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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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    584

trickroom

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Forgive me if I'm missing something, but this doesn't seem like a huge nerf. The only part of the move that gained a hurtbox is the green (middle) hitbox. He still has a sizable disjoint at the end there, and, if we're being honest, I don't think gaining another thin sliver of hurtbox (that is covered on all sides by a hitbox, no less) is that bad. I'm aware that hurtboxes, even when "covered" by a hitboxes, are still a bad thing to have, but I can't help but feel like this is more minor than it seems, especially when the tip of it, the best/most useful part, still doesn't have a hurtbox to speak of. Stepping into the big picture, even if this is a direct nerf, Mewtwo still has (in my opinion) a solid neutral bolstered by his fast and strong hitboxes, busted fair, and very good charge shot.
 
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LordShade67

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Forgive me if I'm missing something, but this doesn't seem like a huge nerf. The only part of the move that gained a hurtbox is the green (middle) hitbox. He still has a sizable disjoint at the end there, and, if we're being honest, I don't think gaining another thin sliver of hurtbox (that is covered on all sides by a hitbox, no less) is that bad. I'm aware that hurtboxes, even when "covered" by a hitboxes, are still a bad thing to have, but I can't help but feel like this is more minor than it seems, especially when the tip of it, the best/most useful part, still doesn't have a hurtbox to speak of. Stepping into the big picture, even if this is a direct nerf, Mewtwo still has (in my opinion) a solid neutral bolstered by his fast and strong hitboxes, busted fair, and very good charge shot.
It doesn't look like a problem until you actually play him for abit. It basically forces a character that already hates trades + has one of the worst disadvantage states in the game to rely on SB and whiff punishes for neutral. Even if you do properly space tilts, there's a chance you can still trade due to said hurtboxes being larger. And that happens alot in a game where it's safer to throw out buttons.
 

Tri Knight

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A few days ago someone said K.Rool players will improve when they stop relying on his armor, etc. Really utilize the character's full kit instead of treating it as a crutch. The same applies to the Belmonts; they're not gimmicky characters. Belmonts have solid zoning projectiles that are hard to tell apart when they're thrown and chains that don't need to be sweet spotted. Kill throws, burst options with Dtilt... I agree they'll drop a bit but they're solid characters.

The only real gimmicky thing I can think of is Link picking up an arrow he shot then shooting two at once. It's so impractical and will rarely be a factor.
I fail to see the purpose in Link's double arrow too, man lol cool thought, just almost useless in real practice. What would have been cool of Link shot double arrows naturally. His arrow spam game would be a bit more interesting.
 

Rocketjay8

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I fail to see the purpose in Link's double arrow too, man lol cool thought, just almost useless in real practice. What would have been cool of Link shot double arrows naturally. His arrow spam game would be a bit more interesting.
It would have been better if he charged an arrow, cancel it, and stores it. When he uses the bow again it will be a double arrow.
 

Browny

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It's not even the combo bit that's the problem with M2. Our problem is the fact that our hurtboxes got bigger for no reason other than because Sakurai*. It's kinda hard to neutral people when the non-SB neutral tools USUALLY end in an unfavorable trade because of this. And no. This happens even if you DID properly space it. For evidence:
Who looked at THIS and thought "Yes. This is fine"?

*Yes I know, it's because in S4 a lot of his tail was in the Z-Axis. Regardless.
How did you get this? Because hurtboxes aren't usually that tightly constrained to a characters model.

I tested it just then and yes while the hurtbox did get bigger, that's really not a big deal. Grounded moves arent meant to trade, they just clank unless you are using it as an anti-aerial of which ftilt certainly is not. This would only come into play with bair, uair and utilt. It would seem like Mewtwo gained power on a variety of moves to trade off other things. Like his ftilt, fsmash, bthrow, jab, shadow ball and disable all got buffs which I guess bair, uair, ftilt, utilt and dtilt got nerfs.

I still maintain that this game is going to go the way of brawl where neutral is king and characters with good neutrals (of which Mewtwo has an incredible one) will benefit more in the long run and well, videos like this
just make me more confident in that. I've been very skeptical of Lucario and this is certainly nice to see.

Seriously though, that match is just a brawl match at like 1.25 speed. No combos from anyone, just a lot of running around, not hitting anyone. And this is top level, optimal play.
 
