Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Ffamran]

The loop hits use 366° autolinks in Ultimate.

That's interesting. I'm going to guess that the differences between the 366 and 367 angles and the differences between the set knockback of his Nair and Fair are why Nair isn't connecting well in Ultimate compared to 1.0.8 Smash 4. The way the wiki words it and other explanations on how autolink angles work, 367 is good for grounded and aerial targets. It's also good for characters who move fast in one direction which for Falco and 1.0.8 Nair was vertically. Falco jumps high and falls fast letting rising and falling Nair work well. At the same time, he doesn't move fast horizontally in the air, so he could drag people horizontally with Nair to chain them at low percents.

Falco's Fair on the other hand is primarily used against airborne targets and he doesn't really do much besides hit them with it. Fast-falling to spike with it doesn't exist anymore with the changes to the 366 angle in 1.0.4 Smash 4 for Falco at least since Fox was able to do it with his Fair in Smash 4. Rising Fair isn't really a thing either since it's not a good out of shield option and when it is being used from a rise, it's usually to catch an opponent at the apex of his jump or double jump. He can do falling Fair confirms, but that's just abusing its much lower landing lag in this game and being able to cause hit stun with the loop hits, but not send them anywhere. Falling Nair is the same thing, but has lower landing lag.

Nair chains is one reason I can think of why they would change the hit angle from 367 to 366 since Ultimate Falco's Nair dropped down from Smash 4's 15 landing lag to Brawl's 9 and he does move faster, so I could see Falco being able to do even more dumb things with Nair. Instead of trading Brawl's falling Nair confirms for frame sync Nairs, rising/falling/better connecting Nairs, Falco could have had both. That said, it exacerbates the issue Falco had in Smash 4 with Nair and Fair being too similar moves. Nair was good for comboing and edgeguarding and so was Fair, but Fair could kill. In Ultimate, Fair can do pretty much everything Nair can while connecting better in return for being 4 frames slower on startup, frame 7, having 6 more frames of landing lag, and doing less total damage which doesn't really matter at kill percents when the last hit of Fair has higher growth than Nair -- in Smash 4 at least.

For frame sync Nairs, the last hit having higher base knockback could stop Falco from being able to follow up much less combo from frame synced Nairs assuming frame syncing still exists. Aside from giving it a landing hit which would make it even more degenerate of a move or increasing its landing lag severely, I can't think of anything to do with falling Nairs. Whatever.

Still not sure why the loop hits of Zelda's Nair didn't keep the 366 autolink angles.

Also, assuming you have access to the game files and are able to find this stuff, is his Bair basically the same in Ultimate where the only difference is the frame 9 startup? Even then, man, would Fox and Wolf have killed for his Bair. You don't have to look into this. I'm thankful for all the people working on this and patiently waiting for whenever and however every characters' knockback, hit angle, and other values are made available.

Spoiler: Autolink links

SSB wiki: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Autolink_angle.

TheLobsterCopter5000's thread on autolink angles: https://smashboards.com/threads/how-all-the-autolink-angles-work-in-ssb4.452659/.

Ruben's guess on how 366 hit angles work: https://twitter.com/Ruben_dal/status/837031271188598794.

DRAFIX's demonstration of how 367 hit angles work: https://twitter.com/drafix570/status/1032644437757767680?s=19.

Edit: Forgot that there might be difference in hitboxes as Ultimate seems to have started using more ground and aerial hitboxes.

 

[Deleted member]

I just don’t understand how she’s getting rated mid tier on some pro’s tier lists when it seems pretty obvious she’s a high tier character

Three words She got nerfed remember how Meta Knight was bottom tier in early Smash 4 tier lists just for the simple fact he couldn't do everything he couldn't brawl and it is early so a Meta game is trying to develop

 

[J0eyboi]

Nair chains is one reason I can think of why they would change the hit angle from 367 to 366 since Ultimate Falco's Nair dropped down from Smash 4's 15 landing lag to Brawl's 9 and he does move faster, so I could see Falco being able to do even more dumb things with Nair. Instead of trading Brawl's falling Nair confirms for frame sync Nairs, rising/falling/better connecting Nairs, Falco could have had both.

Frame sync Nair has nothing to do with the angle change and everything to do with the hits themselves. In Smash 4, hit 4 of Nair came out frame 23, which happened to be the last frame of a perfect SHFF with Falco. As such, frame-perfect SHFF Nair would always frame sync. In Ultimate, Falco's Nair, along with many other multihit aerials, was sped up, meaning the last hit now occurs on frame 19 and frame sync Nair is no longer a thing. Frame syncing is still very much possible, though. I do it all the time on accident while practicing Roy stuff.

Also, assuming you have access to the game files and are able to find this stuff, is his Bair basically the same in Ultimate where the only difference is the frame 9 startup?

I don't have the game files, but it has a worse AC window, too.

