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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Spinosaurus

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Charizard just feels awful this game, ground movement is all he's got but all his buttons are really committal or just not worth going for, he has to play super passive until he manages to get you cornered, and even then I find myself preferring Ivysaur there.

All three PT Pokemon are definitely exceedingly simple (and as mentioned, Ivy's just braindead) and I feel like that's going to be their downfall eventually unless switching's iframes end up being that big of a boon. I'm not as optimistic about them as most people seem to be.
 
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Thinkaman

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Speaking as someone who is a PT "main" (played them more than anyone else, so far), I'm pretty happy with all 3 of them. Squirtle's numbers feel bad (the Sheik comparison is sort of apt) and Squirtle is the clear "loser" if you had to play just one, but that's a dumb theoretical question to debate. But man, Sheik is just way better when attached to people who can kill or at least zone. Also Water Gun is Charizard's best move in the same way that Charizard's second double jump is Ivysaur's best move.

Ivysaur is only in the spotlight because she controls neutral in so many matchups. She's a good but flawed character who would struggle to make mid-tier solo.

Charizard is the real hero, listen to Shaya. I consistently spend the least amount of time as Charizard, but if you had to take away one Pokemon (dumb theoretical question alert!), Charizard would be the worst choice.

Still going to insist that resetting opponent patterns is nontrivially powerful, nevermind the extra air dodges.

I think switching to Charizard is actually a valid tactic for getting out of disadvantage. Yeah he also lacks good landing tools but he does have a triple jump for mix up, a slightly better fall and air speed and won't be punished for hitting a landing nair. In fact I'd argue that Charizard is actually better at landing then Solo-Ivy which says a lot. Then there's off course the fact that Pokemon Switch basically cheats Ultimate's air dodge system which is a major saving grace for Ivy and Zard alike.
Ivysaur is only ~10% slower horizontally and slightly floatier, but ~50% higher acceleration and far smaller while offering more disjointed threat. It's situational which one is better equipped to get out of disadvantage.

The real answer is Squirtle, who has Pichu-tier evasion stats in all categories except fall speed. For what it's worth, tthe "one change" I'd make to PT would be restoring Squirtle's Link-style unusually-fast fastfall from Brawl.
 
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MG_3989

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So Ness is still dominating locals and regionals (I know this has a lot to do with Awestin, FOW, Bestness, and Shaky being the best players in their region, but it still says something). I’m still very optimistic about him. I’d love for either Bestness or FOW to pull out a top 8 at Genesis to show that Ness isn’t an imposter this game like he has been in the past. I wish Awestin (I honestly believe he’s the best, most versatile and most creative Ness player in Ultimate right now and he doesn’t get tilted and has no problem going up against and beating top ranked players) would travel because I think he would do quite well in Majors too. I might be overly optimistic but Ness hasn’t disappointed me at all this far in Ultimate (yeah I know what happened in Smash 4 but I wasn’t around for it) and I think a Major top 8 is exactly what the character needs. FOW and Bestness are possible of pulling that off. I know a lot of people are hesitant to put Ness in high tier but I think some good Major results would change that because we all know how good his tool kit is and how potentially dangerous he can be
 
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meleebrawler

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Charizard just feels awful this game, ground movement is all he's got but all his buttons are really committal or just not worth going for, he has to play super passive until he manages to get you cornered, and even then I find myself preferring Ivysaur there.

All three PT Pokemon are definitely exceedingly simple (and as mentioned, Ivy's just braindead) and I feel like that's going to be their downfall eventually unless switching's iframes end up being that big of a boon. I'm not as optimistic about them as most people seem to be.
That's the thing though, you don't have to use Charizard to get his opponents in positions he wants them to be. You can just use Squirtle's Water Gun or do what Ivy does to accomplish that instead, then go to town with Zard until he loses the upper hand and you switch back again if he really doesn't handle the matchup well.
 

Emblem Lord

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It just pisses me off that Ivy can press up b and not enter special fall.

A glaring oversight imo.

Somebody was sleep.
 

ZephyrZ

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It just pisses me off that Ivy can press up b and not enter special fall.

A glaring oversight imo.

Somebody was sleep.
You're angry that one of the least consistent recovery moves in the game isn't even worse?