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Spinosaurus

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Using an invincibility star in training mode with invincibility/intangibility toggle shows the character's hurtbox...supposedly.
 

san.

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Tsu vs. Lea is online, correct? You can see an online taunt in the beginning of the match. How good are connections in Japan? Can they be useful for analyzing tournament-level matches?
 

Omastar

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Tsu vs. Lea is online, correct? You can see an online taunt in the beginning of the match. How good are connections in Japan? Can they be useful for analyzing tournament-level matches?
I'd assume so, but like everything online you have to take it with a grain of salt.
 

Y2Kay

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Japan’s WiFi Leagues are filled with legit matches and players, but it’s not necessarily a good reflection of the meta. YB, a Samus player, has an iron grip on the #1 rank on Sumamate rankings since release iirc.

:150:
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Tsu vs. Lea is online, correct? You can see an online taunt in the beginning of the match. How good are connections in Japan? Can they be useful for analyzing tournament-level matches?
I believe their online is way better than ours. I think it's a decent source to use.
 

MapleBeasts

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It really is. It’s nice to look at the tournament results thread and see Ness in a ton of top 8s even with wins and a good amount of second and third place finishes
Little OT but Lucas is also feeling really good. The fact that fair and dair more consistently land all the hits is a god send for his combo potential. Even though he lost dthrow to combo with he's got a lot going for him. A ton of his moveset kills including tipper fair, pk fire, pk freeze (quite early may I add) uair, bair, uthrow and his smashes. He's gonna struggle against swordies but I've never had more fun playing him.
 
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E.G.G.M.A.N.

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I still maintain that this game is going to go the way of brawl where neutral is king and characters with good neutrals (of which Mewtwo has an incredible one) will benefit more in the long run and well, videos like this
just make me more confident in that. I've been very skeptical of Lucario and this is certainly nice to see.

Seriously though, that match is just a brawl match at like 1.25 speed. No combos from anyone, just a lot of running around, not hitting anyone. And this is top level, optimal play.
God, I hope not. If this game turns out to be Brawl 3, I'm seriously quitting for good this time lol.
 

Ajani

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How did you get this? Because hurtboxes aren't usually that tightly constrained to a characters model.

I tested it just then and yes while the hurtbox did get bigger, that's really not a big deal. Grounded moves arent meant to trade, they just clank unless you are using it as an anti-aerial of which ftilt certainly is not. This would only come into play with bair, uair and utilt. It would seem like Mewtwo gained power on a variety of moves to trade off other things. Like his ftilt, fsmash, bthrow, jab, shadow ball and disable all got buffs which I guess bair, uair, ftilt, utilt and dtilt got nerfs.

I still maintain that this game is going to go the way of brawl where neutral is king and characters with good neutrals (of which Mewtwo has an incredible one) will benefit more in the long run and well, videos like this

just make me more confident in that. I've been very skeptical of Lucario and this is certainly nice to see.

Seriously though, that match is just a brawl match at like 1.25 speed. No combos from anyone, just a lot of running around, not hitting anyone. And this is top level, optimal play.
So I just want to do some quick analysis on what Tsu did great as Lucario

Lucario has laggy frame data. However, in the right hands he can be exploit the weakness with ASC/Wavedash. For example, his FSmash hits F19 but its range hits perfectly out of a spot dodge.

Another great tech is that you can jump out of AS and makes his move more unpredictable.

One way Lucario will be playing different and Ive noticed with Tsu's game play here is that players also need to be using his DAir more as it hits on F3 and that ties him for 3rd fastest in the game. He can also spike it as well but not as effective as others.

He has 3 main kill options: BAir (F13), Smashes (F19), UAir (F10). As you can tell not the most ideal and BAir is very difficult to land (although so satisfying). You can see struggling to connect BAirs as well as Lucario short hops are quite unusual.

Alternative kill options are Side B grab (F7) which requires a decent read on the opponent and Counter (down b) which has reduced active frame animation.

