Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[J0eyboi]

Which characters do we think have the best neutral game in ultimate?

Sheik's neutral is still really good; unlike her damage and kill setups, it was basically untouched.

Cloud's neutral is also extremely strong, as it pretty much has to be now that he doesn't have a reliable way to start juggles.

I don't think there's any one character who has the objective best neutral. However, I think the best possible neutral in the game would be a Shulk who's always in Speed Art. The ability to throw out hitboxes as massive as Shulk's as fast as he can in Speed Art, combined with the highest airspeed, best initial dash, and second fastest run in the game, make him downright oppressive. His only real problem is that he can't fullhop to platforms, but given that Shulk has some of the best sharking and platform pressure tools in the game, that's barely an issue.

Fortunately, Shulk has timers and cooldowns on his Monado Arts to prevent him from being the uncontested best character in the game and also pretty much completely broken.

 

[LightLV]

I've been looking at Mewtwo's basic jab lately, and I think it might be underutilized.

While it no longer pops the opponent up like it did in Smash 4, leading into easy jab-grab situations, the fact that it has such low knockback on Ultimate might be to its advantage.

Mewtwo jab is active on frames 6-7 with a first active frame of 23. For comparison, Lucina/Marth's is frames 5-6 with an FAF of 26. If Mewtwo single jabs an opponent at 0%, it's 0 on frame advantage, meaning both of them can act out of the move at the exact same time

However, as opponent damage increases, jab's advantage on hit increases, about 1 frame for every 50%. So at 100% on the opponent, single jab is +2 on hit. At 150%, +3. And because jab has such low knockback, it means the opponent more or less stands in place while getting hit even up to 200%, unlike down tilt which eventually can send them too far.

Mewtwo's fastest attacks are frame 6, so absolutely nothing is guaranteed except for the jab combo follow-up. However, it can potentially place the opponent in a tricky mixup situation. Do they start smash DI-ing in anticipation of the jab combo? If so, they might leave themselves vulnerable to a down tilt or something else. Do they shield? Then they might get grabbed. Other possible escape options exist, but they more or less all have counterplay on Mewtwo's part. And again, unlike a lot of attacks, the opponent hasn't flown away anywhere.

The only really difficult thing on Mewtwo's side is precision. If Mewtwo tries a non-special follow-up too soon, it automatically leads into a jab combo.

0 advantage mixups are really risky, i'd never rely on them. Its not true advantage and against characters who can box better than you and it's usually susceptible to mashing, so you're actually just putting yourself into disadvantage.

But most importantly it's susceptible to mashing and has no real followups, and jab gimmicks were deliberately nuked in this game.

Zelda has been dying to Marth since 2001 and I doubt anything has changed now, for him or his clones.

I imagine Cloud and Shulk devour her completely.

Zelda can like, actually zone on this game.

and Shulk devours literally everyone in this game while in speed mode

 

[Rizen]

sort of is in an equivalent position to Ganon in Ultimate. She's much more functional and scary if she outplays you. But ultimately she's on the weaker end of the spectrum. She's not great but you have to take her seriously.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

So looking at that TTS aggregate weighted results sheet, amongst bottom half of the list, which characters might be a deep sleeper? (and any big surprises?)

#37    Falco    21
#38    Ice Climbers    19
#38    Marth    19
#40    Luigi    18
#41    Diddy Kong    17
#42    Robin    16
#43    C. Falcon    15
#44    Sheik    14.75
#45    Dark Pit    14
#45    Meta Knight    14
#45    Samus/D.Samus    14
#45    Zelda    14
#49    Shulk    13
#50    Dr. Mario    12.75
#51    Jigglypuff    11
#52    Villager    10
#52    Lucas    10
#54    Isabelle    9.5
#55    Lucario    9
#55    Incineroar    9
#57    Duck Hunt    8
#57    Ganondorf    8
#59    Wii Fit Trainer    7.5
#60    Mii Swordfighter    7
#61    Little Mac    4
#61    Mii Gunner    4
#61    Rosalina    4
#61    Corrin    4
#65    Piranha Plant    3
#66    Ken    2
#67    Kirby    1
#67    King K. Rool    1
#67    Mii Brawler    1
#70    Ryu    0
#70    Pit    0
#70    Bowser Jr.    0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/edit#gid=0

I personally think that Marth, Corrin, and (sorta) Shulk are all stronger than characters above them but are being overshadowed by similar characters who are perceived as being even stronger.

