Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Omastar]

Y'know what they say, speed kills huehuehue

 

[Deleted member]

Y'know what they say, speed kills huehuehue

Tell that to King K rool

 

[Condenir]

So, I’ve been lurking and I’m attempting to become better at smash and I’ve loved playing as Palutena since smash 4...

So I’m just wondering who are some of her worst matchups and best ways to deal with them?

I personally think inklings, ness, Pichu, squirtle all kind of give her some troubles...anyone small and fast, I might be off tho. Would love some opinions

 

[ZephyrZ]

There was no way Ultimate would "fix that" nor does it need to, imo (especially since speedy characters aren't that problematic in this game / they tend to be more skill intensive than heavies)

That second reason might serve to still make heavies good secondary picks even if they don't dominate the tier list. I think a lot of players used DK / Bowser as secondary or pocket characters back in Smash 4 and while those two have lost their busted combos they still are powerful enough in other ways to possibly justify picking up if you have strong fundamentals. Pocket swordies will still probably be more popular for similar reasons but hey, you could always get the best of both worlds and play Ridley or Ike.

 

[Deleted member]

So, I’ve been lurking and I’m attempting to become better at smash and I’ve loved playing as Palutena since smash 4...

So I’m just wondering who are some of her worst matchups and best ways to deal with them?

I personally think inklings, ness, Pichu, squirtle all kind of give her some troubles...anyone small and fast, I might be off tho. Would love some opinions

Palutena is a Heavy slayer because her spacing is stupid good her best match ups are heavys duh...
And slow landing characters but she has a hard time with the current top tier characters Pichu and Pikachu eat her for breakfast because they can rush her well enough where her projectiles are rendered useless Inkling and Chrom are the same deal.
But she does have good quality Mu's against Ness and Peach

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I think we are kind of overrating heavies at the moment. It's clear to me that, yet again, the meta is shifting towards characters who give heavies a hard time. Just look at who the hot topics are right now. Inkling, Lucina, the thunder rats, Palutena, Peach, Wolf, Young Link and Chrom are the first that come to mind.

Lucy isn't too bad. Her disjoints are a problem but they're a problem for anyone who can't match them, but they can at least be played around with patient play. You'd think Peach and the rats would win easily because of their combos and solid projectiles, but these strengths are offset by their weight and range. Fighting those characters with a heavy feels fair imo, and I felt that way with them in Smash 4 as well. I'm not sure how I feel about Chrom but its harder to patiently play around his disjoints when he's rushing you down.

Inkling, Palutena, Young Link and Wolf however are everywhere and destroy heavyweights. I've seen it stated that Autoreticle / ES aren't exceptional zoning tools but when you're a big bodied heavy they are a pain to deal with. Inkling, YLink and Wolf meanwhile have zero issues out maneuvering heavies with their incredible air mobility and camping them out. Sure some of them might struggle to kill but they can afford that when their heavyweight opponent is struggling almost just as hard to even land a hit.

That's a good handful of difficult and relevant match ups, and none that I'd argue are wins. Yeah matchups are going to very by character but generally heavies struggle with the same overall weaknesses and those weaknesses are very relevant right now. If the meta continues heading in the direction it is now I don't see the likes of Bowser and DK dominating. They'll probably remain viable to some degree, sure, but how much does that really mean when almost the entire roster feels that way? I love heavies but I'll be surprised if any end up ranked higher then high-mid tier once the meta has settled.

I wouldn't say the destroy heavies at least not from what I've seen. As I said before the heavyweights have real staying power in this game. Also the parry mechanic is going to help a lot. A lot of times these characters will struggle to end stocks so you're going to have to deal with rage on a character you struggle to kill while they kill you at 110. I'll post up some videos if you want of heavyweights VS these MUs. They definitely can keep up.

Palu may give them the most trouble. The rest is more than doable.

 

[KamikazePotato]

Heavies will never be buffed to Top Tier Competitive status because Smash has to balance for casual play as well. If you make Bowser even faster or stronger than he already is, he's going to obliterate free for alls. Heck, he already does when compared to someone like, say, Diddy Kong. Heavies in Ultimate are already really strong when you consider this - I think they're very viable in Ultimate competitive play.

 

[LightLV]

Kinda sucks that the meta will always and forever favor the faster characters. I was really hoping that ultimate would fix that.

to be fair...that's generally every fighting game. Characters who shut down options with speed are almost always gonna be good.

I feel like this Smash game though has done a very good job of balancing out their weight disadvantage though, I think it's more noticeable in Ultimate than it's ever been before.

