Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[bc1910]

That's a good find and pretty useful, though I don't know why you would want to stay in shield against a revenge Incineroar in the first place, you are just asking to get clothesline'd to the blastzone lol.

This. Shielding against Incineroar is a horrible option regardless of Revenge. I don’t see this Revenge shieldbreak stuff benefitting him against players that already know how to fight him.

Any opinions about Luigi yet? As I think his grab game has improved, or stayed much the same from Smash 4. He can’t recover well, but he might be the best Mario brother now.

I also think Ganondorf is getting legitimately scary. He also has results. Just a few 3-4 hits, and you’re gone. Incineroar gets praised for its stage pressence, but Ganondorf is up there easily as well. He feels quite fast to.

Am also certain with all the popularity the character enjoys, backed with results and a huge list of options and general buffs all over, DK is definitely a High Tier, or potential Top Tier in this game. Crazy as it sounds, results won’t lie.

Luigi seems pretty scary. Fighting him feels similar to before. Mind you, the 0-death from grab doesn’t seem to warrant the fear you would expect as his grab is pretty bad; the Kurogane tweets about his grab being as safe as a regular grab are misleading as it has an awful 14f startup resulting in it being a much higher overall commitment.

Ganon’s overall worse normals (aside from SH aerials) and recovery make him a little less scary than Incineroar in my book. He’s significantly buffed but perhaps the worst heavy. D3 is a contender, but his greater survivability, multiple jumps and options against projectiles make him better in more situations, even if he’s less likely than Ganon to occasionally faceroll the opponent in less than 10 seconds.

 

[Browny]

This. Shielding against Incineroar is a horrible option regardless of Revenge. I don’t see this Revenge shieldbreak stuff benefitting him against players that already know how to fight him.

You're looking at it the wrong way. The whole triangle of grabs -> shield -> attack -> grabs no longer applies when Incineroar has enough revenge because Lariat beats them all. A 5-frame, invincible kill move which is unpunishable on block is nothing to be scoffed at.

And as for dtilt, you don't just have a long-ranged downtilt that goes from -12 on block, to +4 and go 'no big deal'.

 

[bc1910]

You're looking at it the wrong way. The whole triangle of grabs -> shield -> attack -> grabs no longer applies when Incineroar has enough revenge because Lariat beats them all. A 5-frame, invincible kill move which is unpunishable on block is nothing to be scoffed at.

And as for dtilt, you don't just have a long-ranged downtilt that goes from -12 on block, to +4 and go 'no big deal'.

I don’t disagree with you at all, I just question the effectiveness of blocking against Incineroar in general. I find myself struggling to punish his well-spaced pokes in general, so I wouldn’t be inclined to block more against inherently more threatening options. Not to take away from the strength of the options themselves though, this could be down to me as a player.

 

[PK Gaming]

As someone who regularly plays against a Wario main (since Brawl), the level of concentration needed to succeed against that character is pretty demanding. That sort of intense concentration is necessary to succeed in Smash in general, but Wario punishes even the most minor of mistakes (such as here) so you can't get away with not playing perfectly.

Fighting a good version of that character in tournament finals can't have been easy. Paradoxically, I think Wario makes your opponent play better by forcing them to think about every single one of their moves. Finding that perfect balance of playing safe and patiently but also not overly passive and non-committal is the mindset needed to beat this character. At least, in my experience.

Definitely one of the more interesting fighters in this game.

 

[FruitLoop]

This. Shielding against Incineroar is a horrible option regardless of Revenge. I don’t see this Revenge shieldbreak stuff benefitting him against players that already know how to fight him.



Luigi seems pretty scary. Fighting him feels similar to before. Mind you, the 0-death from grab doesn’t seem to warrant the fear you would expect as his grab is pretty bad; the Kurogane tweets about his grab being as safe as a regular grab are misleading as it has an awful 14f startup resulting in it being a much higher overall commitment.

Ganon’s overall worse normals (aside from SH aerials) and recovery make him a little less scary than Incineroar in my book. He’s significantly buffed but perhaps the worst heavy. D3 is a contender, but his greater survivability, multiple jumps and options against projectiles make him better in more situations, even if he’s less likely than Ganon to occasionally faceroll the opponent in less than 10 seconds.

