Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Dolphin Slash doesn't use tipper mechanics, it's identical between characters.

Ah i see

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

I would say that hurtboxes tend to matter a lot when it comes to agility in general. When I think agility, one of the main things I think of is how hard it is to hit that certain character. Inkling, for instance, has a small hurtbox that gets even wonkier when dashing around because of how that character turns into a squid. Pairing that with good movement stats makes for very solid agility I would say and definitely more agility than a bigger body with around the same mobility stats (Charizard being a good example to bring up). I would also call Pichu overall more agile than DK overall in this game is because despite DK having superior movement stats, DK is still just so much easier to hit because he has such a massive hurtbox to aim for. I also think while raw mobility data is obviously very important when talking about how agile a character is, moves (mostly special moves) that help the character move around also matter. Pikachu’s quick attack is the best example I can think of off the top of my head, as it allows the pika player an easier way to get to where they want to go. Overall I think this data is very interesting, but we need to be able to attach it to the overall game and see how that data fits in with the other aspects in this game.

Air bubble pic.twitter.com/b3ff7oLdcr

— v23 (@v23God) March 14, 2019

Yeah, if one superimposed pichu and DK hurtboxes in the air and on the ground in this picture, I think that illustrate what you are talking about.

It would be interesting if there was some sort of benchmark or metric for how big a character's hurtbox is (both while dashing, jumping, etc) and the zones around with their hitboxes (denoting which zones have safe hitboxes where applicable). Maybe a heatmap depending on how fast a hitbox can become active. This is how I think of pressure.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Air bubble pic.twitter.com/b3ff7oLdcr

— v23 (@v23God) March 14, 2019

Yeah, if one superimposed pichu and DK hurtboxes in the air and on the ground in this picture, I think that illustrate what you are talking about.

It would be interesting if there was some sort of benchmark or metric for how big a character's hurtbox is (both while dashing, jumping, etc) and the zones around with their hitboxes (denoting which zones have safe hitboxes where applicable). Maybe a heatmap depending on how fast a hitbox can become active. This is how I think of pressure.

I feel like someone did the heatmap pressure thing for Melee at some point in the past, a few years ago maybe? The concept is definitely ringing a bell.

Also seconding (thirding, fourthing, whatever) the idea of agility being at least partially tied to hurtbox size and additional movement options. Like Chrom, for example -- he's fast on paper, but he's so gimpable that I have a hard time calling him "agile" with a straight face. Maybe that means my idea of agility involves the ability to be somewhat...careless, for lack of a better term, while offstage.

 

[N8than]

Cool!

Is there anything else that's canceled with a double jump? Aren't spacie reflectors and Ness bubble also? I want to see if you can jump cancel them right as they land. If so it could be pretty cool for Lucas.

Ness's magnet and can be double jump cancelled, but I don't know about Lucas's. Even if it could, it wouldn't be as useful because only a small area in the magnet has a hit box to speak of. Spacie reflectors also can't be DJC'd because none of the spacies are floaty like Ness or mewtwo.

 

[Browny]

Air bubble pic.twitter.com/b3ff7oLdcr

— v23 (@v23God) March 14, 2019

Yeah, if one superimposed pichu and DK hurtboxes in the air and on the ground in this picture, I think that illustrate what you are talking about.

It would be interesting if there was some sort of benchmark or metric for how big a character's hurtbox is (both while dashing, jumping, etc) and the zones around with their hitboxes (denoting which zones have safe hitboxes where applicable). Maybe a heatmap depending on how fast a hitbox can become active. This is how I think of pressure.

While nice info to have, realistically the theory of 'threat bubbles' is thrown out the window as soon as the match begins.

It says absolutely nothing about frame data which is just as important, but the issue is if you have one without the other, its completely useless. Ganondorfs 'threat bubble' is gigantic until you take into consideration how slow his usmash is. So he does SH uair/nair instead. But that wont hit medium sized grounded enemies like usmash will. So what good is being fast if you cant hit things in front of you, what good is having huge range if you're too slow . This is why hitbox data and frame data must go hand in hand and isolating them doesn't help that much.