The only fast character that really grinds me on this game is Inkling, but that's less to do with their speed and more with the fact that the animations mix you up almost more than the character itself does, and they have a very good recovery for how dominating they can be on the stage.

I mean he is still designed as a bait and punish character, while you won't be challenging too many moves, his frame data is good. Fsmash is just as spammable as it was in sm4sh due low end lag, which allows for some creativity. While SL and cape have average knockback, drill and nado knockback knockback is good. If you are getting punished on these while hitting your opponent, then your throwing them out way too early, they aren't neutral tools.

DA, Nair, Fair, Dtilt, Grab are your combo starters, Fsmash is safe in neutral, RAR Bair kills, and sliding Ftilt are also nice. Essentially you are going to be dancing with your opponent and falling on top of their misses.

Yeah i've realized ive been playing him wrong, I was trying to play him like Brawl metaknight but he's too different. His buttons really take getting used to, they have almost no actives so you have to really know where you're swinging before you do it.

Okay so just like with and magnet, i feel like learning that you can use dimension cape in neutral really changed my outlook on him, it has surprisingly little lag and people have had real trouble trying to punish him. Also the fact that ALL of his special moves double as kill moves gives him crazy kill potential...like when he's on advantage you're literally in danger of dying at any %, this character punishes bad recoveries ridiculously hard. I understand why they changed his buttons the way they did. He's able to fight off the stage like he's playing Smash 4.

I dropped all the way to like 80k with him earlier this morning trying to understand him, but i just got him to Elite a few minutes ago, so i guess i'm gonna work on a different character now.

Take it back, is far from the worst character in this game.....in fact i think im gonna label him sleeper tier because of how easily he can turn a match in a game where edgeguarding is actually a thing.


on the other hand.....my opinion hasn't changed very much. Kirby is HOT garbage.

Heavies will never be buffed to Top Tier Competitive status because Smash has to balance for casual play as well. If you make Bowser even faster or stronger than he already is, he's going to obliterate free for alls. Heck, he already does when compared to someone like, say, Diddy Kong. Heavies in Ultimate are already really strong when you consider this - I think they're very viable in Ultimate competitive play.

Heavies have always dominated free for all.

 

[Ghidorah14]

I should've been more clear. I didn't mean "fix" as in buff them to make them as fast a the rest of the cast. I meant that I was hoping we'd see more heavy characters placing higher in tournaments and tier lists. Right now, it's pretty much just DK and the odd bowser.

 

[Deleted member]

Heavies will never be buffed to Top Tier Competitive status because Smash has to balance for casual play as well. If you make Bowser even faster or stronger than he already is, he's going to obliterate free for alls. Heck, he already does when compared to someone like, say, Diddy Kong. Heavies in Ultimate are already really strong when you consider this - I think they're very viable in Ultimate competitive play.

Heavy's will never be top tier in this game because they get combed and juggled to much it is the sad simple truth

 

[LightLV]

Heavy's will never be top tier in this game because they get combed and juggled to much it is the sad simple truth

That's always been true of heavies though.

But this is the first game where they consistently murder you at sub 60% and can actually move.

I dont think heavies have nearly as much of a disadvantage on this game as people think they do.

 

[Deleted member]

That's always been true of heavies though.

But this is the first game where they consistently murder you at sub 60% and can actually move.

I dont think heavies have nearly as much of a disadvantage on this game as people think they do.

But you can't be top tier and consistently get shredded by 20% of the roster

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I should've been more clear. I didn't mean "fix" as in buff them to make them as fast a the rest of the cast. I meant that I was hoping we'd see more heavy characters placing higher in tournaments and tier lists. Right now, it's pretty much just DK and the odd bowser.

D3 places pretty well and I believe Big D dominates his scene.

Heavy's will never be top tier in this game because they get combed and juggled to much it is the sad simple truth

So when heavies are no longer at the percentage where your combo works thrn what? If these damaging combos lead to kills then I'd agree with you. But just tacking on percentage isn't enough. You need to be able to consistently and easily take their stock otherwise they'll live to 160+

 

[LightLV]

But you can't be top tier and consistently get shredded by 20% of the roster

I dont really see where heavies are getting "shredded" any more than any other character on this game.

Did we just completely forget that a recent major had a Ganondorf in grand finals?

 

[Ajani]

The more I get experienced with this game, the more I realize that frame data is not a clear explanation for tier placements.