 

[Ffamran]

Frame sync Nair has nothing to do with the angle change and everything to do with the hits themselves. In Smash 4, hit 4 of Nair came out frame 23, which happened to be the last frame of a perfect SHFF with Falco. As such, frame-perfect SHFF Nair would always frame sync. In Ultimate, Falco's Nair, along with many other multihit aerials, was sped up, meaning the last hit now occurs on frame 19 and frame sync Nair is no longer a thing. Frame syncing is still very much possible, though. I do it all the time on accident while practicing Roy stuff.

I meant that had Ultimate Falco kept 1.0.8 Smash 4 Nair, but with the reduced landing lag, Falco could have had a much better Nair since it would have the good qualities of Brawl's Nair and Smash 4's Nair. The angle change made it so it doesn't connect as well while the last hit frame change made it so it can no longer frame sync.

The reason I asked if frame syncing was a thing was because I don't know if anyone has figured out if any of the characters have practical or reliable frame sync aerials. Falco is the character I know the most about and Smash 4 Falco happened to have used frame synced Nairs a lot and his frame sync Dair was when people learned about or looked into frame syncing more. When people got their hands on early copies, one user was willing to look into stuff for the Falco boards and I asked about it and he said Falco couldn't frame sync Nair. So, all I knew was something, whatever that may be, was preventing it from happening.

I don't have the game files, but it has a worse AC window, too.

Before frame 4 and after frame 14 or 1-3, 15- as others state it as? That's what the Japanese spreadsheet says: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...nf1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=609586896. I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers are placeholders since who flipping cares about Falco?

1-8, 15- would also make sense considering its startup is frame 9 now which in that case, Fox would probably want to kill Falco even more for his Bair. Fox would trade 1 less active frame for a strong hit, 4 more landing frames, a different hit angle, 30 degrees to 361, and probably lower base knockback or worse hit advantage at low percents for much higher growth, 88 to whatever it is in Ultimate or 130 in Smash 4, lower total frames, 48 frames to 37 because Falco reasons, and a late hit in case he ever wants to use it for weird stuff which I'm sure Fox would be capable of doing since Fox moves much faster than Falco.

 

[KirbySquad101]

No spoilers, but Maister vs Frosty at Retro Arena 64 just now was one of the best Ultimate sets I've seen. Catch the VOD for some cutting edge G&W and Belmont play.

Holy crap, that last game was one of the most intense battles I've seen in any Smash Ultimate. It really felt like I was watching the Grand Finals of that set. SPOILER TALK down below:

That turnaround from Maister game 5 was absolutely beautiful; I like how he adapted and made a lot of adjustments to his gameplay in that short time span. I noticed was making a bad habit out of some of his misplays during games 2-4 (the biggest offenders were falling into Richter's shield with an aerial leading to constant Up B punishes, and getting impatient at times, which led to falling into Holy Water too often) so I'm glad he made the proper adjustments he needed to in the end.

Frosty also did really well in knowing when to switch from walling out Maister to punishing and keeping him in a disadvantaged state whenever he would trip it.

 

[J0eyboi]

So getting off the patch and buffs and nerfs topic for a little while, I think ZSS is slept on. She has a ton of high damage combos, she’s quick, she has a decent projectile and good range, and she has a ton of kill confirms even from early percents. Her ladder combo is still intact too. That seems like a recipe for a really good character to me. I know there are pros still playing her and nobody thinks she’s bad but there’s very little hype around her. I think the community is sleeping on her a little bit

I guess she’s on the more technical and difficult side to play but that shouldn’t stop high level players

ZSS has a lot of problems that make playing her unappealing. One is that she has among the worst grab games in the game, between her grab's terrible frame data and lack of reward off throws. That on its own was enough to cripple a character in Smash 4, but fortunately it's Ultimate now and shield sucks.

Unfortunately, it's Ultimate now and shield sucks, which means ZSS' already bad OoS game is now even worse, a problem compounded by Boost Kick losing almost all of its range. Her frame 1 jab and decent escape options OoS help, but her lack of OoS punishes still stings.

Her ground game is also quite bad. Even in Smash 4, it wasn't great, and it's only really gotten worse. I've gone over the grab nerfs, which turned a high-risk, high-reward burst and whiff-punish option into a high-risk, low-reward one, but that's just the start of it. Dsmash is unsafe on hit at low percents, and much harder to convert off of overall. Paralyzer also took a hit, with the uncharged version now being actually impossible to get followups off of unless you are close enough for Jab to connect. Utilt lost its leg intangibility and trample effect, making it a much worse antiair and much worse scramble option. Dtilt, while it has much less endlag now, has much less range as well, severely limiting its use as a poke. Her Ftilt is a decent poke, but still doesn't really do anything other than damage. She has no rising aerials, either. As a result, her gameplan in neutral consists almost entirely of spaced Nair and Zair, which can make her very predictable.