 

[bc1910]

A friend I play a lot of friendlies with loathes Farore's Wind. I think he's just barely this side of calling it broken.

Is dthrow > bair true? I have an easy time getting sweetspots with it but IDK if it's a thing or just user error, e.g. bad DI or whatever.

And I never remember to use Phantom or Din's Fire when offstage, which is a pity now that I think about it.

Dthrow Bair is true on DI away and probably no DI. Dthrow Uair might be true on DI in, it registers as a true combo in training mode but the combo counter is off by a few frames and I haven’t tested extensively. Zelda’s throw mixups are pretty good for KOs if you can react to DI though.

Overall I’d agree that the lack of a “proper” Fair is really damaging for her. Bair and Fair are good moves but having two of them is totally redundant. Leaving Bair as it is and giving her a good Fair for spacing or maybe approaching would buff her hugely. Something like Ness’s would do.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Not a zelda main, but I play a lot against her (one of my sparring partners main zelda + an other one at locals), and I think you are right on this.

She is downright oppressive when you are forced to play her game and/or are a tall character (these are usually correlated). You can't give her too much room to breathe because otherwise Phantom gets stage control on half the stage. You can't projectile camp her because she has a reflector (note : unlike wolf, it beats mewtwo in a shadow ball ping pong game, ie she can reflect the ball twice) and if you do anything slightly laggy she can just teleport on you.
Then at the ledge you have randoms fire balls to bait airdodges, Phantom (I hate this move), and a good enough recovery to fish for random dair and make it back.
But if you try to fight her close, you have to play around Naryu which will beat pretty much everything if you don't bait it, anything unsafe on shield will be met with a kick/teleport out of shield, teleport is really difficult to edgegard (well it's technically easy to 2 frame, but she can just teleport on you or throw random fireballs/Phantoms to mix it up). Add reasonable grounded options (fsmash is beefy) and good throw combos, and you got a pretty annoying character to play against. Mewtwo VS Zelda feels like the dark souls of matchups (lol): it's technically doable (speeeeeeed), but if do any mistake you die/take 30% + lose stage control and gl hf to take it back. Ridley VS Zelda is a chore in neutral, but at least you don't die at 50 from a random kick at the ledge.

But what if the opponents has the tools to play a safe oppressive neutral? Someone like wolf or greninja, who can afford to press safe buttons in neutral, without leaving her the time to charge phantom. That's where her lack of safe aerials to throw around comes in, as well as her below average mobility and frame data. I might be a bit biased on this one as it's mostly based on personal experience (ie I haven't taken the time to watch any pro zelda vs wolf/gren match), but it really feels like she struggles to dictates the tempo of the match in those matchups.

She is probably fine as/with a secondary though. How is her matchup against swordies/palutena?

I'm still learning the character and I haven't really managed to fight a Palutena or Lucina yet, believe it or not. I've fought a couple of Peaches though and they were a huge pain to fight because they could just float above Phantom's Range to stall it out. What's Zelda gonna do in that scenario, jump up and use an aerial on them? That also brings up a huge weakness of Phantom's in neutral. If you know that move's range its sometimes not hard to just wait it out when she starts charging it.

I fought a Chrom player and the entire match was determined by how well I managed to camp him out with phantom. Once he got into my face his sword and speed made him very hard to contest with Zelda's grounded game of footsies. Then there was landing in that match up. Her aerials don't do much to protect her, so Chrom was able to put a lot of pressure on her in disadvantage. Farore's Wind could be used to land, but it can't be relied on since it's laggy enough to be punished on a call out. I think rushdown is a big weakness of hers for this reason, although not totally undoable for her thanks to Nayru's and Farore's OoS coming in clutch.

 

[peekpeek]

So looking at that TTS aggregate weighted results sheet, amongst bottom half of the list, which characters might be a deep sleeper? (and any big surprises?)