Jeda came top 5 in Wanted last week and I had the pleasure of interviewing him through twitter and Ill post it this weekend hopefully. Some key notes:

-Jeda felt Lucario is not top tier but high tier. For a character thats a good spot to be in as it sneaks through the Nerf radar
-He struggles hard against Pichu as it is extremely difficult to hit
-At the same time, Lucario so far feels as if he doesnt have BAD matchups and fairs well against Inklings. His losses were to Gluttony's Wario and NAKAT's Pichu. He was undefeated against Inklings (including NAKATs)
 

ZephyrZ

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So let's say this game does turn out to have little in terms disadvantage state. Does that necessarily make it just like Brawl? Less advantage state means slower games, but Ultimate has several mechanics that reward aggression. Nerfed shields, little landing lag, and the ability to act out of run all help to set Ultimate's gameplay and metagame apart and make more offensive gameplans more viable. A lot of time is spent in neutral sure, but neutral is more complex in this game since its mechanics make it so many characters have a lot of options. Making comparisons to Brawl is still fine if there's things we can learn about Ultimate from Brawl, but calling Ultimate "Brawl 2.0" or "Brawl 3.0" merely because of a few similarities is a huge oversimplification and I expect the metagame to still be quite different in a lot of ways even if it has some important things in common.

Edit: After reviewing the thread rules I felt like the post I made may have crossed the line into "Game Preference Discussion" so I edited it pretty heavily.
Edit 2: Made some large revisions to my post and did more to move it away from game preferences discussion.
 
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Ghidorah14

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About luc's fsmash: I've found a lot of success spacing people's shields with it, then dashing back, and fsmashing again as they try and punish for the kill. It's stupid fast now, and I don't think folks will learn to respect it for some time.

AS being jump cancelable means you can mix up the timing of when you let it rip. Condition them to jump and them nail them when they do. Constantly jumping, charging, and jumping again to keep them guessing.
 

Mister M

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Seriously though, that match is just a brawl match at like 1.25 speed. No combos from anyone, just a lot of running around, not hitting anyone. And this is top level, optimal play.
If this video appears brawl like, i believe it's purely because of the character match up.
Characters in this game maintain advantage through superior frame data or mobilty, large hit boxes that can juggle, or traps/high pressure disjoint (FE in particular).

Greninja's combo and juggle tools are far too low range to keep up advantage for long. Up air in particular suffers from having a very narrow hitbox. Until people get better at moving and hitting with him, his meta is gonna be defined by short and consistent confirms straight into up smash and fair, with shuriken and other quick moves for pot shots.

Lucario has been playing brawl since for ever. I don't believe he was ever designed around b reverse auto spheres, but players have done their best to disguise their approaches since (i feel) his mobility is his biggest weakness, all in order to land that one rage enhanced hit.
 

MartinAW4

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If this video appears brawl like, i believe it's purely because of the character match up.
Characters in this game maintain advantage through superior frame data or mobilty, large hit boxes that can juggle, or traps/high pressure disjoint (FE in particular).

Greninja's combo and juggle tools are far too low range to keep up advantage for long. Up air in particular suffers from having a very narrow hitbox. Until people get better at moving and hitting with him, his meta is gonna be defined by short and consistent confirms straight into up smash and fair, with shuriken and other quick moves for pot shots.

Lucario has been playing brawl since for ever. I don't believe he was ever designed around b reverse auto spheres, but players have done their best to disguise their approaches since (i feel) his mobility is his biggest weakness, all in order to land that one rage enhanced hit.
This. You have a matchup of one of the most mobile characters in the game vs one of the most dangerous characters in the game. So it is to be expected to see evasive and safe options being prioritized in the match. One mistake vs high aura Lucario can easily cost you your stock after all and getting hit by Dtilt or soft Nair vs Greninja at 90+% also means you're losing your stock to Usmash.

And to be fair, Greninja did get to combo off most of his moves. Browny was likely focusing on Lucario when watching the match if he thought there was a lack of combos since Lucario never was a combo heavy character. He does have some combos at lower percents but once the percents get higher, each of his moves deals so much damage that it would be pretty broken if he could land more than one at a time in a true combo.

Also in general I find neutral game is underappreciated by the viewers. Neutral is when both players get to play the game at their best with all their options available. That is the most competitive and skill intensive part of the game. It is a lot easier to learn to combo than to play neutral since you are just repeating the same moves you know are guaranteed with no way for your opponent to escape. It is essentially a single player game when comboing.