Her recovery also took a hit. Side-B takes a lot longer to tether, which means she has to commit to tethering much earlier, and can't really tether at all if she's below the ledge. Not a huge nerf, but when your Up-B is as bad as ZSS' is for recovering, it's the sort of thing you really don't want being changed.

She also lost a lot of her assorted kill confirms from Smash 4, though she did gain a few in return, and her ladder combos are a lot easier to mess up thanks to the changes to Boost Kick (though at least people don't fall out of it anymore).

Is she bad now? Probably not; she's still pretty fast and very terrifying to get hit by. Is she as good as she was in Smash 4? Definitely not. Is she as good as you think she is? I sincerely doubt it. The loss of one of her best combo starters in Dthrow hurts a lot, and she abused rage like no other.

Before frame 4 and after frame 14 or 1-3, 15- as others state it as? That's what the Japanese spreadsheet says: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...nf1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=609586896. I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers are placeholders since who flipping cares about Falco?

I believe any number that's greyed out in that sheet is a placeholder. Anyway, quick testing gives me 1-3, 20>, meaning its late autocancel window is the same number of frames after it becomes active as it was in Smash 4. Were it still 15> I'm pretty sure the autocancel window would overlap the active frames.

 

[Lavani]

Also, assuming you have access to the game files and are able to find this stuff, is his Bair basically the same in Ultimate where the only difference is the frame 9 startup?

Damage/angle/knockback on early/late hits are the same, just at different timings.

Before frame 4 and after frame 14 or 1-3, 15- as others state it as? That's what the Japanese spreadsheet says: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...nf1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=609586896. I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers are placeholders

Greyed-out numbers are smash 4 placeholders, yes.

Still not sure why the loop hits of Zelda's Nair didn't keep the 366 autolink angles.

I'd assume with lower landing lag and fair/bair having buffed sweetspot sizes (which, I was watching ven successfully hit sweetspots using sh fair OoS yesterday on humanoid characters, so that's a thing) they wanted to limit how well Zelda could drag the opponent around with nair for nair>farore, nair>fair/bair, nair>usmash, etc.

Frame syncing is still very much possible, though. I do it all the time on accident while practicing Roy stuff.

Thanks, I'd been wondering about this and suspected it was still a thing, but hadn't heard anything one way or the other.

 

[PK Gaming]

Lately I've been using Mario/Cloud, and I feel like both of these characters are really good for learning how to play neutral and maximizing your punishes, because you kind of have to if you want to win.

As a Robin main, I think it's good to use characters that don't skip neutral interaction. I noticed that character obscured a lot of my shortcomings as a player, so i'm glad I branched out.

 

[MG_3989]

ZSS has a lot of problems that make playing her unappealing. One is that she has among the worst grab games in the game, between her grab's terrible frame data and lack of reward off throws. That on its own was enough to cripple a character in Smash 4, but fortunately it's Ultimate now and shield sucks.

Unfortunately, it's Ultimate now and shield sucks, which means ZSS' already bad OoS game is now even worse, a problem compounded by Boost Kick losing almost all of its range. Her frame 1 jab and decent escape options OoS help, but her lack of OoS punishes still stings.

Her ground game is also quite bad. Even in Smash 4, it wasn't great, and it's only really gotten worse. I've gone over the grab nerfs, which turned a high-risk, high-reward burst and whiff-punish option into a high-risk, low-reward one, but that's just the start of it. Dsmash is unsafe on hit at low percents, and much harder to convert off of overall. Paralyzer also took a hit, with the uncharged version now being actually impossible to get followups off of unless you are close enough for Jab to connect. Utilt lost its leg intangibility and trample effect, making it a much worse antiair and much worse scramble option. Dtilt, while it has much less endlag now, has much less range as well, severely limiting its use as a poke. Her Ftilt is a decent poke, but still doesn't really do anything other than damage. She has no rising aerials, either. As a result, her gameplan in neutral consists almost entirely of spaced Nair and Zair, which can make her very predictable.

Her recovery also took a hit. Side-B takes a lot longer to tether, which means she has to commit to tethering much earlier, and can't really tether at all if she's below the ledge. Not a huge nerf, but when your Up-B is as bad as ZSS' is for recovering, it's the sort of thing you really don't want being changed.

She also lost a lot of her assorted kill confirms from Smash 4, though she did gain a few in return, and her ladder combos are a lot easier to mess up thanks to the changes to Boost Kick (though at least people don't fall out of it anymore).

Is she bad now? Probably not; she's still pretty fast and very terrifying to get hit by. Is she as good as she was in Smash 4? Definitely not. Is she as good as you think she is? I sincerely doubt it. The loss of one of her best combo starters in Dthrow hurts a lot, and she abused rage like no other.

Alright, that makes sense.