Dedede is definitely worse than Ganon. He is forced to air camp and fish for random aerials or downtilt or grab through hoping that the opponent tries to commit to an attack. Dedede still has the worst air speed meaning that his air camping is super linear and it makes him struggle against most opponents with good anti airs or any opponent that knows how to play patiently rendering dedede’s neutral as being very below average . He doesn’t really have ganon’s scary sh aerials and doesn’t really have nearly as great of a punish game as a heavy alongside the fact that Dedede has surprisingly unreliable kill power. He depends a lot on getting smashed off of a Gordo ledge trap when Gordos can be challenged with any moves or he has to pray for his slow back air to hit. Dedede is definitely overrated and isn’t as good as Ganon.

 

[bc1910]

A very convincing Greninja display by Lea vs Shuton's Olimar in the finals of Tamisuma 7:

Online, so take with a pinch of salt, although Japan's WiFi is very good and online would probably benefit a character like Olimar more than Greninja anyway as he doesn't rely on precise combos as much. Things are looking promising for froggo though. Substitute just has so many applications (countering the attached Pikmin is genius) and the slowdown effect is nuts. I think it might be the second best counter in the game behind Revenge.

Worth noting that Venia managed 13th at LMM as well coming from a pretty low 35th seed (I believe his first match in Top 64 was against Tweek).

 

[Gérard Majax]

Speaking of worst heavy, has accomplished anything so far? Haven't heard much of him since early December when everyone thought he was broke, but I have troubles seeing how he is supposed to play neutral against any competent player (+ characters ofc) aware of his gimmicks. Everything he does is ridiculously slow apart from a few good buttons (fair, utilt, uair I guess even though it has 3 years of lag for some reason), canonball has too much lag to be really threatening, Crown at least covers more space but is slow, predictable, reactable, and gl hf if you lose it and your opponent starts throwing it around. Dthrow won't lead to a kill until 100% at least . His recovery is still above average thanks to the ridiculous hitbox but it's definitely beatable from the side by a few chars. Also he doesn't get much horizontal momentum with it, which makes it even more predictable (did like 70% to a K Rool offstage as ridley once because he was just too far on the side to dodge fireballs).

I guess his perks include living forever, his ability to take trades easily thanks to his armor, nair as a landing option to beat hitboxes (but it has way too much lag to be used recklessly), and having some tools against zoners with 2 projectiles and a reflector (although the animal crossing gang gives 0 ****s and will just pocket your crown ad vitam aeternam), but I fail to see how he is supposed to fight against patient players. Unless I'm missing some insane vacuum crown set-up which are actually doable in a real match and aren't the result of your opponent randomly running into hitboxes.

 

[Rizen]

Speaking of worst heavy, has accomplished anything so far? Everything he does is ridiculously slow

His frame data is not bad at all. In particular:
Jab frame 4
Utilt f5
Usmash f6
DA f7
Nair f7
Uair f7
Fair f11
Those are all really good for a heavyweight and it's not like the rest is terrible either.

I've seen him in a few grand finals but idk how big the events were. We really need a tournament results thread.

There's no way he's the worst heavy. IMO the best heavyweight is either him or DK.

 

[Game7a1]

We really need a tournament results thread.

Here's one. Quite a few tournaments have been recorded in there.

 

[Lavani]

Frame data is more than just startup. is a character with tilts laggier than some characters' smash attacks, smashes that take over a second to complete, and the potential to be shieldbroken during attack animations. Heck, even if you only want to look at startups every heavyweight has at least two attacks that are 7f or faster, with Ganondorf being the worst in that regard.

 

[Rizen]

Frame data is more than just startup. is a character with tilts laggier than some characters' smash attacks, smashes that take over a second to complete, and the potential to be shieldbroken during attack animations. Heck, even if you only want to look at startups every heavyweight has at least two attacks that are 7f or faster, with Ganondorf being the worst in that regard.

I never said startup is the end all attribute of frame data. But you can't brush aside how good K.Rool's startup data is. Frame 4 jab? That's ridiculous. I didn't even get into his armor which comes out faster than many of his attacks. K.Rool does have a lot of commitment and the character is designed around trading.

