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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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BunbUn129

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With regards to Meta Knight, he really enjoys the general nerfs to grab kill confirms.

He was one of the easiest characters for Bowser, DK, Robin, G&W, Marcina, and pre-nerf Sheik to kill with their throw confirms. IIRC Robin's checkmate worked at a 25% window on MK, a wider range than any other character.

Combined with his recovery still being amazing in a game where recoveries are worse, his longevity is far greater than his weight would have you believe. Quite similar to S4 Sheik: if you didn't have a reliable kill confirm or safe kill move to throw in neutral, you could count on her living for some time.
 
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ARISTOS

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Just coming to post that I am a believer in :ultfalco:

What's everyones impressions on :ultrobin::ultrobinf:? I feel they're one of the most forgotten characters in the overall community for the most part haha
They are bad.

Being slow with bad landing hitboxes are a recipe for disaster in this game and even with the increased maneuverability of Elwind they're still incredibly vulnerable off stage.

On stage, the gains made with Arcfire and Thoron do not make up for the losses in utility Arcthunder faced. Smash 4 Arcthunder was a tip top projectile that helped Robin close space, force jumps and led directly in huge punishes (that Robin needs due to low mobility/disadvantage) off a frame 11 projectile (once charged). The threat Arcthunder posed was akin to Charge Shot in scope and Arcfire neither has the range nor the speed to make up for those deficiencies.

Levin Nair is dope though
 
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Rizen

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Frame data's very important. It's not the only thing that's important for a top tier but being able to out-button opponents determines who's attacks hit first. If Snake's fastest ground and air attacks were both f7 instead of f3, he probably would have a ton of trouble vs Pichu, Peach etc and not be top tier.

IDK that heavyweights are better than they were in SSB4. They were improved but lost stupidly OP ding dong combos. In SSB4 we saw pocket DK and Bowsers used at top level. The clutch factor was huge. Don't get me wrong; I think heavyweights are good in this game too.
 

Avokha

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What's everyones impressions on :ultrobin::ultrobinf:? I feel they're one of the most forgotten characters in the overall community for the most part haha
 

ParanoidDrone

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What's everyones impressions on :ultrobin::ultrobinf:? I feel they're one of the most forgotten characters in the overall community for the most part haha
They feel...mostly the same? Like, I'm a beginner-level Robin at best, for the most part, and they did get their share of unique buffs and nerfs, but nothing so drastic that makes them all that different between games like Shulk got with his new Art wheel. Although I think they're a lot like Shulk in the sense that they have "le potential" but are unlikely to put up real results unless and until a dedicated main shows up and cleans house with them.

Visible durability meters are a godsend, BTW.

I don't think they're bad, but they're complex enough that I doubt they're viable as a high-level secondary.
 

J0eyboi

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What's everyones impressions on :ultrobin::ultrobinf:? I feel they're one of the most forgotten characters in the overall community for the most part haha
I played Robin in 4 and I do not play Robin in this game. That said, my choice not to do so was less because I think Robin's terrible and more because I hate a couple of changes in particular. Not having access to Levin Sword for the first few seconds of every match is really annoying to me, as is the fact that using the C-stick no longer guarantees Levin aerials. Not being able to Levin Nair when you're holding the Bronze Sword sucks too. None of this really affects Robin's viability in any meaningful way, but it makes him a lot less fun to play, at least IMO.
 

Terotrous

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Robin seems kind of glass cannon-y. Levin sword hits hard and reliably kills at like 110 in most situations, possibly even earlier if you get an up air hit or something, but they have bad disadvantage states that can lead to similarly early kills on them. I can't see worse than mid because I feel like there's a fair number of characters that have comparably bad disadvantage with no comparable upside, but nothing about the character feels busted.

Probably a solid doubles pick though.
 

Avokha

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They feel...mostly the same? Like, I'm a beginner-level Robin at best, for the most part, and they did get their share of unique buffs and nerfs, but nothing so drastic that makes them all that different between games like Shulk got with his new Art wheel. Although I think they're a lot like Shulk in the sense that they have "le potential" but are unlikely to put up real results unless and until a dedicated main shows up and cleans house with them.