I didn’t play or follow Smash 4 so I don’t know much about her strengths and weaknesses in that game other than her ladder and combo game. I honestly knew nothing about her frame data before posting this but I assumed it was pretty decent being that she’s a fast character. It makes sense to place her lower if her ground game is really that bad and she lost her main combo starter

I guess I was just looking at the positives and potential of the character rather than the reality of how she actually plays in a match. I definitely don’t think she’s bad though

 

[J0eyboi]

Update on frame syncing: It might not actually matter anymore. It's hard to test because I cannot for the life of me get anything to frame sync in frame-by-frame mode, but it looks like when you land during hitlag, the landing lag animation is slowed down the same way the attack animation is normally slowed down during hitlag, whereas in Smash 4 landing during hitlag caused the landing lag animation to play out at normal speed. Still not sure though. If anyone else can figure out how to make things frame sync in frame-by-frame so they can test it, please do.

 

[Ffamran]

I believe any number that's greyed out in that sheet is a placeholder. Anyway, quick testing gives me 1-3, 20>, meaning its late autocancel window is the same number of frames after it becomes active as it was in Smash 4. Were it still 15> I'm pretty sure the autocancel window would overlap the active frames.

In that case, the auto-cancel window was shifted to match the new timing. In a way, that's worse because it takes longer to auto-cancel it after its last active frame, but it's still the same 4 frames after, so it's not really a worse auto-cancel window if that makes any sense.

I'd assume with lower landing lag and fair/bair having buffed sweetspot sizes (which, I was watching ven successfully hit sweetspots using sh fair OoS yesterday on humanoid characters, so that's a thing) they wanted to limit how well Zelda could drag the opponent around with nair for nair>farore, nair>fair/bair, nair>usmash, etc.

Eh, Zelda needs anything she can get even if it totally breaks her.

But really, though, yeah I can see that. Nair to lightning kicks would be the most extreme case considering how hard they hit, but that said, Zelda's Nair is her more versatile one and it not being reliable is a problem. It's in a tough situation because of the rest of Zelda's kit, but if Falco's Nair ended up with the 366 autolink angles for its loop hits in Ultimate and has connection issues, then I could still see it working without making Zelda stupid. She'd have stronger outcomes from using Nair as a confirm because her overall kill power is high, much higher than Falco's, but she still has to deal with how her Nair hits and her movement values. I wonder if its loop hits having fixed knockback would help. It would have consistent hitstun and knockback for its loop hits instead of eventually growing and having high to low base knockback depending on the hitbox.

As for Falco's Nair, I wonder if reverting its loop hit angles back to Brawl and launch Smash 4's 110 degrees would have been a better idea than the 366 autolink angle.

 

[Today's Tom Sawyer]

I'm still pretty bullish on ZSS. (Disclaimer: did not play and only cursorily followed sm4sh. Did main ZSS in PM.)

Dash-cancelled down tilt, up tilt, and up smash all seem pretty strong as raw neutral mix-ups when combined with her good ground mobility, especially on dual-platform stages where she controls stage easily. Down tilt in particular seems like a good trade-off for the nerf to down throw.
Her grab is not meant as a raw neutral tool like, say, Pichu's, but as a conditioning-based whiff punish. The reinstantiation of dash dancing certainly helps it out quite a bit, even if the follow-ups are worse. Grab games in general really only seem integral to a handful of characters compared to past games.
Rising forward air is now effective as a mixup in neutral at low and medium percents against all but the lightest and floatiest characters. This is particularly relevant given that falling neutral air is best used, and adds another dimension to her aerial weave game.
Side b now has follow-up opportunities, though not to the degree of PM's version. Admittedly, I need to lab this with greater nuance.

As far as pure rushdown characters, not quite to the level of Greninja, Fox, or Pichu, but also sporting some advantages (large hitboxes, decent zoning with grab aerial, side b, and neutral b) usually lacking in rushdown types. Solid high tier, probably not top tier, but possibly, depending on top-level representation.

 

[Nobie]

https://youtu.be/nLimX3c8HMI

Here's a video in Japanese of Zackray's thoughts on Ridley.

Some important points:
-Zackray believes Ridley to be a strong character
-Describes him as basically having a strong neutral and high damage-racking, but lacks kill confirms
-Also has a strong recovery
-No real kill throws
-Weakness is mainly being big-bodied. Takes as much as he dishes out
-Demonstrates a match in Elite Smash to show what the character can do

Note that the term I translated as "neutral" is tachimawari (literally "standing and moving around," but generally refers to being in a fight). In fighting game terms, it means a character's general mobility, options, and ability to engage/disengage.

 

[Nocally]

I remember from the smash 4 competitive character impressions thread, some people talked about characters with bad oos punishes but with great movement specs benefitted from moving around and avoid attacks instead of shielding them. With shield getting nerfed and movements specs being buffed in ultimate, wouldn't some characters benefit heavily from this since their oos game is lacking? Minordeth talked about it before.