 

[Phosphophyllite]

is going to get a lot better in both results and playstyle once the people who main him learn to stop relying so much on his positives. Yes his armour is very useful, yes his projectile game gives him options no other super heavy has, yes his bury gives him good kill options, but I see so many K.Rool players trying to abuse this and it's always their downfall. They become so reliant on their tools, that when they get countered by patient play or someone simply having better mobility or a reflector, they have no answer to it and get blown up. There's a lot of things K.Rool players need to get the hang of, knowing how to deal with their crown being used against them, properly utilising the neutral special beyond "The thing you use after you've used side special", properly taking full advantage of their moveset beyond "I'll fish for dtilt/up smash/up air and nothing else". Once the mains start getting a handle of this, K.Rool is going to look a lot better overall.

 

[trickroom]

'Worst heavy' in my eyes is still King Dedede. The buffs he got are cool I guess, but as mentioned earlier he's still extremely slow in the air, making him way more restricted than DK or Bowser are. He is very laggy even as heavies go, has some of the most trouble with projectile characters, (sure Inhale will beat someone standing at the other side of the stage mashing B, but someone like Young Link will just be running up and punishing him for it), still has "meh" grab profit when he needs to rely on it more than his counterparts, and is mostly left fishing for mistakes and overextensions with his tilts and aerials. Though it has gotten better for him, he still is like Sm4sh in that he's a heavy who has a lot of trouble killing, which definitely shouldn't be happening.


I think if your candidate for worst heavy isn't Dedede, you better be making a damn good case for Ganon or Ridley.

 

[Rizen]

I scrolled through the tournament results thread and found a compiled tier list:
https://imgur.com/9Ga9Jlx
but it's affected by popularity and doesn't take into account how many of these characters were used total. There are more recent results so take it with a big grain of salt.

A trend I've noticed is seems to consistantly outplace . Maybe we should ask ourselves if Pikachu simply gets outclassed by his little brother?

 

[Untouch]

I scrolled through the tournament results thread and found a compiled tier list:
https://imgur.com/9Ga9Jlx
but it's affected by popularity and doesn't take into account how many of these characters were used total. There are more recent results so take it with a big grain of salt.

A trend I've noticed is seems to consistantly outplace . Maybe we should ask ourselves if Pikachu simply gets outclassed by his little brother?

The problem is that these lists don't track how many times the characters have shown up in tournaments, just the results (which obviously there's a reason for).
I don't see Pikachu showing up at ALL, only really ESAM plays him.

 

[trickroom]

A trend I've noticed is seems to consistantly outplace . Maybe we should ask ourselves if Pikachu simply gets outclassed by his little brother?

No rudeness intended, but you're late to the party. The consensus from a lot of people (correctly, imo) is that Pichu simply is better than Pikachu. I'm sure ESAM will debate it, but most people are in agreement, such as Captain L (https://twitter.com/captainlpika/status/1079849623869505536 ):
"better killing and damage output. Neutral is a little worse but Pichu has roll cancel grab."

Of course the word of top players isn't gospel, but Pichu being better seems pretty clear cut considering the results and how you'd expect it to be on paper. Moves like Pichu's ftilt speak for themselves.

 

[Tri Knight]

No rudeness intended, but you're late to the party. The consensus from a lot of people (correctly, imo) is that Pichu simply is better than Pikachu. I'm sure ESAM will debate it, but most people are in agreement, such as Captain L (https://twitter.com/captainlpika/status/1079849623869505536 ):
"better killing and damage output. Neutral is a little worse but Pichu has roll cancel grab."

Of course the word of top players isn't gospel, but Pichu being better seems pretty clear cut considering the results and how you'd expect it to be on paper. Moves like Pichu's ftilt speak for themselves.

God damn that F-tilt....

 

[Gérard Majax]

I never said startup is the end all attribute of frame data. But you can't brush aside how good K.Rool's startup data is. Frame 4 jab? That's ridiculous. I didn't even get into his armor which comes out faster than many of his attacks. K.Rool does have a lot of commitment and the character is designed around trading.