Ivysaur is already vulnerable even when Vine Whip does snap to the ledge. In fact most of the situations where I've been successfully edgegaurded as Ivysaur have been when the move did hit the ledge like it was supposed to, where my opponent used a large or lingering hitbox to get a free hit as Ivy pulled herself up. If they toned down the kill power or something I'd live but nerfing its effectiveness as a recovery move would be overkill. There's already a lot of situations where trying to Vine Whip offstage just isn't worth it.

I believe it would also be the only tether recovery to put the user into special fall if that were the case which would kind of suck.
 

Swaggy-G

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Kinda off topic, but why is everyone referring to Ivysaur as "her"? I thought Puff and Pikachu were the only pokemon with definitive genders. It feels recent too, I don't recall people calling Ivy female before.
 

MG_3989

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Kinda off topic, but why is everyone referring to Ivysaur as "her"? I thought Puff and Pikachu were the only pokemon with definitive genders. It feels recent too, I don't recall people calling Ivy female before.
I’ve heard Ivy as her before too. I didn’t think any of the Pokémon had definitive genders including Pikachu and Puff. I think it’s whatever you prefer
 
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Swaggy-G

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I’ve heard Ivy as her before too. I didn’t think any of the Pokémon had definitive genders including Pikachu and Puff. I think it’s whatever you prefer
Oh, I certainly don't mind, I'm just surprised by how common it seemed to become all of a sudden.
 

MG_3989

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Oh, I certainly don't mind, I'm just surprised by how common it seemed to become all of a sudden.
I think it’s because people just refer to grass Pokémon as her a lot of the time and in the anime they grass trainers and Pokémon were usually girls
 

Y2Kay

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Iirc Ivysaur being female is just a head canon that’s been widely adopted by the smash community.

:150:
 

J0eyboi

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Did you know that Pikachu-Libre has a kill confirm with Uthrow-Thunder? You can tell based on the heart-shaped tail!

Anyway, a character I see falling off is Palu. She currently gets away with a lot more stuff than she really should. Eventually, people should start calling out her jumps more, which will make her lack of ground moves really hurt. Also stop getting hit by EF in neutral pls
 
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kimohno

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So Ness is still dominating locals and regionals (I know this has a lot to do with Awestin, FOW, Bestness, and Shaky being the best players in their region, but it still says something). I’m still very optimistic about him.
Dude there are 74 characters, is Ness the only thing you can talk about all day? Jesus :D
 

MG_3989

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Dude there are 74 characters, is Ness the only thing you can talk about all day? Jesus :D
I talk about other characters lol

I’m just most interested in Ness and I know the most about him so I feel most comfortable talking about him. A lot of times I’ll hold back my opinions on other characters because I’m still learning more about them and don’t wanna come off as dumb. I’m definitely interested in a lot of other characters though
 
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AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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It doesn’t make sense to me either. None of the three are particularly difficult characters to learn. The skill cap to learning PKT as opposed to Peach or Greninja isn’t even comparable


I’m sure Leffen could move to the US if he wanted to and it would probably help his career. I mean he’s sponsored and all they could get him a Visa easy. He does have a life and a girlfriend in Sweden though and he does really well streaming so maybe he just likes living there and doesn’t really have enough motivation to make the move. Armada’s never done it either. I don’t think winning more Smash tournaments is lucrative enough to go through moving countries for. Especially if you’re already happy with where you live. It’s not like you’re making OW, LoL, etc... type money. That said if a player like Leffen did decide to move to a stacked Ultimate region in the US I think he would do very very well

The dude adapted to Melee fast, DBZ Fighter even faster, and even though some people like to deny it, some people do have natural talent and Leffen may have as much raw talent as anyone. I just don’t think we’ll ever get to see him pushed to his limits in Ultimate though which is a shame

If it's his passion and something he wants to do then he'll move. His job revolves around playing video games and streaming. He can still bring in the same amount of income as he does now. The biggest difference being he'll be able to play with the players he wishes to in a regular basis. This isn't something new or something never done before so why offer johns for him?

Also unless this patch shakes something up I do believe we're not going to see much changes to the perceived best characters. As it stands I don't see any character sneaking up and rising up. So it'll be interesting to see what directions these patches take the game.
 