If people wanna lab it out, cool. But for everyone else, don't spend time memorizing it because I guarantee you it won't help you in practice.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

While nice info to have, realistically the theory of 'threat bubbles' is thrown out the window as soon as the match begins.

It says absolutely nothing about frame data which is just as important, but the issue is if you have one without the other, its completely useless. Ganondorfs 'threat bubble' is gigantic until you take into consideration how slow his usmash is. So he does SH uair/nair instead. But that wont hit medium sized grounded enemies like usmash will. So what good is being fast if you cant hit things in front of you, what good is having huge range if you're too slow . This is why hitbox data and frame data must go hand in hand and isolating them doesn't help that much.

If people wanna lab it out, cool. But for everyone else, don't spend time memorizing it because I guarantee you it won't help you in practice.

It's pretty important to know the ranges of attacks. Not really sure why you're saying otherwise.

 

[Krysco]

With the down specials of (Echo Reflector and Absorbing Vortex) and , you can't double jump cancel them but upon absorbing/reflecting something you can immediately roll, spotdodge or jump just like as if you were in shield. Can't double jump or air dodge if reflecting/absorbing in the air but if you reflect/absorb right before landing, you can still buffer a spotdodge, roll or jump. Easier to do with Fox and Wolf given their high fall speed.

The Pits can't do this but while testing, I found that they maintain complete control of their horizontal air speed while their reflector is up which the others with holdable reflectors/absorbers don't have.

 

[PK Bash]

Just for the sake of absolute clarity since people are misunderstanding.

Supermodel From Paris is talking about moves that can be cancelled in the air using a double jump. I.E. You use the move FIRST and the double jump SECOND and cancel the move with the double jump, as seen in that BSD video. E.G. Charge Shot, AuSphere, SBall.

MG_3989 , N N8than and possibly someone else are talking about double jumps that can be cancelled with a special move. I.E. Using the double jump FIRST and the special move (it has to be a special move in this game, unlike Melee/64) SECOND, cancelling the double jump. Double jumps that can be cancelled like this are the double jumps of Ness, Mewtwo and Lucas. (This isn't to do with floatiness, by the way: it's to do with the programming of these unusual double jumps.)

It's an easy mistake to make, but please keep this in mind for the future.

And yes N8than, this means Lucas can djc with his magnet.

 

[N8than]

Just for the sake of absolute clarity since people are misunderstanding.

Supermodel From Paris is talking about moves that can be cancelled in the air using a double jump. I.E. You use the move FIRST and the double jump SECOND and cancel the move with the double jump, as seen in that BSD video. E.G. Charge Shot, AuSphere, SBall.

MG_3989 , N N8than and possibly someone else are talking about double jumps that can be cancelled with a special move. I.E. Using the double jump FIRST and the special move (it has to be a special move in this game, unlike Melee/64) SECOND, cancelling the double jump. Double jumps that can be cancelled like this are the double jumps of Ness, Mewtwo and Lucas. (This isn't to do with floatiness, by the way: it's to do with the programming of these unusual double jumps.)

It's an easy mistake to make, but please keep this in mind for the future.

And yes N8than, this means Lucas can djc with his magnet.

Oh, I see. Thanks for telling me.

 

[N8than]

This might seem like a weird question, but which side specials do you think are the best in the game?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

This might seem like a weird question, but which side specials do you think are the best in the game?

Roy's side-b Is a pretty good contender At times it it basically Cloud's limit Cross Slash without actullay needing limit.

Olimar's pikmin throw too most definetly.

 

[bc1910]

This might seem like a weird question, but which side specials do you think are the best in the game?

There are a lot of great projectile side specials. Pikmin throw, Razor Leaf, all the Links’s boomerangs, Nikita, Mii Sword’s Chakram.

For attacks, Peach Bomber and Burning Drop Kick (Brawler) are great safe on shield midrange burst options that can eventually kill. Shadow Sneak is nothing special on the ground but terrifying in the air, and good for recovery.

Ike’s Quick Draw is also worth noting; it might seem average by itself but it allows a character that would otherwise have a bottom 5 recovery to have a pretty serviceable one.