Yeah his startup data is fine (should have clarified that I was more talking about ending lag than startup, mb).
I still fail to see how he is supposed to play neutral with the amount of lag he has on everything. Having fast startup means that you are more likely to win hitbox contests in close combat situations (and even then, his startup data isn't that impressive, everyone and their mother has a frame 4 jab or faster) but it's way harder to use them if a miss means a guaranteed punish from your opponent. What moves can he press safely in neutral at mid range? Utilt, fair? Sure if you press ftilt and your opponent is in range you win, but when every button you press is a 50/50 it starts becoming an issue.

He can't force the opponent to stay at long range because his projectiles are easy to avoid (+ some chars still beat him at long range (ridley, villager, isabelle) or will just charge their specials then run at you (m2, cloud)), and he doesn't have much to cover any approach (yay dash shield! but he is slow!), so if the opponent wants to play at whiff-punish range they will.
Having a below average neutral isn't an issue when your reward is busted, but from what I've seen K-rool reward for winning neutral is pretty average.

is going to get a lot better in both results and playstyle once the people who main him learn to stop relying so much on his positives. Yes his armour is very useful, yes his projectile game gives him options no other super heavy has, yes his bury gives him good kill options, but I see so many K.Rool players trying to abuse this and it's always their downfall. They become so reliant on their tools, that when they get countered by patient play or someone simply having better mobility or a reflector, they have no answer to it and get blown up. There's a lot of things K.Rool players need to get the hang of, knowing how to deal with their crown being used against them, properly utilising the neutral special beyond "The thing you use after you've used side special", properly taking full advantage of their moveset beyond "I'll fish for dtilt/up smash/up air and nothing else". Once the mains start getting a handle of this, K.Rool is going to look a lot better overall.

What tools are they supposed to use though? It's not a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious to see what this char has to offer beside armor, 2 projectiles, and a throw confirm at 120 (if your mashing is correct). Maybe an above average ledgetrapping/edgegarding with his projectiles, aerials (bair looks cool) and recovery, but it's not as scary as ganon at burst range, bowser running around like a madman, ridley throwing hitboxes everywhere, incineroar everything or dk waving his intangible arms around. Yeah I'm not listing DDD bc he is probably kinda bad lol, but at least he can spam bair relatively safely and dtilt is hard to react to.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

No rudeness intended, but you're late to the party. The consensus from a lot of people (correctly, imo) is that Pichu simply is better than Pikachu. I'm sure ESAM will debate it, but most people are in agreement, such as Captain L (https://twitter.com/captainlpika/status/1079849623869505536 ):
"better killing and damage output. Neutral is a little worse but Pichu has roll cancel grab."

Of course the word of top players isn't gospel, but Pichu being better seems pretty clear cut considering the results and how you'd expect it to be on paper. Moves like Pichu's ftilt speak for themselves.

Something to keep in mind especially in early release results is that popular and newer characters will be seen more in usage at first for that very reason, they are something new. Pichu isn't new to smash obviously but being made from a joke character in it's only other appearance since 2001 into an actual character makes more people want to try it out in bracket. Diddy right now is lacking in results despite obviously still being a good character because everyone is busy with the shiny new toys (or returning toys) and multitude of changes other characters got.

That isn't to say Pichu isn't better than Pikachu but I don't see Pichu's popularity sticking for long term. That self damage mechanic will steer some people to Pikachu slowly over time.

 

[ad516]

Something to keep in mind especially in early release results is that popular and newer characters will be seen more in usage at first for that very reason, they are something new. Pichu isn't new to smash obviously but being made from a joke character in it's only other appearance since 2001 into an actual character makes more people want to try it out in bracket. Diddy right now is lacking in results despite obviously still being a good character because everyone is busy with the shiny new toys (or returning toys) and multitude of changes other characters got.

That isn't to say Pichu isn't better than Pikachu but I don't see Pichu's popularity sticking for long term. That self damage mechanic will steer some people to Pikachu slowly over time.

