hit witch twist is terrible while it was good in 4, the grounded hitbox doesn't hit short characters (Pichu, Pikachu, Jiggly, Kirby), and it doesn't snap the ledge... it a game where nearly everything snaps the ledge at some point.

The worse hitbox on WT makes the electric mice matchup pretty terrible now that she has no OoS options against top tiers

 

[The_Bookworm]

Now Marrs 3-1 Nairo

This C-tier tourmament has had a surprising amount of upsets and good matches, and drama...

Another instance of SSB4 players losing to a user of their former main. Interesting to behold.

I may be the vocal minority here but I truly cannot find Bayonetta viable in any sort of competitive play, and Tamim getting 5th at Glitch was nothing more than a fluke. I understand some are very anti Bayonetta, and I am very vocal towards my side of the argument, but I want to discuss this nonetheless factually. Although I hold SB to a very high regard so I know y'all won't rip me to shreds.

Bayonetta, as a whole, was so dominant in Smash 4 for obvious reasons. These reasons needed to be nerfed and I have no issues with them:

• Frame 4 Witch Twist that gave you the best followups in the game.
• Fair 1 which, in combination with Witch Twist, made mix-ups into True Combos
• Witch Time, which was outright broken
• Obvious other reasons but these three are the most apparent

Going into Ultimate, all three of these were nerfed heavily. Witch Twist is now frame 6, among some other changes (namely it being more susceptible to DI), Fair 1 has so much lag that your only option is to autocancel into Fair23, and Witch Time is... well I assume you've seen.

The big issue here is that Nintendo went further... and further, and further, and didn't really know when to stop. Smash 4 Bayonetta is quite possibly the most flawed a "broken" character can be because she has definite weaknesses that, while they can be avoided, are still there. Nintendo failed to address her biggest flaws in the process of nerfing her, so now you have a character void of her broken stuff (good), void of what made her outstanding (oh), and her bad jank still unpatched (sad).

The character had several flaws from Smash 4 that still haven't been fixed:

• Multihits: Bayonetta's multihits are possibly the worst connecting ones in the game if it wasn't for, say, Ken. Up tilt doesn't connect properly if you hit them either: at a specific angle, or with enough rage. Utilt is possibly her best combo starter and it is inconsistent. There is a video of Tamim losing a stock to MKLeo's Ike because Utilt did a flawed hit, his opponent recovered before the move was over, and smacked Bayo several cities over. Side Tilt has the same issue likewise, where Ftilt 2 and 3 will not connect. This is especially true if your opponent isn't hit by Ftilt 1, they get hit by 2, and 3 just does it's thing. Witch Twist, despite being much less susceptible to SDI, can still be mashed out of. Hell, the move just sometimes won't carry your opponent into the later hits of the move. Thank you single hit witch twist, very cool. Finally, you have Heel Slide, which can be teched and/ or DI'ed out of. This on its own is poor, but seeing how every multihit in the game seems to work better than in 4 it is just depressing.
• Smash Attacks: I legit didn't know how they could somehow not make them better, but instead worse. Here we are though. All 3 Smash Attacks have a reduced charge multiplier of 1.2x, inside and outside of witch time. They clank with literally everything. EVERYTHING. Fsmash has 2 less frames of startup, but because they didn't fully compensate the move it has an additional frame of end lag vs the previous game. My personal favorite here: Fsmash still has a goddamn blind spot right in front of Bayonetta. And because her smashes are stationary, running into her makes Bayo move backwards but the fist stay in place. You can literally outrun her smashes thanks to the blindspot.
• Landing Lag/ Recovery Frames: They reduced landing lag on 3 of her moves: Uair (10 to 8, which is great), Fair (14 to 12, which still isn't enough), and Bair (12 to 8, which is really really nice). But they didn't do enough in a game where Shulk's Nair is frame 6 for landing. They made Dair 2 frames slower. Downwards Afterburner Kick can no longer autocancel, and it gives her 20 frames of landing lag if you don't do the landing hitbox. Her combos have this much landing lag based on the combination: 19, 25 (-1 from 4), 30, 32, 40, and 42 (-1 from 4). It's such a petty difference that it might as well not exist, where heavyweights can't undergo the amount of lag that Bayonetta receives from touching the ground. Held Nair and Held Uair have 8 and 6 more frames of landing lag, but it makes zero sense as to why. In Smash 4, this would be a noticable nerf, as the slower gameplay and safer options made held Nair a big part of her kit. But in Ultimate, these moves are simply mediocre without the nerf (not to mention their nonexistant knockback and high FAF without landing), and with the nerf are literally unusable. They also added lag to held Fair and Bair for some god forsaken reason.
• Shield Pressure: Bayonetta won't break your shield, she has no way of doing so. Her throws are terrible. You can sit in shield and eat grabs until she can Fthrow you at 165% at the ledge. Side B not crossing up or doing the second hit doesn't help either.
• Bullet Arts: Honestly these might as well be taunts if we aren't counting whiffed jab 1234 and Fsmash.

