Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Ziodyne 21]

wat

Post-buff, her slowest aerial is Bair, at frame 10. Her aerials aren't that slow.



What the actual **** are you talking about? Puff has 2 tilts that kill, Utilt and Dtilt. Even outside of that, 2 of her aerials, Nair and Bair, also kill. She's not restricted to Rest and smash attacks for killing; you're thinking of Wario.

Well umm..what are you talking about regarding Wario he is certianly not restricted to Waft or Smash attacks.bair, dair , dash attack and even Chomp at the ledge that can all kill as well

 

[Rizen]

Spoiler: Genesi6 top 64

https://smash.gg/tournament/genesis-6/events/smash-for-switch-singles/standings
Genesi6 (Oakland, CA) (2,105 entrants)


1 MKLeo
2 Void
3 Samsora
4 Dabuz
5 light
5 Zackray
7 Cosmos
7 Esam
9 yeti
9 Myran
9 CaptainZack
9 Tweek
13 Salem
13 Prodigy
13 Shuton
13 MVD
17 Larry Lurr
17 Dark Wizzy
17 sdx
17 Nairo
17 Leffen
17 8BitMan
17 Glutonny
17 K9sbruce
25 Marss
25 Abadango
25 FOW
25 Sinji
25 Wadi
25 Ally
25 sonix
25 Magister
33 Lima
33 ZD
33 Lui$
33 Regi
33 Help! Stroder
33 Big D
33 Zenyou
33 Mr E
33 Shaky
33 BestNess
33 Klaatu
33 ImHip
33 Umeki
33 Captain L
33 Nakat
33 Kobe
49 Rain
49 Sparg0
49 Legit
49 La Luna
49 Plup
49 Eldin
49 TLTC
49 MuteAce
49 Eon
49 Nietono
49 Z
49 Pandarian
49 Btlc EZ
49 Shogun
49 EMG False
49 Seagull Joe

There are a lot of solo mains. Playing a pair of characters can help but isn't necessary, especially if you main a top tier.

Another thing to note is the saturation of certain characters. There are tons of Pichus, Wolfs, Princesses, Foxes, Nesses (what's the plural on Ness, lol?), Olimars, Snakes, and less-so Palutenas, ROBs and Lucinas. Heck I even see several Marios. This is one tournament but also part of a bigger pattern. There are characters who pop up once in top 8s like Young Link and characters who fill them like Wolf and Peach/Daisy. We're starting to get a clear picture of who the top tiers are, as opposed to high tiers.

 

[J0eyboi]

I just want to take some time to appreciate the fact that Prodigy, a 13-year-old prodigy, got 13th.

Also, the PNW did pretty damn well. Captain L, Pandarian, Magister, and Big D all making top 64 is p cool.

Well umm..what are you talking about regarding Wario he is certianly not restricted to Waft or Smash attacks.bair, dair , dash attack and even Chomp at the ledge that can all kill as well

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

(to be completely honest, I was thinking of Smash 4 Wario, who had a much harder time killing on account of Bair and Dair being super unsafe and dash attack and chomp not being kill moves)

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Spoiler: Genesi6 top 64

https://smash.gg/tournament/genesis-6/events/smash-for-switch-singles/standings
Genesi6 (Oakland, CA) (2,105 entrants)


1 MKLeo
2 Void
3 Samsora
4 Dabuz
5 light
5 Zackray
7 Cosmos
7 Esam
9 yeti
9 Myran
9 CaptainZack
9 Tweek
13 Salem
13 Prodigy
13 Shuton
13 MVD
17 Larry Lurr
17 Dark Wizzy
17 sdx
17 Nairo
17 Leffen
17 8BitMan
17 Glutonny
17 K9sbruce
25 Marss
25 Abadango
25 FOW
25 Sinji
25 Wadi
25 Ally
25 sonix
25 Magister
33 Lima
33 ZD
33 Lui$
33 Regi
33 Help! Stroder
33 Big D
33 Zenyou
33 Mr E
33 Shaky
33 BestNess
33 Klaatu
33 ImHip
33 Umeki
33 Captain L
33 Nakat
33 Kobe
49 Rain
49 Sparg0
49 Legit
49 La Luna
49 Plup
49 Eldin
49 TLTC
49 MuteAce
49 Eon
49 Nietono
49 Z
49 Pandarian
49 Btlc EZ
49 Shogun
49 EMG False
49 Seagull Joe

There are a lot of solo mains. Playing a pair of characters can help but isn't necessary, especially if you main a top tier.