#37    Falco    21
#38    Ice Climbers    19
#38    Marth    19
#40    Luigi    18
#41    Diddy Kong    17
#42    Robin    16
#43    C. Falcon    15
#44    Sheik    14.75
#45    Dark Pit    14
#45    Meta Knight    14
#45    Samus/D.Samus    14
#45    Zelda    14
#49    Shulk    13
#50    Dr. Mario    12.75
#51    Jigglypuff    11
#52    Villager    10
#52    Lucas    10
#54    Isabelle    9.5
#55    Lucario    9
#55    Incineroar    9
#57    Duck Hunt    8
#57    Ganondorf    8
#59    Wii Fit Trainer    7.5
#60    Mii Swordfighter    7
#61    Little Mac    4
#61    Mii Gunner    4
#61    Rosalina    4
#61    Corrin    4
#65    Piranha Plant    3
#66    Ken    2
#67    Kirby    1
#67    King K. Rool    1
#67    Mii Brawler    1
#70    Ryu    0
#70    Pit    0
#70    Bowser Jr.    0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/edit#gid=0

I personally think that Marth, Corrin, and (sorta) Shulk are all stronger than characters above them but are being overshadowed by similar characters who are perceived as being even stronger.

Shulk is better than the results indicate, but hard to learn and from a relatively unpopular series.

Marth is better than those results indicate but there's not a lot of reason to play him over Lucina (probably a top 5 character) so his placement is misleading.

Post-buff Incineroar is better than that.

Piranha Plant is obviously better than listed.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So looking at that TTS aggregate weighted results sheet, amongst bottom half of the list, which characters might be a deep sleeper? (and any big surprises?)

#37    Falco    21
#38    Ice Climbers    19
#38    Marth    19
#40    Luigi    18
#41    Diddy Kong    17
#42    Robin    16
#43    C. Falcon    15
#44    Sheik    14.75
#45    Dark Pit    14
#45    Meta Knight    14
#45    Samus/D.Samus    14
#45    Zelda    14
#49    Shulk    13
#50    Dr. Mario    12.75
#51    Jigglypuff    11
#52    Villager    10
#52    Lucas    10
#54    Isabelle    9.5
#55    Lucario    9
#55    Incineroar    9
#57    Duck Hunt    8
#57    Ganondorf    8
#59    Wii Fit Trainer    7.5
#60    Mii Swordfighter    7
#61    Little Mac    4
#61    Mii Gunner    4
#61    Rosalina    4
#61    Corrin    4
#65    Piranha Plant    3
#66    Ken    2
#67    Kirby    1
#67    King K. Rool    1
#67    Mii Brawler    1
#70    Ryu    0
#70    Pit    0
#70    Bowser Jr.    0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/edit#gid=0

I personally think that Marth, Corrin, and (sorta) Shulk are all stronger than characters above them but are being overshadowed by similar characters who are perceived as being even stronger.

I guess it depends on what's considered a "sleeper." If we use a more general definition of "characters that aren't all that bad despite a lack of use or whatever," then I'd go with .

(Dark) Samus: Surprisingly fluid? I can't really put my finger on it, but Samus just flows a lot better than she used to, I feel, and Dark Samus is literally her but edgy so the same thing applies.

Shulk: Le potential but seriously Arts are busted and we should probably be thanking our lucky stars they have short durations and long cooldowns. I think he'll always run afoul of the old chestnut about "why invest all this time when I could use someone simpler" but at the same time I don't think he's even a bad character. Just perhaps too complex to use for his own good.

Lucas: Bias as a Brawl-era Lucas main, perhaps, but he always seems to end up overshadowed by Ness. He still has the old headbutt uair, at least, which I know some Ness players lament losing, and he's much more comfortable offstage thanks to a longer PKT2 and a tether on top of that.

Incineroar: I've always thought that even if a superheavy loses a matchup on paper, you still need to respect them because they can usually blow you up in just a few hits. Incineroar takes that to its logical conclusion through Revenge, which means you can't even zone him with projectiles without risking him powering up on each hit and then doing, what, 40% in a single hit if he lands the right move? And he already hits like a truck to begin with.

 

[Omnos]

Salem said he's going to be releasing a "characters with potential" list instead of a new tier list like most streamers/top players.