Visible durability meters are a godsend, BTW.

I don't think they're bad, but they're complex enough that I doubt they're viable as a high-level secondary.
Not sure I'm following with the last bit there, are you saying Robin is complex enough that he can only find success at higher levels by dedicated mains and not as a mere secondary?

...Because I'm inclined to agree :p I don't have enough hands to count the number of players I've seen be inspired to play robin, only to drop him quickly due to how different he is from almost all the other characters.
 
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AxelVDP

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Kinda sucks that the meta will always and forever favor the faster characters. I was really hoping that ultimate would fix that.
I don't think you'd really want that. Almost by design heavies are supposed to be "have a harder time in neutral/disadvantage but win one interaction and bring it all the way back". If you were to have top tier heavies the game could end up feeling way to "random" and piss players off (a game is competitive when there are a lot of meaningful "interactions", a heavy by design needs the least winning interactions to beat the opponent -- in a game such as -this- smash tho heavies more or less need the same ammount of interactions as other characters as interactions in disadvantage are still interactions)

Edit: I personally think heavies' balance in this game is very good. They are all functional and useable without being "stupid"

Speaking of which (and by which I mean interactions in a broader sense), I think there's a certain bias and misconception about frame data in this thread.
You do not get a great character by simply giving him great frame data, you get a great character when his risk/reward ratio of his kit is as low as possible. Just look at Sheik for an easy example, she can win almost every interaction and still get wrecked.
This wouldn't hold true if we were robots with perfect reactions, as in that case having the better frame data would be ideal because we would not make any mistake.
But that would be a world where Little Mac would be top tier. Seeing as we're only humans though, poor Mac has to live in the bottom of the food chain.
 
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Ziodyne 21

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Regarding Super-Heavyweightd. What I though was notable about them (:4bowser::4dk:) at least was they had good to decent MU's vs most sword characters in the game. Mainly since they could challenge sword ranges with similar range and tangibility on many of their buttons, plus most swordies had to play near the range where they could be grabbed and ding-donged/koo-pahed)

I still dont exactly know in Ultimate I still belive DK and Bowser can do well vs the same characters despite losing their grab-confrims. With many sword users being dominant in the current meta, that could be a thing going for them
 
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LightLV

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Combined with his recovery still being amazing in a game where recoveries are worse, his longevity is far greater than his weight would have you believe. Quite similar to S4 Sheik: if you didn't have a reliable kill confirm or safe kill move to throw in neutral, you could count on her living for some time.
Facts. I'm constantly surprised at how good Metaknight is at surviving, especially in a game where people generally die on the bottom blast zone again. He really feels like a Smash4 character in that if you don't launch him to the blast zone, he's most likely going to come back.

That's probably the case. Why would you respect d3 when you're playing inkling? But it still something that we can learn from. But yeah I don't believe wolf is the destroyer of big bodies. Some other characters do really well vs them. I think Ness vs K rool is one of the worst MUs in the game.
D3 has plenty of high priority long range attacks that command respect.

Speaking of which (and by which I mean interactions in a broader sense), I think there's a certain bias and misconception about frame data in this thread.
You do not get a great character by simply giving him great frame data
Yeah, i've mentioned this before.

This is a really Smash-centric mindset....i think it's just a consequence of the terrible roster balance of past Smash games, specifically Smash 4. Because unlike Brawl, the characters in smash 4 had their frame data and ONLY their frame data. No advanced tech or anything to broaden them out. Characters were gated almost entirely by their frame data. If you couldn't throw out attacks or be safe on shield, you literally couldn't fight back and you couldn't combo.

Being able to determine whether a character was good or bad in Smash 4 simply by looking at their landing lag and startup frames is just proof of how shallow that game's mechanics really were.

But now that everyone is more or less on a standard playing field, frame data is about as important as it is in any other fighting game....useful for specifics of your character's moveset for offense/defense but generally just a guide. It's no longer the guide by which you judge characters viability.
 
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ParanoidDrone

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Not sure I'm following with the last bit there, are you saying Robin is complex enough that he can only find success at higher levels by dedicated mains and not as a mere secondary?