ZephyrZ

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If it's his passion and something he wants to do then he'll move. His job revolves around playing video games and streaming. He can still bring in the same amount of income as he does now. The biggest difference being he'll be able to play with the players he wishes to in a regular basis. This isn't something new or something never done before so why offer johns for him?
While I don't think this is really the place to be discussing Leffen drama, moving to an entirely different continent is still not some small, trivial thing to expect from someone. It's way easier for some random guy on the internet to say what someone else should do with their life when it's not their own life that decision would be changing.
 
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Nekoo

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While I don't think this is really the place to be discussing Leffen drama, moving to an entirely different continent is still not some small, trivial thing to expect from someone. It's way easier for some random guy on the internet to say what someone else should do with their life when it's not their own life that decision would be changing.
And to close the subject. Traveling from Europe to USA. Or even through county inside of Europe is MUCH More difficult and demanding than people moving through states in the US.
 

Frihetsanka

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And to close the subject. Traveling from Europe to USA. Or even through county inside of Europe is MUCH More difficult and demanding than people moving through states in the US.
To add to this: Given what I've heard about US Internet, he might actually be worse off training-wise unless he moves to some location where he can practice offline with top players (like to the LOFT or something). Swedish Internet tends to do very well on global Internet ranking lists. And besides, he's already a top Melee player so it doesn't seem like he has to move in order to continue being a top Melee player. I doubt he's going to take Ultimate serious in the long run.

Regarding Pokémon Trainer, not only do you have to be able to play three characters well, you'll also have to be proficient in switching on the spot and adapting to very different playstyles. Leffen seems to think the character is more work than its worth, and not many top players seem that interested in Pokémon Trainer. The character may very well be a solid high tier but the effort seems much more compared to others, so it might be better to just pick some other main plus a secondary instead of Pokémon Trainer. Individually, the Pokémon seem like low/mid tiers in general (maybe Ivysaur is high tier), so you really have to get good with all three in order to make the character high/top tier. While that's fun for spectators to see, it's taxing for players.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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While I don't think this is really the place to be discussing Leffen drama, moving to an entirely different continent is still not some small, trivial thing to expect from someone. It's way easier for some random guy on the internet to say what someone else should do with their life when it's not their own life that decision would be changing.
It's not my decision and I am just a random guy on the Internet but people do move to different countries for work. Basically all I'm saying is chase after what you're passionate about. Everything else is just johns.
 

ARISTOS

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It's not my decision and I am just a random guy on the Internet but people do move to different countries for work. Basically all I'm saying is chase after what you're passionate about. Everything else is just johns.
Yeah, and it's usually a harrowing decision made after a lot of contemplation, for when there are either very few options or the opportunity is so high to stay would be impossible.

Moving countries to play Smash, a game that pales monetarily to other e-sports which pales monetarily to normal professions in general is foolhardy.

This is one of the worst takes I've seen in a while.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Yeah, and it's usually a harrowing decision made after a lot of contemplation, for when there are either very few options or the opportunity is so high to stay would be impossible.

Moving countries to play Smash, a game that pales monetarily to other e-sports which pales monetarily to normal professions in general is foolhardy.

This is one of the worst takes I've seen in a while.
Zero makes 45K a month I believe right? Do you know who ls is?
 
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Envoy of Chaos

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Zero makes 45K a month I believe right? Do you know who ls is?
Zero makes his money off streaming not tournaments. Tournament payouts for Smash not only are widely inconsistent but are also far lower when compared to other Esports. The difference from 1st to 5th is substantial and only the 1% of the top 1% of players can actually consistently place well enough to sustain off tournament income alone. If you notice even the most consistent and best Smash players often live with many roommates because smash by itself is not financially sustainable at all. Making money as a smasher is a secondary source of income you need a primary source which in many top players case is being streamers and content creators. The money they make off tournaments and sponsorship deals doesn't cut it without assistance.
 

Fastblade5035

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Okay, I procrastinated my thoughts for a while and with the patch coming soon that's a good motivator to get off my ass and type this out

I think my thoughts on the Links have changed. Last I posted, I was of the mindset that Link was still a very troubled, mid-tier at best kind of character, carried by extensive hype pushing his meta. I also thought Toon Link was slightly better than Young Link, but that both were probably about high tier kind of characters.