 

[Minordeth]

I created an "agility score" that I thought was intersting. I ranked characters based on a mixture of Run Speed, Air Speed, Air Acceleration, Fall Speed, Initial Dash, and Walk Speed. Basically, I took the average of each attribute and then took a weighted average for character based on that. For example, Sonic has a run score of 214 becuase he runs 214% the speed of the average Ultimate Run Speed. I simplified air acceleration to "Total Air Acceleration" and Fall Speed to average fall speed.

The weights I used (a totally arbitrary rough guesstimate) are 35% Run Speed, 30% Air speed, 10% Air Acceleration, 10% Fall Speed, 10% Initial Dash, and 5% Walk Speed.

All stats are from http://kuroganehammer.com. The main attributes missing here are jump height and multijumps, those stats weren't available on the site.

The results are as follows:
(You can see the spreadsheet with calculations here)

View attachment 198479

This is a neat idea, with one large caveat that I can see:

I think you are vastly overrating top speeds and underrating the interplay of accelerating forces (initial dash and air accel) with decelerating factors (like traction). How often do you transition into the full run animation during a match? My guess is less than you use movement based on the initial dash mechanics. (E.g. foxtrotting and dash dancing).

“Agility” as a concept incorporates speed, but is far more complex than that one aspect. It’s the ability to change one’s position quickly.

My favorite example in Smash Ultimate is Wolf. He has a slow top run speed, but his initial dash is quite fast, which coupled with his traction allows him to bait out options and weave around opponents quite well.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

While nice info to have, realistically the theory of 'threat bubbles' is thrown out the window as soon as the match begins.

It says absolutely nothing about frame data which is just as important, but the issue is if you have one without the other, its completely useless. Ganondorfs 'threat bubble' is gigantic until you take into consideration how slow his usmash is. So he does SH uair/nair instead. But that wont hit medium sized grounded enemies like usmash will. So what good is being fast if you cant hit things in front of you, what good is having huge range if you're too slow . This is why hitbox data and frame data must go hand in hand and isolating them doesn't help that much.

If people wanna lab it out, cool. But for everyone else, don't spend time memorizing it because I guarantee you it won't help you in practice.

Of course! Threats have to be considered across the dimensions of space, time, and risk/reward. That's why heat maps that illustrated how fast hitboxes can be active, their risk, and their reward, as well as their general mobility, would be interesting to consider a character's neutral interactions. This is what unconsciously gets built in my head but if someone *else* with a lot of time made a visual of this it would be pretty cool

This is a neat idea, with one large caveat that I can see:

I think you are vastly overrating top speeds and underrating the interplay of accelerating forces (initial dash and air accel) with decelerating factors (like traction). How often do you transition into the full run animation during a match? My guess is less than you use movement based on the initial dash mechanics. (E.g. foxtrotting and dash dancing).

“Agility” as a concept incorporates speed, but is far more complex than that one aspect. It’s the ability to change one’s position quickly.

My favorite example in Smash Ultimate is Wolf. He has a slow top run speed, but his initial dash is quite fast, which coupled with his traction allows him to bait out options and weave around opponents quite well.

Yeah, there are other parameters that are important. Traction is recorded along with many more parameters here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...5e5-8j7SGzezxkeZuF1uP8uOw/edit#gid=1644356108

Really, what would probably be more practically useful than a synthetic metric would be some sort of empirical benchmark. Like have you done qualifiers for a sport where they test your agility, doing suicides in basketball or tennis or the like (suicides are when you run down the court to the first line, quickly turnaround and run back to the start, turn around and run back to the next furthest line, and so on)? Something similar using a TAS, like how PracticalTAS has tested how far characters can recover etc, would be interesting.

Something low-fi that I have been thinking about testing, if I was ever stuck with a lot of time and nothing else useful to work on, would be using the training mode frame by frame setting to measure how long it would take characters to dash to a spot and put a hitbox there, or jump to a spot and put an active hitbox there, etc.

It would be interesting to know what types of tooling the dev team has for this.

 

[Rizen]

This might seem like a weird question, but which side specials do you think are the best in the game?