Should be interesting to see who he considers to be sleepers at this point in the game.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I would say that pit and corrin arr the biggest sleeper characters ATM. They don't have anyone playing them but they both have very strong tools and good buttons. I believe they have the best chance of get picked up if they're played by anyone competent.

 

[ATH_]

Corrin still has neat tools and a million kill-options but going from Smash 4 to Ultimate Corrin she feels much weaker. Maybe it's the emphasis on characters with better frame-data or maybe it's because her recovery is worse, it feels like a little bit of everything.

Personally dropped Corrin over being gimped way too easily. Her up-special feels like Roy's but without the poking above the ledge. She has the potential to be really good in neutral and can kill pretty easily (instapin, neutral special) but she feels risky in the same vein as Chrom with his recovery.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think Corrin is pretty mediocre in this game. In Smash 4, she was a character with a pretty average recovery and lackluster mobility, but she made up for it with a stupidly good move in pin, a decent kill move in Dragon Fang Shot, good aerials, and a decent killthrow. In Ultimate, pin was nerfed hard, her recovery was nerfed hard, and Dragon Fang Shot? It was nerfed hard. Oh, and her fair got slower, because why not? And her killthrow was nerfed. She's not a terrible character, but she's mediocre and there's little reason to play her when there are so many better swordfighters available.

Some characters I think are a bit underrated right now: Shulk, Zero Suit Samus, and Greninja, all three of them have the potential to be high tier (or maybe even top tier).

 

[|RK|]

.

Pichu is easier to play than Pikachu? That's news to me. I always hear the opposite, including that Pikachu's nair loops are significantly easier than Pichu's bair loops.

Plus, if Pika has better disadvantage, range, and neutral, yet still manages to be harder, I think that illustrates that he's worse. The two characters have many similarities, after all.

Also... Kinda disingenuous. ESAM specifically has a Samus secondary, while Captain L's secondary is Kirby. I feel like that's an important detail.

Furthermore, VoiD is on record saying that it's dumb to play one character in a patch-based game. He has a Wolf, sure. But he also has Roy and Peach. It's more covering his bases - and also, why stick through a tough MU (that Pikachu also loses, according to ESAM) when you have that many characters to choose from?

 

[Frihetsanka]

.

Yeah, what I've been hearing is that Pikachu is much harder to play than Pichu; and yes, even ESAM admits that Pichu's Lightning Loops are harder than Pikachu's Nair Loops. I also think it's fairly likely that Pikachu is, overall, a bit worse than Pichu, but ESAM makes a pretty strong case for Pikachu being stronger (as a solo main). If ESAM's Pikachu MU chart is correct, then Pikachu likely is better (though I think ESAM is too optimistic). Anyway, we're 2 month into the game, I think we should keep in mind that much has yet to be discovered.

I don't recall ESAM using Samus at Genesis 6, but he did at some tournaments prior to that, so that's my bad, I guess (and he's also talked about using Yoshi).

 

[PK Gaming]

I didn't, I also mentioned range, which is huge.

Saying "Pikachu's extra range is huge" is useless to me if you can't elucidate. How? Why? In which matchups does it come in handy and for what moves in particular? You're basically dumping the work onto everyone else instead of doing it yourself.

Oh, and why is that? If Pichu wins every matchup but, say, 7, and Pichu mains almost never seem to run into those MUs (or switch to a secondary if they do), then we should keep that in mind when evaluating Pichu's tournament results. Even VoiD used Wolf to deal with Shuton's Olimar (he got 2-stocked with Pichu and then switched to Wolf and won the set).

"Pichu is doing well because people aren't using the characters that beat it" is both an argument that can also apply to Pikachu (or any character for that matter) and not a particularly useful discussion point. It's just not a valid way of viewing things. If Pichu's results plummet and Pikachu's results rise then that read becomes valid, but until then it's pointless guesswork.

Pichu is easier and arguably more fun to play than Pikachu, and some of the things Pikachu does better than Pichu can be pretty boring (Pikachu is better at playing campy, for instance, but most players, I would imagine, don't like playing campy). It's no surprise that a character with more players get more results, especially since Pikachu is harder to play. It's also notable that ESAM seems to stick with Pikachu more often while Pichu main often seem to have a secondary to fall back on.