Another thing to note is the saturation of certain characters. There are tons of Pichus, Wolfs, Princesses, Foxes, Nesses (what's the plural on Ness, lol?), Olimars, Snakes, and less-so Palutenas, ROBs and Lucinas. Heck I even see several Marios. This is one tournament but also part of a bigger pattern. There are characters who pop up once in top 8s like Young Link and characters who fill them like Wolf and Peach/Daisy. We're starting to get a clear picture of who the top tiers are, as opposed to high tiers.

Ok so far here is my opinions

Top-Tiers, may have a few flaws and somewhat difficult MU's but there strengths more than make up for them. Can be potentially more sucessful as solo mains than the rest of the cast.

/

High tiers. Still very strong, but their weakness are more apparent and exploitable, namely by many top-tiers. Leading to more bad MU's and may need to use another character to cover them to get say..top 8 placings in major tournaments like G6


I was thinking maybe Wario, Inkling and Lucina high instead of top, but i think they hsvd been proven to be stronger than the rest. They could drop depending om how the meta shapes.

As for characters with "potential" to be high tier. The following come to mind for me . But they do not quite have the represnation or results to be considered that good yet

 

[Frihetsanka]

What the actual **** are you talking about? Puff has 2 tilts that kill, Utilt and Dtilt. Even outside of that, 2 of her aerials, Nair and Bair, also kill.

Dash attack is also a surprisingly good kill option at high %, and nair can kill at really high % (especially off-stage). Oh, and Sing sets up to kills fairly early. High-risk, high-reward, and arguably more safe than Rest in many cases.

Zero Suit Samus is potentially high tier, Ken might be as well. Maybe Mega Man still is, not sure.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Mid tier and low tier mains benefit more from secondaries, but many of them play mid and low tiers because they enjoy those characters and/or want to prove themselves with them, so that lessens the likelihood of them counter-picking. Having a secondary that’s easy to keep fresh can be beneficial (since swinging a -1 MU to +1 does help a lot), but I don’t think it’s going to be necessary if you main a top or high tier.

That’s an interesting point that I hadn’t thought of, but always kind of knew. When watching bracket on stream and a Captain Falcon, Ness, ROB, etc were in a bad matchup I had already written them off.

I think it’s pretty notable that both grand finalists played a secondary at a high level to dig themselves out of a tough match up or two. Even if the majority of players played a solo character, the two who came out on top played at least two at a very high level. Some would say that at least one of the characters each play doesn’t have a lot of intricate character specific tech, either.

So, amongst the top tier, which characters have the most even or better matchups against the top tiers, and which characters struggle in a matchup?

From the tourney last night, it seems like fox and wolf struggle with the electric rats (and shorties in general?). Pichu might have some problems with Olimar. Pokémon Trainer (ivy) struggles with Mega Man (pellets clank razor leafs). Ike was shelved against rats and fox I think. This is all wild speculation since we don’t have much data, but any other observations?

 

[Thinkaman]

has to at least make any list but the tip-top. He is bringing in an abundance of results.
I think is also being overlooked. If we accept that tier lists have any degree of a theoretical component, then surely we expect PT (with their large barrier to entry) to underperform in early tourneys, particularly given the player base. These results for PT were encouraging, not bad news.
While we're at it, . Pika's popularity and resutls are being artificially surpressed by Pichu being more novel, new, and exciting. Pichu could also be better, but you can't deny that these are factors warping Pikachu's representation.
is in a different but similar boat.
massively underperformed his initial hype. For a "top character", he is nowhere.
Speaking of, where's ???
Too soon to call a ghost. If Elegant had a good night instead of a bad one, we'd all be singing a different song. Needs more samples.