's flying slam is f6, much faster than other command grabs on heavies. The downside is you can't use it with a higher % than the opponent if you don't want them to make you die too. Command grabs in general are good moves but 's in particular deals a lot of damage and helps recoveries. have armor and reflect projectiles, idk which is better. 's boomerangs are all really good at controlling space, stopping chains and YL's boomerang true combos into Fair up close, the other 2 probably do as well. withdraw is a great escape move and has complete armor. 's is very strong. nikita needs no explanation. 's cape reflects and is possible the best gimping move in the game.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Peach Bomber has to be way up there as a side b. Very safe, difficult to challenge, can kill, great burst option, can be used as a movement option, functions offstage and in the air. Can condition an opponent to jump.

 

[Jotun873]

's flying slam is f6, much faster than other command grabs on heavies. The downside is you can't use it with a higher % than the opponent if you don't want them to make you die too. Command grabs in general are good moves but 's in particular deals a lot of damage and helps recoveries. have armor and reflect projectiles, idk which is better. 's boomerangs are all really good at controlling space, stopping chains and YL's boomerang true combos into Fair up close, the other 2 probably do as well. withdraw is a great escape move and has complete armor. 's is very strong. nikita needs no explanation. 's cape reflects and is possible the best gimping move in the game.

Shoutout for pacman side special as an excellent recovery (with super armor) and Ganondorf side special which can be a tech chase or an easy 20% if not teched

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Oh yeah, Lima and Tamim have both retired apparently. Lima tweeted announcing it, and Tamim closed his twitter account and people who know him have confirmed.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Oh cant forget Arm Rotor. Can reflect projectiles, great punish option, can deal up to 20% damage, kills very early at the edge/offstage and can combo from nair or gyro in certain situations. Plus it is very effective at gimping fairly linear recoveries. i.e basically erases side-b as a recovery option in the MU

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Oh yeah, Lima and Tamim have both retired apparently. Lima tweeted announcing it, and Tamim closed his twitter account and people who know him have confirmed.

Geez I dont really want to make any assumptions, I dont know anything about thier personal lives, but is it about Bayo seems kinda petty if so? If Bayo is no longer viable pick a new main and move on. That is what other previous Bayo users Salem, Captain Zack and Tweek have done. That is what many other Pro players that had their previous Smash 4 main nerfed to that point have done. Umm... it also have to do with the stigma of being a Bayo main in Smash 4

Also speaking of Tweek , he is using right now at Collision, that is a thing that is happening

 

[Emblem Lord]

Oh yeah, Lima and Tamim have both retired apparently. Lima tweeted announcing it, and Tamim closed his twitter account and people who know him have confirmed.

If it's personal yeah handle that IRL stuff.

If it's about Bayo then their weakness disgusts me.

 

[ProfessorVincent]

If it's personal yeah handle that IRL stuff.

If it's about Bayo then their weakness disgusts me.

Probably a mix of both and more. No shame in stopping competing in a game that you've lost interest in. Whatever the reason.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Also speaking of Tweek , he is using right now at Collision, that is a thing that is happening

Tweek had a pocket Ridley for a while now. Seems like he decided to put the Ridley into actual tournament play use, which is cool to see.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Probably a mix of both and more. No shame in stopping competing in a game that you've lost interest in. Whatever the reason.

Definitely no shame.

Does not make it less weak.

If all it takes for one to drop a game is their main getting nerf nuked, it begs the question how truly interested they were in the first place.

 

[Rizen]

Which of these characters do you guys think is better ?

In the YL vs TL MU, TL has the advantage. He's got faster air and run speeds, more weight, kills earlier and better hitboxes. I hate this MU; it's like playing dittos except one side starts with 50% damage every stock. The only advantage YL has is he gets better combos off his CQC game but TL's so campy it rarely comes up.

But TL winning the MU does not mean he's a better character overall.

While I'm at it I might as well talk about and 's Fsmash. The first cut combos into the second but only if you buffer the second immediately. It's possible to DI or shield a delayed second cut so the Links have to commit hard to an extremely laggy move unless it's far enough away to be sure it wiffed. This sucks and means TL's (new 1 hit) Fsmash is actually safer to throw out. I've lost KOs by not being confident enough in the first hit and having the opponent get away. The 2 hit Fsmash has a few advantages like not being countered hard for the first hit and possibly punishing spotdodges.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Lima does openly admit in his farewell post that he never wanted/intended for Smash to be a career; he did say that he couldn't make Bayo work and that he had trouble moving onto a different character, but the biggest reason he left was because he felt there were too many people in the Smash community with duplicitous intentions (This is the link for it since I did a terrible job explaining it lol http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sqr80q)

On a side note, scored a pretty big win a while back by winning WNF 1.4's GF over Nicko's , which is surprising since I always figured swordies give Luigi trouble, and Nicko's Shulk is no slouch.