You have the "**** Bayonetta in particular nerfs"

• Airdodges: Bayonetta is one of two characters in the game to have a "reduced airdodge speed". The other is Little Mac. Thank you Nintendo, very cool. In addition, Bat Within always teleports Bayonetta downwards, meaning offstage this could kill her, and onstage this makes her recovery predictable. Bat Within is overrated: it can teleport you to the blastzone, you still take damage, it is predictable, Pokemon Trainer has a frame 1 dodge that is like 10x better than Bat Within.
• Smash Multiplier: Already stated above, she only has a 1.2X charge. This is only for Bayo, unless you want to count Olimar not being able to charge his smash attacks.
• Bullet Climax: Every charge move in the game, minus BC and Limit, has been buffed to be easier to charge, with lower penalties to charge. Bullet Climax takes longer to charge, you can no longer cancel during charging, and you can only hold it for 5 seconds before it autoreleases. Not a major nerf, but a middle finger to Bayo nonetheless.

You have the massive, seemingly uncalled for nerfs:

• Up Air and Neutral Air cannot kill at 245% center stage. Held Nair and Uair are borderline useless unless you go super offstage with held Uair. It is much harder to ladder people, and now it is impossible to finish them with Uair. The move is a great combo tool, but changing a move from killing at 120% to 200+% is just... wow. Both of these moves should kill at 200%, bare minimum, and they don't even do that.
• Bayonetta's Side B is pretty awful. No true combos off it unless you are at like 10%, the second hit sometimes isn't true, you can sometimes tech between hits, you can shield it and punish. The move is 71 frames one hit, 72 frames both hits. The move relies entirely on the second hit to be usable, and the removal of it on shield makes it dead in the water. It is all risk minimal reward.
• Dair kills later (on and offstage), has more FAF, has more landing lag, and still doesn't have consistent air into landing hitbox.
• Bair kills later, has more FAF, and has a worsened sweetspot
• Witch Time: This needed to be nerfed. But it still had issues that weren't fixed. It's now a frame 8 counter, with 60 FAF, that only nets you anything meaty past 90%, you can be outprioritized in your own counter, early percents are useless, more than 3 whiffs are useless, etc. Any other counter does more damage at lower percents, and kills earlier/ more consistently.

There is more stuff but I've written this for like 30 minutes and I'm tired. I'm here for a discussion, not a roast. Let's have some fun.

Added this to my Bayo thing:

• Witch Twist: Can still be SDI'ed out of, DI hurts it more, single hit witch twist is terrible while it was good in 4, the grounded hitbox doesn't hit short characters (Pichu, Pikachu, Jiggly, Kirby), and it doesn't snap the ledge... it a game where nearly everything snaps the ledge at some point.

The worse hitbox on WT makes the electric mice matchup pretty terrible now that she has no OoS options against top tiers

You pretty much summed up my thoughts about Bayo in two posts lol.