I disagree honestly, Pichu being so small and hard to hit makes him uniquely viable especially in an environment so centered around hard hitters like Inkling and Chrom

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I disagree honestly, Pichu being so small and hard to hit makes him uniquely viable especially in an environment so centered around hard hitters like Inkling and Chrom

I didn't say Pichu wouldn't be viable, they are a very good character that barring patches or discovery of some new tech should remain a viable character but I will say that some current Pichu's or future Pichu's may be dissuaded from using it over Pikachu in the future because of its weaknesses like self damage and being so incredibly light. Being hard to hit is great and all but when the character will add damage on itself trying to hit you then you don't have to worry about not being able to hit it but a few times a stock.

 

[williamsga555]

I'm still not sure where I'd rank D3 at, but those who refer to him as easily the worst heavy are likely still playing him like it's Smash 4.

D3 is a much more grounded character in Ultimate because the engine changes allow him to play grounded without just fishing for shield grabs. The ability to tilt out of a dash masks how hideous his mobility was in the previous game because now he can play neutral without being forced to air camp for bair. He can actually utilize his commanding (if still laggy) space control through tilts without obviously telegraphing it through walking around. Inhale buffs (and not just the new reflecting properties) are a major boon as he now has an answer for spaced enemy shields. Frame 3 jumpsquat gives him two OOS options compared to the zero he had before (full hop or SH nair). His jab now (mostly) links properly for an easy 17+% with respectable finishing power for a jab.

But the biggest change is with offstage pressure. In 4, D3 was amazing at ledgetrapping. In Ultimate, he's amazing at harassing people offstage thanks to the universal nerf to airdodging. If you go watch some matches from either Big D or Mike from the past few weeks, you should realize how absurd run-off fair has become. The setup is straightforward:

1. Throw gordo directly at them offstage
2. They either recover high (up air stuffs any approach from up and away) or airdodge (free run off fair or time to set up a ledgetrap)

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that D3 is some sleeper candidate for best heavy. Instead, I'm saying that I'm not convinced he's clearly the weakest of the heavies yet. Once people get away from air camping and transition more towards edgeguarding over 4's ledgetrapping, I think they'll realize just how improved he is (even if he's still pretty notably flawed).

 

[The_Bookworm]

Going through the YouTube, suddenly a lot of the SmashTuber content creators have uploaded something related to Wendy specifically. Can someone explain to me why this is the case?

 

[Fastblade5035]

Going through the YouTube, suddenly a lot of the SmashTuber content creators have uploaded something related to Wendy specifically. Can someone explain to me why this is the case?

Just a humorous widespread collab to raise awareness of different content creators

 

[Y2Kay]

A very convincing Greninja display by Lea vs Shuton's Olimar in the finals of Tamisuma 7:

Online, so take with a pinch of salt, although Japan's WiFi is very good and online would probably benefit a character like Olimar more than Greninja anyway as he doesn't rely on precise combos as much. Things are looking promising for froggo though. Substitute just has so many applications (countering the attached Pikmin is genius) and the slowdown effect is nuts. I think it might be the second best counter in the game behind Revenge.

Worth noting that Venia managed 13th at LMM as well coming from a pretty low 35th seed (I believe his first match in Top 64 was against Tweek).

Yeah Venia’s First Top 64 match was tweek. In losers he beat James(Chrom) and Venom(Ken) before losing to Gen(Palu).

Happy New Years y’all

 

[Lord Dio]

Personally, I don't see a future where K Rool is successful in a singles format.
He's slow, his zoning options fail against the majority of the cast, he can't approach, he's combo food, his recovery is easy to take advantage of (horizontally speaking).
Against the majority of the cast, he's going to either get zoned out or comboed to death, and be unable to do much about it.
Easily the worst heavy imo

 

[Rizen]

Personally, I don't see a future where K Rool is successful in a singles format.
He's slow, his zoning options fail against the majority of the cast, he can't approach, he's combo food, his recovery is easy to take advantage of (horizontally speaking).
Against the majority of the cast, he's going to either get zoned out or comboed to death, and be unable to do much about it.
Easily the worst heavy imo

-The story of every super heavyweight, more or less. Although I do think DK's the best of the lot.