Also, bashing for having a poor air game is a really low-brow opinion beneath the standards of this thread. Mac's well-documented and well-discussed deficiencies revolve around platform height, poor disadvantage by virtue of narrow recovery options, and lack of equivalent reward on hit. It would be a trivial exercise to make Mac a top 10 character with as few as 3 small changes.

 

[Swaggy-G]

Can someone explain to me what exactly makes Greninja good? I've seen a ton of people ITT say things like "how can you say [character A] is good and not mention Greninja" and "Greninja is underrated for sure", but rarely see anyone actually discuss his strengths or results. What gives?

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Can someone explain to me what exactly makes Greninja good? I've seen a ton of people ITT say things like "how can you say [character A] is good and not mention Greninja" and "Greninja is underrated for sure", but rarely see anyone actually discuss his strengths or results. What gives?

He’s 14th overall on this weighted results sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs

22nd here
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x8GtQbT_5XkwzpKfGPfTcRNB5LV5vpI_BY2aDoJpopc

If you look at a lot of the perceived top tiers, they only have a single pro propping them up at the highest levels. I think the speculation is that characters like Greninja, Mega Man, Shulk etc just don’t have those pros. It’s fun to imagine but we’ll see if it ever happens.

 

[J0eyboi]

Can someone explain to me what exactly makes Greninja good? I've seen a ton of people ITT say things like "how can you say [character A] is good and not mention Greninja" and "Greninja is underrated for sure", but rarely see anyone actually discuss his strengths or results. What gives?

Cliff's notes version:

• Among the best movement in the game (I'd argue the best but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)
• Amazing dash attack and extremely solid ground moves in general
• Strong combo game / advantage state and overall good damage output
• Extremely strong kill power in Fsmash, Usmash, Fair, and Shadow Sneak, all of which can be set up or confirmed into
• Safe kill options in Bair, Ftilt, Fair, Uair, and Uthrow at higher percents
• Strong projectile in Water Shuriken
• Adaptable, can be played effectively in a lot of different ways

His results are mostly locked in Japan and NY, where Lea and Venia (easily the two best Greninja players in the world rn) live, respectively. Neither have really had a chance to travel much, from what I've heard.

 

[Phosphophyllite]

players are really impressive with how well they've been able to adapt to the changes he got. Some of them are so smooth you'd think it was still Smash 4. Early on I was pretty sure this would be like Melee where would outclass him, but I'm having my doubts about that now.

is still being slept on though, they've got some really scary KO options that give them that heavyweight factor of making you scared to make a move, especially when it comes to Doctor Tornado.

 

[Rizen]

He’s 14th overall on this weighted results sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs

22nd here
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x8GtQbT_5XkwzpKfGPfTcRNB5LV5vpI_BY2aDoJpopc

If you look at a lot of the perceived top tiers, they only have a single pro propping them up at the highest levels. I think the speculation is that characters like Greninja, Mega Man, Shulk etc just don’t have those pros. It’s fun to imagine but we’ll see if it ever happens.

I don't trust those rating because they don't include local tournaments like weeklies. Some of which have 150+ people every time. It shows things like Link tied in results with Ness but if you include Texas tournaments like Ultimate Shockwave 5 (207 entrants) Ness is significantly higher.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

I don't trust those rating because they don't include local tournaments like weeklies. Some of which have 150+ people every time. It shows things like Link tied in results with Ness but if you include Texas tournaments like Ultimate Shockwave 5 (207 entrants) Ness is significantly higher.

Are you sure about that? Check the tournament listings sheet on that second link, lists tons of locals with even less participants. If anything, I’m even more skeptical of that second list because it doesn’t appear to weight the results by the level of competition as much as the first (although I won’t go as far as calling locals in Texas penguins, heh)

 

[KamikazePotato]

I feel like, due to the sheer size of the roster, tier list discussion is going to be...inconsistent. Ever moreso than in previous games. Results are spread thin between so many different character options. Statements like "Luigi's stock rides or dies on one single player" are weirdly true.