But in neutral you need to learn to move around the stage to progressively corner your opponent and reduce their options or spacing and timing your moves correctly to maximize their safety while threatening the most space around your opponent. To know when it is safe to go in, when your opponent committed to an unsafe option, when he is the most unsafe, conditioning your opponent with certain moves to make them react in predictable ways which you can then exploit and constantly mixing up your playstyle to keep your opponent from figuring you out.

Neutral is the most important aspect in separating the good players from the average. You can be the greatest combo master in the world but if you can't play neutral, you will get beat even by average players. But if you are a neutral master who cannot combo, you will still be dominating most of your games, it will just be one hit at a time.

A good example of this was PHaZeX3r0 who was by far the best combo Greninja master in the world. He could do the craziest footstool combos and 0-deaths you could imagine. Yet you never saw him make it far in a tournament. It was the Greninjas with the best neutral and movement like Istudying, Venia, Lea and Somé who saw the most success in tournaments.

Having overly long combos actually removes competitiveness from the game because you are removing the interaction between players. You have many examples of this from Smash 4 Bayonetta to Melee wobbling and chain grabs or pretty much the entire combo game of 64.
I think the perfect balance is 2-3 hit combo strings at a time max. to make it exciting for the viewers without sacrificing too much competitiveness. Any more follow-ups after the 3rd one should at least require a read or 50/50 that give your opponent the possibility to escape if he makes the correct decision. Which is pretty much exactly what we have now in Ultimate.
 

williamsga555

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Regarding the Belmont discussion from the previous page or two, there's something interesting about them that I'd like some more informed opinions on.

How do you feel about their unique jump? The Belmonts have a tendency to "freeze" in place at the apex of their jump for a moment before falling back down. Now to me, a very casual Belmont player, it seems like a great tool for evading enemy projectiles while still putting some pressure on (i.e. why shield their stuff when I can jump instead and be in perfect fair/bair territory?). Similarly seems great for platform pressure since it lets you extend the threat of fair/bair for longer just by empty hopping and waiting in midair.

Iunno, I feel like it's probably not that amazing but it's something I've not seen discussed at all and was wondering if anyone had bothered messing around with it.
 

bc1910

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If this video appears brawl like, i believe it's purely because of the character match up.
Characters in this game maintain advantage through superior frame data or mobilty, large hit boxes that can juggle, or traps/high pressure disjoint (FE in particular).

Greninja's combo and juggle tools are far too low range to keep up advantage for long. Up air in particular suffers from having a very narrow hitbox. Until people get better at moving and hitting with him, his meta is gonna be defined by short and consistent confirms straight into up smash and fair, with shuriken and other quick moves for pot shots.

Lucario has been playing brawl since for ever. I don't believe he was ever designed around b reverse auto spheres, but players have done their best to disguise their approaches since (i feel) his mobility is his biggest weakness, all in order to land that one rage enhanced hit.
Uair of course falters in range compared to swordie Uairs, but Greninja definitely has the mobility to keep up advantage for extended periods. You could say that Pikachu and Pichu have low range yet they both have strong combo games. It's true that Greninja is better at trapping landings and punishing defensive options, which he doesn't necessarily have to read since his mobility allows him to do it on reaction. I feel like this is what you were alluding to when you mentioned his movement though.

Uair does at least have a good number of active frames and Bair is decent for chasing opponents down too. If you watch Venia play you can see how much mileage he gets off Greninja's punish game, which Lea didn't really show here beyond the 2-3 hit Greninja BnBs (be it down to the MU or Lea's preferred playstyle). Last week's Xeno sets against Light are a good example.
 

MG_3989

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Little OT but Lucas is also feeling really good. The fact that fair and dair more consistently land all the hits is a god send for his combo potential. Even though he lost dthrow to combo with he's got a lot going for him. A ton of his moveset kills including tipper fair, pk fire, pk freeze (quite early may I add) uair, bair, uthrow and his smashes. He's gonna struggle against swordies but I've never had more fun playing him.
I’ll have to check out Lucas! I haven’t played him since Brawl since I didn’t play Smash 4 and it sounds like he got a lot of really cool tools. I can definitely say that PK Freeze ledge gaurading has surprised me at times online and it seems like he has a lot to kill power this game. Side note, I really like how even though Ness and Lucas have a couple of the same moves they play nothing like each other
 