...Because I'm inclined to agree :p I don't have enough hands to count the number of players I've seen be inspired to play robin, only to drop him quickly due to how different he is from almost all the other characters.
Pretty much, yeah. He requires a fair bit of micromanagement re: item durability, regen rates, etc. that I think is unfeasible to achieve without dedicating yourself fully to the character as a main.
 

LightLV

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BTW.....Just because people keep saying it, i'm really curious and would like people to explain their thoughts lol


Can someone please explain to me why they think the heavyweights on this game are lacking? What exactly about them is causing people to doubt their future placements???


None of them are particularly "slow" and ALL of them are ridiculous on advantage. They can kill you EXTREMELY early even through trades, generally have decent range.

And something unique to Ultimate.....they all have PRACTICAL methods of breaking shields, meaning that even if they get punished on block, they're still applying pressure to you.
 

ParanoidDrone

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BTW.....Just because people keep saying it, i'm really curious and would like people to explain their thoughts lol


Can someone please explain to me why they think the heavyweights on this game are lacking? What exactly about them is causing people to doubt their future placements???


None of them are particularly "slow" and ALL of them are ridiculous on advantage. They can kill you EXTREMELY early even through trades, generally have decent range.

And something unique to Ultimate.....they all have PRACTICAL methods of breaking shields, meaning that even if they get punished on block, they're still applying pressure to you.
I think this ties into the aforementioned reliance on frame data to estimate character viability. Heavyweights generally have poor frame data outside of a few specific moves.

I'm also not certain people have fully internalized things like the universal 3-frame jump squat and weaker shields. We're still sort of collectively in a transition mindset and relying on old Smash 4 tactics and knowledge. It'll take some time before Ultimate evolves into its own thing instead of simply "Smash 4 after a giant overhaul patch."
 

Frihetsanka

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None of them are particularly "slow" and ALL of them are ridiculous on advantage. They can kill you EXTREMELY early even through trades, generally have decent range.
I assume, with "heavyweights", we're talking about Bowser, King K. Rool, Donkey Kong, King Dedede, Ganondorf, Charizard, and Incineroar?

"Slow" could mean two things: Movement speed and frame data. If we look at movement speed we see that both Ganondorf and Incinearoar are at the bottom of the cast, making them really slow (and prone to being projectile camped). King K. Rool and King Dedede are some of the slowest characters as well (with King Dedede having the worst airspeed in the game). That leaves Bowser, Donkey Kong, and Charizard, who have fairly good movement speed.

Next is frame data. These characters tend to have strong attacks with good reach, but they tend to be slow and not combo well. Bowser's fair, for instance, comes out frame 11, same as Ike's (who is considered a slow character). Bowser's f-tilt comes out frame 10, up-tilt 11, down-tilt 10. His fastest grounded normal is jab, frame 7, which is a very slow jab (up-B and side-B frame 6).

Anyway, yes, these characters are pretty slow, and while they hit hard they have flaws keeping them from becoming top tier* (and I doubt any of them are high tier either, unless they have some hidden tech not discovered yet). These characters tend to struggle vs strong projectile characters and characters who can combo them well (they're big bodies and easy to combo), they also tend to have trouble landing.

*Charizard is a bit of an exception since he can press down-B. Charizard alone would not be that great, but together with Pokémon Trainer they create a potent character.
 

LightLV

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I think this ties into the aforementioned reliance on frame data to estimate character viability. Heavyweights generally have poor frame data outside of a few specific moves.

I'm also not certain people have fully internalized things like the universal 3-frame jump squat and weaker shields. We're still sort of collectively in a transition mindset and relying on old Smash 4 tactics and knowledge. It'll take some time before Ultimate evolves into its own thing instead of simply "Smash 4 after a giant overhaul patch."
Facts, the shields in particular is why i've been rooting for heavies since the first time i touched the game. They can pressure you just by making you block attacks, something heavies haven't been able to do since.....well, since they buffed shield regen and removed shieldpush off the ledge from the game. In this game it's actually a real danger that your shield will pop.