It took me a while to realize just how ridiculous Luigi Cyclone actually is; the aerial version of the move has invincibility on frame ONE (I can't think of other moves like this barring Bayo's Bat Within); it requires commitment, but it also destroys any sort of chance for combo potential or pressuring by the opponent, which is what you can see in their set whenever Nicko tried to get any sort of NAir/FAir chains rolling with Shulk. Not only that, but the freaking thing also kills too, which means trying to get too greedy with him at higher percents is kiiiiiiinnnndddddd of a death sentence. The move almost feels like 's Nayru's Love, except dialed up to 11.


Also, in terms of OoS options, I'm surprised no one brought up Luigi's frame 8 "I kill you at 70%" Super Jump Punch; it's easily one of the strongest and fastest attacks in the game for punishing opponents, and again, it really helped Elegant seal stocks when he needed to against Nicko in the set. It sort of feels like a much more polarized version of USmash: It's just as fast and way more powerful, but it's also even laggier and has much less coverage.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Which of these characters do you guys think is better ?

In the YL vs TL MU, TL has the advantage. He's got faster air and run speeds, more weight, kills earlier and better hitboxes. I hate this MU; it's like playing dittos except one side starts with 50% damage every stock. The only advantage YL has is he gets better combos off his CQC game but TL's so campy it rarely comes up.

But TL winning the MU does not mean he's a better character overall.

While I'm at it I might as well talk about and 's Fsmash. The first cut combos into the second but only if you buffer the second immediately. It's possible to DI or shield a delayed second cut so the Links have to commit hard to an extremely laggy move unless it's far enough away to be sure it wiffed. This sucks and means TL's (new 1 hit) Fsmash is actually safer to throw out. I've lost KOs by not being confident enough in the first hit and having the opponent get away. The 2 hit Fsmash has a few advantages like not being countered hard for the first hit and possibly punishing spotdodges.

I still believe that ylink is the best of the links. Ylink seems like he has some pretty decent tools but in comparison ylink I kinda find him to be a bit lacking. The biggest difference being the bair Bair and arrows. I believe these moves are what separates them and puts Ylink ahead. Also ylink hair is kinda ridiculous too.

As for Lima's situation that kinda sucks but you cannot be friends with everyone and everyone that smiles in your face isn't going to be nice.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

competitive players shouldn't use social media too much or atleast have a separate private account, yes improving your brand is important but so does your mental health, not to mention that the majority of the playerbase is very young and it shows for better or worse(mostly), this could be a bit off topic but is very important topic if you want to be a top player.

Not to mention that characters become good or bad between games you should know this even more if your main was a top tier with polarizing tools, so there is no shame if you drop the character or use a top tier in a new game, people who were toxic to you would still be toxic even if you were loyal to the character, because they don't reallly care if you were good or not, only laugh about your misinfortunes.

 

[blackghost]

Yeah

Yeah the mentality that characterd need "BS" moves or some crazy X-Factor that can turn the tide of a match in seconds in order be top-tier or win touraments needs to be left back in Smash 4.

The only characterslike "that kind" of Smash 4 Top-tier character are Wario and maybe Olimar.Where no matter how ahead you may be in a match. you are always fearing a comeback to an insane X-Factor that can erase stocks at disgustingly low percentages

top tiers always have options always that other characters must respect or deal with thats the nature of top tiers. without even extending outisde of smash EVERY top tier character in a smash game has had at least elite BS option. Its not a mentality thing, its a character toolset thing.

If it's personal yeah handle that IRL stuff.

If it's about Bayo then their weakness disgusts me.