JKincaid

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:ultlittlemac:... but he can’t edge guard at all. He couldn’t do it in sm4sh either, but edge guarding wasn’t great in general in that game. Edge guarding is very important in this game, and with his awful airials and even worse recoveries, you just can’t even try(or at least I didn’t) without fearing likely, if not inescapable death.
Little Mac can edge-guard, he just doesnt do it off stage. He's pretty good at 2-framing, since his smashes are fast and armored. He can armor through recovery options that beat two frames by hitting people trying to air dodge

Side note I'm starting to see :ultbowser: as a real sleeper. He's so good at platform pressure and edge guarding and he has so many damaging options to punish people for defending/evading/attacking him. He does struggle pretty heavily against *specific* zoners, like Snake and Palutena, but he generally has the tools to deal with any matchup. Hes definitely the most robust heavy in the game
 
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SapphSabre777

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It's been near a month now, and I'm starting to figure out the current pattern of how the game runs, officially. Defense is just awkwardly nerfed, and I've found more success being offensive as a defensive option (via movement and spacing) than actually using shield and OoS options. Shield drop got gutted hard, so any character that had to rely on the near-instant shield drop cancel with tilts is going to have a rough time in this game unless they are blessed with good OoS options, or their advantage state supercedes it. Rolls and spotdodges just seem disproportionately strong compared to shield/shield-drop right now, so those stats might be something to look at further down the road. But hey, they changed shield in 4, so we know that changes in mechanics isn't out of the question. For now, I've been looking at characters with the offensive meta in mind:

:ultwario:: Wario is just awesome in this game, and has a lot of attributes that'll propel him to bigger and better things in the future. His tilts (especially the new F-Tilt and re-designed U-Tilt) are nice buffs to add to his ground game, and either combo or KO to boot. His aerial speed is amazing and while the Bike respawn nerf gives him a mediocre recovery by the end of it, his air speed, Waft, and such can give him a good chance to come back. Chomp is awesome as well, allowing a character that already was hard to KO to heal himself, no matter how little the amount. The biggest takeaway from Wario, however, is his OoS game. Having two already stellar aerials in N-Air and F-Air be superb OoS options in both size and speed (F4 and F5, iirc; so anything -7 or beyond is unsafe, which is A LOT) and leading to big punishes, if not a KO, is really what pushes this character to his higher-tier status. This character is going to be fun to watch in the long run.

:ultsimon:/:ultrichter:: I'm starting to join the bandwagon of Simon and Richter not being as good as we once thought they'd be. Don't get me wrong, having such long range, an Up-B that is great OoS and has KO potential, and having such amazing projectiles that can make getting back onstage very oppressing...until you realize that there are dead-zones aplenty, shorter characters can crouch Cross and even catch Holy Water right after because of the endlag, and their recoveries are dismal and exploitable (though has decent enough vertical, I guess). Worst off, bar their Uppercut, their other OoS option is N-Air, which is a bootleg version of Palu's. I don't think they are bad, but the trends of aggression and their dead-zones, weak recovery and OoS, will hold them back by quite a bit.

:ultkirby:: So I come to a confession: I think Kirby is on the same boat as Junior right now in that he is "incomplete" in terms of essentials, but has some pros still on him that, when coupled with potential changes, could propel him up. After seeing Captain L and Komota some more, and reading some of Tim's points in the past, if there is any reason to pick him, it will likely be as a counterpick (though you could go with many others as well). Range, air speed, and an undertalked point of lack of OoS options is what holds him back a lot. Doesn't help that while parry helps him with swordies, the new shield is making his life worse with how powerful zoners can abuse slower-mobile characters like Kirby (coupled in with how awful RNG treats his Copy Abilities). But what he lacks in those departments right now, he has it all filled up in various, scattered areas. His size is underrated by a lot in that he can crouch so many things (they've made a list on the amount of stuff, and some of the things he can crouch are headscratchers), and his decent dash speed (almost as fast as Young Link's, in comparison) can make it easy to create over-commitments. That frame data he kept, while his range is stubby, is awkward to handle when Kirby can get an advantage, with all those F3-F4 moves hitting shield, especially D-Tilt. His air-to-ground game, most notably with F-Air 1 is just dumb, and overcommitting to hitting Kirby can lead to a slew of options that is just not wanted, especially with how hard some of his Smash attacks can be. While he has generally bad OoS, B-Air and U-Smash come to mind. B-Air because of it being F6 and quite some range (though you have to be turned around to do so), and U-Smash because it shares a trait with Olimar's that makes it so good: it's F12 (though its more towards aerials like F-Air when punishing F-Smashes and such). Does this mean he isn't the worst character? Who knows, but after further inspection, I cannot in good faith say he is in a tier of his own concurrently. He's still bad relative to the higher echelons of the cast, for sure, but he's on that awkward boat with Junior in that he lacks some vital, meta-defining attributes, but can be solid if he gets them. If. Enough of my mini-rant.
 