 

[trickroom]

Personally, I don't see a future where K Rool is successful in a singles format.
He's slow, his zoning options fail against the majority of the cast, he can't approach, he's combo food, his recovery is easy to take advantage of (horizontally speaking).
Against the majority of the cast, he's going to either get zoned out or comboed to death, and be unable to do much about it.
Easily the worst heavy imo

These are the flaws that befall every heavy, except King K. Rool does a better job of mitigating them than his peers:

- The 'zoning options' -- bad as you think they are, he at least HAS them at all, which is more than any others can say. Blunderbuss is obviously a mediocre move reserved mostly for mixups and occasional frame trapping/ledge coverage, but his crown throw is fast and all around solid for forcing options and creating approach openings.
- He is combo food to be sure, but the insane super armor on nair gives him the second-best 'combo breaker' move among heavies (except for Incineroar thanks to Revenge)
- You have to knock him really far horizontally for his recovery not to reach -- most of the time this will only happen when he is already at a high percent. His recovery isn't perfect, but it is safe from vertical edgeguarding (unless you're fighting Villager) and requires a lot of force to be abused horizontally. The only heavy who will get back to stage more often than K. Rool (ignoring SDs) is Dedede.

The most valid argument against him is the approach issues, but again Ganon and Dedede (and Ridley, kinda) suffer in those departments too -- and have less elsewhere going for them. With his competition being Ganon, Dedede, and maybe Ridley (it's safe to say IMO that DK/Bowser/Incineroar are too good to be in the running for worst), K. Rool's super armor, grab game, projectile game, down tilt, and forward tilt keep him from the title of worst.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

so...how have the Kid Icarus characters been doing overall? I’ve always been seeing placed as a high tier character while seems to switch between top and high tiers, but for some reason I’ve seen inconsistently placed in high, mid, and low tiers...kinda wish I could find all the early tier lists to show what I mean, but that’s a lot of searching to do

 

[J0eyboi]

- The 'zoning options' -- bad as you think they are, he at least HAS them at all, which is more than any others can say.

sorry, what

Ridley's tail is a massive disjoint. DK has huge limbs and arm intangibility on most of his grounded moves. Bowser has the best pivot grab in the game. Ike literally has a sword. DDD basically has a sword, and he has gordos.

Blunderbuss is obviously a mediocre move reserved mostly for mixups and occasional frame trapping/ledge coverage, but his crown throw is fast*

*frame 26

and all around solid for forcing options and creating approach openings.

if its main uses are creating pressure and openings to approach, it isn't exactly a zoning tool, now is it?

Also, Crown is easily the worst boomerang in the game. Armor doesn't save it from its 63 total frames, not to mention it turning into a very powerful item if you don't manage to catch it on the return.

- He is combo food to be sure, but the insane super armor on nair gives him the second-best 'combo breaker' move among heavies (except for Incineroar thanks to Revenge)

If you're counting Revenge, it's minimum 4th, behind Revenge (f3), Incineroar Nair (f5), and Lariat(f5 and invulnerable 5-6). Also, "best among heavies" doesn't mean "good", and K.Rool's physics and hitbox make him one of the most comboable heavies, maybe behind Bowser.

- You have to knock him really far horizontally for his recovery not to reach -- most of the time this will only happen when he is already at a high percent. His recovery isn't perfect, but it is safe from vertical edgeguarding

It's really not. It covers above and behind him pretty well, but does a significantly worse job of protecting above and in front of him. It's also weak to pretty much any projectile that can be shot downwards, up to and including his own crown. Additionally, it has basically no mixup potential. If K. Rool is offstage, he's going to go low and up-B; the only question is whether or not you are able to do anything about that, and people are learning more ways for more characters to do things about that as time goes on.