I assume, with "heavyweights", we're talking about Bowser, King K. Rool, Donkey Kong, King Dedede, Ganondorf, Charizard, and Incineroar?

"Slow" could mean two things: Movement speed and frame data. If we look at movement speed we see that both Ganondorf and Incinearoar are at the bottom of the cast, making them really slow (and prone to being projectile camped). King K. Rool and King Dedede are some of the slowest characters as well (with King Dedede having the worst airspeed in the game). That leaves Bowser, Donkey Kong, and Charizard, who have fairly good movement speed.

Next is frame data. These characters tend to have strong attacks with good reach, but they tend to be slow and not combo well. Bowser's fair, for instance, comes out frame 11, same as Ike's (who is considered a slow character). Bowser's f-tilt comes out frame 10, up-tilt 11, down-tilt 10. His fastest grounded normal is jab, frame 7, which is a very slow jab (up-B and side-B frame 6).

Anyway, yes, these characters are pretty slow, and while they hit hard they have flaws keeping them from becoming top tier* (and I doubt any of them are high tier either, unless they have some hidden tech not discovered yet). These characters tend to struggle vs strong projectile characters and characters who can combo them well (they're big bodies and easy to combo), they also tend to have trouble landing.

*Charizard is a bit of an exception since he can press down-B. Charizard alone would not be that great, but together with Pokémon Trainer they create a potent character.


:ultbowser: -- Good movement, great range, tons of kill moves, Fire Breath deals tons of damage. Very dangerous pressure on defense, almost all of his specials are shieldeaters...and he has a fast command grab that kills reliably (especially on Battlefield), and you literally cannot block Bowser Bomb or you lose a stock.

:ultdk: -- Insane range, grab is lethal, great aerials, great smash attacks. Specials also have ridiculous range, and SideB in particular is literally a shield breaker with deceptive range (if you've blocked anything minor before blocking this, you lose a stock.) Suffers from a dangerously predictable recovery, but hey it has armor on the stage.

:ultganondorf: -- command grab that leads to tech chase, high active wizard kick (kills now), great smash attacks, aerials all kill very early. Pushes a very strong advantage and punishes mistakes harder than anyone on the game.

:ultincineroar: -- again we have a heavyweight that deals a ton of damage, kills fast, and does not allow you to defend or even roll against him. Recovery is F-tier but on the stage he really only needs to catch you once or twice.

:ultkrool: -- Probably the worst heavy on paper IMO, but he runs a really aggravating zoning game and has alot of gimmicks. Generally controls the whole pace of the match.

:ultkingdedede: -- Surprisingly decent chaser with a few really oppressive normals and a Smash4 tier recovery. Probably one of the best ledge chasers in the game.

:ultridley: -- This character rewards good spacing so well. Again we have a command grab that kills (AND gimps), highly damaging plasma breath (gimps as well), great aerials and if you get hit by tail then you're basically in kill range and can die immediately after because you're in a tech chase.

:ultcharizard: -- Bair, downB (lol)


Most of these characters don't even need combos because by the time you're at 45% you're getting launched far enough to get edge guarded, and around 60% you're in danger of being killed. Anything past about 95% and now we're talking about you getting kills from trades, and without gimping these characters can easily live until the 150-160% range.

Projectiles are a problem for them (well they're an issue for everyone on this game) but most projectile heavy characters on this game suffer from a common issue, they have trash recoveries and are generally pretty light, so the tables turn on them very fast.
 
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Frihetsanka

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L LightLV Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most of these characters (with the potential exception of King Dedede) have some serious trouble getting off ledge, as well as landing? Those downsides are pretty huge. I remember watching Smash 4 Donkey Kong and Bowser get to ledge once in a game and then having a fairly high risk of staying there until they died. That's terrible.

Ridley is lighter than Samus, so he's not really a heavy (or if he is you'd have to include a whole bunch of other characters, some of which might be top tier or high tier).
 

