Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[williamsga555]

You mean YL? Even in terms of raw options, YL's not too bad off. Fair and Dair are hard to punish and Dsmash is f9, only 1 frame later than Dtilt (but laggier).

Yeah whoops, meant YL.

Yeah, fair and dair aren't terrible options. Dsmash seems okay to me, but certainly isn't particularly scary. But again, I'm not convinced that lack of raw options is all that damning...it certainly wasn't back in 4 even with the stronger rage mechanic, so I can't foresee YL truly struggling because of it.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Saying they suck was too far but have they had any results? I think with a ton of work and tech, Ken can be above average but hardly seems worth it at the competitive level.

Why do you deem him unworthy at a competitive level? What kinda results are you looking for local level? National level? If it's locals then he's showing up. National level it'll take time ken and ryu are complex characters. Anyways ypu can check out venom of you want to aee some ken play.

 

[PK Gaming]

“Ike’s Nair is overturned.”

Man, everything looks overtuned when it gets wide exposure from one of the best players in the world in a month old meta with 74 characters.

Like, yeah, if Ike’s Nair resists legit counterplay and he turns into Ultimate ZSS - with a sword - in a year, yeah, okay, it’s an over centralizing move.

You wanna know what else looks over centralizing? Float.

Peach gets that fullhop damage at short hop levels.

I get your reasoning, but I feel it's disingenuous to open with "this move looks OP in the hands of a pro" when players have expressed their dissatisfaction with the move prior to this weekend.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Also, the problem with Nair isn't that there's no counterplay against it (far from it, we saw Samsora slowly start work around the move before getting abruptly KOd). The issue with move that itsself is too good relative to Ike's entire moveset. Nair is an approach tool, a kill confirm, a punish tool, a combo move, a mixup tool and is completely safe.

I'm not making this point as someone who dislikes Ike (far from it, he's currently my favorite FE lord) but Ike deserves better than having his moveset revolve around a single move. And if they do happen to nerf Nair, I think he should receive appropriate buffs as compensation.

The goal isn't to make him worse, it's to make him have more depth as a character.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Ike’s nair is the glue that holds his kit together. Let the meta develop. Let Ike have his 60 seconds of fame. Please don’t let this become more than what it is.

 

[DrKatz]

I get your reasoning, but I feel it's disingenuous to open with "this move looks OP in the hands of a pro" when players have expressed their dissatisfaction with the move prior to this weekend.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Also, the problem with Nair isn't that there's no counterplay against it (far from it, we saw Samsora slowly start work around the move before getting abruptly KOd). The issue with move that itsself is too good relative to Ike's entire moveset. Nair is an approach tool, a kill confirm, a punish tool, a combo move, a mixup tool and is completely safe.

I'm not making this point as someone who dislikes Ike (far from it, he's currently my favorite FE lord) but Ike deserves better than having his moveset revolve around a single move. And if they do happen to nerf Nair, I think he should receive appropriate buffs as compensation.

The goal isn't to make him worse, it's to make him have more depth as a character.

I’m in perfect agreement with you, but I’m worried Nintendo’s balance team doesn’t understand that philosophy so they’d likely take away all the options from Ike’s nair and give him nothing else to compensate, effectively neutering the character.

At the same time, the game has only been out one month. I don’t know if you saw MKLeo’s set versus the Best Florida Olimar (his name escapes me ATM), but he started using parry and up smash to counter the move pretty consistently. I agree that the move does too much for Ike as some of his other moves just feel higher risk, lower reward. But I just hope the “new” balance team understands the game enough to effectively balance a character without taking away from their power.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Ike’s nair is the glue that holds his kit together. Let the meta develop. Let Ike have his 60 seconds of fame. Please don’t let this become more than what it is.

Hey, if the nerfs do come down hard on him, at least Ike got his time in the spotlight unlike Smash 4.

 

[LightLV]

This I disagree with. YL has tons of kill confirms like bomb>Usmash, Dtilt>Dair, early boomerang>Dair, Bair1>Usmash, Fair1>Dsmash. If you were talking about T's GFs vs Ken, T got downloaded hard that set. Sonic got to high %s and T ended up fishing for Usmashes. To be fair T beat Ken in the winner's finals. A much better example is T vs Fatality. T does a good job showing off YL's kill confirms, especially the last 2 games.


I agree heavies do better in this game; although part of that is people aren't great at parrying and recognizing punish opportunities yet.

I was talking about solid strike kills, those are all confirms. When you require a confirm to get a kill it's a bit less reliable because in tight situations you have to fish, plus your reward for trading is way less.