Something simple as looking at Ikes data at first glance doesn't look to top tier. Then you examine his spacing , hit box, transitions and sprinkle in a tad MKLeo, is a recipe for top tier.

As a main, I **** on him for his frame data but seeing how Jeda (wanted) and Tsu (Japanese tourneys) exploit him makes me realize how little I truly know about this game.

 

[Rocketjay8]

I dont really see where heavies are getting "shredded" any more than any other character on this game.

Did we just completely forget that a recent major had a Ganondorf in grand finals?

Seriously?! I want to see this.

 

[LightLV]

The more I get experienced with this game, the more I realize that frame data is not a clear explanation for tier placements.

It never should have been. TBH Smash is the only game where frame data has mattered this much.

It's only because the roster was so horribly unbalanced. Some characters literally didn't have the basic frame data to compete with others.

 

[Ajani]

It never should have been. TBH Smash is the only game where frame data has mattered this much.

It's only because the roster was so horribly unbalanced. Some characters literally didn't have the basic frame data to compete with others.

Yea Ill be honest, Im going to take a back seat and keep learning. Unless theres a Lucario discussion, I dont feel comfortable giving advise. To much to learn still.

 

[NairWizard]

Could we please stop using online as the basis for any kind of impressions in this thread?

It's so completely different from offline play as to be completely irrelevant. I don't gain a single thing when I read an impressions post from a poster who is basing impressions on online modes. Literally completely zero.

low-lag connections don't make the online mode more like offline play.

Consider that Ultimate has 6 (? I think it's 6) frames of input delay programmed into the game engine; this makes it vastly different from what it would be if the same game had 0 frames of input delay programmed in, and even more vastly different from how the game would be with 12. Online adds at a minimum 4 (?) additional frames of delay. The game is completely different online. Completely.

When you say a projectile is strong because you can't deal with it, my first thought is, is that because it's online?
When you say a kill option is good or not good because it can or can't land, my first thought is, is that because it's online?
When you say that x character is trash or "mid tier" or "top tier" because of lack of range or speed or whatever other deterring factor, my first thought is, is that because it's online?

It doesn't matter if online is all you have access to or what you play most of the time; if that's the entire basis of your impression, then find some footage to back it up, or fall back on stats. Otherwise, it's like posting your FFA impression in a 1v1 thread. And if you still think that there's value in what you're posting for others, you can qualify your post with "but this is online, so these factors may influence my impression: [factors go here]."

 

[Deleted member]

Yea Ill be honest, Im going to take a back seat and keep learning. Unless theres a Lucario discussion, I dont feel comfortable giving advise. To much to learn still.

No one really is qualified to give advice at this point us being wrong is one of the reasons why the early meta shouldn't be taken seriously

 

[TTTTTsd]

Could we please stop using online as the basis for any kind of impressions in this thread?

It's so completely different from offline play as to be completely irrelevant. I don't gain a single thing when I read an impressions post from a poster who is basing impressions on online modes. Literally completely zero.

low-lag connections don't make the online mode more like offline play.

Consider that Ultimate has 6 (? I think it's 6) frames of input delay programmed into the game engine; this makes it vastly different from what it would be if the same game had 0 frames of input delay programmed in, and even more vastly different from how the game would be with 12. Online adds at a minimum 4 (?) additional frames of delay. The game is completely different online. Completely.

When you say a projectile is strong because you can't deal with it, my first thought is, is that because it's online?
When you say a kill option is good or not good because it can or can't land, my first thought is, is that because it's online?
When you say that x character is trash or "mid tier" or "top tier" because of lack of range or speed or whatever other deterring factor, my first thought is, is that because it's online?

It doesn't matter if online is all you have access to or what you play most of the time; if that's the entire basis of your impression, then find some footage to back it up, or fall back on stats. Otherwise, it's like posting your FFA impression in a 1v1 thread. And if you still think that there's value in what you're posting for others, you can qualify your post with "but this is online, so these factors may influence my impression: [factors go here]."

Shouldn't be adding 4 frames unless its a really laggy connection. Online frames fluctuate, but generally if your connection is ok its usually adding 3 frames at most, but usually 1-2 for low ping connections. At least if I'm to base it off of other games that also use delay based netcode as this one does, and not rollback.

I've been grinding with a friend in NY since I have a great connection w/ him and it feels REALLY close to offline, a bit diff but generally its suitable. We do take it with a grain of salt and I think its WORTH mentioning if you play online to get a certain impression, but there are definitely merits to wifi if you live in close enough proximity to actually get a good connection.