You brought this up before, but I don't think "Pichu being more fun to play" is something most top players have legitimately considered when using Pichu over Pikachu in tournaments. Things like generally "better reward" and "more explosive KO ability" are more accurate. Similarly, while I don't doubt Pikachu is harder than Pichu its not to the degree that would dissuade from someone from away from using Pikachu.

That brings up another point for discussion: Should tier lists be based only on solo viability or on the character's value as a whole? Some characters are great secondaries or do great with a secondary, while others are solid overall but don't have the same strengths. I believe that tier lists should determine solo viability, so characters with great strengths and notable weaknesses might be lower on a tier list than characters with a more overall strength/weakness spread. With that in mind, it's possible that if we had an equal amount of Pikachu/Pichu players at top level, and everyone solo mained, Pikachu would do better

There are very, very few truly solo viable characters in this game. Also, it's not hard to determine which characters consistently dominate (Lucina, Peach, Pichu, Fox, etc) and which characters are purely pocket potential. Also ESAM has used pocket characters before to cover the matchups he dislikes in Ultimate's meta.

Now, am I saying that Pikachu for sure is better as a solo character than Pichu? No, I don't know whether he is or not. I'm saying it's possible, and more than a bit probable. The argument can be had, and it's not obvious that Pichu is a better solo main than Pikachu (though Pichu + secondary being better than Pikachu + secondary is a different story, and I won't contest that Pichu is most likely better in that scenario).

I hate to be blunt, but all signs point to Pichu being better than Pikachu in Smash Ultimate currently. Even has grudgingly admitted to that (though I doubt he'll have that opinion for long)

 

[Yonder]

So looking at that TTS aggregate weighted results sheet, amongst bottom half of the list, which characters might be a deep sleeper? (and any big surprises?)

#37    Falco    21
#38    Ice Climbers    19
#38    Marth    19
#40    Luigi    18
#41    Diddy Kong    17
#42    Robin    16
#43    C. Falcon    15
#44    Sheik    14.75
#45    Dark Pit    14
#45    Meta Knight    14
#45    Samus/D.Samus    14
#45    Zelda    14
#49    Shulk    13
#50    Dr. Mario    12.75
#51    Jigglypuff    11
#52    Villager    10
#52    Lucas    10
#54    Isabelle    9.5
#55    Lucario    9
#55    Incineroar    9
#57    Duck Hunt    8
#57    Ganondorf    8
#59    Wii Fit Trainer    7.5
#60    Mii Swordfighter    7
#61    Little Mac    4
#61    Mii Gunner    4
#61    Rosalina    4
#61    Corrin    4
#65    Piranha Plant    3
#66    Ken    2
#67    Kirby    1
#67    King K. Rool    1
#67    Mii Brawler    1
#70    Ryu    0
#70    Pit    0
#70    Bowser Jr.    0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/edit#gid=0

I personally think that Marth, Corrin, and (sorta) Shulk are all stronger than characters above them but are being overshadowed by similar characters who are perceived as being even stronger.

Pit. Very, very good character. Straight buffed from 4. The PGR Dark Pit player in our region (who says DP is better but they are the same essentially) has reguarly gotten top 8s. My friend in particular has beaten Shofu, Kossimoss, and Nicko in online friendlies with pit but that's not much of a backing lol...

Ill find something. Pit MAD underrated. Basicailly having more kill moves like dash attack and fair did wonders. Don't forget about that top 5 f smash for kills/power...

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Pit. Very, very good character. Straight buffed from 4. The PGR Dark Pit player in our region (who says DP is better but they are the same essentially) has reguarly gotten top 8s. My friend in particular has beaten Shofu, Kossimoss, and Nicko in online friendlies with pit but that's not much of a backing lol...

Ill find something. Pit MAD underrated. Basicailly having more kill moves like dash attack and fair did wonders. Don't forget about that top 5 f smash for kills/power...

I think your PGR player is dead wrong about D pit being better than pit. The main thing that separates them is the arrows and since pit can use them in more ways than D pit it gives him a massive advantage.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I think your PGR player is dead wrong about D pit being better than pit. The main thing that separates them is the arrows and since pit can use them in more ways than D pit it gives him a massive advantage.