In a Link vs. YLink situation where both are at high%, Link just has to hit you with any one of his tilts to probably finish you off while Ylink has to get a bit more creative. If they both trade then it's likely that Ylink is the one who's at disadvantage (or just dead).

IMO this is one of the main reason why heavies do well in this game. It just takes way fewer hits to actually end someone.

 

[MG_3989]

What do you guys think about Wolf? I know his tournament results have been great but his recovery is pretty much terrible and while he can kill he doesn’t have the most reliable kill options. Yeah he can combo well and his aerials are great but I don’t know how he’ll work out long term with that recovery which also prevents him from edge guards other than his blaster or a back air off the ledge. What do you guys think?

 

[ZephyrZ]

If there is one big takeaway I had from Smash Conference it was that edgegaurding is still pretty powerful. Big shocker of a revelation, I know. I haven't watched the whole thing yet, but I did get to see Samsora's Peach go up against both Salem's Link and MKLeo's Ike and those turnip snipes where a big deal in those match ups. Even when they didn't gimp they were still basically free damage.

This is why I have a hard time seeing Chrom being the top of top tier. He's extremely fast and powerful, but his weakness is rather extreme as well and will hurt his overall reliability. He's going to be particularly susceptible to clutch edge guards in certain match ups that will ultimately make him a pretty risky character pick. He's still quite good of course but I'm really not confident he's a contender for "best character in the game" when there are more well rounded characters out their with solid strengths but less extremely exploitable weaknesses. Smash 4's top tiers all had ways around their weakness afterall (Cloud's Limit Up-B, Diddy's and Sheik's kill set ups, Bayo's Witch Time as a landing option).

How have Peach's turnips faired in matchups against characters with better recoveries by the way? Link and Ike are know for having fairly bad recoveries, but I wonder how useful Peach's turnip edgeguards are against more well rounded recoveries. I mean obviously they aren't going to be huge against characters like Mewtwo and Palutena but they're a pretty safe option to throw out with little risk involved.

 

[Rizen]

I got around to watching Smash Conference United and Salem's Link. Link has been placing better than I expected. The best analogy I can make is is like SSB4 . He's a heavyweight, in essence, with good reward but his neutral's slow enough to give him trouble and his disadvantage is bad. Watching Leo vs Salem really showed Link doesn't have good options when juggled. He also dies from getting hit offstage. When Link makes the right play and lands a pivot Fsmash or whatever he kills very early but if he doesn't he can be put in bad spots. Like I said, Link wins hard and loses hard. I think the perfect example is Fatality's Link vs Tyroy's Pichu. Fatality makes the right calls and wins game one, loses game 2 as CF, switches to Link again and gets gimped pretty hard game 3.

(The commentary's rather amusing on this btw)
Link gets exploited hard. My outlook has improved from results (although I'd like to see how much he was used total compared to how much he won) but can't see Link higher than upper mid tier.

 

[LightLV]

What do you guys think about Wolf?

he's the most aggravating character in the game and i'm convinced he has the single best projectile and nobody can convince me otherwise

 

[MG_3989]

he's the most aggravating character in the game and i'm convinced he has the single best projectile and nobody can convince me otherwise

His blaster is great but does it make up for his recovery and lack of ledge guarding options?

 

[LightLV]

His blaster is great but does it make up for his recovery and lack of ledge guarding options?

trolling side, I think he's sort of the "Chrom" of the space animals. He's a bit of a powerhouse on the stage with some really oppressive options/buttons, and that's balanced by his recovery. I think he operates pretty decently, he's seriously got some amazing tools on the stage, and there are characters with farrrr worse recoveries than him.

I can't really speak too much on him though because 90% of the Wolf players I encounter online tend to completely fall apart when their blaster baiting tactic fails, and i've never fought one offline

 

[MG_3989]

trolling side, I think he's sort of the "Chrom" of the space animals. He's a bit of a powerhouse on the stage with some really oppressive options/buttons, and that's balanced by his recovery. I think he operates pretty decently, he's seriously got some amazing tools on the stage, and there are characters with farrrr worse recoveries than him.

I can't really speak too much on him though because 90% of the Wolf players I encounter online tend to completely fall apart when their blaster baiting tactic fails, and i've never fought one offline

Yeah that’s about the Wolf’s I’ve seen online. They just blaster and don’t use his aerials, strings, or juggle tools. I think Chrom is a good analogy. To me it seems like the long term meta is going towards all edgeguarding and while Wolf has a few options he has trouble doing it. Just wanted to see people’s thoughts on him as a character

 

[Ffamran]

Saying they suck was too far but have they had any results? I think with a ton of work and tech, Ken can be above average but hardly seems worth it at the competitive level.