LightLV

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L LightLV Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most of these characters (with the potential exception of King Dedede) have some serious trouble getting off ledge, as well as landing? Those downsides are pretty huge. I remember watching Smash 4 Donkey Kong and Bowser get to ledge once in a game and then having a fairly high risk of staying there until they died. That's terrible.

Ridley is lighter than Samus, so he's not really a heavy (or if he is you'd have to include a whole bunch of other characters, some of which might be top tier or high tier).
I mean that's alot of characters though. The severity of this depends on the matchup.

I actually didnt know Ridley was so light, but he fits the "big and slow" category so i lumped him in.
 

Y2Kay

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I mean that's alot of characters though. The severity of this depends on the matchup.

I actually didnt know Ridley was so light, but he fits the "big and slow" category so i lumped him in.
Ridley has a top 10 run speed :)

His movement specs are almost identical to Charizard. He weighs the same as Ike and Wario

:150:
 

Rocketjay8

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I mean that's alot of characters though. The severity of this depends on the matchup.

I actually didnt know Ridley was so light, but he fits the "big and slow" category so i lumped him in.
Ridley is the opposite of slow, but I still call him a heavy, it feels weird to not call him one.
 

Rizen

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Speaking of which (and by which I mean interactions in a broader sense), I think there's a certain bias and misconception about frame data in this thread.
You do not get a great character by simply giving him great frame data, you get a great character when his risk/reward ratio of his kit is as low as possible.
No one said frame data is the only thing a top tier needs but it certainly is one of the things. Take SSB4 :4bowser:, he had amazing reward off grab but still ended up in upper mid-tier. Frame data is a key part of determining interactions. If a character has good startup they have an advantage in CQC. If they have low end lag they can safely throw out attacks with little risk of punishment.
Being a top tier means better than almost everyone else. You need good risk/reward and good frame data too. Like I said, Snake would have a lot more trouble with Pichu if he didn't have great frame data. Why the developers thought giving someone with his pressuring abilities an amazing CQC ground game is beyond me.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Anyone think :ultridley: is being slept on a bit. I mean an advantage state as monstrous as his in this game cannot be overlooked. His netural b and d-tilt are amazing of the best grounded ledgeguaring options and he is still strong offstage and he is basically a swordie with some of the range on his buttons. Of course his big awkward size and proportionally light weight and bad disadvantage are the big issues, but his recovery really not that bad. I say he can maybe rise to the top of mid-tier and maybe even poke into high depending on how the meta shapes
 
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Y2Kay

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Tbh If your game is decently balanced, your top tiers should be whooping on heavyweights. The most competitively viable big body in a fighting game I can think of is MVC2 Sentinel, and that character is bonkers. High Health, high damage, unblockable setups on incoming . . . easily second best character in that game.

What I'm getting at here is that you cant really seem to make big boys pretty good without them being kinda cheap and unfun to fight against.

:150:
 
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Rizen

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Anyone think :ultridley: is being slept on a bit. I mean an advantage state as monstrous as his in this game cannot be overlooked. His netural b and d-tilt are amazing of the best grounded ledgeguaring options and he is still strong offstage and he is basically a swordie with some of the range on his buttons. Of course his big awkward size and proportionally light weight and bad disadvantage are the big issues, but his recovery really not that bad. I say he can maybe rise to the top of mid-tier and maybe even poke into high depending on how the meta shapes
This match of Trela vs Meme is a good example of why I think both Ridley and Yoshi are mid tiers.
Yoshi has good pressure with the weight and mobility to back it up but struggles to end stocks. Ridley has an amazing advantage state and good power but gets crippled under pressure. Both have good sides but major flaws.
 

trickroom

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Could we please stop using online as the basis for any kind of impressions in this thread?

When you say a projectile is strong because you can't deal with it, my first thought is, is that because it's online?
When you say a kill option is good or not good because it can or can't land, my first thought is, is that because it's online?
When you say that x character is trash or "mid tier" or "top tier" because of lack of range or speed or whatever other deterring factor, my first thought is, is that because it's online?

