Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Ark of Silence101]

Sure, but dealing with a weak character being awful isn't what you want to do with a top tier. You hold the L, pick a better char. Or deal with the frustration that comes from blaming yourself over a char actually not being able to do something.

But in this case he's: A) Going for a character that isn't better than the one he's ditching and B) Doesn't appear to suit his playstyle as well as the previous character.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Glutonny 3-0 zackray

 

[Frihetsanka]

I have seen his Roy and while it's not bad, I feel his PT could be so much more if he had more patience with Charizard's drawbacks(especially in situations like how VoiD was bodying him).

Maybe he should try to find a top tier that fits him?

 

[meleebrawler]

Not sure if you guys are catching the commentary from Zero, Dabuz, M2K, etc but it's actually really insightful on how they handle player on player relationships, sharing what's in the mind of top players in & out of thec ame, etc. Some of it got pretty deep too, such as Zero talking about how M2K is struggling to find a good fit chatacter, which I imagine is what a lot of people are undergoing too. I appreciate thectalks & just wanted to touch on it.
To make a character related post...Ridley is in the same boat as hyper-offensive characters like Fox where his advantage is insane but his disadvantage is terrible. I can see Ridley in high mid because those advantage tools are actually quite good. And I think his FSmash is a move that is so fantastic with respect to risk vs reward that it skews whiffs and mistakes greatly in his favor (seriously that move can kill starting around the late 30s with just a bit of charge)

The smash I get the most mileage out of with Ridley is his usmash. It's basically Fox's but facing backwards and no real weak hits to it. Can cover a lot of ledge and low platform options with relatively little risk.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

With Leo apparently slowly dropping Ike, I wonder how his meta will go on from here. We still got Ryuga and Marss as a secondary.

I knew Ike would eventually drop off, but I didn't want to believe it lol.

 

[Rizen]

With Leo apparently slowly dropping Ike, I wonder how his meta will go on from here. We still got Ryuga and Marss as a secondary.

I knew Ike would eventually drop off, but I didn't want to believe it lol.

Has Leo actually used or was he just trolling?

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Has Leo actually used or was he just trolling?

Likely trolling. He hasn't used her at all this tournament.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Dabuz 3-0 Nairo
Samsora 3-0 zackray
Both are out at 5th.


MkLeo vs Glutonny is the winner's finals match I didn't expect, but am pleased to see.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

With Leo apparently slowly dropping Ike, I wonder how his meta will go on from here. We still got Ryuga and Marss as a secondary.

I knew Ike would eventually drop off, but I didn't want to believe it lol.

Greninja is probably just flavour of the month for him. He used Wolf exclusively for several tournaments in the past in a similar fashion. And this is Summit: he's facing pretty much exclusively the best of the best and his Lucina is nearly as good as his Ike with better MUs against characters like Wolf, Fox, and Wario. He doesn't really have a reason to be using Ike much in this tournament.

I suspect Ike is still his main for going through brackets as he's the best for blowing people up out of his character lineup, and then he'll alternate between Ike, Lucina, Wolf, and Greninja when it comes to top 8 in most major tournaments. When you have that flexibility, why not choose the character that will give you the better odds in that particular MU?

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Greninja is probably just flavour of the month for him. He used Wolf exclusively for several tournaments in the past in a similar fashion. And this is Summit: he's facing pretty much exclusively the best of the best and his Lucina is nearly as good as his Ike with better MUs against characters like Wolf, Fox, and Wario. He doesn't really have a reason to be using Ike much in this tournament.

I suspect Ike is still his main for going through brackets as he's the best for blowing people up out of his character lineup, and then he'll alternate between Ike, Lucina, Wolf, and Greninja when it comes to top 8 in most major tournaments. When you have that flexibility, why not choose the character that will give you the better odds in that particular MU?

I'm going off of what he apparently told ZeRo and Vikki, which is that he thinks Ike is dropping off.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Err yeah that's pretty much it honestly. There's no real true main for Diddy in Ultimate yet. But you can count me as one if you'd like. I only have 0 results lol.