You have access to the internet -- that's why you're even able to post here -- which is a wealth of a information and you're asking if Ken and Ryu have results. There's a tournament results thread on Smashboards: https://smashboards.com/threads/ssbu-tournament-results.464865/, you can just search "super smash bros ultimate ken/ryu" on YouTube to find matches, and you can probably look up Smash 4 Ryu players and check if they're still playing Ryu or switched or picked up Ken. Venom from Canada was mentioned already. 9B, who played Bayonetta and Ryu in Smash 4, from what I know isn't participating for now along with aMSa, Earth, and Ranai because they were playtesters for Ultimate and it would be unfair for them to compete so soon.

This goes for everyone by the way. There are some things that people should not have to spoon-feed you. Granted, some things are difficult to find information on like if you can't read Japanese, then looking up less well-known Japanese players for whoever, venues, tournaments, whatever would be hard, but in many other cases, it's like a click or a search away.

I can't really speak too much on him though because 90% of the Wolf players I encounter online tend to completely fall apart when their blaster baiting tactic fails, and i've never fought one offline

Trash talk: Wolf players outside of Japan are playing like idiots. Eim's Wolf and Zackray's Wolf are leagues ahead of them.

Also, more trash talk: most Ken and Ryu players play like idiots.

Do not take any of what I just said seriously.

 

[NotLiquid]

I must be like one of the only people who enjoys the no crossup change. Anything that helps strengthen the concept of stage control.

Nah, I like it a lot - not just because it allows heavies to be better but because it forces the ledge to finally be an area where you're supposed to be at a disadvantage. As far back as Melee it's been proven time and time again that being at disadvantage near the ledge meant nothing (especially if you were a character like Fox) because the opponent could just make a mad dash passed the opponent to get out of a jam. You had way too many mixup options to reset into neutral. Now that's not nearly as much of an issue, even fast characters will be forced to stay in their lane. Sure, it sort of makes Doubles suck a little bit now, but hey, Squad Strike is better - let's adopt that.

Also the change means Incineroar gets to be even more deliciously intimidating than he already is.

 

[The_Bookworm]

You have access to the internet -- that's why you're even able to post here -- which is wealth of a information and you're asking if Ken and Ryu have results. There's a tournament results thread on Smashboards: https://smashboards.com/threads/ssbu-tournament-results.464865/, you can just search "super smash bros ultimate ken/ryu" on YouTube to find matches, and you can probably look up Smash 4 Ryu players and check if they're still playing Ryu or switched or picked up Ken. Venom from Canada was mentioned already. 9B, who played Bayonetta and Ryu in Smash 4, from what I know isn't participating for now along with aMSa, Earth, and Ranai because they were playtesters for Ultimate and it would be unfair for them to compete so soon.

This goes for everyone by the way. There are some things that people should not have to spoon-feed you. Granted, some things are difficult to find information on like if you can't read Japanese, then looking up less well-known Japanese players for whoever, venues, tournaments, whatever would be hard, but in many other cases, it's like a click or a search away.


Trash talk: Wolf players outside of Japan are playing like idiots. Eim's Wolf and Zackray's Wolf are leagues ahead of them.

Also, more trash talk: most Ken and Ryu players play like idiots.

Do not take any of what I just said seriously.

The reason why Ryu/Ken isn't really too much play right now, outside of their technicalities (and it still being only one month in the game lol), is because they are suffering from "Mewtwoitus". Their mains aren't very content with the changes made to the character, particularly to the auto-turnaround mechanic because it feels awkward to them as well. Then there was the issues from the SSB4 Ryu playerbase themselves that we already talked about. Right now, both Locus and Trela are playing Ridley, while I know for sure that Venom is playing Ken.

 

[Minordeth]

I get your reasoning, but I feel it's disingenuous to open with "this move looks OP in the hands of a pro" when players have expressed their dissatisfaction with the move prior to this weekend.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Also, the problem with Nair isn't that there's no counterplay against it (far from it, we saw Samsora slowly start work around the move before getting abruptly KOd). The issue with move that itsself is too good relative to Ike's entire moveset. Nair is an approach tool, a kill confirm, a punish tool, a combo move, a mixup tool and is completely safe.

I'm not making this point as someone who dislikes Ike (far from it, he's currently my favorite FE lord) but Ike deserves better than having his moveset revolve around a single move. And if they do happen to nerf Nair, I think he should receive appropriate buffs as compensation.