Another thing that benefits the Bayo player, and honestly the main reason behind Bayo's somewhat good placing on the game's first month, is that people are kind of overexposed on how to fight SSB4 Bayo since she is a relatively common threat, while being underexposed on how to fight Ultimate Bayo since she is a rare character. If you don't know how to fight Ultimate Bayo, she can put you on your heels at all times (until one of her moves randomly stops working lol). If you do, then you can kind of steamroll her.

The very few advantages she does have is pretty much universal with everyone else. Pretty much the main reason why I think she may actually be bottom 5 in this game. :/

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

Another instance of SSB4 players losing to a user of their former main. Interesting to behold.




You pretty much summed up my thoughts about Bayo in two posts lol.

Another thing that benefits the Bayo player, and honestly the main reason behind Bayo's somewhat good placing on the game's first month, is that people are kind of overexposed on how to fight SSB4 Bayo since she is a relatively common threat, while being underexposed on how to fight Ultimate Bayo since she is a rare character. If you don't know how to fight Ultimate Bayo, she can put you on your heels at all times (until one of her moves randomly stops working lol). If you do, then you can kind of steamroll her.

The very few advantages she does have is pretty much universal with everyone else. Pretty much the main reason why I think she may actually be bottom 5 in this game. :/

My thoughts exactly. It's mostly just a lack of matchup experience that got her this far.

Lima quit Smash 2 days ago. Tamim dropped her and he may quit. CZ isn't using her anymore and now uses Daisy. Salem never used her. Geist is getting agitated and may quit in the coming months. Pink Fresh looks like the only stable comp Bayonetta player.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

What are you trying to establish here?

Does someone have the gif handy of sakurai’s reaction when leo Bayo laddered plup’s Ridley in front of everyone?

 

[The_Bookworm]

My thoughts exactly. It's mostly just a lack of matchup experience that got her this far.

Lima quit Smash 2 days ago. Tamim dropped her and he may quit. CZ isn't using her anymore and now uses Daisy. Salem never used her. Geist is getting agitated and may quit in the coming months. Pink Fresh looks like the only stable comp Bayonetta player.

Pink Fresh doesn't even exclusively play Bayo. He also plays quite a bit of Incineroar and Lucas.

 

[NotLiquid]

Collision 2019 Top 8
Winners:
Tweek vs Frozen
Dabuz vs Marss

Losers:
Light vs Cosmos
Nairo vs Sinji

Tweek yet again not able to be held down by a main
Yoshi having a great tournament with Raptor and Suarez getting Top 9
Frozen has risen as a new threat, sending both Light and Cosmos to losers
Coincidentally, Light and Cosmos continue their streak of getting into Top 8 at stacked tournaments
ZSS still a threat even if Marss did a pretty questionable power move
Mr. R beginning to use Roy now
Pac-Man still being slept on

 

[The_Bookworm]

Mr. R beginning to use Roy now

Mr. R has been using the combination of Roy, Chrom, and Snake throughout the entire tournament. He defeated Nicko with Snake, as an example.

Speaking of Chrom, Shoyo got knocked out earlier than usual in this tournament, at 33rd/49th (forgot which one) place, due to unfortunate circumstances.

sorry for throwing my collision bracket but i absolutely cannot play in cold conditions lol my bones be hurtin

— james (@Rivers3k) March 17, 2019

This tournament is actually wack. lol

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

What are you trying to establish here?

Well as a game dev you are pressured to make your game make to look good to your audience, the dev team could make bayo a bit better in the final game, but the smash community really like to exaggerate things, you can see this with the plup and Mkleo set, if that set were different i doubt bayo would be nerfed as hard as she was, hell even on the first month when the game was out you would see top players saying that she was atleast high tier, now imagine if bayo was a high tier, the players would still complain about her and even more because now there are patches.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

This is what I remember:

Just saw father Sakuria see the BnB off the top from Bayonetta and shake his head.

It's not the final build yet...#SmashBrosUltimate

— Bear (@BearUNLV) June 12, 2018

 

[Game7a1]

Collision 2019 Top 8
Winners:
Tweek

Tweek also used (against Odyssey ()). I would not be surprised if he pulls him out again against Frozen or if he has to face Light.