It's not like he was massively used in Smash 4 or Brawl honestly. He was mostly carried by ZeRo.

Also I think he beats just about any character that ZeRo groups him with in the same tier.

Diddy wasn't massively used in sm4sh? You sure about that? I do believe he was overwhelmingly the most played character. As for diddy Kong players I believe dakpo plays him idk how good his results are with him though.

 

[The_Bookworm]

A bit of an interesting update here: after losing games 3 and 4 pretty badly, Dabuz counterpicked to at game 5 versus Samsora. Guess what? It actually worked.

I'd say that Dabuz's Rosalina is the Shuton Richter of this tournament.

 

[Sean²]

Err yeah that's pretty much it honestly. There's no real true main for Diddy in Ultimate yet. But you can count me as one if you'd like. I only have 0 results lol.

It's not like he was massively used in Smash 4 or Brawl honestly. He was mostly carried by ZeRo.

Also I think he beats just about any character that ZeRo groups him with in the same tier.

Diddy wasn't massively used in sm4sh? You sure about that? I do believe he was overwhelmingly the most played character. As for diddy Kong players I believe dakpo plays him idk how good his results are with him though.

Yeah...I was gonna say. Besides Zero, you had Zinoto, Nietono, Shoyo James, JJROCKETS, Angel Cortez, MVD, C3P0...and those are just the ones I can remember extensively playing the character off the top of my head. So many high level players played him.

In Brawl the only ones I remember were ADHD and Gnes, but that was a long time ago. Hard to want to play Diddy when you had an unrelenting force like MK dominating everything.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm going off of what he apparently told ZeRo and Vikki, which is that he thinks Ike is dropping off.

Eh, he also told Zero that his Cloud was better than his Ike a while back and Zero had to talk sense into him.

I think MKLeo has this weird thing where he doesn't want to accept that his Ike is pretty great. Wants to find other characters to use, keeps ending up falling back to Ike for bracket climbing. I suspect that's basically what happened with his Wolf, will happen with Greninja, etc etc.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Welp, he just said Ike is still a thing but Lucina is just way better. Good to hear he isn't gonna drop him.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think MKLeo has this weird thing where he doesn't want to accept that his Ike is pretty great. Wants to find other characters to use, keeps ending up falling back to Ike for bracket climbing. I suspect that's basically what happened with his Wolf, will happen with Greninja, etc etc.

He just said on stream that he thinks Ike is good but Lucina is better, so he doesn't have much reason to go Ike when he can just play Lucina instead (though he also said that Ike's still going to be a thing).

 

[Rizen]

A bit of an interesting update here: after losing games 3 and 4 pretty badly, Dabuz counterpicked to at game 5 versus Samsora. Guess what? It actually worked.

I'd say that Dabuz's Rosalina is the Shuton Richter of this tournament.

Rosa's a hard character if you don't know how to fight her. Like I said, someone went Rosa vs me, it was my first time playing the MU and I got gimped early. Rosa has big disjoints.

EDIT: Rizen Do you have any thoughts on how Young Link does against Snake, Ike and Mega Man? These seem like top of high/bottom of top tier characters who are around his power level right now.

I almost missed this. Ike is a -1 MU. Ike's huge sword controls a lot of space and it's hard for YL to get in. It eats projectiles so the slow swings are somewhat beneficial. Ike is terrifying when he has stage control. Then Ike gets combos that kill. YL can push his openings hard and zone with projectiles. Kind of like vs Ness it comes down to Ike lives a lot longer. He's more likely to Nair you at 80%+ or land a stray hit than YL is to get Ike to 140%+ where confirms off boomerang and bombs will kill. Ike's jab is also really good. It gets overshadowed by his crazy Nair but it's fast and controls a lot of space.