 

[NotLiquid]

While we're at it, . Pika's popularity and resutls are being artificially surpressed by Pichu being more novel, new, and exciting. Pichu could also be better, but you can't deny that these are factors warping Pikachu's representation.
is in a different but similar boat.

Bold take, but while I feel like there's enough justifiable reasons to want to pick one over the other in regards to the electric rodents (the same way one would prefer to rock Falco over Fox in Melee), Marth just kinda seems like a character arbitrarily held back by a liability now. It's kind of funny given how he's still technically really good but there's not that much of a reason to actually pick him unless you're an ardent main. It says a lot to me that MKLeo completely dropped him in favor of Lucina when Marth was his best character in Smash 4, I expect he'll retain a solid player base but I wonder whether we'll get to a point where people who stick by him do so out of misplaced loyalty.

 

[Thinkaman]

Bold take, but while I feel like there's enough justifiable reasons to want to pick one over the other in regards to the electric rodents (the same way one would prefer to rock Falco over Fox in Melee), Marth just kinda seems like a character arbitrarily held back by a liability now. It's kind of funny given how he's still technically really good but there's not that much of a reason to actually pick him unless you're an ardent main. It says a lot to me that MKLeo completely dropped him in favor of Lucina when Marth was his best character in Smash 4, I expect he'll retain a solid player base but I wonder whether we'll get to a point where people who stick by him do so out of misplaced loyalty.

It's more that Marth is in a similar boat as Smash 4 Doc, than Pika; he's overlooked thanks to market preferences/fashions as much as his actual deficiencies.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Can someone explain to me what exactly makes Greninja good? I've seen a ton of people ITT say things like "how can you say [character A] is good and not mention Greninja" and "Greninja is underrated for sure", but rarely see anyone actually discuss his strengths or results. What gives?

While results are important we have to also look at the tools of the characters and the players piloting them. Greninja isn't a popular character and doesn't have much representation. So he'll pretty much always be lacking in the results department. His tools are top notch though. When I think of Greninja I can't find too many faults with the character. I suspect the biggest think gatekeeping him is he's pretty difficult to pick up and his frame data is pretty suspect on his fair. If he had that cut in half he'd probably be the best character in the game.

 

[Rizen]

Are you sure about that? Check the tournament listings sheet on that second link, lists tons of locals with even less participants. If anything, I’m even more skeptical of that second list because it doesn’t appear to weight the results by the level of competition as much as the first (although I won’t go as far as calling locals in Texas penguins, heh)

I tried crtl f, 'Ultimate Shockwave' on that too and didn't find any results.

 

[Guido65]

Spoiler: Genesi6 top 64

https://smash.gg/tournament/genesis-6/events/smash-for-switch-singles/standings
Genesi6 (Oakland, CA) (2,105 entrants)


1 MKLeo
2 Void
3 Samsora
4 Dabuz
5 light
5 Zackray
7 Cosmos
7 Esam
9 yeti
9 Myran
9 CaptainZack
9 Tweek
13 Salem
13 Prodigy
13 Shuton
13 MVD
17 Larry Lurr
17 Dark Wizzy
17 sdx
17 Nairo
17 Leffen
17 8BitMan
17 Glutonny
17 K9sbruce
25 Marss
25 Abadango
25 FOW
25 Sinji
25 Wadi
25 Ally
25 sonix
25 Magister
33 Lima
33 ZD
33 Lui$
33 Regi
33 Help! Stroder
33 Big D
33 Zenyou
33 Mr E
33 Shaky
33 BestNess
33 Klaatu
33 ImHip
33 Umeki
33 Captain L
33 Nakat
33 Kobe
49 Rain
49 Sparg0
49 Legit
49 La Luna
49 Plup
49 Eldin
49 TLTC
49 MuteAce
49 Eon
49 Nietono
49 Z
49 Pandarian
49 Btlc EZ
49 Shogun
49 EMG False
49 Seagull Joe

There are a lot of solo mains. Playing a pair of characters can help but isn't necessary, especially if you main a top tier.