 

[NotLiquid]

Light is insane. Every single time he's got his back against the wall he manages to pull against the odds. Same thing happened during Ultimate Nimbus, Salem was poised to take the set, and Light just activates anime protagonist powers.

Nerves mean nothing to him.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Light is insane. Every single time he's got his back against the wall he manages to pull against the odds. Same thing happened during Ultimate Nimbus, Salem was poised to take the set, and Light just activates anime protagonist powers.

Nerves mean nothing to him.

Don't forget about his set against ESAM in grand finals. Game 10, in his last stock. ESAM SDs at early percents. Light slowly brings it back. He hits him with the most out-of-the-blue up air to seal away the set. That game 10 was anime plot armor at it's finest.

 

[blackghost]

I may be the vocal minority here but I truly cannot find Bayonetta viable in any sort of competitive play, and Tamim getting 5th at Glitch was nothing more than a fluke. I understand some are very anti Bayonetta, and I am very vocal towards my side of the argument, but I want to discuss this nonetheless factually. Although I hold SB to a very high regard so I know y'all won't rip me to shreds.

Bayonetta, as a whole, was so dominant in Smash 4 for obvious reasons. These reasons needed to be nerfed and I have no issues with them:

• Frame 4 Witch Twist that gave you the best followups in the game.
• Fair 1 which, in combination with Witch Twist, made mix-ups into True Combos
• Witch Time, which was outright broken
• Obvious other reasons but these three are the most apparent

Going into Ultimate, all three of these were nerfed heavily. Witch Twist is now frame 6, among some other changes (namely it being more susceptible to DI), Fair 1 has so much lag that your only option is to autocancel into Fair23, and Witch Time is... well I assume you've seen.

The big issue here is that Nintendo went further... and further, and further, and didn't really know when to stop. Smash 4 Bayonetta is quite possibly the most flawed a "broken" character can be because she has definite weaknesses that, while they can be avoided, are still there. Nintendo failed to address her biggest flaws in the process of nerfing her, so now you have a character void of her broken stuff (good), void of what made her outstanding (oh), and her bad jank still unpatched (sad).

The character had several flaws from Smash 4 that still haven't been fixed:

• Multihits: Bayonetta's multihits are possibly the worst connecting ones in the game if it wasn't for, say, Ken. Up tilt doesn't connect properly if you hit them either: at a specific angle, or with enough rage. Utilt is possibly her best combo starter and it is inconsistent. There is a video of Tamim losing a stock to MKLeo's Ike because Utilt did a flawed hit, his opponent recovered before the move was over, and smacked Bayo several cities over. Side Tilt has the same issue likewise, where Ftilt 2 and 3 will not connect. This is especially true if your opponent isn't hit by Ftilt 1, they get hit by 2, and 3 just does it's thing. Witch Twist, despite being much less susceptible to SDI, can still be mashed out of. Hell, the move just sometimes won't carry your opponent into the later hits of the move. Thank you single hit witch twist, very cool. Finally, you have Heel Slide, which can be teched and/ or DI'ed out of. This on its own is poor, but seeing how every multihit in the game seems to work better than in 4 it is just depressing.
• Smash Attacks: I legit didn't know how they could somehow not make them better, but instead worse. Here we are though. All 3 Smash Attacks have a reduced charge multiplier of 1.2x, inside and outside of witch time. They clank with literally everything. EVERYTHING. Fsmash has 2 less frames of startup, but because they didn't fully compensate the move it has an additional frame of end lag vs the previous game. My personal favorite here: Fsmash still has a goddamn blind spot right in front of Bayonetta. And because her smashes are stationary, running into her makes Bayo move backwards but the fist stay in place. You can literally outrun her smashes thanks to the blindspot.
• Landing Lag/ Recovery Frames: They reduced landing lag on 3 of her moves: Uair (10 to 8, which is great), Fair (14 to 12, which still isn't enough), and Bair (12 to 8, which is really really nice). But they didn't do enough in a game where Shulk's Nair is frame 6 for landing. They made Dair 2 frames slower. Downwards Afterburner Kick can no longer autocancel, and it gives her 20 frames of landing lag if you don't do the landing hitbox. Her combos have this much landing lag based on the combination: 19, 25 (-1 from 4), 30, 32, 40, and 42 (-1 from 4). It's such a petty difference that it might as well not exist, where heavyweights can't undergo the amount of lag that Bayonetta receives from touching the ground. Held Nair and Held Uair have 8 and 6 more frames of landing lag, but it makes zero sense as to why. In Smash 4, this would be a noticable nerf, as the slower gameplay and safer options made held Nair a big part of her kit. But in Ultimate, these moves are simply mediocre without the nerf (not to mention their nonexistant knockback and high FAF without landing), and with the nerf are literally unusable. They also added lag to held Fair and Bair for some god forsaken reason.
• Shield Pressure: Bayonetta won't break your shield, she has no way of doing so. Her throws are terrible. You can sit in shield and eat grabs until she can Fthrow you at 165% at the ledge. Side B not crossing up or doing the second hit doesn't help either.
• Bullet Arts: Honestly these might as well be taunts if we aren't counting whiffed jab 1234 and Fsmash.

