Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Y2Kay]

People hate those stages cuz slants are trash. There is no conspiracy going on.

 

[Lore]

And how are slants trash, exactly?

 

[J0eyboi]

People hate those stages cuz slants are trash. There is no conspiracy going on.

And how are slants trash, exactly?

Okay guys.

There's literally a thread for this.

Go there instead.

 

[KamikazePotato]

I'm starting to suspect that the ones complaining are meta-character mains, and they don't like the stages because they don't perform as well on them.

Ding ding ding

 

[Lore]

Okay guys.

There's literally a thread for this.

Go there instead.

Fair, but the current stage list heavily slants the viability of characters. There's a reason it keeps getting brought up here.

 

[Foie]

Meanwhile a slow, read-based character named Ike won the event, although MKLeo swapped to Lucina for some rounds at the end.

Heavies have been popping up in various events, and I strongly suspect that they were underrepresented at Genesis due to players wanting to play the clear "top" characters for a first big event.

I also think those "top" characters are the ones who have the most basic play and reward fundamentals, which is why people have gravitated to them. As the meta develops, I do believe those characters will stay near the top. I just don't see them as dominant as previous games' top tiers.

Ike is a heavy yes, but he doesn't have to deal with a massive hurtbox in the same way do. Not to mention his kill confirms from basically 70% (or lower) out of neutral, so I'd argue he's not a good indicator of the potential success of heavies.

I think M2K's Bowser vs Richter here is a pretty good example of just how much extra crap Bowser has to deal with. He's the better player and won the set, but he had to work very hard game 3 on what should be a good stage for him:

I guess my main point is heavies have often been in the "potential" camp, and personally I'll need to see tourney results prove otherwise. They have some of the biggest weaknesses in the game, which historically give them a rough matchup spread. I can see them being viable in more matchups in ultimate, but people saying peach might lose to almost every superheavy is quite ridiculous at this point in time and seems like a reflection of online play.

 

[Lore]

That's fair, and I think that their hurtbox will keep them from reaching the absolute top. I just believe that they are far more viable in this game, maybe even high tier.

 

[Rocketjay8]

That's fair, and I think that their hurtbox will keep them from reaching the absolute top. I just believe that they are far more viable in this game, maybe even high tier.

It would be a really poor balance decision for a heavyweight like DK Bowser to be top tier. I'm really glad that they lost the DIng DOng and Koopah, it would have been extremely frustrating to fight them in this game if they still had them.

 

[SwagGuy99]

I can see them being viable in more matchups in ultimate, but people saying peach might lose to almost every superheavy is quite ridiculous at this point in time and seems like a reflection of online play.

I think wins against every super-heavy. The only one that I'd question is but I don't think gordos and his range are that good to keep her out forever.

 

[Lore]

It would be a really poor balance decision for a heavyweight like DK Bowser to be top tier. I'm really glad that they lost the DIng DOng and Koopah, it would have been extremely frustrating to fight them in this game if they still had them.

Lol, what?

With that attitude, you might as well just remove heavyweights. Come on.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Ike is a heavy yes, but he doesn't have to deal with a massive hurtbox in the same way do.

This is actually one benefit that has over the rest of the super-heavies (and even some other characters like ) is having a smaller hurtbox compared to his weight. I'm not saying that his hurtbox is small, because it's definitely above average, but Incineroar's hurtbox is definitely shorter (and maybe thinner) than the rest of the other super-heavyweights.

 

[J0eyboi]

I would argue that is a much worse matchup simply becuase he is a much better juggler than . Becuase of slow air speed and slow fall speed, if predicts her landing and she isn't holding a turnip or have her float left, he can just up-air her forever.

I don't buy this. First of all, while Cloud can juggle better than Marcina, he's way less likely to get chances to. The removal of landing Uair for Cloud also removed his best starter for juggles by far. His best options now are Dtilt, which Peach can float over, running Utilt, which is telegraphed, has low horizontal range, is unsafe, and generally is a good way to get himself smacked, and Uthrow, which guarantees nothing. Second of all, situations in which Peach lacks all of a double jump, a turnip, and float time should be exceedingly rare if the Peach player uses their options smartly. Sure, Cloud can juggle her really well once she's in that situation, but so can Marcina, as well as just about anyone else. Getting her to that point is the hard part, not keeping it that way.

I think you're thinking too linearly. As in, "what can Pichu do if Wolf uses laser?" First, tjolt and laser don't interact. If Wolf is shooting a laser, he can't reflect a tjolt in time.