Since then, I picked up Link again. With the initial unfamiliarity of Ult's engine gone, all my muscle memory with Link came back so I had way more fun with him and got to re-evaluate my thoughts on him. Salem's Link run also made a big impression.
I still think Link is very much pushed by hype, but the results can't be ignored. Link certainly has the potential to be deadly, which had me confused for a while. In the past, yeah, Link has no problem killing. It's the not getting killed part that's hard. Ultimate Link feels, for lack of a better term, contradictory to how Link functioned in the past. For example, in 4, I would very scarcely use ftilt. Up smash wasn't something I wanted to just throw out despite it's kill power and range. But now, it's pretty viable to just use ftilt over and over on shield's on ledge or to space for kills. Nair kills now? Dair feels like Cloud's Smash 4 dair - the thing even bounces off of Snake's up smash missile, like, what? My adapting to Link aside, Salem made a very good case for Link, for now at least.

Swords in this engine are just really good, and Link is no exception - he can rack up big damage hits pretty easily and has enough fast moves like nair, bair, jab, OOS spin attack, to keep up with faster opponents even if they aren't perfect options, they do help mend his weak spots against them.
I'm not sure where I stand on Link overall now, past just 'better'. But who knows, this will almost certainly be somewhat outdated very soon so lol.

As far as TL and YL the only thing I think differently about them now is Link being much closer to them than I thought, so while he may still be the weakest Link (heh) I'm not gonna commit to that, just my thoughts right now

idk why i even did this cause once plant comes out im going plant gang forever
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Okay, I procrastinated my thoughts for a while and with the patch coming soon that's a good motivator to get off my *** and type this out

I think my thoughts on the Links have changed. Last I posted, I was of the mindset that Link was still a very troubled, mid-tier at best kind of character, carried by extensive hype pushing his meta. I also thought Toon Link was slightly better than Young Link, but that both were probably about high tier kind of characters.

Since then, I picked up Link again. With the initial unfamiliarity of Ult's engine gone, all my muscle memory with Link came back so I had way more fun with him and got to re-evaluate my thoughts on him. Salem's Link run also made a big impression.
I still think Link is very much pushed by hype, but the results can't be ignored. Link certainly has the potential to be deadly, which had me confused for a while. In the past, yeah, Link has no problem killing. It's the not getting killed part that's hard. Ultimate Link feels, for lack of a better term, contradictory to how Link functioned in the past. For example, in 4, I would very scarcely use ftilt. Up smash wasn't something I wanted to just throw out despite it's kill power and range. But now, it's pretty viable to just use ftilt over and over on shield's on ledge or to space for kills. Nair kills now? Dair feels like Cloud's Smash 4 dair - the thing even bounces off of Snake's up smash missile, like, what? My adapting to Link aside, Salem made a very good case for Link, for now at least.

Swords in this engine are just really good, and Link is no exception - he can rack up big damage hits pretty easily and has enough fast moves like nair, bair, jab, OOS spin attack, to keep up with faster opponents even if they aren't perfect options, they do help mend his weak spots against them.
I'm not sure where I stand on Link overall now, past just 'better'. But who knows, this will almost certainly be somewhat outdated very soon so lol.

As far as TL and YL the only thing I think differently about them now is Link being much closer to them than I thought, so while he may still be the weakest Link (heh) I'm not gonna commit to that, just my thoughts right now

idk why i even did this cause once plant comes out im going plant gang forever
I feel as though the Links are pretty different. Despite the overlap in moved there's reason to play one Link over the other. I found that to be pretty nice. Also I think Toon Link is the weakest of the links. With Ylink being the top link being high and Tink being mid.

I'm not going to address the other stuff we were talking about but it's getting to the point to where I'm just going to flame you guys.
 

SwagGuy99

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Charizard just feels awful this game, ground movement is all he's got but all his buttons are really committal or just not worth going for, he has to play super passive until he manages to get you cornered, and even then I find myself preferring Ivysaur there.

All three PT Pokemon are definitely exceedingly simple (and as mentioned, Ivy's just braindead) and I feel like that's going to be their downfall eventually unless switching's iframes end up being that big of a boon. I'm not as optimistic about them as most people seem to be.
I don't know. They all have weaknesses but even Charizard has some good things about him that make him worth using. He's the fastest of the three on the ground, has the best recovery, and has good edgeguarding. His tilts and smash attacks are usable as well. Though I do understand where you're coming from with what you're saying as his aerials all have a lot of landing lag, have weird hitboxes, and don't function nearly as well onstage as they did in Smash 4.
 