It doesn't matter if online is all you have access to or what you play most of the time; if that's the entire basis of your impression, then find some footage to back it up, or fall back on stats. Otherwise, it's like posting your FFA impression in a 1v1 thread. And if you still think that there's value in what you're posting for others, you can qualify your post with "but this is online, so these factors may influence my impression: [factors go here]."
Regardless of what people are 'basing' their impressions on (which is often something you can't know without interrogating them or reading their mind), everyone at least understands that this thread is meant for speculation about what real-life tournaments will be. Everyone agrees that we're talking about offline, so if someone says that a projectile is good due to lack of counterplay, argue with their premise. Contradict what they're saying. Ask them to back it up with data or elaborate, and enter a dialogue about what you find important for winning games of Smash. You can't know if they were thinking of their online experience when they post, unless they say so (which is somewhat rare), so I don't see what the point of your post is. Not only that, but I don't think people say things that are only true online much anyway. The best example that comes to mind is the hype over ROB's viability, because he's broken as hell online, but that argument is actually verifiable with real-life results atm, so...?????
 
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fozzy fosbourne

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It would be interesting to develop a "secondary" tier list. As someone mentioned earlier, the traditional tier lists are typically designed around the perceived average matchups with the top tier and the perspective that you are considering this character as a main. However, for a secondary character, you might not actually care if the character outright loses half the matchups against the top tier if it has a big advantage vs several top tier picks.

Thinking about it more, I guess it would be a comparison of characters that have mostly consistent matchups vs characters with more volatile matchups. The two lists would probably be pretty similar, but a few characters might deviated that have real strong matchups based on their tools (reflectors, projectiles) vs others, especially recoveries. Characters like Snake, Palutena, Belmonts, Ness, etc have some tools that interact strongly with some characters vs others. It would probably be pretty complex to construct but if some data scientist had access to a big pool of data I bet they could come up with some interesting analysis
 
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Omastar

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Anyone think :ultridley: is being slept on a bit. I mean an advantage state as monstrous as his in this game cannot be overlooked. His netural b and d-tilt are amazing of the best grounded ledgeguaring options and he is still strong offstage and he is basically a swordie with some of the range on his buttons. Of course his big awkward size and proportionally light weight and bad disadvantage are the big issues, but his recovery really not that bad. I say he can maybe rise to the top of mid-tier and maybe even poke into high depending on how the meta shapes
Discussed on page 45 and beyond, the exact same things were said already. You can look there if you are looking for what people thought.
 
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Ziodyne 21

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Regardless of what people are 'basing' their impressions on (which is often something you can't know without interrogating them or reading their mind), everyone at least understands that this thread is meant for speculation about what real-life tournaments will be. Everyone agrees that we're talking about offline, so if someone says that a projectile is good due to lack of counterplay, argue with their premise. Contradict what they're saying. Ask them to back it up with data or elaborate, and enter a dialogue about what you find important for winning games of Smash. You can't know if they were thinking of their online experience when they post, unless they say so (which is somewhat rare), so I don't see what the point of your post is. Not only that, but I don't think people say things that are only true online much anyway. The best example that comes to mind is the hype over ROB's viability, because he's broken as hell online, but that argument is actually verifiable with real-life results atm, so...?????
Well if you want to look at results for R.O.B, WaDi has beem basically winning every tournament he has participated in the past two or threw weeks using just and the character has been getting decent placings with other players as well.

Here are some examples of WaDi's R.O.B is capable of

https://youtu.be/qi_0dZhofFE.

https://youtu.be/edKkU733j2Y

https://youtu.be/KcQV0vyV06I
 
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fozzy fosbourne

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Well if you want to look at results for R.O.B, WaDi has beem basically winning every tournament he has participated in the past two or threw weeks using just and the character has been getting decent placings with other players as well.

Here are some examples of WaDi's R.O.B is capable of

https://youtu.be/qi_0dZhofFE.

https://youtu.be/edKkU733j2Y

https://youtu.be/KcQV0vyV06I
It will be interesting to see how he does at Glitch this weekend with some out of state competition. Definitely looking forward to that.
 

Envoy of Chaos

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Question: Why are people claiming swords are the big thing in the metagame right now?

When I look at the characters being considered to be really strong right now it's not full of sword characters.