Another thing to note is the saturation of certain characters. There are tons of Pichus, Wolfs, Princesses, Foxes, Nesses (what's the plural on Ness, lol?), Olimars, Snakes, and less-so Palutenas, ROBs and Lucinas. Heck I even see several Marios. This is one tournament but also part of a bigger pattern. There are characters who pop up once in top 8s like Young Link and characters who fill them like Wolf and Peach/Daisy. We're starting to get a clear picture of who the top tiers are, as opposed to high tiers.

Magister only went incineroar no villager.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

While results are important we have to also look at the tools of the characters and the players piloting them. Greninja isn't a popular character and doesn't have much representation. So he'll pretty much always be lacking in the results department. His tools are top notch though. When I think of Greninja I can't find too many faults with the character. I suspect the biggest think gatekeeping him is he's pretty difficult to pick up and his frame data is pretty suspect on his fair. If he had that cut in half he'd probably be the best character in the game.

His OOS options are pretty bad, too.

 

[MG_3989]

Ok so far here is my opinions

Top-Tiers, may have a few flaws and somewhat difficult MU's but there strengths more than make up for them. Can be potentially more sucessful as solo mains than the rest of the cast.

/

High tiers. Still very strong, but their weakness are more apparent and exploitable, namely by many top-tiers. Leading to more bad MU's and may need to use another character to cover them to get say..top 8 placings in major tournaments like G6


I was thinking maybe Wario, Inkling and Lucina high instead of top, but i think they hsvd been proven to be stronger than the rest. They could drop depending om how the meta shapes.

As for characters with "potential" to be high tier. The following come to mind for me . But they do not quite have the represnation or results to be considered that good yet

I think this is the best list I’ve seen so far. I might put Greninja in high tier due to his Japanese results though and I don’t know if Ike is top tier or MkLeo is just that good. I think every character you did list as top and high tier thus far are without argument top and high tier based of results and what we know about the game so far

I might put in high, he definitely was there pre-nerf. I guess we’ll have to see how he preforms post-nerf

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

I think this is the best list I’ve seen so far. I might put Greninja in high tier due to his Japanese results though and I don’t know if Ike is top tier or MkLeo is just that good. I think every character you did list as top and high tier thus far are without argument top and high tier based of results and what we know about the game so far

I might put in high, he definitely was there pre-nerf. I guess we’ll have to see how he preforms post-nerf

Yeah, I think Mega Man should be on there somewhere, and Roy and Chrom should be in the potential list or maybe not at all. They haven't really had strong results in a while relative to the people in the "high" and "potential" tiers. I don't even think there was a Chrom or Roy in top 64 in Genesis.

Also, fwiw, given how much Leo plays sword characters, he doesn't seem to think too highly of them relative to their peers.

So which amongst these characters have the most even or better matchups with the rest? Which characters on this list have an oppressive matchup with others, even if they don't have good matchups all around? Probably don't know yet but I think these will be interesting questions that will add a little fidelity to these lists

 

[Lore]

Compared to other characters like Bowser, I suspect Roy and Chrom had plenty of players representing them. They may, sadly, be victims of people learning the matchup. My quick glance at Genesis results seems to support your statement, fozzy, that they weren't in top 64.

Mega Man was definitely High pre-nerf, but I'm not sure how he is now.

 

[MG_3989]

I’m not convinced as the meta develops there will truly be any top tiers who can solo main. There are just so many characters and matchups in this game and mid tiers that can give top and high tiers trouble. I don’t know if it’ll completely be a match up game but I’m still not convinced anyone will be able to solo main

 

[Lore]

To be fair, that's true for nearly all Smash titles. Plenty of pros main multiple characters over time. I think it's more common now because it's too early for players to "settle in" with a character, along with no character being obviously dominant.