You have the "**** Bayonetta in particular nerfs"

• Airdodges: Bayonetta is one of two characters in the game to have a "reduced airdodge speed". The other is Little Mac. Thank you Nintendo, very cool. In addition, Bat Within always teleports Bayonetta downwards, meaning offstage this could kill her, and onstage this makes her recovery predictable. Bat Within is overrated: it can teleport you to the blastzone, you still take damage, it is predictable, Pokemon Trainer has a frame 1 dodge that is like 10x better than Bat Within.
• Smash Multiplier: Already stated above, she only has a 1.2X charge. This is only for Bayo, unless you want to count Olimar not being able to charge his smash attacks.
• Bullet Climax: Every charge move in the game, minus BC and Limit, has been buffed to be easier to charge, with lower penalties to charge. Bullet Climax takes longer to charge, you can no longer cancel during charging, and you can only hold it for 5 seconds before it autoreleases. Not a major nerf, but a middle finger to Bayo nonetheless.

You have the massive, seemingly uncalled for nerfs:

• Up Air and Neutral Air cannot kill at 245% center stage. Held Nair and Uair are borderline useless unless you go super offstage with held Uair. It is much harder to ladder people, and now it is impossible to finish them with Uair. The move is a great combo tool, but changing a move from killing at 120% to 200+% is just... wow. Both of these moves should kill at 200%, bare minimum, and they don't even do that.
• Bayonetta's Side B (Heel Slide) is pretty awful. No true combos off it unless you are at like 10%, the second hit sometimes isn't true, you can sometimes tech between hits, you can shield it and punish. The move is 71 frames one hit, 72 frames both hits. The move relies entirely on the second hit to be usable, and the removal of it on shield makes it dead in the water. It is all risk minimal reward.
• Dair kills later (on and offstage), has more FAF, has more landing lag, and still doesn't have consistent air into landing hitbox.
• Bair kills later, has more FAF, and has a worsened sweetspot
• Witch Time: This needed to be nerfed. But it still had issues that weren't fixed. It's now a frame 8 counter, with 60 FAF, that only nets you anything meaty past 90%, you can be outprioritized in your own counter, early percents are useless, more than 3 whiffs are useless, etc. Any other counter does more damage at lower percents, and kills earlier/ more consistently.
• Witch Twist: Can still be SDI'ed out of, DI hurts it more, single hit witch twist is terrible while it was good in 4, the grounded hitbox doesn't hit short characters (Pichu, Pikachu, Jiggly, Kirby), and it doesn't snap the ledge... it a game where nearly everything snaps the ledge at some point.