 

[Cheryl~]

so...how have the Kid Icarus characters been doing overall? I’ve always been seeing placed as a high tier character while seems to switch between top and high tiers, but for some reason I’ve seen inconsistently placed in high, mid, and low tiers...kinda wish I could find all the early tier lists to show what I mean, but that’s a lot of searching to do

Palutena is obviously really popular atm but I feel like both of the Pits are going under the radar for just how solid they are in this game imo. While they still have to work for their kills it's not nearly as much of a problem for them as in Smash 4 because their aerials can actually kill reasonably this time around and deal solid damage. They still have their throw combos, F-Throw is still a solid kill throw at the ledge at high percents (might be stronger than in Smash 4 but I'm not sure on that), and both of their arrows are great. While Pit has a slight edge over Dark Pit still because his arrows are really good for gimping recoveries (which is more effective this game than in Smash 4, another big boon to them), Dark Pit's arrows received a massive buff to their damage and knockback, making the tradeoff much less noticeable as an uncharged arrow does like 7% which is pretty nuts for any projectile that's that fast. Fully charged Dark Pit arrows can deal near 20% and as I said, their knockback is much better in this game so they're much better for getting a kill on someone near the edge of the screen. For those reasons I'd say Pit and Dark Pit are still really close to each other in terms of viability even if Pit's slightly better because of the improved gimping in Ultimate. And yeah all three of them are really good in this game which is great to see coming from Smash 4 where Palutena barely functioned and the Pits were too honest for their own good.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I think the reason the Pits are going unremarked upon is because despite their buffs, they're still fundamentally pretty "honest" characters. This isn't exactly a hot take or anything, I'm sure, but they don't have any big gimmick or "wow factor" to catch attention.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

A couple more tier lists for the pile. Here's Pandarien:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Anti's:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Nothing too new. Cloud and Yoshi seem to be all over the place. Likewise with Incineroar and Ridley and the heavies in general. Pokemon Trainer, Wolf, R.O.B. seem to be hanging out on the fringe. Mewtwo is there too, without many results from what I can tell.

If anyone knows how I can embed the tweets, let me know! edit: vvv thanks!

 

[J0eyboi]

If anyone knows how I can embed the tweets, let me know!

Open the "insert" menu (it's the "..." one) and press Media.

 

[Rizen]

[crown]
*frame 26



if its main uses are creating pressure and openings to approach, it isn't exactly a zoning tool, now is it?

Also, Crown is easily the worst boomerang in the game. Armor doesn't save it from its 63 total frames, not to mention it turning into a very powerful item if you don't manage to catch it on the return.

*Knockback based armor on f6-23. Crown's more of a counter to other zoning options; it goes through everything. Belmont's spamming cross? Crown it.

K.Rool's f4 jab is huge. Back in SSB4 we had weekly low tier tournaments as an event. I tried Ganon (jab f7) but didn't do too well. After switching to Charizard (jab f4) I did a lot better and got 3rd place. Charizard has good buttons. If you end up next to an opponent, which happens frequently, having an option to out button them is very important. Jab's a fast GTFO, option out of dash, after landing it denies pursuits... it's big.

K.Rool's recovery weakness is being blown out of proportion. He can recover low and power up to the ledge. Especially if we're talking "worst heavy" where characters lack pretty hard in the recovery department or if not they have exploitable recoveries. He can also go high and Nair down. And he weighs almost as much as bowser.

 

[Aaron1997]

Ok so I going to do this write up on to clear any misinformation on him since opinions have been back and forth. There's people that think he's great and there's people that think he's bottom tier. The TLDR of this is that its a big improvement from smash 4 but also he's very different with key parts of his Move set being reworked.

First of all, lets go over the Nerfs first so everyone will understand why the People are calling bottom tier.

1. Only one Z-drop
2. Trampoline isn't unblockable
3. You can destroy trampoline
4. Limited Air dodge's make's his camping way more unsafe

So yea these are so very big nerfs, for Smash 4 Pac. In the context of Ultimate, these don't really mean that much.

1. This game is to fast for Z-drop spam. Take's to long to set-up. Though it does make him more predicable when he has Bell at Kill %

2. This hasn't done anything. Unblockable trampoline was a band aid fix for his grab. It was not even that good since it was unsafe on hit till high %s

3. Some people say that this make's his recovery much worse since you can go off any destroy it but realistically, If you can go off and destroy it, Pac was 99% dead anyway. I've only been killed by this once and that was to Snake's Nikita. Though this does mean that the Mac MU is not instant win anymore.

4. This is actually not as bad I though it would be.


Now let's look at the buffs.