Dark Pit's arrows are notably faster and deal a nontrivial amount of (shield) damage/stun so they're much preferable as a neutral tool than Pit's, and he's still really strong off stage without Pit's arrows.

 

[Laken64]

I think your PGR player is dead wrong about D pit being better than pit. The main thing that separates them is the arrows and since pit can use them in more ways than D pit it gives him a massive advantage.

Dark pit's arrows are faster, deal more knockback and damage as well as last longer than pit's arrows. Then there's his side b which does a ton of shield damage along with having a MUCH better angle (43° compared to Pit's 80°) for stupidly early kills on the side of the stage So overall his arrows are faster and have more priority as well as kill. So overall D pit's arrows are faster have more priority as well as kill potential and his side b can kill at dumb percents while pit's can kill consistently vertically but much later.

The thing I want to know is does it really matter who's better, the two differences between them are pretty obvious (arrows to gimp vs raw kill power in one move) but is pit really going to be significantly higher dark pit because his arrows are better for gimping? Minus the arrows they both have amazing tools to edgeguard in down, forward and back aerials, pits arrows is just a cherry on top of all those options. And if you're a pit main odds are you probably use them both depending on the matchup (or just plain preference)

 

[|RK|]

I think your PGR player is dead wrong about D pit being better than pit. The main thing that separates them is the arrows and since pit can use them in more ways than D pit it gives him a massive advantage.

In Smash 4, certainly. In Ultimate, Dark Pit's arrows being able to kill and providing a good about of damage and hitstun make them pretty damn useful.

You'd expect regular Pit's arrows to be more useful, but most of the top tiers find them to be more of an annoyance. Save for Wolf, of course.

EDIT: I see I just said the same thing as everyone else, but slower lol

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Pit cannot control his arrows so they usefulness of the arrows are extremely limited. Since they really only shot in a straight line they're not going to cover as many options as pits arrows.

I do think it's important for us to rate the differences between the pits and not just consider them one character. The difference in arrows is enough to separate them.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I second Pit being a better character now, I don't believe he lost anything in the transition, he just got better overal. Improved damage output, still has a solid neutral, good projectile, can kill a lot better now with just his raw power improved on his aerials and with air dodge nerfs his already good edge guard game got a lot better. Having multiple jumps that he can actually cover a bit more distance that other multi jumpers helps his disadvantage out a lot compared to other characters in this air dodge nerfed world as well.

Regarding his arrows, it's more generally what you prefer for the matchup. Are you playing against characters who are very exploitable off stage like the Belmonts? You may prefer Pit's arrows for better edge guarding while still retaining use in neutral. Playing against a a M2 or Yoshi who gets back to stage a lot easier? You may prefer Dark Pit's to have a better neutral tool that still retain some edge guarding capabilities. Playing against a Pichu who likes or cover his approach with Tjolts? Dark Pit's electroshock arm punishes that so hard the Pichu better pray he isn't close to ledge.

Use the Pit who's specials better fit the MU.

 

[MG_3989]

Yeah, what I've been hearing is that Pikachu is much harder to play than Pichu; and yes, even ESAM admits that Pichu's Lightning Loops are harder than Pikachu's Nair Loops. I also think it's fairly likely that Pikachu is, overall, a bit worse than Pichu, but ESAM makes a pretty strong case for Pikachu being stronger (as a solo main). If ESAM's Pikachu MU chart is correct, then Pikachu likely is better (though I think ESAM is too optimistic). Anyway, we're 2 month into the game, I think we should keep in mind that much has yet to be discovered.

I don't recall ESAM using Samus at Genesis 6, but he did at some tournaments prior to that, so that's my bad, I guess (and he's also talked about using Yoshi).

If his matchup chart is correct I agree that Pikachu is better too. I don’t think Pichu has a good matchup with Ness nor Olimar either and may have a harder time with sword characters due to his range (Void played pretty well against them though but Void was playing out of his mind that entire tournament)

It doesn’t help either of them that Ness and Olimar are highly active in the meta right now with I think three of each being in the top 64 of Genesis but that’s kind of off topic in the Pichu vs Pikachu debate. Also I haven’t been keeping track, has anybody other than ESAM been getting results with Pikachu?