Fatmanonice

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I feel like all three Pokemon have their purposes and kind of play out how they're supposed to. Squirtle is rushdown, Ivy is midrange zoning, and Charizard is supposed to be the one getting most of the kills. The concept is at least a whole lot more balanced than it was in Brawl anyways. It makes sense that Ivy's the best of the three, Squirtle struggles to kill, etc.
 

SwagGuy99

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I have some thoughts and opinions on some characters specifically that I want to mention

:ultbowser: Bowser is actually decent. He feels extremely fast and he hits like a truck. He's probably the second best super-heavyweight in the game.

:ultbowserjr: Bowser Jr. feels less clunky than the other low tiers, and I think he may not be dead last anymore after playing him a bit. He's got some stuff going for him (even if a lot of it is negated by his weaknesses) and I think that he may not be bottom 3 and even if he is still bottom 3, I can say with absolute certainty that there is at least 1 character worse than him.

:ultfalcon: Feels clunky. He feels like if Up-Air: the Character had his up-air removed and then got the rest of his moveset butchered even further. Despite his high speed, his movement still feels sluggish as well. Not to mention he's still combo food. He's most likely high mid tier at best.

:ultdk: The best super-heavywieght and may be a secret top tier pick. He feels really fast in all aspects and his unique moveset and attributes work very well against a lot of Ultimate's best characters. He still struggles with landing and against projectiles, but that's about it. With decent matchups against Marth, Lucina, Ike, Snake, Mewtwo, Luigi, and several other potential top tiers, He's going to be a big threat in Ultimate.

:ultdoc: Underrated. He deals damage quicker than any other character in the game (except maybe Ganondorf) and kills incredibly early too. His recovery is still mediocure but is much better in comparison to the rest of the cast than it was previously. I feel like he is about as goo as his Melee counterpart and is actually better than Mario.

:ultganondorf: Ganondorf is a weird character. He's slow in movement, but his frame data is better than every other super-heavyweight except DK. This makes Ganondorf really oppressive against close range characters like Mario or slow characters like King Dedede but this also makes it so he struggles in many other matchups. He's probably a mid tier, though if people push him as a character, he could be high mid tier.

:ultlink: Link is overrated. His changes to bomb are cool, but actually seem to nerf him because if an opponent picks it up, Link can't use it or explode it which is worse than Smash 4 bombs which would explode, forcing the opponent to choose an option which was always punishable . The removal of his tether was also a nerf as his recovery is back to being poor again, similarly to his Brawl and Smash 64 incarnations. He also suffers from the same issues he always had. He's probably a mid tier.

:ultluigi: Luigi is a top tier. His only weaknesses are his air speed and recovery, and he does have some mixups he can do do make his recovery a little better. He's essentially a better version of Sheik. While he lacks he movement speed, he actually deals damage, and is able to kill more effectively than her.

:ultmario: Mario has similar issues to Falcon and suffers from the same clunkyness. However, while Falcon struggles because all of his options were nerfed, Mario's best options were nerfed but his other things that wern't great, but were still good were reletivly untouched so he still has some things he can do, unlike Falcon. He's probably a low high tier but still a decent character overall.

:ultroy: Roy's the best sword character. If Chrom's recovery wasn't trash, Chrom would be the best sword character. Roy seems to be the best due to how much he benefits from the game's mechanics, along with his high speed and adaptability (although Chrom's adaptability is better than Chrom's).

:ultwiifittrainer: This is the character that I can safely say is worse than Bowser Jr.. She is one of those characters who feels really clunky like Mario and Falcon. Not to mention, nothing in her kit is truly notable, and she also has issues killing due to the high lag and poor hitbox placements on all of her attacks. She also struggles against projectile characters, rushdown characters, and sword character, which is a lot of the characters in Ultimate. With all of these things going against her, she is truly the worst character in Ultimate in my opinion.
 

Tri Knight

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I have some thoughts and opinions on some characters specifically that I want to mention

:ultbowser: Bowser is actually decent. He feels extremely fast and he hits like a truck. He's probably the second best super-heavyweight in the game.