If it was adding 4 frames at minimum I would notice while I played, trust me.

 

[J0eyboi]

Shouldn't be adding 4 frames unless its a really laggy connection. Online frames fluctuate, but generally if your connection is ok its usually adding 3 frames at most. At least if I'm to base it off of other games that also use delay based netcode as this one does, and not rollback.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am saying that it's not wise to underestimate the ****tiness of Nintendo's online.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am saying that it's not wise to underestimate the ****tiness of Nintendo's online.

I can only base it on what I know but it definitely does not feel, quantifiably, like 4 frames of additional lag has been added to the game. If someone did the science and proves me wrong, all the better, but I think I'd definitely notice if the game was adding 4 minimum (on like, a best case scenario)

 

[LightLV]

Seriously?! I want to see this.

well i dont know if they were "majors" but here we go

https://youtu.be/nxHNFXx-waE -- Smokk (Ganon) vs Ally (Snake)

https://youtu.be/-oPkQfLPAm8 -- Trela (Ridley) vs Awestin (Ness)

There's really been no shortage of heavy representation so far.

 

[Deleted member]

Could we please stop using online as the basis for any kind of impressions in this thread?

It's so completely different from offline play as to be completely irrelevant. I don't gain a single thing when I read an impressions post from a poster who is basing impressions on online modes. Literally completely zero.

low-lag connections don't make the online mode more like offline play.

Consider that Ultimate has 6 (? I think it's 6) frames of input delay programmed into the game engine; this makes it vastly different from what it would be if the same game had 0 frames of input delay programmed in, and even more vastly different from how the game would be with 12. Online adds at a minimum 4 (?) additional frames of delay. The game is completely different online. Completely.

When you say a projectile is strong because you can't deal with it, my first thought is, is that because it's online?
When you say a kill option is good or not good because it can or can't land, my first thought is, is that because it's online?
When you say that x character is trash or "mid tier" or "top tier" because of lack of range or speed or whatever other deterring factor, my first thought is, is that because it's online?

It doesn't matter if online is all you have access to or what you play most of the time; if that's the entire basis of your impression, then find some footage to back it up, or fall back on stats. Otherwise, it's like posting your FFA impression in a 1v1 thread. And if you still think that there's value in what you're posting for others, you can qualify your post with "but this is online, so these factors may influence my impression: [factors go here]."

Sorry to tell you this but everything is going to be based on online because this has been a Tier list speculation thread basically and offline isn't really competitive tbh....

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Sorry to tell you this but everything is going to be based on online because this has been a Tier list speculation thread basically and offline isn't really competitive tbh....

..... what?

 

[Deleted member]

..... what?

Um what about it seems to baffle you so much just to be clear i am counting tournament's as online because he seems like he wants to talk about how different characters do against CPUs but could just be misreading i do it a lot

 

[LightLV]

Could we please stop using online as the basis for any kind of impressions in this thread?

It's so completely different from offline play as to be completely irrelevant. I don't gain a single thing when I read an impressions post from a poster who is basing impressions on online modes. Literally completely zero.

low-lag connections don't make the online mode more like offline play.

Consider that Ultimate has 6 (? I think it's 6) frames of input delay programmed into the game engine; this makes it vastly different from what it would be if the same game had 0 frames of input delay programmed in, and even more vastly different from how the game would be with 12. Online adds at a minimum 4 (?) additional frames of delay. The game is completely different online. Completely.

When you say a projectile is strong because you can't deal with it, my first thought is, is that because it's online?
When you say a kill option is good or not good because it can or can't land, my first thought is, is that because it's online?
When you say that x character is trash or "mid tier" or "top tier" because of lack of range or speed or whatever other deterring factor, my first thought is, is that because it's online?

It doesn't matter if online is all you have access to or what you play most of the time; if that's the entire basis of your impression, then find some footage to back it up, or fall back on stats. Otherwise, it's like posting your FFA impression in a 1v1 thread. And if you still think that there's value in what you're posting for others, you can qualify your post with "but this is online, so these factors may influence my impression: [factors go here]."

Every game goes through this and Online is always going to be the best source of exposure for people.

It's up to you to know whether or not your stuff works online.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Um what about it seems to baffle you so much just to be clear i am counting tournament's as online because he seems like he wants to talk about how different characters do against CPUs but could just be misreading i do it a lot

You're misreading what he's saying. Also please don't label tournaments as online that's ridiculous. Just a little tip nobody considering offline play to be against cpus and nobody is suggesting that.