This is neither true nor relevant. First of all, if Wolf is far enough away from Pichu, he will be able to reflect or at least shield the tjolt in time. Second of all, even if he can't shield in time, he wins the trade every time at relevant ranges, especially against Pichu.

Second, platforms aid Pichu/Pikachu in using their jolts and avoiding Wolf lasers.

Platforms aid Wolf just as much in avoiding Tjolt, and Wolf can always just short hop or fullhop laser to hit platforms.

Beyond that alone, Pichu's ground movement is significantly superior to Wolf's.

Minordeth said this already; no it isn't. People really need to stop looking at run speed to determine ground mobility. It's not actually that important.

Dash attack isn't her only burst option

Correct, she also has dash grab. Beyond that, though, unless you consider Fair (frame 13 from grounded, low range, trades super unfavorably), Nair (frame 6 from grounded but has no range and is unsafe on hit when used this way until mid percents), or Pichu's running options (frame 16 at the fastest) to be burst options (hint: they aren't), that's all she has. Pichu relies heavily on Tjolt to zone break because she really doesn't have good ways to do so otherwise. Tjolt isn't even that good of a projectile for zone breaking; it loses to a lot of dedicated zoning options and can be short hopped over by a lot of characters. It's used because it fills an otherwise gaping hole in Pichu's gameplan.

 

[zblaqk]

I wonder why WarioWare is just immediately banned. I think that the stage has alot of potential, as well as being completely unique platform and size wise, without any slants. Has there been any testing on kill percents?

 

[ZephyrZ]

For the record, I don't actually think big bodies are going to be top tier in this game. I just don't think Peach in particular is an absolutely massive issue for them. From my limited offplay experience, I've found the match ups I've struggled offline with weren't too different from the ones I struggled with online. Characters matchups with shorter range and more average mobility tended felt more then doable, but characters with zone-heavy playstyles or oppressive mobility and buttons would overwhelm them and give them no breathing room.

But again the Peaches I've faced haven't exactly had Samsora level combos, so that could be skewing my impressions.

 

[MG_3989]

I wonder why WarioWare is just immediately banned. I think that the stage has alot of potential, as well as being completely unique platform and size wise, without any slants. Has there been any testing on kill percents?

Because people don’t wanna be killed 30% earlier. Imagine how dominant somebody like Ike would be on Warioware with his range a kill potential. Nobody wants to take him their. Even Lucina’s fsmash will kill at like 50% and Ness’s back throw probably around the same. Or imagine how quick R.O.B’a side B off stage would kill. Some relevant characters have moves moves there that would completely polarize the match up there so a lot of times it’s banned because of the distinct disadvantage it would give to other characters, especially zoners with trouble killing or a character like Inkling

Plus certain heavies like Bowser and DK can literally oppress half the stage or more with their options. I’m not saying it should be the first stage banned, just why

 

[Jotun873]

I wonder why WarioWare is just immediately banned. I think that the stage has alot of potential, as well as being completely unique platform and size wise, without any slants. Has there been any testing on kill percents?

Because people dont want to learn how to play against heavies and would rather force them onto bad stages

 

[|RK|]

But... this isn’t really accurate, though. The only thing Pichu has over Wolf is top run speed. Wolf’s initial dash starts at 2.09, whereas Pichu’s starts at 1.98. Pichu’s speed only begins to overtakes Wolf on frame 9, where Wolf has decreasing speed into his run.

They are actually fairly close in terms of overall ground mobility, but Wolf jukes more quickly and has vastly better air speed. If he uses his foxtrot constantly, their ground mobility is extremely close.

Pichu can’t zone break with her mobility. She isn’t Fox or Greninja. She isn’t even Pikachu. Agility has no hitbox and has the same vulnurabilities as Quick Attack.

Wolf can absolutely make it hard for her to get in, as his ground buttons have disjoints, and she actually can’t coast on ground mobility.

That's fair on the foxtrotting part; you're right.

Disagree with the rest. Pichu's own foxtrot is boosted by the fact that she's also really small. Example - Charizard has a faster initial dash than both, but he's not going to juke as well as either.

In general, Pichu is going to be hard to hit when avoiding disjoints, but pop back in VERY quickly all the same.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I want WarioWare to be legal but I can understand why it can be polarizing. I'll never understand the aversion to Castle Siege's slope though.

As far as how those stages would effect the viability of big bodies and superheavies, I think they'd give them a little boost but not fix all of their problems. They're still combo food no matter where you go and zoning will still be a huge pain for them, it'll just be more manageable. Either way I'm not optimistic for the future of my boys Bowser and Charizard.