Also agreed that Pit is a good character who will surprise. He has good aerials, a great recovery, he’s quick, he can edgeguard by going off stage and using his arrows, his smashes are surpringsly fast, and his range is just below the swordies. People just seem to not like using him for whatever reason

 

[Ark of Silence101]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OaAiDPmlt6k
An interesting vid highlighting the differences of Chroy's aerials.

 

[MG_3989]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OaAiDPmlt6k
An interesting vid highlighting the differences of Chroy's aerials.

It seems like Roy’s aerials are better in general but again it can come down to personal preference. Roy’s Uair having a huge advantage over Chrom’s weighs it in Roy’s favor I think. Chrom’s nair is better though and it’s a better combo tool and can be used in a more situations than Roy’s uair so it’s close but I think Roy wins it

 

[Ark of Silence101]

It seems like Roy’s aerials are better in general but again it can come down to personal preference. Roy’s Uair having a huge advantage over Chrom’s weighs it in Roy’s favor I think. Chrom’s nair is better though and it’s a better combo tool and can be used in a more situations than Roy’s uair so it’s close but I think Roy wins it

Like I said in a previous post, who is better is a matter of preference, for me Roy's style is too engraved in me to look elsewhere, though I occasionally dab on Chrom.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Might need to return to my first main. Them Uair set-ups on Roy looking CRISP!!

 

[SwagGuy99]

So looking at that TTS aggregate weighted results sheet, amongst bottom half of the list, which characters might be a deep sleeper? (and any big surprises?)

#37    Falco    21
#38    Ice Climbers    19
#38    Marth    19
#40    Luigi    18
#41    Diddy Kong    17
#42    Robin    16
#43    C. Falcon    15
#44    Sheik    14.75
#45    Dark Pit    14
#45    Meta Knight    14
#45    Samus/D.Samus    14
#45    Zelda    14
#49    Shulk    13
#50    Dr. Mario    12.75
#51    Jigglypuff    11
#52    Villager    10
#52    Lucas    10
#54    Isabelle    9.5
#55    Lucario    9
#55    Incineroar    9
#57    Duck Hunt    8
#57    Ganondorf    8
#59    Wii Fit Trainer    7.5
#60    Mii Swordfighter    7
#61    Little Mac    4
#61    Mii Gunner    4
#61    Rosalina    4
#61    Corrin    4
#65    Piranha Plant    3
#66    Ken    2
#67    Kirby    1
#67    King K. Rool    1
#67    Mii Brawler    1
#70    Ryu    0
#70    Pit    0
#70    Bowser Jr.    0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/edit#gid=0

I personally think that Marth, Corrin, and (sorta) Shulk are all stronger than characters above them but are being overshadowed by similar characters who are perceived as being even stronger.

, , , , , , , , and I think also have the potential to be better than this.

Also, I'm noticing that isn't on this list like I would have thought. I actually thought he'd be on here.

 

[Frihetsanka]

On Results:

Something important to keep in mind: Results are probably more important now since the meta is so young, but results can still be misleading (and the Smashboards majority view isn't always correct). One clear example of this is the third backroom tier list for Smash 4, released March 1 2017. Corrin, a character with somewhat lackluster results, got 13th, which many people thought was far too high (many even argued that she was a mid tier). Some people (me included) argued that Corrin was a good character who deserved to be placed around that area. Some time later Cosmos was able to travel more and Corrin started getting results, and by the time the fourth tier list came (December 11 2017) few people questioned Corrin's placement (13th). It seems likely that those who thought Corrin was placed too high back then put too much emphasis on results and not enough emphasis on analyzing the characters. It's understandable, since it's easier to look at results and draw conclusions from there, but that's a flawed way of reasoning and in many cases it hinges on a few players doing well, especially for characters below top 5 or so.

It's also important to remember that the meta is very young. If you look at early impressions of Smash 4 characters you'll see a lot of strange ideas, and chances are there's a lot we don't know or haven't factored into. I'd be careful making overly bold statements at this point in time; remember, it's quite possible for a minority to be correct and for the majority to be wrong.

 

[Browny]

Incineroar: and then doing, what, 40% in a single hit if he lands the right move? And he already hits like a truck to begin with.