:ultmarth::ultlucina::ultroy::ultchrom::ultcloud: Are the only five that I've seen generally considered to be really strong characters that are in the swordie archetype and it's only five rather than three because Marth and Roy got some parameter and move changes (Yes I am well aware of the impact those changes have how you play Lucina and Chrom but when compared to who they are based off the general gameplay is not that much different)

:ultike:- Gets a lot of hype but I don't consistently see people say he's one of the best

:ultmewtwo:- While still being a semi-swordsman he gained hurtboxes on his tail that lessen the "sword" attribute of his moves that use it and more emphasis as those moves being long reaching moves (If I am wrong about this please correct me but I do recall seeing this posted that his tail hurtbox was lengthen) and please remember long reach does not equal sword.

That's it, the rest of the characters I've seen people consistently consider very strong right now being
:ultfox::ultinkling::ultmegaman::ultolimar::ultpalutena::ultpeach::ultdaisy::ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultrob::ultsnake::ultwolf::ultsonic:

All of whom are not in the sword type archetype. The closest thing in this group is Palutena but she doesn't play like the sword archetype does. That's five characters compared to twelve (if you combine Peach and Daisy and you should) That doesn't seem like they are dominant to me. This of course is open to debate based off who you consider to be really strong in this game (I personally would add and take out a few characters) but from what I've seen from others this is generally what I've noticed.
 

Y2Kay

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Well by quantity alone yeah swords aren’t dominating the meta but when have six different sword fighters who are in the running, if not already, top 15 in the meta your aren’t wrong for saying swords are strong in this game.

:150:
 

Envoy of Chaos

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Strong for sure but I don't know about dominating. Lucina and Chrom being directly based off already really strong characters sorta "inflates" the number. I will say there are more swordies that are considered good in this game than their are not as great.
 

williamsga555

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most of these characters (with the potential exception of King Dedede) have some serious trouble getting off ledge, as well as landing?
Eh, it's looking like ledge getups aren't as damning as they were in 4 (at least, thus far in the all-too-early Ultimate meta). I think the big kicker is the buff to getup attack, which is now an option that must be more respected due to the nerf to shield grabbing and the high amount of invincibility on it. Some characters will still struggle a bit to reset, but I'd be shocked if anyone is as doomed on the ledge as DK was in 4.

As for landing, it depends. The general shift towards offense in Ultimate means landing is more difficult for most characters, in theory, but the addition of directional air dodging gives an immediate escape option that should work against most of the cast...until you run into the likes of, say, Fox of course.

Oh, and D3 is kind of neutral in terms of getting off the ledge. On the one hand, he can still shark for up air nicely, but on the other hand, it's difficult/impractical to release ledge→jump on stage since his multijumps are so short. If he could release→jump→inhale/fair on stage he'd have a great mixup for recovering, but alas...
 
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Deathcarter

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Question: Why are people claiming swords are the big thing in the metagame right now?

When I look at the characters being considered to be really strong right now it's not full of sword characters.

:ultmarth::ultlucina::ultroy::ultchrom::ultcloud: Are the only five that I've seen generally considered to be really strong characters that are in the swordie archetype and it's only five rather than three because Marth and Roy got some parameter and move changes (Yes I am well aware of the impact those changes have how you play Lucina and Chrom but when compared to who they are based off the general gameplay is not that much different)

:ultike:- Gets a lot of hype but I don't consistently see people say he's one of the best

:ultmewtwo:- While still being a semi-swordsman he gained hurtboxes on his tail that lessen the "sword" attribute of his moves that use it and more emphasis as those moves being long reaching moves (If I am wrong about this please correct me but I do recall seeing this posted that his tail hurtbox was lengthen) and please remember long reach does not equal sword.