 

[Krysco]

With the talk before of potential nerfs in 2.0.0, another thing I'd like to bring up is how some top tiers got by relatively unscathed in Sm4sh. Mario only got a nerf to his utilt damage and got a buff to the sourspot on his fsmash to remove a blindspot. Fox lost his jab 1 2 leading into itself which on its own is pretty big but otherwise got buffs to his rapid jab (better connection), shine (bigger hitbox) and Blaster (less endlag). Pikachu who is admittedly a high tier rather than top tier, only got nerfs to Thunder to make it not instantly fill a G&W Bucket, his edge grab being standardized, customs and removing QAC on Omega Umbra Clock Tower. Everything else he got was buffs. Ryu was DLC and therefore got less chances to be patched but he only ever got his turnaround increased from 2 frames to 5. Marcina and Mewtwo while not initially top tier (and the latter also being DLC) also got insignificant nerfs with the former losing jab 1 jab locks and jab 1 doing less damage (the same patch that made jab 1 pop the opponent upwards), partially charged Shield Breaker doing less shield damage and the sourspot on dtilt being made smaller. Mewtwo only got the first hit of usmash made smaller and oddly enough, that change was made before all of the other changes that contributed to making Mewtwo top tier in Sm4sh.

On the other hand however, I will also point out some nerfs that go against my whole 'unscathed' comment. Falcon, despite only ever being high tier, got nerfs to the power of down angled fsmash, uairs damage (nerf to kill power but buff to higher percent comboability), bairs damage and the hitbox size of his rapid jab finisher being made smaller. Lucario got a bit of a mix of buffs and nerfs too, namely nerfs to his smash attacks, Aura Sphere and up special landing lag and buffs to his movement speed and jab connecting better. The bigger oddities come from Little Mac, Dedede and Charizard who all got nerfs of some kind despite never being very good characters. I imagine these 3 were nerfed specifically for online play as Mac was likely dominate in early FG, Dedede thrived in it with its low timer and his high power and survivability and Charizard just got more recoil damage for using Flare Blitz, likely due to people online spamming it.

We lack much control on how the patches will affect the game (really just Elite Smash and tournament play) but there's little reason to fear every top tier getting nerfed into the ground.

While less noteworthy due to how different Smash is handled nowadays compared to before, I'll also mention how when adjusting Melee for European countries (the PAL version), Peach, Jigglypuff and Ice Climbers weren't nerfed at all (aside from ICies losing the freeze glitch) while Ganondorf, Mario and Ness got some nerfs.

 

[Nobie]

Arika, a Jigglypuff main, won a Japanese tournament a few hours ago in Japan over a Wolf player.

Shura-bra Ultimate Ⅰ - Results!
Bracket:https://t.co/d4fmFg6tZ2 pic.twitter.com/G9oTrgd1aU

— あるくぅ (@ar_c4) January 27, 2019

It was hype, to say the least. I'll post the vod when it gets uploaded.

 

[Rizen]

No spoilers, but Maister vs Frosty at Retro Arena 64 just now was one of the best Ultimate sets I've seen. Catch the VOD for some cutting edge G&W and Belmont play.

It's up on youtube now:

I'll edit this or post again when I have time to watch it

 

[Foie]

It's up on youtube now:

I'll edit this or post again when I have time to watch it

Very interesting match! Is up throw to side-b a true combo at low percents? Game & watch gets a lot of mileage out of his new up air. Between that and nair, many characters can get stuck in juggle hell.

On the flip side, his fair just seemed like a non-factor most of that match and inhibited his ability to punish Richter once he got in. Only a couple of them connected, and he got punished for it more often than he found success. I know some people say it's too early to write it off, but based on what I've seen I find it to be simply a garbage move. It's basically a worse version of samus' bombs minus the movement mixup.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Very interesting match! Is up throw to side-b a true combo at low percents? Game & watch gets a lot of mileage out of his new up air. Between that and nair, many characters can get stuck in juggle hell.

On the flip side, his fair just seemed like a non-factor most of that match and inhibited his ability to punish Richter once he got in. Only a couple of them connected, and he got punished for it more often than he found success. I know some people say it's too early to write it off, but based on what I've seen I find it to be simply a garbage move. It's basically a worse version of samus' bombs minus the movement mixup.

I think FAir's usage depends on the match-up; when Maister was using the move against Ned in the Losers Finals/Winners Quarters he got more mileage off the move as sort of a bait/keep away attack. It also helps that Mr. Game and Watch has a good air speed which allows him to drift away while using the attack.

From what I can tell Maister was trying to use it as a poking tool whenever Frosty had the Holy Water active; didn't really work because the bomb was too high to reach Richter and he ended up just falling into the Holy Water anytime he did it.

As for Side B, I think it can sometimes, but depending on the opponent's DI, it can be really hard to land, especially if they're flung directly upward; in most situations NAir is a more reliable follow-up off of DThrow because of it.

 

[Shaya]

Okay, Zero Suit.
I guess its that once every 2 week rant post about her.