A lot more than that lol... if some wolf is being careless and lets him revenge 3 lasers, darkest lariat (frame 5) can break a shield and then you're taking 100.8% from a full charge fsmash. Smashes and lariat are easily doing >55% normally

 

[Impax]

I wouldnt know, but I'm surprised no one feels wii fit trainer could be underranked. The few that play her seem pretty high on her. Want to say ace thinks shes high tier.

I hear a lot of divided opinions on characters like jgglypuff and falco.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I wouldnt know, but I'm surprised no one feels wii fit trainer could be underranked. The few that play her seem pretty high on her. Want to say ace thinks shes high tier.

She might be, for the time being I'm leaning more towards high-mid though. Got any recommendations for good sets with WFT to watch?

 

[Impax]

She might be, for the time being I'm leaning more towards high-mid though. Got any recommendations for good sets with WFT to watch?

I'll try to remember to look through the videos I've liked later.
I tend to watch best ness, balance , varun,mint, sogoodpop.

Best ness seems known in the community, but I think it was sogoodpop that had a close set against Fow.

 

[bc1910]

Pit cannot control his arrows so they usefulness of the arrows are extremely limited. Since they really only shot in a straight line they're not going to cover as many options as pits arrows.

I do think it's important for us to rate the differences between the pits and not just consider them one character. The difference in arrows is enough to separate them.

The problem with Pit’s arrows is their pathetic knockback offstage. At low-mid percent they’re only good to snipe jumps from opponents who aren’t expecting it or don’t know how to handle them. You can basically just tank the hit and recover afterward except at really high percents and even then the knockback is only notable if Pit charges the arrows, which is easy to react to. So usually Pit needs to go offstage to edgeguard eventually, same as Dark Pit.

Pit’s arrows are certainly more versatile and are better edgeguarding tools at high percent but the advantages of Dark Pit’s arrows being faster and more powerful aren’t negligible, particularly in neutral and even for edgeguarding; DP’s are strictly better if he is level with his opponent. The advantages of Pit’s arrows aren’t enough to say definitively which arrows are better, let alone which character.

For what it’s worth I can see Pit’s being better once they’re optimised (forcing opponents into situations where they have to jump then sniping the jump) but right now I’d take DP’s.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Marss beat Leo, void, wadi last night with ZSS to win MSM

 

[Omnos]

Marss has been playing like a beast lately, really impressive. I think he's the most deserving player of a spot at the Summit right now. Tweek as well, of course.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Yea I think can definelty reach high tier level. Yeah she is technically nerfed from 4. But she does gets some advantages from Ultimates mechanices. Her punish game is still amazing and she can edgeguard and chase offstage superwell. It could be that Marss is one of the players that really goes all out with edgeguarding now.
I think ZSS might win vs due to how easily she can foil his recovery options.
Also a thought actually beats now from what I have seen. Yeah F.O.X has the advantage over R.O.B onstage, but R.O.B absolutely annihaltes Fox offstage. Arm Rotor basically erases Fox Illusion as a recovery option, gyro and beam are also good at disrupting it nd R.O.B's dair easily spikes straight-vertical Fire-Fox from below the ledge

 

[Heracr055]

ZSS traded some of her polarizing options (specifically those tied to rage in 4) for a kit that actually works. This gives her a better neutral than in 4. And she can still kill at early percents. Fox is her worst MU at this time

Edit for below: ZSS SH fair can actually hit Pikachu and Pichu on the ground so that's a pretty good help in those MUs

 

[Frihetsanka]

It helps ZSS that Bayonetta, Cloud, Diddy Kong, and Sheik all got nerfed, since those were considered some of her worst matchups in 4 (Pikachu got buffed though).

 

[KakuCP9]

Yea I think can definelty reach high tier level. Yeah she is technically nerfed from 4. But she does gets some advantages from Ultimates mechanices. Her punish game is still amazing and she can edgeguard and chase offstage superwell. It could be that Marss is one of the players that really goes all out with edgeguarding now.
I think ZSS might win vs and Possibly Fox due to how easily she can foil their recovery options

IIRC, I remember Shaya saying something about how ZSS's nerfed ground game hurt her MU against Fox making him the one character who legit beats her. Plus, using ZSS's precise hixboxes and low active frames probably isn't going to fun against someone like Fox.