Jgod

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Oct 4, 2014
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I've been playing a few of the perceived "lower tiered" characters in my quest to Elite with every character.

Kirby is lacking, but nowhere near as bad as I was expecting. His fast normals and strong frame data make him dangerous up close, but his decent foxtrot allows him to circumvent the Smash 4 problem of being overly reliant on his buttons and struggling against similarly quick frame data or good spacing. His foxtrot allows him to weave a little up close, certainly not much but enough to stay out of range of CQC and find openings with a tilt or aerial. Don't tell anyone, but I've found that Stone is actually pretty good in disadvantage since everyone is so keen on pressing onstage advantage. Not to say you shouldn't use it very sporadically, but you'll net some cheesy kills if you give it a shot.

Mii Brawler is really fun with good damage output, but holy smokes can he not kill. I got a red lightning Fthrow at 200 on Incineroar and my jaw almost hit the floor when he Cross Chopped straight back. It seems they poured all his KO power into Fsmash and called it job done. At least the Side B 1 and Up B 3 can sometimes get stuff done? Both are massively punishable of course. His bark is much worse than his bite.

Bowser Jr is certainly improved. His poor frame data is still an issue, but being able to actually do something against shield helps him no end. His already-strong punish game is even stronger than in S4 where he was able to hit you for 50+ pretty consistently. Really impressed with his edgeguarding; Kart into jump into double jump allows him a lot of opportunities to smack the opponent with Fair and Up B covers huge distance on its own when it comes to getting back on the stage.



C-stick Nair is a lot harder in this game just in case you weren't aware. The input is so strict that it's all but taken out. You can actually do them through the new buffer by holding the C-stick in any direction and holding jump during some action like long landing lag or throwing, but it's useless compared to having C-stick Nair on lock during neutral.
Kirby isnt that dangerous up close. In facf Id say the Parry mechanic is some srs bs for a character that light.
One thing Ill note is peoole tend to emphasize Kirbgs air game when the ground is his actual forte so they get stuck on him not wrecking aerially as they may expect. His slow fall and horizontal movement makes his disadvantage very lukewarm but, like you said, stone comes in handy.

Overwhelming amount of kills I get are F-Smash because frankly straight whiff punishing with a pivot fsmash or ftilt is a lot more practical. Running up and jabbing as well is nice because stray parries are a pain in the ass.
Imo I like Kirby but I feel he is similar to little mac. An appealing ground game that isnt strong enough to make up for his shortcomings in other areas as a full package.
 

DrKatz

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Nov 25, 2018
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A lot of people are beginning to believe Falco was overhyped, but I’m starting to think he has a lot more to offer in this game than Smash 4. Check out this footage:

https://youtu.be/D364Pa_FPPo

I could be wrong, but I don’t think Falco was capable of these things in Smash 4. The string at 1:25 shows that Falco gets some powerful confirms off of FF Nair and Fair. Up tilt feels way more consistent in this game than Smash 4 as well and helps juggle people kid combo and function as a powerful anti air.

Bair also kills pretty early as well. I think Falco’s main weakness is difficulty in killing, but he can rack up a lot of damage. But a well placed bair offstage will end the stock most of the time. I think as the game evolves and people get more comfortable going offstage for edgeguards Falco will likely end up A or B tier. I’m not saying he’ll be S tier though, haha.
 

PK Gaming

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Gonna go against the grain and say that Little Mac is as bad as people perceive him to be. "Great on the ground, bad in the air" doesn't work when his ground game isn't even in the top 5. Recovery (while buffed) is still garbage in this game, making him incredibly fragile. And they took out dtilt setups which really, really sucks.