Reflecting on my week 1 feels; "kinda pretty boring that forward air might be everything for her now".
Those weren't my exact words, but I really did have this feeling of 'so many things nerfed, fair got buffed, are we meant to just be a fair bot?'
"I don't like this"

Well, long story short, this character is probably meant to be a fair bot. Forward Air is an incredibly good move.
And, now, I probably like it. Losing back air as her neutral tool is a big loss to my bair-fetishist within me, but it's probably better to keep it fresh.
Forward Air is a rising aerial option, hitting much that you would expect Diddy rising fair to. It does have a hard time hitting small/medium opponents at varying distances but this is ok. Standing pichu gets scooped by running rising fair - that's probably better than diddy's rising fair.
It's a fantastic oos option.
To say zero suit has bad oos options still is kinda ehhhh. Grabs as an oos are less of a thing now for everyone. Jab/Up Tilt/Fair oos are very solid.

The move is now 'usable' on the rise, and it's how we used it in s4 primarily too. But with the way it is now, we were barely ever using it to land with and yet it's actually pretty frikken stupid at it. She can zone most characters out, including swordies, with this move.
Her animation shifts her hurtbox backwards during start up - fantastic.
The second kick extends out very far and is easy to 'space' towards the right area of a shield to pressure properly (compared to nair which its ability to vary position of it's shield pressure on smaller characters is essentially non existent).

Those from the Brawl era might recall I'm Marth Neutral Air Zealot, and... Zero Suit's forward air in this game is functionally a fencer neutral air. With the second hit's start up being buffed/returned to it's Brawl speed, with it's smash 4 hitboxes and comparatively very buffed landing lag (now the same as s4 neutral air). It is able to 'carrot and stick' bait, where the first hit acts as the 'carrot' to cover body extensions from your opponent at a safe distance and to bait whiff punish attempts, whilst the second hit whacks you like a stick - with it's extended range reaching where the first hit would even while weaving back.

Yesterday a[n S4] Cloud main ******* / complained to me how it must be nice to have a rising and falling aerial options that spaces and combos.
After the initial extreme hilarity over the irony settled (and the release of 2+ years of built up rage over Cloud's press-the-button-and-always-win-bull****), I had to go "huh, you're right!".

"How do we deal with Fox buttons like nair falling ughhh the risk reward!"
Forward air.

I'm still pretty upset about the nerfed ground game.
My heart longs for dtilt's range back and up tilt being slightly better.

But..... maybe forward air is such a game defining move that she needed to have her ground game nerfed. That results in a big pain in my gut, however alongside it's ability to do my tax return, take out the rubbish bins, etc etc etc it might also have anti-nausea properties. Who knows.


"She could be top tier actually"

 

[Nidtendofreak]

But like..... maybe forward air is such a game defining move that she needed to have her ground game nerfed. That results in a big pain in my gut but, eh, maybe forward air is all the anti-nausea medication you need (alongside it's ability to do my tax return, take out the rubbish bins, etc etc etc).

Not to boil down a breakdown to a single point but: that's what they did with Ike due to his Nair. Ike is in want of more range on his Dtilt, more damage on his Jab, his Utilt to cover behind him again, a better grab, etc etc but he has the best Nair in the game in return. Seems to have been one of their design philosophies this time around. SSB4 it was "throws to combos are cool on heavies (and Diddy/Luigi)", this time around it seems to be "its alright for a character to a monster aerial they can base most of their game around if we cripple their ground game in return".

 

[Shaya]

Not to boil down a breakdown to a single point but: that's what they did with Ike due to his Nair. Ike is in want of more range on his Dtilt, more damage on his Jab, his Utilt to cover behind him again, a better grab, etc etc but he has the best Nair in the game in return. Seems to have been one of their design philosophies this time around. SSB4 it was "throws to combos are cool on heavies (and Diddy/Luigi)", this time around it seems to be "its alright for a character to a monster aerial they can base most of their game around if we cripple their ground game in return".

[Un]fortunately, I think ZSS has it a lot better - she's still reasonably functional playing like she does in S4 - aka minimal use of this move thus far.
She also comes with the fastest initial dash in the game, a frame 1 jab (the "if you wanna perfect shield moves/projectiles that are around 10% like in Brawl/S4, why not main ZSS!?" marketing slogan). Her ground game's still kinda "cool" I guess, and has room to develop, at least, as well.

Furthermore, her forward air is likely very option rich in comparison to Ike's nair. Even if this move proves to be her main staple, that's probably still more dynamic than just sh ff nair she leaned on in S4. While Ike can (and probably will) learn to put variation with backwards or front facing, figuring out ideal heights that aren't just on landing to use it, etc etc, it still probably caps out to not being much better than what we're already seeing now.


Thus far, the only perceived and agreed upon bad MU for ZSS has been Fox. It already showing development and an even-ing up so rapidly, with Marss taking out arguably the best Fox player in the world (Light) is a really good sign of sorts. From my viewing of the set, it was a lot of fantastic edge guarding, but also a steady and noticeable increased usage of forward air.