 

[Rizen]

and mid tiers that can give top and high tiers trouble.

Such as?

 

[MG_3989]

To be fair, that's true for nearly all Smash titles. Plenty of pros main multiple characters over time. I think it's more common now because it's too early for players to "settle in" with a character, along with no character being obviously dominant.

I didn’t play Smash 4 but up until Brawl it was perfectly viable to solo main and most players did it. They may have had pocket picks but the Spacies, or IC’s, or Jiggs players in Melee don’t usually have secondaries (there are exceptions obviously). People who played Meta Knight, or Diddy, or IC’s, or Snake in Brawl usually solo mained. If it changed drastically it changed with 4

Such as?

I think the Belmont’s can give some high tiers trouble as one example. I think a lot of the heavies have their niche matchups against high and top tiers. Not overwhelmingly bad matchups but not good matchups either. Mario gives Ike trouble (Mario may be high tier though)

 

[Idon]

Such as?

And for that matter, who even can say for certain who is mid-tier?

 

[SwagGuy99]

even if fall in the metagame (already a little) i dont think he will low tier he has too much to fall that low

on the side note who do you think is the worst character? (for me its )

My bottom 2 characters are and .

has no air game, a poor recovery, but has a very good ground game. However, a lot of characters can keep him in the air forever and he won't ever be able to do anything about it. However, even though he's bad, he does have strengths.

has wack hitboxes, feels awkward to play, has poor frame data, and is pretty average to mediocre everywhere else. She has nothing extremely broken except Deep Breathing which she isn't always able to get due to it's high lag. She's just too awkward and clunky to be a good character although again, like with Mac, I still don't think that she is total garbage.

Also, is actually pretty bad too. Despite his early over-hype, I was never really convinced that he would be any better than low high tier. And I was one of the few people with this opinion. Now that the game has been out for a while, It's pretty clear that he sucks. He gets comboed so easily (think ) and his projectiles are just too situational to be useful in a lot of situations. Not to mention his frame data is absolute trash (similar to and among others). He doesn't really have the tools necessary to win most matchups and even a lot of characters that are currently considered bad like or seem to outperform him.

 

[J0eyboi]

I'd argue that solo maining is no less viable than it was in Melee (and Brawl depending on how you count it).

First of all, better balance makes more characters solo viable, not less. The overall reduction in +3's and similarly bad matchups means there are more characters who can potentially be played solo, and the more diverse character usage is, the less likely you are to run into a bad matchup. For example, if you're playing Pika in Melee, it's extremely likely that you run into ICs, Puff, or Peach somewhere in bracket, especially with Hbox running around. In Ultimate, even if you have matchups as bad as those, you're less likely to see them because they make up a lower percentage of the playerbase.

Increasing the number of viable characters also increases the number of matchups you need to learn, but this doesn't actually incentivize secondaries; secondaries are extra characters you have to learn, and the low number of awful matchups means that the time investment for learning a secondary may be higher than the time saved on learning the matchups you want that secondary for. This isn't true for all characters, but is generally accurate for most.

Top players don't play more than 1 character because it's necessary, they do it because it's useful. New characters can help you to mix up your playstyle and break through personal barriers to improvement. Additionally, switching to different characters, whether or not they're better in the matchup, can trip up opponents who are used to fighting another character of yours (this is also a huge part of why PT is good). Top players have secondaries because they help player matchups, not because they're necessary to deal with character matchups; Leo's multiple solo Ike runs, Samsora's multiple solo Peach runs, and Zackray's multiple solo Wolf runs should prove that's not an issue.

 

[MG_3989]

I'd argue that solo maining is no less viable than it was in Melee (and Brawl depending on how you count it).

First of all, better balance makes more characters solo viable, not less. The overall reduction in +3's and similarly bad matchups means there are more characters who can potentially be played solo, and the more diverse character usage is, the less likely you are to run into a bad matchup. For example, if you're playing Pika in Melee, it's extremely likely that you run into ICs, Puff, or Peach somewhere in bracket, especially with Hbox running around. In Ultimate, even if you have matchups as bad as those, you're less likely to see them because they make up a lower percentage of the playerbase.