The goal isn't to make him worse, it's to make him have more depth as a character.

I get that, but I also think the likelihood of the community blowing something like Ike's Nair into something far beyond what it is, is more likely than Ike's Nair being overcentralizing to his kit. His meta has barely started.

I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up something like Smash 4's ZSS' nair.

What do you guys think about Wolf? I know his tournament results have been great but his recovery is pretty much terrible and while he can kill he doesn’t have the most reliable kill options. Yeah he can combo well and his aerials are great but I don’t know how he’ll work out long term with that recovery which also prevents him from edge guards other than his blaster or a back air off the ledge. What do you guys think?

Uh. Wolf is great. Smash has always had top tier characters with bad recoveries. See: Fox. Wolf's neutral can handle just about anything, and his advantage state is bonkers. He can edge guard, but why take the risk, when he has some of the best ledge trapping in the game?

Fwiw, Blaster to Dair as an edgeguard is simple, but extremely effective.

You have access to the internet -- that's why you're even able to post here -- which is wealth of a information and you're asking if Ken and Ryu have results. There's a tournament results thread on Smashboards: https://smashboards.com/threads/ssbu-tournament-results.464865/, you can just search "super smash bros ultimate ken/ryu" on YouTube to find matches, and you can probably look up Smash 4 Ryu players and check if they're still playing Ryu or switched or picked up Ken. Venom from Canada was mentioned already. 9B, who played Bayonetta and Ryu in Smash 4, from what I know isn't participating for now along with aMSa, Earth, and Ranai because they were playtesters for Ultimate and it would be unfair for them to compete so soon.

This goes for everyone by the way. There are some things that people should not have to spoon-feed you. Granted, some things are difficult to find information on like if you can't read Japanese, then looking up less well-known Japanese players for whoever, venues, tournaments, whatever would be hard, but in many other cases, it's like a click or a search away.


Trash talk: Wolf players outside of Japan are playing like idiots. Eim's Wolf and Zackray's Wolf are leagues ahead of them.

Also, more trash talk: most Ken and Ryu players play like idiots.

Do not take any of what I just said seriously.

I want to see more of Eim, to provide more contrast for Zackray. But honestly, Zackray is a beast. AC Bair to discourage ledge hopping to Downward angled Fair is a nasty, nasty set up that I saw him put to great use.

 

[Kellojolly]

If there is one big takeaway I had from Smash Conference it was that edgegaurding is still pretty powerful. Big shocker of a revelation, I know. I haven't watched the whole thing yet, but I did get to see Samsora's Peach go up against both Salem's Link and MKLeo's Ike and those turnip snipes where a big deal in those match ups. Even when they didn't gimp they were still basically free damage.

This is why I have a hard time seeing Chrom being the top of top tier. He's extremely fast and powerful, but his weakness is rather extreme as well and will hurt his overall reliability. He's going to be particularly susceptible to clutch edge guards in certain match ups that will ultimately make him a pretty risky character pick. He's still quite good of course but I'm really not confident he's a contender for "best character in the game" when there are more well rounded characters out their with solid strengths but less extremely exploitable weaknesses. Smash 4's top tiers all had ways around their weakness afterall (Cloud's Limit Up-B, Diddy's and Sheik's kill set ups, Bayo's Witch Time as a landing option).

How have Peach's turnips faired in matchups against characters with better recoveries by the way? Link and Ike are know for having fairly bad recoveries, but I wonder how useful Peach's turnip edgeguards are against more well rounded recoveries. I mean obviously they aren't going to be huge against characters like Mewtwo and Palutena but they're a pretty safe option to throw out with little risk involved.

What are your thoughts on Cloud and his tier placement in the future? Cloud's somewhat similar to Chrom in a sense that they are good onstage but can be gimped for their poor recovery. How would you describe his edge guarding also since the meta seems to be emphasizing characters' edge guarding capabilities also?

 

[Rizen]

I've been looking at results TDK helpfully posts for each week. Something seems weird to me. How the hell is consistently out placing other heavyweights?!
https://smashboards.com/attachments/screenshot-49-png.185930/

I really don't get it. DDD just seems bad, not that I know a lot about him :/

 

[Y2Kay]

Wolf is legit. Great zoning and keep away with good footsie normals. He lacks solid kill confirms, but he has an insanely good set of smash attacks. He doesn't have a great edge-guarding presence but he does have good ledge-trapping. I cna see him dropping off but rn he's high tier to me.