 

[Game7a1]

Arika, a Jigglypuff main, won a Japanese tournament a few hours ago in Japan over a Wolf player.

Shura-bra Ultimate Ⅰ - Results!
Bracket:https://t.co/d4fmFg6tZ2 pic.twitter.com/G9oTrgd1aU

— あるくぅ (@ar_c4) January 27, 2019

It was hype, to say the least. I'll post the vod when it gets uploaded.

Looking at the bracket, I see OCEAN was DQ'ed during Winner's and Loser's Finals. It would have been nice to see how Arika vs OCEAN went.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Looking at the bracket, I see OCEAN was DQ'ed during Winner's and Loser's Finals. It would have been nice to see how Arika vs OCEAN went.

Yeah I read that Ocean’s hands hurt and he dropped out

 

[LancerStaff]

Len believes Dark Pit is better due to his arrows and side b being better in ultimate, from what he's said to me.

People have been saying that but I doubt it. People always like to ride the hype and say edgy is better but meh.

Dark Pit’s arrows are very strong now but Pit’s arrows still do a lot more for him. Some characters straight up die to Pit’s arrows offstage and it enables him to fight against zoners a lot more effectively, along with being a better recovery/ledge option. Though Dthrow > arrow is an interesting option for Dark Pit, it’s not like Pit’s arrow combos are awful nor are the substitutes bad. Not even sure arrow combos are optimal to begin with tbh.

Electroshock’s buffs are good but Upperdash got more buffs. It got more of a KB buff than Electroshock, and while it doesn’t kill super early in a good position it’s still *consistent* like before. It and it alone has less endlag after an aerial hit as well, Electroshock did not get this buff.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Electroshock’s buffs are good but Upperdash got more buffs. It got more of a KB buff than Electroshock, and while it doesn’t kill super early in a good position it’s still *consistent* like before. It and it alone has less endlag after an aerial hit as well, Electroshock did not get this buff.

Doesn't stop the fact that Electroshock is simply a better move, as it's lower launch angle not only allows it to KO earlier at the ledge, but it sends the opponents offstage, where DPit wants the opponent to be. The lower launch angle makes it a much better edgeguarding move on it's own.

 

[Green Spiny]

Electroshock’s buffs are good but Upperdash got more buffs. It got more of a KB buff than Electroshock, and while it doesn’t kill super early in a good position it’s still *consistent* like before. It and it alone has less endlag after an aerial hit as well, Electroshock did not get this buff.

Even if the hit lag was reduced, aerial Upperdash is still punishable when hitting a low % opponent. Especially if they're heavy or have a dive kick. Meanwhile I've yet to be punished hitting an Electroshock Arm thanks to the horizontal KB.

 

[MG_3989]

So I don’t know if it’s just me but I’m really interested to see how Leffen’s Pokémon Trainer preforms at Genesis. So far it seems like we haven’t seen a ton of Pokémon Trainer representation but pretty much everybody agrees that they’re a very good character. Having three characters with different strengths and weaknesses is such a huge matchup advantage. I love watching Leffen as a player first of all and I love the way he plays Smash so I’m really interested in what heights he can take Pokémon Trainer too. I think he’s the Melee player who has the best chance of having sustained success and being a top player in Ultimate if he wants to and continues to play the game

So basically I wanna see how Pokémon Trainer does in Geneisis and if the Melee players (especially living in Sweden) will be able to keep up with the Smash 4 players at Genesis

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Leffen has been going through a little bit of a character crisis and has said he might switch to Wolf after Genesis. Living in Sweden and not getting as many opportunities to practice matchups, Pokémon Trainer is a lot more work without an obvious payoff. Charizard also could use a tweak or two.

 

[MG_3989]

Leffen has been going through a little bit of a character crisis and has said he might switch to Wolf after Genesis. Living in Sweden and not getting as many opportunities to practice matchups, Pokémon Trainer is a lot more work without an obvious payoff. Charizard also could use a tweak or two.

Living in Sweden and not having the opportunity play in locals and regionals against top level players frequently is really a detriment to him and I can definitely see how it would effect Pokémon Trainer more than a character like Wolf since PM needs to learn each matchup with three different characters. I do hope he sticks with Pokémon Trainer despite that though because I love watching his Pokémon Trainer and they’re such a cool character and he plays them really well.

While I do agree that Charizard is situational and needs some tweaks he does have his uses. You have two other characters to play with and then you can kind of pull out Charizard as a pocket heavy when you need him. I don’t think he’s a reason not to play the character

 

[Browny]

Leffens only going through a crisis because people woke up and realised once charizard comes out, he does nothing but upsmash oos, or flare blitz from across the stage. Once they stopped giving up their stock for free the instant they touched 100%, leffen began to struggle.