It's also worth noting that even if they small stages get striked the presense could still help heavies. It will make it easier for them to go to a more medium sized stage instead of forcing them onto large stages all the time because. Let's say a tournament has Battlefield, Pokemon Stadium 2 and Final Destination as its neutral stages. If I was a Bowser going up against a Young Link I'd strike FD and they'd probably strike Battlefield, bringing us to Pokemon Stadium...which still favors Young Link due to its size. If the neutral selection was something like PS2/Castle Siege/Battlefield/FD/Smashville however it'd be a different story. Bowser would still lose the match up but at least he'd more likely to go to a stage that doesn't worsen it even more.

 

[|RK|]

This is neither true nor relevant. First of all, if Wolf is far enough away from Pichu, he will be able to reflect or at least shield the tjolt in time. Second of all, even if he can't shield in time, he wins the trade every time at relevant ranges, especially against Pichu.



Platforms aid Wolf just as much in avoiding Tjolt, and Wolf can always just short hop or fullhop laser to hit platforms.



Minordeth said this already; no it isn't. People really need to stop looking at run speed to determine ground mobility. It's not actually that important.



Correct, she also has dash grab. Beyond that, though, unless you consider Fair (frame 13 from grounded, low range, trades super unfavorably), Nair (frame 6 from grounded but has no range and is unsafe on hit when used this way until mid percents), or Pichu's running options (frame 16 at the fastest) to be burst options (hint: they aren't), that's all she has. Pichu relies heavily on Tjolt to zone break because she really doesn't have good ways to do so otherwise. Tjolt isn't even that good of a projectile for zone breaking; it loses to a lot of dedicated zoning options and can be short hopped over by a lot of characters. It's used because it fills an otherwise gaping hole in Pichu's gameplan.

If he's that far, he's also not doing anything else you mentioned. He's just shooting laser, and Pichu can shield, hang back, jump over and tjolt, etc.

Platforms - sure, and the point is that on a platform or the ground, Pichu hits a grounded Wolf. So if Wolf is shooting laser grounded, Pichu can use the plat. It's more about interrupting Wolf.

Fair. Honestly was thinking less about run speed, and more about foxtrot utility & size. Pichu seemed faster, but I was wrong.

You're considering fair and nair but not bair? And yes, tjolt isn't amazing. But it has very good uses.

 

[earthboundspacefree]

I want WarioWare to be legal but I can understand why it can be polarizing. I'll never understand the aversion to Castle Siege's slope though.

As far as how those stages would effect the viability of big bodies and superheavies, I think they'd give them a little boost but not fix all of their problems. They're still combo food no matter where you go and zoning will still be a huge pain for them, it'll just be more manageable. Either way I'm not optimistic for the future of my boys Bowser and Charizard.

It's also worth noting that even if they small stages get striked the presense could still help heavies. It will make it easier for them to go to a more medium sized stage instead of forcing them onto large stages all the time because. Let's say a tournament has Battlefield, Pokemon Stadium 2 and Final Destination as its neutral stages. If I was a Bowser going up against a Young Link I'd strike FD and they'd probably strike Battlefield, bringing us to Pokemon Stadium...which still favors Young Link due to its size. If the neutral selection was something like PS2/Castle Siege/Battlefield/FD/Smashville however it'd be a different story. Bowser would still lose the match up but at least he'd more likely to go to a stage that doesn't worsen it even more.

Yeah I just posted a massive post about this in the stagelist thread. Basically, having the option of WW means on average, stage choice will be closer to average stage attributes (or slightly smaller)

Which is great for heavies

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Because people dont want to learn how to play against heavies and would rather force them onto bad stages

Note it just aint super-heavies that will benefit from WW. Other characters with very strong back or forward killthrows and even Smash art can take stocks as early as 50-60% or maybe even sooner with them near the ledges

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Because people dont want to learn how to play against heavies and would rather force them onto bad stages

Heavies are not the only characters in this game that can kill really early with small blastzones. I would honestly be much more afraid of a Meta Knight or Wolf on a small blastzone stage than DK or D3

 

[MG_3989]

Note it just aint super-heavies that will benefit from WW. Other characters with very strong back or forward killthrows and even Smash art can take stocks as early as 50-60% with them near the ledges

Yeah Ness’s foward comes close to killing at 0% because of set knock back and back throw kills wayyyy too early on Warioware. That’s scarier than heavies

That said you’d be hard pressed to find a Ness main that’ll take a heavy to Warioware but Ness is such a heavy killer anyway he doesn’t need that advantage

 

[J0eyboi]

If he's that far, he's also not doing anything else you mentioned. He's just shooting laser, and Pichu can shield, hang back, jump over and tjolt, etc.