 

[LightLV]

Trash talk: Wolf players outside of Japan are playing like idiots. Eim's Wolf and Zackray's Wolf are leagues ahead of them.

Also, more trash talk: most Ken and Ryu players play like idiots.

Do not take any of what I just said seriously.

i'm playing around with him online now

yeah people overplay his hand. He seems like he's designed to just hog the flow of the match by stripping all your options away. He's got some really specific ranges but man he's actually really fun to play. But playing him i see why people run him the way they do.

I think Chrom was a bad comparison....honestly? I'd compare him more to King K Rool.


Edit:


Annnnnndddd Wolf is now my highest ranked GSP character HAHAHAHAHA

yo i might actually touch this char

 

[Iridium]

It's ironically amusing to see next to nothing for results at a larger scale. Seriously though, I'm legitimately scared of what will happen when they let loose, because the desync possibilities are actually insane. Like, with shenanigans like this. Their damage output is no joke.

And I'm also seriously believing will doing better in Japan than anywhere else for a while. Sigma, Ri-ma and even Hayato. doing really well at Sumabato SP 1 gives me hope for more results in the future. I personally think he's quite underrated compared to the other Links. Good mobility, spacing ability, kill power, and decent recovery, although lighter (I think?) among weaknesses. Doesn't play like the other two a lot, but I see all three doing very successfully. I want to dedicate some time to playing him more to be more aware of what he has and does not have going for him.

Finally, I'm loving how has over time denied to odds of failure once again to look like one of the better characters again. Only took time to make good use of his rushdown style. Fox Illusion getting nerfed and successive shine stalling were really the worst things he got, but gets more mobility in addition to a slightly harder recovery to challenge (Fire Fox, specifically) and slightly stronger u-smash of all things. Looking out for Larry Lurr, Charlie, Megafox and JaySon as examples of top Foxes. Give me SH too, darn it.

 

[Ghidorah14]

How is bayonetta shaping up in everyone’s eyes? I could never main her in 4 because I sucked at the ladder combos, but seeing as they aren’t really a thing anymore, I’m curious as to how she is fairing after the initial “dead character” impression.

 

[ZephyrZ]

What are your thoughts on Cloud and his tier placement in the future? Cloud's somewhat similar to Chrom in a sense that they are good onstage but can be gimped for their poor recovery. How would you describe his edge guarding also since the meta seems to be emphasizing characters' edge guarding capabilities also?

I'll be honest with you: I really have no idea. I tend to make super conservative guesses when it comes to tier placement because I'm not expert and I know it, and I haven't really studied Cloud enough to have any real opinion on him. So for his future tier placement, I haven't got a clue. ZeRo picking him up at least seems promising, but we'll have to see if he sticks with him.

As for edge guarding, his has to be fairly good if not just for his big hitboxes though, as is expected from swordies. On the flip side, the inability to hold onto Limit indefinitely is really going to be a problem for him when it comes to recovery and edgeguarding because his Limit Up-B is clutch and Limit Cross-Slash nonsense are now both much more limited and situational. I don't see his hitbox nerfs as a massive problem for him though when they're still pretty big though.

Of course I don't expect edgeguarding to be the end-all be-all for character placement, I just think a halfway decent one will probably be needed to hold the title of "best character in the game". I mean, Ike winning a major spits in the face of the idea that a bad recovery will totally prevent a character from being viable. Although his is still far better then Chrom's just for Quick Draw. Likewise Peach hard far more going for her then just offstage turnip snipes. Lots of people have already pointed out how crazy her combos are and how nifty of a tool float is. Heck she might actually be a contender for the "top of the top tiers", but I'm not going to make any rash judgement just yet.

 

[Lavani]

I've been looking at results TDK helpfully posts for each week. Something seems weird to me. How the hell is consistently out placing other heavyweights?!
https://smashboards.com/attachments/screenshot-49-png.185930/

I really don't get it. DDD just seems bad, not that I know a lot about him :/

Dedede was bad in 4, but being a character who lived forever and had some tools that were explosive against players who weren't prepared for them (namely things like gordo+fsmash ledgetraps that could end your life at 40 if you decided to stand up into it) made him prone to taking victories via matchup experience, or gave him the means to eke out wins against impatient/fatigued players.

In ult he has buffed Inhale for a usable command grab+reflector(+another facet of Gordo applications), more kill power from tilts/aerials(/in general?), super armor on non-custom Jet Hammer plus a hitbox that catches people hanging onto the ledge, and a world without infinite airdodges to abuse his multiple jumps and massive aerials for edgeguarding.