Excuse me, their WEAKNESS? are you serious right now? Getting death threats, being booed, being doubted at all times claims of hem being carried, and much much more. These two are young basically kids. Tamim has been attacked at a local for playing a videogame character. lima is constantly harassed. You clearly do not know them nor what they have been through. it is not your place to further put them down.
DId you call ZER0 weak? or is this just reserved for them? this things like this have been consistent for them and they are sick of it. I know i would be.

if you win with the bayo you weren't carried and she clearly is fine as a character. If you lose: HAHAHA you were carried.

Unlike many other players, they are attached to one character and they aren't leaving because she's bad they are leaving because they are sick of being ridiculed for that love of a character.

 

[Rizen]

Excuse me, their WEAKNESS? are you serious right now? .

Emblem Lord's an edgy anime protagonist; he talks that way. Don't take it to heart.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

top tiers always have options always that other characters must respect or deal with thats the nature of top tiers. without even extending outisde of smash EVERY top tier character in a smash game has had at least elite BS option. Its not a mentality thing, its a character toolset thing.



Excuse me, their WEAKNESS? are you serious right now? Getting death threats, being booed, being doubted at all times claims of hem being carried, and much much more. These two are young basically kids. Tamim has been attacked at a local for playing a videogame character. lima is constantly harassed. You clearly do not know them nor what they have been through. it is not your place to further put them down.
DId you call ZER0 weak? or is this just reserved for them? this things like this have been consistent for them and they are sick of it. I know i would be.

if you win with the bayo you weren't carried and she clearly is fine as a character. If you lose: HAHAHA you were carried.

Unlike many other players, they are attached to one character and they aren't leaving because she's bad they are leaving because they are sick of being ridiculed for that love of a character.

So what's your point?

 

[Shaya]

DId you call ZER0 weak?

Yeah I'm pretty sure he did when he quit Smash4. Particularly/probably when the heavy implication at the time was due to that character.

 

[Emblem Lord]

top tiers always have options always that other characters must respect or deal with thats the nature of top tiers. without even extending outisde of smash EVERY top tier character in a smash game has had at least elite BS option. Its not a mentality thing, its a character toolset thing.



Excuse me, their WEAKNESS? are you serious right now? Getting death threats, being booed, being doubted at all times claims of hem being carried, and much much more. These two are young basically kids. Tamim has been attacked at a local for playing a videogame character. lima is constantly harassed. You clearly do not know them nor what they have been through. it is not your place to further put them down.
DId you call ZER0 weak? or is this just reserved for them? this things like this have been consistent for them and they are sick of it. I know i would be.

if you win with the bayo you weren't carried and she clearly is fine as a character. If you lose: HAHAHA you were carried.

Unlike many other players, they are attached to one character and they aren't leaving because she's bad they are leaving because they are sick of being ridiculed for that love of a character.

You would not call death threats IRL stuff? Because I would.

I truly wish I heard such nonsense in person, because I would not hesitate to shut down such foolishness if I heard someone threaten another over a videogame.

Also lol...top player clout does not mean anything to me. I have gotten into it with NEO, chillindude, Mew2king and so many others over the years. On the forums and in person. If you say something ridiculous to me, I will say so. If I think you are privileged, I will say so. And if I think you act cowardly, I will say so. Only if I am asked of course. But if I am asked then I will not hold back.

ZeRo is weak and a shill, but that is personal and has to do with a mutual friend of ours. I won't discuss that matter any further.

 

[Heracr055]

Not sure if you guys are watching Collision but

Zion 2-0 Corn on Pools Winners side (Corn went on to drown in pools)

 

[MG_3989]

Lima does openly admit in his farewell post that he never wanted/intended for Smash to be a career; he did say that he couldn't make Bayo work and that he had trouble moving onto a different character, but the biggest reason he left was because he felt there were too many people in the Smash community with duplicitous intentions (This is the link for it since I did a terrible job explaining it lol http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sqr80q

I know this isn’t really the place to post this but it’s relevant. I support Lima 110%. He basically just wanted to play a game for fun and ended up becoming dirty at it and winning tournaments. Then he made a bunch of “friends” who ended up being fake and toxic for lack of a better word towards him. If anyone here has had fake friends which I’m sure most of us have you know how much that hurts and can damage your psyche. He feels ostracized by the community and those in it and he isn’t passionate about the game anymore. There’s absolutely no reason he should continue playing