There is more stuff but I've written this for like 30 minutes and I'm tired. I'm here for a discussion, not a roast. Let's have some fun.
Edit: Formatting, added stuff

the only thing i think he forgot to mention is her dair wont always combo into itself as well. Most of her nerfs feel at worst spiteful and at the best rushed (proably after MK Leo)
tamim got a dream bracket. R.O.B. is her best MU in the game for her and he got two in a row. im sure some rob players will back me up that the MU is awful.

to add to other things about bayo. she remains the only character in the game that cannot put out a hitbox below her. She remains the only character that has combos punishable on hit. she has the worst jab in the game. She has combos the rely on the opponent being ignorant of di.
most of the stuff you see on twitter with her isnt real. she remains a uniquely strong edgegaurd character capable of going at unique angle but her guards also very linear: she is looking for bair basically at all times.

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

Also if you guys want to check out the Bayonetta recovery frame chart I posted here:

https://smashboards.com/threads/bayonetta-recovery-landing-lag-chart.480505/

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Frozen's DI is just god-like...wow. Now THAT was clucth..

 

[Rizen]

Mr.R pulled out YL at collision and this is a good example of why you can't just pick up YL. Mr.R had no idea how his kill confirms worked and ended up killing off stray Nairs at 200%. He didn't know how to zone with projectiles and ended up hanging back at a distance where he couldn't convert into combos. YL is a very complex character you need to sink a lot of time into. It's matches like this that perpetuate rumors that YL can't kill until 200%. This is not how you play YL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcgEf5hGVZY

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Frozen taking out 3 (Likely) Top 10 Ultimate Players in a row. Insane Palu play

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Mr.R pulled out YL at collision and this is a good example of why you can't just pick up YL. Mr.R had no idea how his kill confirms worked and ended up killing off stray Nairs at 200%. He didn't know how to zone with projectiles and ended up hanging back at a distance where he couldn't convert into combos. YL is a very complex character you need to sink a lot of time into. It's matches like this that perpetuate rumors that YL can't kill until 200%. This is not how you play YL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcgEf5hGVZY

You want to see how YL kills? Tweeks set vs Frozen is the example. He was getting those up-B/ fair kill confirms and f-tiltd kills taking stocks at around 110-120. Palu aint exactly heavy, but that is still very good for YL.

Tweek almost got the reverse 3-0 after switching from Ridley, however Frozen clutch out game 5
YL recovery does seem kinda suspect. It it better than Link's but still can have similar issues it seems

 

[The_Bookworm]

Marss 3-1 Dabuz to take Marss to winner's finals.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Marss 3-1 Dabuz to take Marss to winner's finals.

Frozen and Marss won sets over likely half of the top 10 best ultimate players right now to get to face each other in WF. The have both been playing out of thier minds

Oh there may be an an asteriks for both thier cases. Such as Marss controversy on his set vs Wishes and Tweek decided to use mostly Ridley for the tournament. But I do not want to hold really hold that against them.

 

[AxelVDP]

to add to other things about bayo. she remains the only character in the game that cannot put out a hitbox below her.
not true, if you mean that she has no disjointed hitbox below her there are other characters aswell, one example could be Little Mac, but that's not saying much. but lots of characters don't have a "protective" landing aerial, what move can a Mario or a Ness throw out to avoid a juggle? at least Bayo has a fastfalling hitbox
edit before I get swarmed by Ness comments: yes he has good mobility and a stalling move in psi magnet to mixup his landings and yada yada, was purely talking aerials here
She remains the only character that has combos punishable on hit.
I'm assuming you don't mean at low%s, because tons of moves are unsafe on hit at very low%s
she has the worst jab in the game.
Not when Lucario's jab exists lol (and even Lucario's jab might not be the worst, just the first bad jab that came to mind)
She has combos the rely on the opponent being ignorant of di.
So do most characters
most of the stuff you see on twitter with her isnt real. she remains a uniquely strong edgegaurd character capable of going at unique angle but her guards also very linear: she is looking for bair basically at all times.