TBH he'd probably do better if he just stuck to Ivysaur 100% of the time.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I just wish Charizard had more safe options neutral he could throw out. Squirtle has amazing frame data, Ivysaur has solid disjoints, and Charizard has...um...jab and Nair I guess? Everything he does is something of a commitment, which is why I think a lot of players are understandably off put by him. Pretty much anything he does can be pretty easily punished. He's forced to depend on a defensive, bait and punish playstyle in neutral while Ivy and Squirt get to control the pace of the match and play the way they want to.

I do think a lot of players are neglecting him a bit too much though. I've said this before but too many times have I seen people try to switch to Squirtle after getting a kill while they're at like 90% and then die immediately afterwards and it pains me every time. Zard's not just a Flare Blitz machine and I think a lot of people fail to understand that. He's got an amazing advantage state and can both wrack up damage and kill effectively when neutral has been won. He's far from the most valuable member (I think we can all agree that's Ivysaur), but I still believe mastering him is still and important part of mastering Pokemon Trainer.

Still though please do give him buffs Sakurai, I want Fair to autocancel from a short hop again.

 

[Allkings]

who do you think need buffs? (for me it's and maybe )

 

[Thinkaman]

Yet on the flipside, it pains me to see both rando and skilled PTs struggle to get down and reset with Charizard, like they are a DK or DDD, when Squirtle can get down just fine.

I find that when I'm playing PT "well", part of it is switching more than 3 times per stock. (This is especailly true against anyone whose damage output is heavily based on an juggling anti-airdodge advantage state)

You should always have a good reason to switch, but good reasons are surprisingly common.

 

[Yonder]

who do you think need buffs? (for me it's and maybe )

Robin immediately comes to mind. Already they were debated as worst in the game upon release prior to patches in 4. Then they got checkmate and people realized arcthunder and levin sword just redeemed them.

Now in ultimate, we have Robin who lost a kill confirm, lost arcthunder follow ups due to less hitstun, and doesn't have a proper working Levin sword (can no longer flick c stick in the air to bring it out right away, the primary reason I dropped him) and you have to wait for it now? Not to mention arcfire leaves Robin in the casting animation way too long - it's hard to look at how much better Simon's holy water, functioning the game,is so much better. You can actually follow up more...especially since he's faster and has range. Robin is still the 2nd slowest in game and can't even spam arcfire cause of limited use. Simon can use his all day long.

Robin is in a really sorry state and I think the worst in game next to Mac, I think Kirby is quite a bit better than those two.

Robin has nothing left in ultimate except...a nice Levin sword Nair.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Yet on the flipside, it pains me to see both rando and skilled PTs struggle to get down and reset with Charizard, like they are a DK or DDD, when Squirtle can get down just fine.

I find that when I'm playing PT "well", part of it is switching more than 3 times per stock. (This is especailly true against anyone whose damage output is heavily based on an juggling anti-airdodge advantage state)

You should always have a good reason to switch, but good reasons are surprisingly common.

Okay yeah, I'm completely guilty of this. Sometimes I'm too stubborn about trying to recovery with Ivysaur or land with Charizard when it's just not worth it.

I think a large part of that still stems from confidence, or rather a lack there of. Most players have favorites that they want to spend most of the match in. I personally prefer Ivysaur and Charizard, so I underutilize Squirtle in a lot of situations. It's uncomfortable using a character that isn't your go-to main or counterpick in a high stakes match so a lot of players are naturally going to try to avoid that.

I also think a lot of us also have the issue of trying to fit each Pokemon into a box to determine when we should use what. "Squirtle for dealing damage, Ivysaur for zoning, Charizard for killing". But when we simplify it to that degree we ignore that Ivysaur and Charizard also have solid ways of dishing out damage, or that even Squirtle has some niche kill options (I think everyone realizes that Ivysaur is still good at killing though). Of course each of the three pokemon are far better at certain jobs and there are plenty of times when you'll want specific ones out but it's not as black/white as a lot of us tend to make it out to be. Too many of us (myself included) also try to stick fairly close to the 0%/45%/90% "rule of thumb" to dictate which monster we have out, which ties back to that oversimplified generalizations of each pokemon I've mentioned. Not that I think such guidelines are a bad thing, but perhaps we shouldn't follow them so rigidly.

I think timing Pokemon Switch will probably be one of the last things Trainers master in the metagame since you first have to have a solid mastering of all three individual pokemon. But I am just a theorycrafting amateur, so we'll see.

 

[Shaya]

Also although it's pretty late to put my foot down on it, we could afford to have a patch speculation thread to keep this place more "pure" in terms of current metagamey stuff.

Next time though.

 

[Allkings]

didn't chromicide kill the opponents first? because i did the up b on a and died first

 

[webbedspace]

Chromcide was (is) always more finicky than initially reported. On one local I saw a week back it happened on final stocks and led to Sudden Death.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

On rare occasions it can cause sudden death instead of him winning. Not entirely sure what causes it to happen. Its also possible that he didn't get as clean of a catch as he would have liked and that G&W was able to slide out to the side of the sword while getting dragged down.