I haven't played Snake or Megaman yet. Theoretically, YL should do well because YL's projectile zoning is stronger than their zoning or camping. YL doesn't have to play their games.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Smash Summit Results

1st: MkLeo
2nd: Dabuz
3rd: Glutonny
4th: Samsora
5th: Nairo
5th: zackray
7th: Cosmos
7th: VoiD
9th: Armada
9th: Mew2King
9th: Leffen
9th: Light
13th: ZeRo
13th: Mang0
13th: Plup
13th: ZD

 

[Frihetsanka]

Some notes: The Melee players did better than expected, with Armada beating ZeRo and ZD, and Mew2King also beating ZD, Leffen beating Plup and Armada. Not amazing results by any means but it's respectable and it shows how they have room to grow.

ZeRo took MkLeo to game 5, which is also pretty impressive. ZeRo is still quite strong, it seems.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I want to know you guy's thoughts on the mentality of playing a glass cannon character. VoiD recently tweeted this:

Also, after the past few days I gotta say playing Pichu is getting stressful :/ The cons are super tough, and it's frustrating to deal with them at the top level.

I'll still be playing him of course, but I'll let my mental rest for a bit and level up other characters/play p5 :)

— Void (@gsmVoiD) March 10, 2019

Then again, Pichu is a completely different level of glass-cannon, being the lightest, but most explosive character. However, I can imagine playing a character of that archetype being mentally stressing on the player.

Speaking of which, according to dataminers, Joker appears to a character that fits the glass-cannon archetype: fast but light. Not sure if that will hold true in the final product, but it is interesting to see.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

He just said on stream that he thinks Ike is good but Lucina is better, so he doesn't have much reason to go Ike when he can just play Lucina instead (though he also said that Ike's still going to be a thing).

I mean, no duh Lucina is better. She's arguably top 5 lol.

Its sounds like its panning out roughly like I said: Ike for bracket because less mentally taxing/blows up people more, Lucina + others once he reaches the end of a bracket because against higher level competition/more characters that Ike doesn't do as well as Lucina against. We'll see exactly what sort of numbers soon enough.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

W.sq

I mean, no duh Lucina is better. She's arguably top 5 lol.

Its sounds like its panning out roughly like I said: Ike for bracket because less mentally taxing/blows up people more, Lucina + others once he reaches the end of a bracket because against higher level competition/more characters that Ike doesn't do as well as Lucina against. We'll see exactly what sort of numbers soon enough.

Id say Lucina is definetley top 5 along with Olimar and Peach , I say Wario and Wolf or Fox can fot there too

Characters like Inkling, Greninja, Pikachu , Pichu are likely a bit lower, like maybe hovering around the top 10 mark.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I want to know you guy's thoughts on the mentality of playing a glass cannon character. VoiD recently tweeted this:

Also, after the past few days I gotta say playing Pichu is getting stressful :/ The cons are super tough, and it's frustrating to deal with them at the top level.

I'll still be playing him of course, but I'll let my mental rest for a bit and level up other characters/play p5 :)

— Void (@gsmVoiD) March 10, 2019

Then again, Pichu is a completely different level of glass-cannon, being the lightest, but most explosive character. However, I can imagine playing a character of that archetype being mentally stressing on the player.

Speaking of which, according to dataminers, Joker appears to a character that fits the glass-cannon archetype: fast but light. Not sure if that will hold true in the final product, but it is interesting to see.

Well the only other real effective glass cannon is Fox (sorry Mewtwo) who is also very powerful and explosive but at times can look nearly as fragile as Pichu due to also being very light and exploitable offstage. But as you mentioned Pichu might be a different beast entirely

It kinda makes me wonder how Joker is going to play. Like maybe going to be a "puppet" character like Rosa where he a Persona will be controlled seperate from different specials and attacks. Because he seems like he is going to be light and fairly tall

 

[Idon]

It kinda makes me wonder how Joker is going to play. Likw maybe going to be a "puppet" character like Rosa where he can control a Persona for different specials and attacks. Because he seems like he is going to be light and fairly tall

I find that unlikely. In Persona games, the Persona itself doesn't actually do a lot of fighting. Instead it is summoned out to do an attack and then recalled once the attack is finished. It's more clearly represented in Persona 4 Arena, where instead of making the majority of attacks, they are relegated to special moves.