So he still stomps matchup inexperience, and there's more to be inexperienced with on top of him being a better version of himself in an engine that plays to his strengths more favorably. I still see him as one of the worse heavies (I'd only put him above dorf and maybe krool), and expect his results to begin dropping as people catch on to how he works, but I also really enjoy him as a character so I wouldn't be disappointed to be wrong about that.

 

[Yonder]

I've been looking at results TDK helpfully posts for each week. Something seems weird to me. How the hell is consistently out placing other heavyweights?!
https://smashboards.com/attachments/screenshot-49-png.185930/

I really don't get it. DDD just seems bad, not that I know a lot about him :/

Big D basically. He was PGR 1 for smash 4 in BC. PGR 2 for ultimate atm. He mains DDD and he's basically a prodigy.

I don't think DDD is better than any other heavyweight, otherwise.

 

[Ajani]

How is bayonetta shaping up in everyone’s eyes? I could never main her in 4 because I sucked at the ladder combos, but seeing as they aren’t really a thing anymore, I’m curious as to how she is fairing after the initial “dead character” impression.

I think this is the worst time you could have asked this because Trueace picking Bayo against MVD was definitly a meme pick and did not help her case at all against it.

 

[Rocketjay8]

I think this is the worst time you could have asked this because Trueace picking Bayo against MVD was definitly a meme pick and did not help her case at all against it.

Can you please give me a link to the match?

 

[The_Bookworm]

How is bayonetta shaping up in everyone’s eyes? I could never main her in 4 because I sucked at the ladder combos, but seeing as they aren’t really a thing anymore, I’m curious as to how she is fairing after the initial “dead character” impression.

Players are kinda divided on her. While some people (such as ZeRo) still views her as decent, she does not look very good at all. She got all of her reliable kill options removed, her combo game has been severely nerfed (to the point that you can easily DI her combos), her ability to pressure the opponents is gone, her ability to escape out of disadvantage is much worse due to Witch Time nerfs and that pretty much all aerials has almost no landing lag, recovery is much worse due to her up B failing to snap the ledge reliably, her much smaller hitboxes now kind of revealing her frame data issues.... just, she got the nerf hammer extremely hard. She is now a combo based character that cannot reliably combo very well, has a much harder issue dealing with disadvantage, and has a really hard time killing while being a rather light character herself.

Her pluses in the current moment is that if does land a combo, it at least some decent damage, and her edgeguarding is still pretty very good, although edgeguarding in this game is much easier in general across the end, stemming from improved edgeguarding tools and recoveries in general being nerfed. I feel like she will do at least somewhat decent at first, because players would not know how to abuse her newfound weaknesses, and players would not know that simply DI'ing her combos while grant them easy escape from them. Without DI, her combos are still devastating. tamim, Lima, and CaptainZack are right now getting some respectable results in especially local tourneys due to this. But when people begin to abuse her newfound weaknesses and learns about DI'ing her combos, she is going to fall off the map completely imo.

The top Bayo players are definitely not a fan of the new Bayonetta, I don't blame them: the team seems to have overnerfed her to oblivion. It is not because she is simply worse. CaptainZack back at the E3 demo (note that balance team nerfed Bayo even further since then) said that he had more fun with Bayo in Ultimate than in SSB4. Zack himself mentioned that using Bayo on stream feels like the equivalent of trolling, and tamim feels that Bayo is simply an incomplete character. Lima still wants to stick it out with her even if it means getting poor results with her. Salem was Mr. "Bayo is still the dominant #1 character in the game" back at the E3 demo, but he is now using Link, so I don't know what he thinks anymore. Some players still think she is still decent and that she simply needs adjusting, but imo tbh, it is probably due to the impact she made in SSB4 that is screwing people's thoughts on her. This isn't simply a "oh Samus got a dash attack nerf, but she got significant buffs in everywhere else" situation. Bayo got blown up in pretty everywhere and got pretty much nothing to compensate (aside from up tilt two hits properly connecting now). I may go as far as say that she is one of the worst characters in the game (if not the absolute worst), but that is my opinion. I feel kinda bad for the top SSB4 Bayo players who invested so much time and love with the character.

Do you guys think I overreacted and I am going to eat my words in the future? I would like to know.

Can you please give me a link to the match?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N84yRVfqNvs at the 7:13 mark. MVD completely slaughtered him.

 

[Deleted member]

What do y'all think about R.O.B im thinking about picking him up as a secondary to Little Mac

 

[Rizen]

I saw Lima carry an opponent off the screen with Bayo so she still might have some competitive value. Maybe it was bad DI, idk.