That was a technicality, moreso than an actual point. At relevant ranges, Wolf isn't going to be able to reflect Tjolt most of the time. I brought it up because pedantry.

You're considering fair and nair but not bair?

I considered considering bair, but left it out because RAR is weird in this game. It's got the range issues of nair, the trading issues of fair, and is in between the two in speed at frame 8. Still not good.

Also...

In general, Pichu is going to be hard to hit when avoiding disjoints, but pop back in VERY quickly all the same.

You might want to tell Pichu mains that, then. Watching Leo vs VoiD at G6 (VOD), he relies on shielding a lot more than he does whiff-punishing. It wouldn't be fair to say that he does this solely because Pichu isn't good at whiff-punishing, of course. Part of it was undoubtedly the way Leo was playing, combined with the fact that Pichu has good enough OoS options to make that sort of playstyle work. However, there are a few instances throughout the set where you can see Void try to whiff-punish and either run directly into a hitbox or fail because of Pichu's lackluster burst game. Void just considered dashing up and shielding to be a much better option most of the time.

Something else interesting I noticed while writing this: Pichu can crawl under Wolf's grounded laser. She can't crouch under it, though there are a few frames in the transition animation between standing and crouching that can avoid it, but she can crawl under it, except sometimes she can't. Probably not useful because crawling is slow as **** but hey, it's there.

 

[ZephyrZ]

It's not small blastzones that benefit big body heavies, it's small main platform sizes. It gives zoners and speedsters less room to run away from them. Big bodies really gain a lot from stage control as they can oppress their opponents with massive hitboxes when they have no room to run away. This is especially huge for snails like Incineroar, Ganondorf and...Ike.

Yeah some high tiers would definitely benefit from WarioWare were it to be legal. Whether or not that's a bad thing though would be an argument for the other thread.

 

[MG_3989]

It's not small blastzones that benefit big body heavies, it's small main platform sizes. It gives zoners and speedsters less room to run away from them. Big bodies really gain a lot from stage control as they can oppress their opponents with massive hitboxes when they have no room to run away. This is especially huge for snails like Incineroar, Ganondorf and...Ike.

Yeah some high tiers would definitely benefit from WarioWare were it to be legal. Whether or not that's a bad thing though would be an argument for the other thread.

I think Ike would be polarizing in Warioware even against superheavies. Those blast zones, those platforms, and that stage size. That’s a recipe for disaster with Ike and that’s one of the main things holding me back. I still do want it legal at least as a test but Ike (not to mention Cloud who’s fallen off lately) will be able to take big advantage of it. Shulk too, that sword takes up 75% of the stage and he’d kill at legit 20% with Smash Art. Ness would benefit against any character similar in size to without bigger range than them (such as Pikachu and Pichu and probably Fox and Inkling) who he already beats and goes even with because of his throws and PKT2 would kill at obscene percentages. Lucina might even benefit in certain matchups with fsmash killing so early. These are already top and high tier characters we’re talking about who would benefit further from this stage

On the other side of the coin campers and zoners with low kill power would be at a huge disadvantage. Now you can say it evens out because campers and zoners have enough stages that benefit them but still. I do want the stage to be legal at this point in the meta though. At this point we should be testing and experimenting and seeing what works in my opinion

And yes it would benefit superheavies because of how big their bodies are and how they can’t be camped or ran away on which is nice but that’s not the only effect it would have on the meta. Something like Unova seems like the best “small” stage but obviously we need more than one. That’s the thing with Smash. It’s so cool to have different stages yet polarizing to decide which ones. When you have disadvantage it’s nice to be able to take a character to a stage you can win on and that’s unique to Smash. I think it’ll all work itself out well and hopefully everything will be tested. Right now is when we should be testing everything to make as balanced a meta game as possible

 

[Frihetsanka]

Something like Unova seems like the best “small” stage but obviously we need more than one.

Unova is not a small stage, it's actually slightly larger than the median stage (164 instead of 160).

 

[MG_3989]

Unova is not a small stage, it's actually slightly larger than the median stage (164 instead of 160).

I didn’t know that. People always throw it around when talking about smaller stages

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

Plus certain heavies like Bowser and DK can literally oppress half the stage or more with their options. I’m not saying it should be the first stage banned, just why

We know, that's kind of the point lol. Bowser and DK aren't exactly putting on a particularly impressive performance atm. And right now they're basically forced to play on stages that don't favor them every game because there aren't any small ones that are legal. If you're wondering which stages are considered "small", they would be: Warioware, Castle Seige, and Yoshi's Story.