He's strictly a counterpick character, but I don't even know what matches he would dominate in. It feels like he beats people who don't know the matchup.
 

Ghidorah14

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Gonna go against the grain and say that Little Mac is as bad as people perceive him to be. "Great on the ground, bad in the air" doesn't work when his ground game isn't even in the top 5. Recovery (while buffed) is still garbage in this game, making him incredibly fragile. And they took out dtilt setups which really, really sucks.

He's strictly a counterpick character, but I don't even know what matches he would dominate in. It feels like he beats people who don't know the matchup.
Agreed 100%. If he had retained his combos from 4, I might think differently. But as it stands now, mac kind of has to settle for stray hits. And in a game where edgeguarding is stronger, he doesn't feel nearly as rewarding to play when he cant even convert stray hits into a combo.
 

trickroom

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I could be wrong, but I don’t think Falco was capable of these things in Smash 4. The string at 1:25 shows that Falco gets some powerful confirms off of FF Nair and Fair. Up tilt feels way more consistent in this game than Smash 4 as well and helps juggle people kid combo and function as a powerful anti air.

Bair also kills pretty early as well. I think Falco’s main weakness is difficulty in killing, but he can rack up a lot of damage. But a well placed bair offstage will end the stock most of the time. I think as the game evolves and people get more comfortable going offstage for edgeguards Falco will likely end up A or B tier. I’m not saying he’ll be S tier though, haha.
I’ve heard Falco players say that his combo game is only the same, but I still think he’s at least a little better than how he was in Sm4sh for othee reasons. His edgeguards are strong, his back air is INSANELY powerful, and I think we’ll start to see how useful his buffed lasers are. I’m not sure if he’ll climb up to high tier, considering that most of his old weaknesses are still there, but he’s not going to be as low as he formerly was.
 

Heracr055

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Little Mac feels less dominant on the ground than in Smash 4 tbh, at least in my experience against him so far. And I really don't think being able to up B after side B is that great a help to him. In fact, the only thing that might help him out more in this game wrt recovery is directional AD. So I can get behind him being worse in this game despite all the theory of being able to tilt out of run, recover better and such.

Esit: PKGaming mentioning Mac losing dtilt setups, lol that really sucks for him
 
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Rizen

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Adding to the Mac attack, it seems like the new, more inclusive, stage list doesn't do him any favors.

2 questions:
Did Bowser lose the ability to mash during upB for more height?
What's the difference between Simon and Richter?
 

E.G.G.M.A.N.

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Having overly long combos actually removes competitiveness from the game because you are removing the interaction between players. You have many examples of this from Smash 4 Bayonetta to Melee wobbling and chain grabs or pretty much the entire combo game of 64.
I think the perfect balance is 2-3 hit combo strings at a time max. to make it exciting for the viewers without sacrificing too much competitiveness. Any more follow-ups after the 3rd one should at least require a read or 50/50 that give your opponent the possibility to escape if he makes the correct decision. Which is pretty much exactly what we have now in Ultimate.
Sorry, but that's simply not true. If "overly long combos" means "anything more than 3 hits" to you, I've got news: there are plenty of games with longer combos, and they all work fine; I even play some of them myself. Combos incentivize people to aggressively approach each other and try to close out stocks early rather than slowly chipping each other to high percents and then switching to "Hail Mary b-air" kill fishing mode, as was the norm in the previous games. That is the true purpose of combos, it has nothing to do with increasing/decreasing competitiveness. If anything, it makes each interaction matter more, rather than having a bunch of relatively unimportant interactions that reset to neutral every few seconds, leading up to a handful of important ones, i.e. the one that closes out the stock.
 
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Untouch

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Adding to the Mac attack, it seems like the new, more inclusive, stage list doesn't do him any favors.

2 questions:
Did Bowser lose the ability to mash during upB for more height?
What's the difference between Simon and Richter?
1. I don't believe so, they may have made it worse, they made WFT's worse.
2. Simon's holy water is fire so explodes bombs, Richter's is Aura so it damages red Pikmin.
 

Nobie

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It might be optimism on my part, but what I see from early Smash Ultimate is not a game that's "all about neutral" or "all about aggression" or "all about turtling." With over 70 characters and DLC on the way, my prediction is that how the game looks and plays is going to change drastically depending on the matchup.