If something similar to that occurs, and I think it will considering how big a fan of Persona Sakurai is, then he most likely wouldn't be a puppet character. I could definitely see him being light-weight however, as he is an agile nimble character along the lines of Sheik.

 

[Browny]

ZeRo took MkLeo to game 5, which is also pretty impressive. ZeRo is still quite strong, it seems.

The fact that this happened, and Leo won and Zero came last, must do immense damage to ones psyche. A few hits could have changed the course of everything and so many peoples perceptions of him would have changed. I think its not an uncommon belief that Zero placed where we would have expected him :/

 

[NotLiquid]

Here are some stats from #UltimateSummit:

- The most played on stage was Pokémon Stadium 2 with a 23.5% pick rate.

- Inkling, Wolf, and Wario were the most used characters by game throughout the tourneyhttps://t.co/hq7E8T4HoK pic.twitter.com/RlhZICoOZj

— Liquipedia Smash (@LiquipediaSmash) March 11, 2019

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Some notes: The Melee players did better than expected, with Armada beating ZeRo and ZD, and Mew2King also beating ZD, Leffen beating Plup and Armada. Not amazing results by any means but it's respectable and it shows how they have room to grow.

ZeRo took MkLeo to game 5, which is also pretty impressive. ZeRo is still quite strong, it seems.

*meh* I felt like the melee players did horrible and their spots could've gone to better players. I stopped watching though and didn't bother watching on Sunday. I may check out the vods but I think this was something that was supposed to be more entertaining.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

Guys, Joker isn't going to be THAT light. He'll be the same weight as Peach, which really is barely below mid weight.

 

[Jotun873]

Guys, Joker isn't going to be THAT light. He'll be the same weight as Peach, which really is barely below mid weight.

Source?

You dont have to be light to be a glass cannon either. Chrom is considered a glass cannon due to his horrible recovery but is still sitting somewhere in the mid weights

 

[Goodstyle_4]

Source?

You dont have to be light to be a glass cannon either. Chrom is considered a glass cannon due to his horrible recovery but is still sitting somewhere in the mid weights

https://twitter.com/seb9797/status/1081172166757019649

The datamine is the source. And I highly doubt Joker's recovery is going to be bad considering his Persona has massive wings and nearly every character in the cast that has less than 90 points of weight have great recoveries.

 

[Jotun873]

https://twitter.com/seb9797/status/1081172166757019649

The datamine is the source. And I highly doubt Joker's recovery is going to be bad considering his Persona has massive wings and nearly every character in the cast that has less than 90 points of weight have great recoveries.

Ridley has wings and a pretty trash recovery.

Nearly every isnt the same as every either.

I am not defending joker as a glass cannon but rather taking a "dont judge till hes out" stance. Some characters play way different in game than they do on paper.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

A bit of an interesting update here: after losing games 3 and 4 pretty badly, Dabuz counterpicked to at game 5 versus Samsora. Guess what? It actually worked.

I'd say that Dabuz's Rosalina is the Shuton Richter of this tournament.

And here I thought he dropped her completely. I'll have to watch the video when it gets put up.

RE: Joker, haven't his stats changed in every update since they started appearing in datamines? I seem to recall something along those lines.

Idon While I agree Joker won't be a true puppet fighter like Rosalina (or the Ice Climbers, I guess), you mentioned P4A, which I'd argue turns the entire cast into pseudo-puppet fighters except for, like, Akihiko and whats-his-face that doesn't have a Persona to begin with. I know Elizabeth in particular could combo you with Thanatos from across the screen. It's plausible IMO that Smash!Joker will have a similar mechanic where certain attacks summon Arsene and make him linger a bit, and if you keep using the right attacks he can stick around for a while.