That's it, the rest of the characters I've seen people consistently consider very strong right now being
:ultfox::ultinkling::ultmegaman::ultolimar::ultpalutena::ultpeach::ultdaisy::ultpichu::ultpikachu::ultrob::ultsnake::ultwolf::ultsonic:

All of whom are not in the sword type archetype. The closest thing in this group is Palutena but she doesn't play like the sword archetype does. That's five characters compared to twelve (if you combine Peach and Daisy and you should) That doesn't seem like they are dominant to me. This of course is open to debate based off who you consider to be really strong in this game (I personally would add and take out a few characters) but from what I've seen from others this is generally what I've noticed.
I mean even discounting Marth and Roy for redundancy you just named three characters who are regularly placed in Top Tier + one who's almost always placed in High (not to mention took a major) and all four of them + Roy have regular tournament placings if the Tournament Results thread is anything to go by. They aren't at the absolute top in results like Wolf/Inkling/Palutena/Fox but swordies are definitely widespread and strong characters overall at the moment.
 

trickroom

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Question: Why are people claiming swords are the big thing in the metagame right now?

When I look at the characters being considered to be really strong right now it's not full of sword characters.

:ultmarth::ultlucina::ultroy::ultchrom::ultcloud: Are the only five that I've seen generally considered to be really strong characters that are in the swordie archetype and it's only five rather than three because Marth and Roy got some parameter and move changes (Yes I am well aware of the impact those changes have how you play Lucina and Chrom but when compared to who they are based off the general gameplay is not that much different)
You're right -- people shouldn't, and that's why most of us don't use the 'swords are the meta' line anymore. The concept of it is more or less a holdover from when everyone thought Chrom and Roy were top 2 characters. It's also kind of a weird generalization to put out there in the first place, because it implies that every sword has similar strengths and weaknesses which we know is not true. Roy and Lucina are different beasts, and their differences heavily affect how well characters do against them. There are definitely a ton of characters with 6:4s against Chroy and 4:6s against Lucina, and so on.

In the interest of fairness to the counterargument, though, it's worth mentioning that Shulk is also a swordie considered by many to be very strong.
 
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MapleBeasts

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That's because people keep looking at the wrong frame data in speed, and forget everything else.

When it comes to how fast the hitbox comes out, hitbox size, disjoint, knockback, damage, safety and lag, a lot of people choose to focus on the least important aspect in speed. The others are all far more important.

MK wasn't the best character in brawl because his frame data was obscene, it was because all of those other aspects were high. The speed just made it over the top. You only have to look at olimar to see the same thing where he had almost no quick attacks and his movement speed was poor, but that was completely irrelevant as all other aspects were so high. Characters like Mario also have extremely good frame data but they'll lose to sword users who are slower on literally every single attack.

I find it funny when people are like OMG JOKERS FRAME DATA IS SO GOOD HES GONNA BE BUSTED and I'm like "Let me introduce you to ultimate sheik"
This is a little disingenuous. Speed absolutely matters, as does every other factor you've brought up. The problem with Sheik in this game has more to do with how terrible she is at killing. She was S tier in Sm4sh for the sole fact that she could back up her combo game and frame data with viable kill options.
 

Nobie

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One thing that fascinates me is how many bad-against-swords characters are still doing okay in the current meta. I'm mainly thinking of Yoshi and Wario, but there are others too.

Early Smash 4 was actually a poor environment for swords. People thought Marth was mid tier at best. Then they buffed Marth. Then they buffed Lucina. Then they added Cloud. And Corrin. I think the loss of Yoshi's now-joked-about "potential" was less a poor prediction and more about the very landscape changing. The rise of swords correlates with the fall of Yoshi.

But in this game, despite the fact that multiple swords are considered high or top tier, these stubby characters are making an impact. Just what has changed about interactions between swords and stubby non-swords that's letting both thrive? Have the developers finally found the right balance between speed, range, and reward?
 

MG_3989

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Is anybody else annoyed at the fact that almost every super heavy weight has a command grab? I mean it’s not like I can’t play around it, I can, but having to watch out for it the whole game is super annoying. I know you really shouldn’t be shielding too much against them anyway and I try to stay in the air against characters like Ganon and Ridley for this reason but it’s still annoying. I know it’s nothing game breaking or meta defining and heavies generally don’t have as many tools as other characters but I still find command grabs super annoying. Is this just a me thing or do other people share this opinion?
 

J0eyboi

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This exists now.
 
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