For me this reflects very poorly on the top level of the Smash community and aligns with other things I’ve heard. The reason it’s relevant to this thread is because we should be trying to build and harbor a community of inclusivity and acceptance, which on the surface Smash does (and I’m not saying everyone in Smash is like this), but I’ve heard too many reports of toxicity from multiple sources including Lima now (again for lack of a better word, I hate using this word as a catch all) at the top levels of play. The reason this is relevant is because if childish and cliquey behavior like this continues and newcomers aren’t welcomed and old “friends” are turned on, on a dime, the competitive scene will die. Then we’ll have no characters, players, matches, tournaments, moves, etc... to talk about

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol?

No, the competitive scene will not die. This is exactly what a competitive scene looks like. A microcosm of the real world specifically governments and politics. The people at the top who garner power and influence and the parasites that attach themselves to them.

You want to know how to crush toxicity? Call it out in person when you see it. You see some bull****? Call it. You see someone bullying, put a stop to it. You know what would REALLY do it? TO's start flexing and find the assholes that want to send death threats give em a good ol perma-ban.

Send a clear message that ****ery is not acceptable.

I meant what I said. I despise weakness. And people that bully are the weakest of all that cannot confront their own limitations and ceilings. So they have to lash out.

Quitting because of assholes in a community is certainly understandable. So now we know the symptom.

Time to attack the illness.

 

[MG_3989]

I

lol?

No, the competitive scene will not die. This is exactly what a competitive scene looks like. A microcosm of the real world specifically governments and politics. The people at the top who garner power and influence and the parasites that attach themselves to them.

You want to know how to crush toxicity? Call it out in person when you see it. You see some bull****? Call it. You see someone bullying, put a stop to it. You know what would REALLY do it? TO's start flexing and find the ******** that want to send death threats give em a good ol perma-ban.

Send a clear message that ****ery is not acceptable.

I meant what I said. I despise weakness. And people that bully are the weakest of all that cannot confront their own limitations and ceilings. So they have to lash out.

Quitting because of ******** in a community is certainly understandable. So now we know the symptom.

Time to attack the illness.

But we both know not everyone has the balls and the motivation to do this. You’re not wrong and that’s the most effective way to deal with problems but that’s not how they’ve been dealt with in the past or seem to be now. Cliquey and Political bull**** and who you’re in with will always let certain people get away with being bullies and even worse and I personally don’t give a **** who somebody is if they’re a ****ty person and they’re making the scene a worse place I’ll call them on it but its not like I have any influence and most people won’t. Like you said it’s just the same as real life but why not strive to make the scene something better and less corrupt? Something people can come to and enjoy their time in and not feel out of place because let’s be honest a lot of smashers feel out of place in their lives and this is their only outlet

There are multiple problematic things that I’m not going to bring up in here because it would be a landmine relating to top players that have been straight swept under the rug and forgotten because of the clout they have. Things a lot more problematic than death threats. We literally all know this

 

[Browny]

Lima could have dodged all of the snide comments if he acknowledged that bayo was broken, but also hit people with the 'if you had the chance to win an evo with a top tier character, you would take it too.' and no one would be able to rightfully criticise him. He didn't put her in the game, Sakurai did.

His defense against bayo is fueling other peoples negative opinions about it.

 

[MG_3989]

Lima could have dodged all of the snide comments if he acknowledged that bayo was broken, but also hit people with the 'if you had the chance to win an evo with a top tier character, you would take it too.' and no one would be able to rightfully criticise him. He didn't put her in the game, Sakurai did.

His defense against bayo is fueling other peoples negative opinions about it.

He’s literally a child. He was 16 or something at Evo. How many 16 year olds, let alone 16 year olds who basically became pseudo famous overnight have the self awareness to check themselves? Very few

I’m not gonna say anything else but honestly you know he’s gonna get hated on and backlash for this which he doesn’t really deserve

Let’s put this to bed tho

 

[Rran]

If you say something ridiculous to me, I will say so. If I think you are privileged, I will say so. And if I think you act cowardly, I will say so.

What it you're the one saying something ridiculous?