Increasing the number of viable characters also increases the number of matchups you need to learn, but this doesn't actually incentivize secondaries; secondaries are extra characters you have to learn, and the low number of awful matchups means that the time investment for learning a secondary may be higher than the time saved on learning the matchups you want that secondary for. This isn't true for all characters, but is generally accurate for most.

Top players don't play more than 1 character because it's necessary, they do it because it's useful. New characters can help you to mix up your playstyle and break through personal barriers to improvement. Additionally, switching to different characters, whether or not they're better in the matchup, can trip up opponents who are used to fighting another character of yours (this is also a huge part of why PT is good). Top players have secondaries because they help player matchups, not because they're necessary to deal with character matchups; Leo's multiple solo Ike runs, Samsora's multiple solo Peach runs, and Zackray's multiple solo Wolf runs should prove that's not an issue.

I guess I wasn’t looking at it particularly in that way and I think you may be right. I haven’t found any matchup I NEED a secondary for, everything is at least winnable so far. Like you said diversifying your roster only makes you scarier and more unpredictable and if you are going to solo main you definitely have to adapt to people adapting to you but thus far it’s doable

 

[Ziodyne 21]

And for that matter, who even can say for certain who is mid-tier?

Well not to say that I am absolutley right. But I say characters that have some notable and actullay impressive strengths, but also just as many notable weakness or flaws that you cannorlt ignore may end up "mid tier"n
Some examples I can say are and / (yes I belive they are mid as least) are some examoles for diffrent reasons. Possibly 2.00 can rise to mid-tier under this criteria depending on how his buffs affect him in the long run

I think can ride to high-mid despite also having the typical weakness of being super-heavyweights in Smash

 

[NairWizard]

Ultimately words like "top tier" and "mid tier" don't matter when it comes to these supermajors. What top players prepare for in bracket is what others around them are playing. For MKLeo, it won't matter if Ike has a bad matchup against DK, for example, unless another top player plays DK. MKLeo has to worry about Inkling, Olimar, Palutena, Pichu, and Wolf, but not DK or Mewtwo or Ganondorf, because other top players aren't playing those characters seriously. If he runs into one of those characters in bracket, the skill gap between him and the other player will be more important than the matchup anyway.

Solo maining is perfectly viable as long as your solo main covers what all of the other players of your skill level are playing.

 

[L9999]

I think the Belmont’s can give some high tiers trouble as one example. I think a lot of the heavies have their niche matchups against high and top tiers. Not overwhelmingly bad matchups but not good matchups either. Mario gives Ike trouble (Mario may be high tier though)[/QUOTE]
Which MUs do Belmonts win tho? rip them to shreds, aren't very pretty either.

And for that matter, who even can say for certain who is mid-tier?

Yes, mid tiers are characters who are not good enough to be meta defining but are not bad enough to be considered low tier. With this kind of roster low tier characters are those who do nothing. Sure, someone like isn't up there but he has some good tools and wins to go by, as opposed to someone like who is clearly lacking and has done absolutely nothing. Being honest tiers don't matter, they are just snapshots of who is meta relevant and who is not. Mid tier has become the favorite phrase of low tier mains who don't want to admit their character sucks, "he is decently mid tier."

 

[Scarlet Spyder]

has to at least make any list but the tip-top. He is bringing in an abundance of results.
I think is also being overlooked. If we accept that tier lists have any degree of a theoretical component, then surely we expect PT (with their large barrier to entry) to underperform in early tourneys, particularly given the player base. These results for PT were encouraging, not bad news.
While we're at it, . Pika's popularity and resutls are being artificially surpressed by Pichu being more novel, new, and exciting. Pichu could also be better, but you can't deny that these are factors warping Pikachu's representation.
is in a different but similar boat.
massively underperformed his initial hype. For a "top character", he is nowhere.
Speaking of, where's ???
Too soon to call a ghost. If Elegant had a good night instead of a bad one, we'd all be singing a different song. Needs more samples.