What do y'all think about R.O.B im thinking about picking him up as a secondary to Little Mac

ROB looks high tier. The engine favors his edgeguarding and he has lots of tools for different scenarios, like Gyro, laser and pretty good CQC options. He could easily eclipse Mac.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Hey, I'm thinking of picking up a combo heavy character - what are some recommendations?

 

[Sean²]

trolling side, I think he's sort of the "Chrom" of the space animals. He's a bit of a powerhouse on the stage with some really oppressive options/buttons, and that's balanced by his recovery. I think he operates pretty decently, he's seriously got some amazing tools on the stage, and there are characters with farrrr worse recoveries than him.

I can't really speak too much on him though because 90% of the Wolf players I encounter online tend to completely fall apart when their blaster baiting tactic fails, and i've never fought one offline

I'd be willing to give you a try, depending on your location. I like to think my game stays together like glue most of the time if you get past my blaster baiting

It's slowly being shown that Wolf isn't as bad offstage/edgeguarding as we thought. At first it was concerning that you had to kill the opponent outright or just let them back to ledge for free if they try to recover low. As long as he doesn't expend his jump early offstage then he's usually fine. You can get good runoff nairs against characters that don't have overly oppressive recoveries.

It's actually more concerning for him to get kills onstage that don't involve a read of some kind before 140%.

 

[Rizen]

Hey, I'm thinking of picking up a combo heavy character - what are some recommendations?

has these combos.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Players are kinda divided on her. While some people (such as ZeRo) still views her as decent, she does not look very good at all. She got all of her reliable kill options removed, her combo game has been severely nerfed (to the point that you can easily DI her combos), her ability to pressure the opponents is gone, her ability to escape out of disadvantage is much worse due to Witch Time nerfs and that pretty much all aerials has almost no landing lag, recovery is much worse due to her up B failing to snap the ledge reliably, her much smaller hitboxes now kind of revealing her frame data issues.... just, she got the nerf hammer extremely hard. She is now a combo based character that cannot reliably combo very well, has a much harder issue dealing with disadvantage, and has a really hard time killing while being a rather light character herself.

Her pluses in the current moment is that if does land a combo, it at least some decent damage, and her edgeguarding is still pretty very good, although edgeguarding in this game is much easier in general across the end, stemming from improved edgeguarding tools and recoveries in general being nerfed. I feel like she will do at least somewhat decent at first, because players would not know how to abuse her newfound weaknesses, and players would not know that simply DI'ing her combos while grant them easy escape from them. Without DI, her combos are still devastating. tamim, Lima, and CaptainZack are right now getting some respectable results in especially local tourneys due to this. But when people begin to abuse her newfound weaknesses and learns about DI'ing her combos, she is going to fall off the map completely imo.

The top Bayo players are definitely not a fan of the new Bayonetta, I don't blame them: the team seems to have overnerfed her to oblivion. It is not because she is simply worse. CaptainZack back at the E3 demo (note that balance team nerfed Bayo even further since then) said that he had more fun with Bayo in Ultimate than in SSB4. Zack himself mentioned that using Bayo on stream feels like the equivalent of trolling, and tamim feels that Bayo is simply an incomplete character. Lima still wants to stick it out with her even if it means getting poor results with her. Salem was Mr. "Bayo is still the dominant #1 character in the game" back at the E3 demo, but he is now using Link, so I don't know what he thinks anymore. Some players still think she is still decent and that she simply needs adjusting, but imo tbh, it is probably due to the impact she made in SSB4 that is screwing people's thoughts on her. This isn't simply a "oh Samus got a dash attack nerf, but she got significant buffs in everywhere else" situation. Bayo got blown up in pretty everywhere and got pretty much nothing to compensate (aside from up tilt two hits properly connecting now). I may go as far as say that she is one of the worst characters in the game (if not the absolute worst), but that is my opinion. I feel kinda bad for the top SSB4 Bayo players who invested so much time and love with the character.

Do you guys think I overreacted and I am going to eat my words in the future? I would like to know.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N84yRVfqNvs at the 7:13 mark. MVD completely slaughtered him.

I don't think you overreacted. Most characters in this game got so much better she's going to get outclassed by so many characters on top of all of the weakness that you mentioned. Having mediocre specials, frame data issues, blind spots that make moves unreliable, and unrelible killing options can cripple a character. Just ask Dedede who used to invalidate a huge portion of the roster in Brawl to being a shadow of his former self in Smash 4.

Oof, MVD got absolutely destroyed.