Let's say you're Sonic and you're fighting Pichu. Sonic is faster (of course), and Pichu self-damages. Just by trying to approach, Pichu takes damage. Why wouldn't Sonic play a more defensive game, or try to camp Pichu out if he has the lead? Pichu is a terror up-close and can get early KOs.

But if it's Falco vs. Wolf, it should come as no surprise that they'll be comboing each other all the live long day. They're combo food, and they're good at combos.

In this environment (if that's how it's going to be), what I hope for is players and spectators who understand this, and refuse to enjoy anything that's not their ideal style of match.

For Simon and Richter, I think what we might be seeing is that "brainless" Belmonts falling by the wayside. People want them to be unstoppable fortresses, but based on the games they're from, they're supposed to be a thinking player's character who has to plan far in advance where and how they're going to attack. The big thing about early Castlevania games is that the whip has a very intentional delay to keep you from just spamming it without thought. It's not clear if this can translate successfully to Smash, but the future is likely to be in a heavily cerebral style.

Basically, if Ranai played a Belmont, people would have to watch the hell out.
 

MartinAW4

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Sorry, but that's simply not true. If "overly long combos" means "anything more than 3 hits" to you, I've got news: there are plenty of games with longer combos, and they all work fine; I even play some of them myself. Combos incentivize people to aggressively approach each other and try to close out stocks early rather than slowly chipping each other to high percents and then switching to "Hail Mary b-air" kill fishing mode, as was the norm in the previous games. That is the true purpose of combos, it has nothing to do with increasing/decreasing competitiveness. If anything, it makes each interaction matter more, rather than having a bunch of relatively unimportant interactions that reset to neutral every few seconds, leading up to a handful of important ones, i.e. the one that closes out the stock.
3 is just the ideal amount. I gave examples for what I consider overly long combos like Smash 4 Bayo or Melee wobbling and chain grabs. If one hit can lead to death, then going for anything but the safest options becomes too risky. And if your character does not have a reliable way to avoid the 0-death, they instantly become unviable.

Also the fewer neutral interactions lead to a kill, the more variation you will see in the results. Imagine you are the better player and can win neutral roughly 60% of the time vs your opponent. If there are 100 neutral exchanges in a match, you are likely to win every game even if you get unlucky and instead of winning the expected 60 exchanges you win only 55 or 52. And each game is likely to come down to the last stock for both players.
But if there are only 3 exchanges per game, you could realistically get even 3 stocked if the opponent manages to get their 40% neutral win 3 times in a row.

However too few combos are not ideal either even if they produce the most consistent results. In such a metagame comebacks become much rarer and accidental SDs can easily cost you the whole match. It's also boring to watch and unsatisfying for the players to put in so much work in winning neutral and be rewarded with just one hit.

That is why a healthy balance is the best option which I think is around 3 hits per combo. This lets you rack up a good amount of damage per combo, gives you enough room for creativity in your follow ups and gets you the stock in around 5 neutral wins. More hits is not necessarily bad as long as they are weaker and do not lead to overwhelming stage advantage. I just often see opinions that the more combos there are, the better the game will be which I disagree with.
 

NotLiquid

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Smash Conference United is now under way, a bunch of top US players are there including ZeRo, MKLeo, MVD, Dabuz, etc.
https://www.twitch.tv/MVG_League

Salem's Link almost got sent to losers by Hungrybox's Jigglypuff in a nail-bitingly close set.
 
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Tri Knight

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Smash Conference United is now under way, a bunch of top US players are there including ZeRo, MKLeo, MVD, Dabuz, etc.
https://www.twitch.tv/MVG_League

Salem's Link almost got sent to losers by Hungrybox's Jigglypuff in a nail-bitingly close set.
Salem's going full Link?

He's talked a lot about his Link. He thinks Link is top tier material so I'd like to see him back it up today.
 
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Kellojolly

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To his defense, HungryBox played really well. The problem is, we've seen Zero vs Hungrybox's puff and Zero essentially destroyed Hungrybox throughout the stream. I am still happy to see Link being played by Salem though...I do wish he used his Bomb a little better. That being said, I am excited to see Zero's Cloud since he was destroying couple pros few days ago and his Cloud game was looking amazing.
 
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