:ultbowserjr: Bowser Jr. feels less clunky than the other low tiers, and I think he may not be dead last anymore after playing him a bit. He's got some stuff going for him (even if a lot of it is negated by his weaknesses) and I think that he may not be bottom 3 and even if he is still bottom 3, I can say with absolute certainty that there is at least 1 character worse than him.

:ultfalcon: Feels clunky. He feels like if Up-Air: the Character had his up-air removed and then got the rest of his moveset butchered even further. Despite his high speed, his movement still feels sluggish as well. Not to mention he's still combo food. He's most likely high mid tier at best.

:ultdk: The best super-heavywieght and may be a secret top tier pick. He feels really fast in all aspects and his unique moveset and attributes work very well against a lot of Ultimate's best characters. He still struggles with landing and against projectiles, but that's about it. With decent matchups against Marth, Lucina, Ike, Snake, Mewtwo, Luigi, and several other potential top tiers, He's going to be a big threat in Ultimate.

:ultdoc: Underrated. He deals damage quicker than any other character in the game (except maybe Ganondorf) and kills incredibly early too. His recovery is still mediocure but is much better in comparison to the rest of the cast than it was previously. I feel like he is about as goo as his Melee counterpart and is actually better than Mario.

:ultganondorf: Ganondorf is a weird character. He's slow in movement, but his frame data is better than every other super-heavyweight except DK. This makes Ganondorf really oppressive against close range characters like Mario or slow characters like King Dedede but this also makes it so he struggles in many other matchups. He's probably a mid tier, though if people push him as a character, he could be high mid tier.

:ultlink: Link is overrated. His changes to bomb are cool, but actually seem to nerf him because if an opponent picks it up, Link can't use it or explode it which is worse than Smash 4 bombs which would explode, forcing the opponent to choose an option which was always punishable . The removal of his tether was also a nerf as his recovery is back to being poor again, similarly to his Brawl and Smash 64 incarnations. He also suffers from the same issues he always had. He's probably a mid tier.

:ultluigi: Luigi is a top tier. His only weaknesses are his air speed and recovery, and he does have some mixups he can do do make his recovery a little better. He's essentially a better version of Sheik. While he lacks he movement speed, he actually deals damage, and is able to kill more effectively than her.

:ultmario: Mario has similar issues to Falcon and suffers from the same clunkyness. However, while Falcon struggles because all of his options were nerfed, Mario's best options were nerfed but his other things that wern't great, but were still good were reletivly untouched so he still has some things he can do, unlike Falcon. He's probably a low high tier but still a decent character overall.

:ultroy: Roy's the best sword character. If Chrom's recovery wasn't trash, Chrom would be the best sword character. Roy seems to be the best due to how much he benefits from the game's mechanics, along with his high speed and adaptability (although Chrom's adaptability is better than Chrom's).

:ultwiifittrainer: This is the character that I can safely say is worse than Bowser Jr.. She is one of those characters who feels really clunky like Mario and Falcon. Not to mention, nothing in her kit is truly notable, and she also has issues killing due to the high lag and poor hitbox placements on all of her attacks. She also struggles against projectile characters, rushdown characters, and sword character, which is a lot of the characters in Ultimate. With all of these things going against her, she is truly the worst character in Ultimate in my opinion.
On the subject of Link and opponents holding his bomb. That's actually a good thing. People can't capitalize on the bombs much at all. Throwing it at Link only does 1% and the opponent cant realistically make it explode whereas catching normal bombs would help them more as they do more damage and have combo potential. The bombs also serve as fantastic shield pressure and his easily one of the best edgeguarding tools in the game and can actually KILL. I watched a game where someone caught Salem's bomb in neutral and Salem went full aggro on them to get the upperhand because he knew the opponent couldn't do much of anything with the bomb in hand (and remember holding something locks out buttons until you drop it). I think his bombs are great, I like them a lot more than I did initially. I feel they really went for Adult Link just having a ton of kill options.

He lost tether but what he got in return is a fast OoS option (one of the fastest in the game, in fact) which was undoubtedly one of his biggest weaknesses in Smash4. People are underrating his recovery imo.
 