 

[Rocketjay8]

double post

 

[KakuCP9]

It's slowly being shown that Wolf isn't as bad offstage/edgeguarding as we thought. At first it was concerning that you had to kill the opponent outright or just let them back to ledge for free if they try to recover low. As long as he doesn't expend his jump early offstage then he's usually fine. You can get good runoff nairs against characters that don't have overly oppressive recoveries.

This is how I feel about Chrom because the range and power of his aerials are well worth the attempt to whack them (his recovery still has decent vertical range so he can make it back if he has a jump). Hell, the guy can ledge-drop down-b counter low recoveries (bar the PK kids for whatever reason) and then just whack them aerials which most certainly kill them (the other FE lords can do this too).

 

[S_B]

I'd be all for re-balancing Ike's moveset to be as Nair-dependent, but nerfing it and doing nothing else will pretty much dumpster him. That's probably what happens, so for now, I'm going to ride the high of Ike actually being temporarily good. I've been waiting for 10 years.

"I was only fighting for my friends!!" - Ike, as he plummets into the dumpster

Here's my prediction: I think it's going to be very, VERY difficult for a tier list to truly settle for a while.

Reason being, we still haven't seen parrying become a major factor in matches yet: it's just kind of hanging there as an explored mechanic, waiting in the shadows until players are ready to stop playing this game like SSB4 in any capacity and truly start to master it.

Things that are safe on shield might not be on a parry, and that can turn the entire meta on its head overnight. The tierlist of this game may very well need to be explored twice...

 

[Shaya]

I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up something like Smash 4's ZSS' nair.

I don't like this perspective (and no one needs to point out the bias for this).
Zero Suits nair is 10f (as is Ike's) start up and between two hits has 4 frame duration of hitboxes. It had disjoint but on tiny/thin lined hitboxes. it's blind spots were numerous. It required you to land with it (i.e. full air time) to get good use out of it. It's range horizontally behind is much worse than the front and it doesn't hit low behind her either.

I have no idea what Ike's nair duration is now, but it's definitely covered with larger hitboxes, range, disjoint and area of coverage.

The theory that it's very vulnerable to parries (which isn't wrong per se) is what's going to keep it from being low-mid level players beating 'better' players because they'll be predictable with their spacing and timings. Ike doesn't have to just land on top of you with this move (and Ike just landing on top of me with this move is going to get up-b'd or up smashed oos by ZSS for free, I'm sure everyone's going to learn their bnb oos otions for dealing with ike nair pretty darn quickly). MKLeo's adaption to samsora legitimately seemed to be "oh i guess i have to think about where and when I time my landing nairs now" (and not just relentlessly using it over and over again like he was able to get away with vs most other people we saw) and suddenly the 5-10 frame duration landing move with an 8 frame safety window for parrying suddenly becomes a 1-2F window with spacing, and about 10+ different variations of timing and spacing from an Ike's execution with it.

MKLeo deserves credit.
Every player who's ever pushed an "OP move" or character tends to deserve credit, because for the most part the developer's aren't silly enough to create anything with 0 units of counterplay. But when you have really strong players using moves with maybe 1 unit of counter play but with smart usage goes down to 0.1, you're going to get broken/busted results.

Meta-wise, Ike could be good for everyone.
The meta is already significantly focused around using light weights.
Ikes combos are very dumb on lightweights, the base knockback of up air and nair puts lightweights into the death zone very easily, heavy weights on the other hand do not have to deal with this as much, and tend to have strong edge guarding options vs ike's side-b and up-b (flame throwers, charge shots, up tilts that are 2x as big as ike's nair, etc).

It's disappointing that Ike's nair is overtuned in relation to his kit this drastically, I don't think anyone could really argue this.
I believe it's a shame it's that easy to combo off of it with essentially no DI mix ups existing (that we know of thus far). It probably should keep it's safety so Ike can maintain how threatening he is.... but perhaps it's growth needs to be higher so at least there's a point of time where you'll actually travel too far to combo into up air at ko% (again, heavies might already be in this basket, which firmly points towards Ike's nair not needing nerfs at all).

Can't wait for people to see someone good use [Dark] Samus' nair a lot and complain about it too.
At least that move sends horizontally instead of vertically, but truly, that move is glorious.
And when MKLeo says Dark Samus is a cool character he wants to use at top level, I'm pretty sure I see RIGHT THROUGH HIS CUNNING PLAN for when he does crack her out against someone's Ike, thus gratifying our friends like Minordeth who argue there's no foul to the move.
Ike can barely nair or EVER EVER jump against Samus thanks to her nair.

That's my take.