Also, bashing for having a poor air game is a really low-brow opinion beneath the standards of this thread. Mac's well-documented and well-discussed deficiencies revolve around platform height, poor disadvantage by virtue of narrow recovery options, and lack of equivalent reward on hit. It would be a trivial exercise to make Mac a top 10 character with as few as 3 small changes.

I agree that is being overlooked after this tournament. Leffen has shown that he can be very good at this game but there simply is much more match-ups to to learn and master between the three characters. Leaning on Ivysaur seems to have cost him. Ivysaur couldn't outrange Ike's sword nor could he out-shoot Megaman's pellets/ leaf shield. Although objectively Ivysaur is probably the best standalone character, Pokemon Trainer mains need to recognize the bad match-ups and adjust accordingly.

Here's a strategy that I've been trying to use against zoners and swordies.
Squirtle is the best at getting "in" on zoners and even against swordies can manage to get a combo off. Instead of switching to Ivy at the usual 50-70%, I keep Squirtle in and lay on the damage (to about 100%).
Ivysaur will make a brief appearance to try to net a Razor Leaf/ Dthrow to Vine Whip combo. If it works, great. If not, I don't hesitate to switch again.
Charizard does pretty well against sword characters. He can stay in shield all damn day and simply Usmash out of shield to punish approaching aerials. His ability to throw opponents off the stage helps with his good edgeguarding options as well. Against zoners, he does better than Ivysaur because of the three jumps. Also, you can blast through weaker projectiles with Flare Blitz and score some surprise KOs that way as well.

Although Leffen may be leaving the character, I find the fact that there's always more to learn about this character and match-ups a challenge that I will gladly take on. Pokemon Trainer is the most dynamic character in the entire cast and in my opinion, has the most potential. The lack of results this early in the game aren't too surprising but I don't think we've seen the last of them; hopefully, the opposite is true.

 

[Nate1080]

Just curious, when did people start considering Belmonts mid tier? Last I checked, the consensus was high tier.

Not that I disagree, tbh I figured that out on my own week 3 after playing them online almost exclusively since launch.

 

[missingnomaster]

Such as?

Doesn't Game & Watch have an extremely good matchup against Snake? With how Bucket absorbs so many of Snake's tools.

 

[MG_3989]

I think the Belmont’s can give some high tiers trouble as one example. I think a lot of the heavies have their niche matchups against high and top tiers. Not overwhelmingly bad matchups but not good matchups either. Mario gives Ike trouble (Mario may be high tier though)

Ok now that I look at it I don’t think they win any top or high tier matchups definitively and they were probably a bad example. I guess the main mid tiers who will give some top or high tiers trouble are pocket heavies (DK and Bowser can definitely give swordies trouble)

G&W can also annoy Ness with the bucket but as long as you keep the PK Fires and Thunders to a minimum and unpredictable it’s a pretty easy matchup. I’d assume it’d be similar with Snake if he stays unpredictable but he does rely on his projectiles a lot more than Ness does. Lucas is a mid tier who gives Snake a hard time. PSI Magnet has much more utility against Snake than the bucket

 

[Scarlet Spyder]

Just curious, when did people start considering Belmonts mid tier? Last I checked, the consensus was high tier.

Not that I disagree, tbh I figured that out on my own week 3 after playing them online almost exclusively since launch.

Probably when they figured out that their terrible recovery can be abused by most characters with a decent edgeguarding kit. Most other high/top tiers are just able to play around their game and losing a stock early in this game can be a death sentence.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Probably when they figured out that their terrible recovery can be abused by most characters with a decent edgeguarding kit. Most other high/top tiers are just able to play around their game and losing a stock early in this game can be a death sentence.

While losing a stock early is bad, it's a whole lot more forgiving than smash 4 where you had only 2 stocks.
Seriously, who's bright idea was it to do that?