 

[Frihetsanka]

If you're wondering which stages are considered "small", they would be: Warioware, Castle Seige, and Yoshi's Story.

Smashville and Yoshi's Island (Brawl) as well.

 

[Omastar]

Dabuz's new tier list:




https://twitter.com/DabuzSenpai/status/1096168119847043072

 

[Siledh]

Swrious question, are tier lists really viable? Ultimately MU lists should be the goal as no single character should be able to take on most of the cast and win just because of who they are.

If the game is balanced, then everyone should be of a similar tier. Stage lists factor into this, of course.

 

[ZephyrZ]

If the game is balanced, then everyone should be of a similar tier. Stage lists factor into this, of course.

The thing is no fighting game is perfectly balanced, especially one of this scale. There's just too many little intricacies for every advantage and disadvantage to be accounted for. Metagame development can also cause a game that seems balanced at first to shift as people start favoring certain characters and strategies over others.

 

[MG_3989]

Dabuz does not like Ness. Same thing with last tier list except he’s even lower this time. I don’t know how he can justify putting him that low at this point. He’s sustained his success for too long now

 

[The_Bookworm]

Dabuz does not like Ness. Same thing with last tier list except he’s even lower this time

Ikr.

Dabuz's new tier list:

View attachment 192538


https://twitter.com/DabuzSenpai/status/1096168119847043072

Looks pretty similar to other recent tier lists that has been going along. As usual of typical top player 2.0.0 tier lists, the good'o Wolf-Lucina-Pichu at the top. Does look like the accurate tier list of the current metagame atm (at least in comparison to other top player tier lists lol). [Edit: I also noticed Mii Brawler that high.]


I am actually getting tired of these tier lists imo. It feels like tier lists are going left and right every few weeks. It usually comes from the same players, who show drastic changes in tier placing/opinions as a result of "advancing metagame and results". Well duh, THE GAME HAS BEEN OUT FOR ONLY TWO MONTHS!!! I feel as if it is too early to actually give out any tier lists, because it is going to change greatly in only a few weeks, especially since patches are still a thing. There is a reason why the first 4BR Tier List happened more than two years after SSB4's release. Making tier lists are fun admittedly, but top players are sucking tier lists dry atm and it is hard to take them any seriously anymore.

Huff... huff. Alright, rant complete.

 

[Lore]

I mostly agree with Dabuz's list, but Ness's placement is definitely suspect.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Tier list bout to be invalid in 2 months.

 

[Omnos]

I wonder why dabuz thinks mii brawler is good. Same tier as Wario lol. Placing him just behind Yoshi, if it's ordered. What does he know that we don't

 

[Frihetsanka]

That Dedede placement seems suspect, but Dedede has been getting results, I suppose. Ganondorf seems too high as well, Wii Fit Trainer maybe too low? Ness potentially a tad too low as well. Is Sonic really that mediocre?

Lucina and Pichu seem a bit overrated to me, Olimar a bit underrated, Link and ROB a bit overrated, but overall it's fairly good.

 

[MG_3989]

Ikr.


Looks pretty similar to other recent tier lists that has been going along. As usual of typical top player 2.0.0 tier lists, the good'o Wolf-Lucina-Pichu at the top. Does look like the accurate tier list of the current metagame atm (at least in comparison to other top player tier lists lol). [Edit: I also noticed Mii Brawler that high.]


I am actually getting tired of these tier lists imo. It feels like tier lists are going left and right every few weeks. It usually comes from the same players, who show drastic changes in tier placing/opinions as a result of "advancing metagame and results". Well duh, THE GAME HAS BEEN OUT FOR ONLY TWO MONTHS!!! I feel as if it is too early to actually give out any tier lists, because it is going to change greatly in only a few weeks, especially since patches are still a thing. There is a reason why the first 4BR Tier List happened more than two years after SSB4's release. Making tier lists are fun admittedly, but top players are sucking tier lists dry atm and it is hard to take them any seriously anymore.

Huff... huff. Alright, rant complete.

I’m with you on being tired of these tier lists but they do them for twitch subs and views. They’ll set a goal and then make a tier list if they reach this goal and it gets them a popular clickbait YouTube video and helps them meet their sub/viewer goals because people eat up tier lists for some reason

I think it’s annoying and pretty much pointless and could do without seeing another pro made tier list for a very long time. I don’t even think the pros take them all that seriously themselves, it’s just great clickbait