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Fatmanonice

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SwagGuy99 SwagGuy99 Wii Fit is definitely not the worst and she's a character that's slept on. Deep Breathing itself is crazy good now because it increases her run speed, fall speed, damage output, and knock back, somehow putting Smash 4 Cloud's Limit to shame. It charges a lot faster too so using it multiple times a stock is not unusual. Utilt is now a reliable juggle tool and antiair. Header hits harder and the ball now has a lasting hitbox as it bounces around. Sun salutation and ftilt are still great and can reliably kill most of the cast at roughly 100% with Deep Breathing. Uthrow is now a set up throw and dthrow more reliably leads to tech chases on platforms. Her damage output now matches her combo ability, with double nairs/nair into uair being true combos on most of the cast now up til high percentages. Jab combo now buries more consistently which is fantastic given the huge buff buries were given. The only thing about her that's worse is her recovery but, given she's one of the few characters that still has air stalls along with the new directional air dodge mechanics, it's not a huge detriment. She's a solid midtier at worst.
 

Untouch

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The only huge thing wrong with WFT is the fact that she doesn't really have a good way to get in during neutral. The only safe-on-shield aerial is nair (this is less to do with her frame data and more her air speed). If her air speed was buffed a lot, I think she would be high tier. She has amazing combo potential and reliable kill setups, along with amazing edgeguarding. Fair isn't a bad move (it is amazing for combo setups and edgeguarding) but the weird hitbox makes it unreliable for approaching.

Bowser Jr has the same problems, but also is awful offstage, doesn't have combos, and cannot kill.
 

Fatmanonice

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Bowser Jr would actually be amazing... If this were Smash 4. Like Falcon, Rosalina, and Sheik, he's a character that's royally screwed over by this games physics. It's kind of ironic, the changes that largely erased off the top kills and ladder combos is what has all but neutered Bowser Jr, who was already bottom ten in Smash 4. For some weird reason, they didn't keep this in mind when they gave him the changes they did. It's like they made the changes for a hypothetical 1.1.8 and thought, nah, let him suck.
 
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Ziodyne 21

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Bowser Jr would actually be amazing... If this were Smash 4. Like Falcon, Rosalina, and Sheik, he's a character that royally screwed over by this games physics. It's kind of ironic, the changes that largely erased off the top kills and ladder combos is what has all but neutered Bowser Jr, who was already bottom ten in Smash 4.

I would also add Mewtwo to that list to a lesser extent. He did not get directly nerfed to the ground like Rosalina say. but similairly the new system changes are not kind to characters being as big and light as he is
 
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peekpeek

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After forcing myself into Elite with :ultbowserjr::ultludwig:, I've kind of come around on him. He definitely has some stuff going on. Hard-to-kill / great comeback (Side-B and the free jump cancel gets you back 80% of the time without having to use your double jump or Up-B), very good edge-guarding options (cannon, mechakoopa throw, dropping the clown car with up-B, or even simple chasing with an F-air). Also good air juggle, if not true combos, are simple enough. Fork-fork-fork-*-aerial when they start to get away. He also takes less damage in general unless the enemy is going for headshots?

He's very stage and matchup dependent. I can't think of any character where FD-style is this much better than BF-style maps, and too many of the most popular characters either have significantly better frame data and range, or simple projectiles that break his kart. The super armor threshold needs to be boosted by a percent or two, or else his matchups against some characters sitting under platforms will be too awful to justify playing him.

"Kill Confirms" are his biggest general problem, and a bunch of weird hitboxes on his attacks (up-smash and down-smash are shockingly narrow). Kart spinout and F-smash are the only things that are certain kills at 80-100% against most enemies. Back air, post-Up-B hammer smacks, and the jab-uppercut can also do it, but not from center stage. Most kills will come from his myriad edge-guarding options, though.

Overall, he will be regarded as low-tier (bottom 25%?) but he has enough good parts to maybe be a decent secondary. He needs a hitbox revision more than anything else-- up-air needs a larger hitbox in general, and his kart needs to do reliably hit with more than just the wheels.
 
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The_Bookworm

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is samus still considered a bad character or has the consensus changed on her?
Consensus has changed on her a while ago (particularly when the game is released). She practically has her entire moveset buffed. Her Charge Shot in particular is ridiculous. The dash attack nerf does require her to play more patient than in SSB4, but she has overall adapted to Ultimate's engine decently well. I don't see her as a top tier threat at all (still some of her old issues), but she is looking pretty solid.


I also take credit for being one of the very few people who believed in her pre-release. Not bragging, or anything....
 
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