I do agree that Bayo was -severely- undertuned in this game (her smashes are atrocius + everything that has been said in previous posts), but please try to avoid being overly pessimistic and biased, it takes away some credibility even if the overall points are correct...
Plus I find it hard to believe her to be bottom5 material still, I think she falls more into the "Sheik" category, aka a characters with usable tools (even if some of her moves get labeled as ""dysfunctional"") but that has to be always on point to win.
(also, I think she could do good in some matchup by playing super campy, a thing which I've never seen being done by her main players in this game, she has ok mobility thanks to her specials + bullet arts and neutralB to force approaches)

 

[Cheryl~]

Frozen and Nairo's runs at this tournament show to me that even with all these talks of "Oh Palutena's just a fad she'll drop down in the future", at the moment she's still a likely candidate for top-tier at the very least. Yes, her options may be linear, but what she does have is still super oppressive for a ton of characters to deal with, even the top-tiers. The lowest I can ever see her going down without unfortunate nerfs is like, top of high-tier. She's crazy good, don't underrate her.

 

[Planty]

What exactly got changed in the transition from ssb4 that makes Palutena so good in Ultimate?

 

[Gleam]

What exactly got changed in the transition from ssb4 that makes Palutena so good in Ultimate?

She's faster, more mobile, better combo capabilities and far superior moveset. They pretty much took the best of Smash4 Custom Palutena, Lightweight, Explosive Flame, etc, which most agreed made her a darn good character and made that her default in Ultimate while improving her other aspects. Nair is incredible and check, D-throw to Fair can combo as far as 240%. She really is an absolute monster now.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Wow speaking of underating characters. Lets talk about ZSS because Marss just 3-0'd Frozen in convincing fashion, after winning vs Nario and Dabuz to get in GF winners

ZSS could still is very good or maybe Marss is just a complete and utter madman, maybe both lol?

 

[Nebunera]

I swear Meta Knight is just a disappointment in this game. The only buff he needs is kill power and he will be fine.

 

[bc1910]

Frozen and Nairo's runs at this tournament show to me that even with all these talks of "Oh Palutena's just a fad she'll drop down in the future", at the moment she's still a likely candidate for top-tier at the very least. Yes, her options may be linear, but what she does have is still super oppressive for a ton of characters to deal with, even the top-tiers. The lowest I can ever see her going down without unfortunate nerfs is like, top of high-tier. She's crazy good, don't underrate her.

This. People say she’s dropping off and players are figuring her out, but we aren’t seeing it. She actually has some really unique tools with a lot of room for optimisation. Her results have remained stellar. She may not be taking #1 spots but she’s always in the mix. She’s deservedly top tier right now, she has way more of a claim to it than many other candidates. Especially Greninja who in an ironic twist of fate is overrated at this point IMO.

What exactly got changed in the transition from ssb4 that makes Palutena so good in Ultimate?

Explosive Flame is a factor, but primarily, almost every single move she has got significantly buffed in either frame data or power. It’s as simple as that.

 

[Idon]

HOLY ****, NAIRO PULLED OUT HIS GANONDORF AND WON A MATCH.

EDIT: TWO OF EM.

EDIT:
REVERSE 3-0 WITH GANONDORF.

 

[KakuCP9]

I see Nairo wanted to outdo himself for he picking Dr.Mario and taking a game off ESAM back in S4.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Nairo reverse 3-0'd Light.. With GANNONDORF..

This.this is....I sorry I dont care what anyone else says..This Collison 2019 has been freaking AMAZING. This is the most fun I have had watching an Ultimate competition yet.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Why in the world would you not camp Ganondorf as Fox

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Why in the world would you not camp Ganondorf as Fox

Because Ganon can still kill you with his stare.

 

[KakuCP9]

I'm not that surprised. The Fox MU wasn't that bad for Ganon in S4 and both characters are roughly the same so Ganon winning a match isn't all that out there.
Tho nuts to Nairo all the same.

Why in the world would you not camp Ganondorf as Fox

Implying the general Smash community has the patience to camp players out (outside of a handful of players).