 

[J0eyboi]

Um what about it seems to baffle you so much just to be clear i am counting tournament's as online because he seems like he wants to talk about how different characters do against CPUs but could just be misreading i do it a lot

That is entirely not what online means. Offline is how most tournaments are played. No one gives a **** about vs CPUs, but no one was talking about vs CPUs.

 

[Browny]

The more I get experienced with this game, the more I realize that frame data is not a clear explanation for tier placements.

Something simple as looking at Ikes data at first glance doesn't look to top tier. Then you examine his spacing , hit box, transitions and sprinkle in a tad MKLeo, is a recipe for top tier.

As a main, I **** on him for his frame data but seeing how Jeda (wanted) and Tsu (Japanese tourneys) exploit him makes me realize how little I truly know about this game.

That's because people keep looking at the wrong frame data in speed, and forget everything else.

When it comes to how fast the hitbox comes out, hitbox size, disjoint, knockback, damage, safety and lag, a lot of people choose to focus on the least important aspect in speed. The others are all far more important.

MK wasn't the best character in brawl because his frame data was obscene, it was because all of those other aspects were high. The speed just made it over the top. You only have to look at olimar to see the same thing where he had almost no quick attacks and his movement speed was poor, but that was completely irrelevant as all other aspects were so high. Characters like Mario also have extremely good frame data but they'll lose to sword users who are slower on literally every single attack.

I find it funny when people are like OMG JOKERS FRAME DATA IS SO GOOD HES GONNA BE BUSTED and I'm like "Let me introduce you to ultimate sheik"

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Online adds at a minimum 4 (?) additional frames of delay.

Uh do you have a source for this? That’s like 64 ms of delay. I get a 64 ms ping all the way from the west coast to the east coast on fiber, lol.

 

[Deleted member]

O well im stupid so ignore everything i have said about this topic

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

That's because people keep looking at the wrong frame data in speed, and forget everything else.

When it comes to how fast the hitbox comes out, hitbox size, disjoint, knockback, damage, safety and lag, a lot of people choose to focus on the least important aspect in speed. The others are all far more important.

MK wasn't the best character in brawl because his frame data was obscene, it was because all of those other aspects were high. The speed just made it over the top. You only have to look at olimar to see the same thing where he had almost no quick attacks and his movement speed was poor, but that was completely irrelevant as all other aspects were so high. Characters like Mario also have extremely good frame data but they'll lose to sword users who are slower on literally every single attack.

I find it funny when people are like OMG JOKERS FRAME DATA IS SO GOOD HES GONNA BE BUSTED and I'm like "Let me introduce you to ultimate sheik"

Speed is definitely an important factor that's why I bring it up. If MK's dtilt was frame 7 or higher it'd be a mediocre at best option. Range is important but if you don't have the frame data to back uo your range it's meaning sm4sh shulk is a perfect example. When we look at a characters tools and think about speed it's extremely important everything else can come later then we can worry about range spacing effective zones and all that good stuff. In a game where people just want to run around and press buttons you're going to want to have fast options.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I wouldn't say the destroy heavies at least not from what I've seen. As I said before the heavyweights have real staying power in this game. Also the parry mechanic is going to help a lot. A lot of times these characters will struggle to end stocks so you're going to have to deal with rage on a character you struggle to kill while they kill you at 110. I'll post up some videos if you want of heavyweights VS these MUs. They definitely can keep up.

Palu may give them the most trouble. The rest is more than doable.

I'll admit that heavies don't lose their bad match ups as bad as they used to. The new game mechanics benefiting more aggressive play really helps them, and a lot of old threats (Sheik, Zamus) struggle more at killing them then they used to. I'm not saying they're all doomed to sink down to low tier. But I still think that they still have more "bad" then "good" matchups and that playing a heavy will more of an uphill battle overall. I'll admit that maybe I'm suffering from the syndrome that causes people to be harsher on their own mains though, and maybe I'm projecting some of my frustrations with Charizard onto DK and Bowser.

Go ahead and post your videos though, I'd be more then happy to be proven wrong and even if not that I still enjoy seeing heavyweights do work. I just looked up Bowser gameplay on Youtube I found some impressive footage of Static's Bowser at a launch tournament, but I also feel like he was really benefiting from Wolf/Inkling players I watched him fight not really fully understanding their mains nor the match up yet.