 

[Diddy Kong]

https://twitter.com/seb9797/status/1081172166757019649

The datamine is the source. And I highly doubt Joker's recovery is going to be bad considering his Persona has massive wings and nearly every character in the cast that has less than 90 points of weight have great recoveries.

Diddy has 90 vallues of weight and has a bad recovery.

 

[IsmaR]

For the sake of both spoilers and the values potentially being placeholders (see Piranha Plant originally being slower than Incineroar), I'd ask that any datamine speculation/discussion be kept to a minimum until we're closer to their actual release (unlike Plant/in Joker's case, we still haven't even seen a gameplay trailer).

 

[meleebrawler]

Ridley has wings and a pretty trash recovery.

Nearly every isnt the same as every either.

I am not defending joker as a glass cannon but rather taking a "dont judge till hes out" stance. Some characters play way different in game than they do on paper.

Ridley's recovery is really pretty average if you're smart with his jumps and mix up the uses of his up and side specials.

 

[Jotun873]

Ridley's recovery is really pretty average if you're smart with his jumps and mix up the uses of his up and side specials.

Still doesnt make his up special good. His side special IS a huge benefit to him i will agree but simply saying "play smart" and "mix it up" are things you should be doing as everyone.

The primary point here is that his up special is pretty limited and bad due to the 4 directions as opposed to 8 like the starfox crew. If it werent for his third jump and being able to act out of side special he would be much worse.

 

[J0eyboi]

I want to know you guy's thoughts on the mentality of playing a glass cannon character. VoiD recently tweeted this:

Also, after the past few days I gotta say playing Pichu is getting stressful :/ The cons are super tough, and it's frustrating to deal with them at the top level.

I'll still be playing him of course, but I'll let my mental rest for a bit and level up other characters/play p5 :)

— Void (@gsmVoiD) March 10, 2019

That's especially interesting because VoiD mained Sm4sh Sheik, who was probably the most mentally taxing top/high tier to make bracket runs with. Him saying that Pichu is becoming too stressful for him doesn't really bode well for the character.

While I agree Joker won't be a true puppet fighter like Rosalina (or the Ice Climbers, I guess), you mentioned P4A, which I'd argue turns the entire cast into pseudo-puppet fighters except for, like, Akihiko and whats-his-face that doesn't have a Persona to begin with. I know Elizabeth in particular could combo you with Thanatos from across the screen. It's plausible IMO that Smash!Joker will have a similar mechanic where certain attacks summon Arsene and make him linger a bit, and if you keep using the right attacks he can stick around for a while.

This really isn't the thread for moveset speculation etc. That said, Joker being a puppet character like that would kinda completely undercut Persona 5 thematically and heavily misrepresent its gameplay mechanically. Puppet characters, especially in Smash, are inherently safe and defensive, which is a terrible fit for a character from a game about rebellion and fighting against oppressive powers. For similar reasons, Joker being a glass cannon would make a lot of sense.

 

[Rizen]

's recovery is like Link's: it's long yet exploitable and inflexible. He needs to position himself at the right angle and getting hit can ruin that. I think it has 6 angle, up, down, up right/left, down right/left. It's weird. Fortunately Ridley has extra jumps and a command grab to help. UpB is hard to challenge when it gets going and can travel down through platforms. I'd say it's a little above average.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

What makes a recovery "average" becasue there are several factors that go into how good recoveries are. I mean Id say all the spacies recoveries are a bit "below average" Characters like technically have poor recoveries but have some tricky or nasty offstage options to help offset them. Then there are the characters who recovery options are just undisputedly bad like For average recoveries that can be considered middle of-the road dunno maybe?.

But then again there are characters who recoveries are just unarguabally piss-poor and...of course

 

[Frihetsanka]

I mean Id say all the spacies recoveries are slightly "below average" For average recoveries that can be considered middle of-the road dunno maybe?

Marth and Lucina's recovery is actually pretty good, it has far vertical range and is hard to contest, it can also be used offensively to attempt a stage spike and hope they miss the tech or get an untechable.