Also what exactly does parrying do for them that the old version of perfect shielding didn't?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'll admit that heavies don't lose their bad match ups as bad as they used to. The new game mechanics benefiting more aggressive play really helps them, and a lot of old threats (Sheik, Zamus) struggle more at killing them then they used to. I'm not saying they're all doomed to sink down to low tier. But I still think that they still have more "bad" then "good" matchups and that playing a heavy will more of an uphill battle overall. I'll admit that maybe I'm suffering from the syndrome that causes people to be harsher on their own mains though, and maybe I'm projecting some of my frustrations with Charizard onto DK and Bowser.

Go ahead and post your videos though, I'd be more then happy to be proven wrong and even if not that I still enjoy seeing heavyweights do work. I just looked up Bowser gameplay on Youtube I found some impressive footage of Static's Bowser at a launch tournament, but I also feel like he was really benefiting from Wolf/Inkling players I watched him fight not really fully understanding their mains nor the match up yet.

Also what exactly does parrying do for them that the old version of perfect shielding didn't?

The way I interpret parrying is that it'll allow you to get frame advantage and punish things you're not normally able to. So if you can cut down the pressure on your shield you'll be able to punish more stuff. Also if I'm interpreting this wrong the I apologize.

DK vs peach

https://youtu.be/kgBlXvRERZU


D3 vs inkling


https://youtu.be/T2LWpoRWqGU

D3 vs wolf

https://youtu.be/Pba6I7uU2Rs


https://youtu.be/_KLLvkp4e24

https://youtu.be/s2QOW0Rm5Y8

Bowser vs wolf

https://youtu.be/1VELN1ebVkA

It just kinda worked out that a lot of these were vs wolf. The big D vid was vs inkling and he plays another inkling in grands.


A

 

[Browny]

D3 vs wolf

https://youtu.be/Pba6I7uU2Rs

Aint no one gonna tell me this game isn't closest to brawl lmao. That match was horrible to watch. 100% top-level optimal play, but horrible.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Aint no one gonna tell me this game isn't closest to brawl lmao. That match was horrible to watch. 100% top-level optimal play, but horrible.

In what way? Because I'm pretty sure d3 had an infinite on wolf but I digress. Go ahead and talk about characters that aren't combo heavy are playing out the neutral. Yawn.

 

[ZephyrZ]

D3 vs inkling


https://youtu.be/T2LWpoRWqGU

Oof I was wincing at the Inkling in that match. I mean I'm not going to pretend like I'm a better player then them but they were clearly not giving Dedede the proper respect and going for a lot of unsafe aggression.

Bowser vs wolf

https://youtu.be/1VELN1ebVkA

Now this is on the other hand was the type of high level play I like to see.

I feel like Wolf was a little greedy at some points and should have played a little lamer to hold his lead in game 3, but I'm starting to warm up to the idea that Wolf's matchup against heavies isn't really that bad. These videos do kind of show how Wolf's limited offstage game and linear, predictable (although still very good) projectile make him less of a pain to deal with compared to some other zoners. I still think he wins that match up though since he can just get a huge % advantage if he plays really lame after getting a stock lead, but I suppose getting that stock lead with that kill power is easier said then done.

Aint no one gonna tell me this game isn't closest to brawl lmao. That match was horrible to watch. 100% top-level optimal play, but horrible.

No mentioning that DK and Daisy match which was a constant back and forth of pressure and combos? Instead you just single out a match between a zoner with poor kill options fighting one of the heaviest, campiest characters in the game for being slow?

Okay.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Oof I was wincing at the Inkling in that match. I mean I'm not going to pretend like I'm a better player then them but they were clearly not giving Dedede the proper respect and going for a lot of unsafe aggression.

Now this is on the other hand was the type of high level play I like to see.

I feel like Wolf was a little greedy at some points and should have played a little lamer to hold his lead in game 3, but I'm starting to warm up to the idea that Wolf's matchup against heavies isn't really that bad. These videos do kind of show how Wolf's limited offstage game and linear, predictable (although still very good) projectile make him less of a pain to deal with compared to some other zoners. I still think he wins that match up though since he can just get a huge % advantage if he plays really lame after getting a stock lead, but I suppose getting that stock lead with that kill power is easier said then done.
No mentioning that DK and Daisy match which was a constant back and forth of pressure and combos? Instead you just single out a match between a zoner with poor kill options fighting one of the heaviest, campiest characters in the game for being slow?

Okay.

That's probably the case. Why would you respect d3 when you're playing inkling? But it still something that we can learn from. But yeah I don't believe wolf is the destroyer of big bodies. Some other characters do really well vs them. I think Ness vs K rool is one of the worst MUs in the game.