1. Lol Grab is fixed thank god, He even got Combo Throw to. And its not just Up-throw -> Up-air

2. His damage output has been increased big time. 9% F-air, 14% B-air, 12% Up-air, 12% N-air, 11% Apple, 14% Melon, 10.8% Galaxian it's basically Pre-patch now, 19% Key, 11% on the Hydrant spawn and 16% on launched Hydrants.

3. F-air is dumb now. Safe on-hit unlike smash 4, Combo's into it's self, Carries people off-stage to gimp, Tech Chases, etc.

4. D-air is way more useable, Less Landing lag and the new angle is great, kill's people near the leadge

5. N-air may have got a nerf to kill power but the new angle mean's Landing N-air will set up F-air strings

6. D-tilt no long advancing Pac forward mean's its safer when spaced

7. Fruits got a bunch of priority Buffs. Mean's you can't abuse Disjoint. Also mean's you can out camp character's he could before (Mewtwo)

8. Hydrant HP went to 16.3%, SH Aerial's can't kill it

9. Fruit charge's faster

10. Side-B travel's futher at all charge's

What does this mean? He's not really much of a gimmick anymore. He doesn't have to rely on people being bad anymore. Shield nerf's make him even better while not affect much at all since he always had great OOS Aerial options and he could never shield grab anyway. The combo throw's also solve one of his biggest problem is that his damage output was bad unless you hit galaxain otherwise you got out rewarded by every top tier. It made his neutral very easy to play around. With the Combo throw, you have to play around grab and his Galaxain.

Speaking fruits, there's a new mechanic. In Smash 4 if you re-grab fruit, you could Z-drop or throw it. In Ultimate, you can recycle them now. For example, If I have Galaxain in hand, I can press Neutral Special and charge fruit from Galaxain onward. It also mean's he can throw Galaxain , Melon , Bell infinitely.

#SSBU_PAC HUGE Pac-Man buff

Pac-Man can now recycle the fruit he's holding.

The majority has decided to name this tech "Fruit Recycle" pic.twitter.com/cGZPQ5dduX

— PurpleDebo (@Purple_Debo) November 30, 2018

I'll mention his new Up-tilt. I think it's net neutral. It's just as Disjoined as old up-tilt but trade's Kill power for combo's. Unfortunately it doesn't have a hitbox in front of him but has more range above him. It's alright at harassing people on Platform's. Can be also be used to juggle.

Edgeguarding is improved with the new Air dodges. Not only is F-air now a powerful gimping tool, Hydrant drop's are way more deadly now that you can't air dodge it anymore. Almost all of his Leadge trapping tool's are still here.

For MU's He seems to do well vs Inkling its hard for her to kill him since Boo-yay window is only 7% wide for Pac and It's hard to hit roller when Pac is going to be standing behind Hydrant. Chrome is not as bad as I thought. He can't really force Pac to approach like Cloud could. Snake is probably one of my favorite MU's so far for me but I don't think Pac wins at all. I think he loses to the Rat's but nothing that he can't do. Pichu is easier since she's paper. Yoshi and Wario are going to be a problem since they have all the tool's you need to beat Pac.

All in all, this is definitely the best Pac-man has ever been. The buffs to Normal's and QOL changes to his fruits are so big for him and more then make up for the nerfs. He still probably going to struggle vs the same character's that's always beat him ( Safe Neutral's while forcing Pac to approach and also out rewarding him) and he still can't really kill though its better then Smash 4. It's going to be fun watching Sinji and Tea take name's. Sinji is already looking very good.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Palutena is obviously really popular atm but I feel like both of the Pits are going under the radar for just how solid they are in this game imo. While they still have to work for their kills it's not nearly as much of a problem for them as in Smash 4 because their aerials can actually kill reasonably this time around and deal solid damage. They still have their throw combos, F-Throw is still a solid kill throw at the ledge at high percents (might be stronger than in Smash 4 but I'm not sure on that), and both of their arrows are great. While Pit has a slight edge over Dark Pit still because his arrows are really good for gimping recoveries (which is more effective this game than in Smash 4, another big boon to them), Dark Pit's arrows received a massive buff to their damage and knockback, making the tradeoff much less noticeable as an uncharged arrow does like 7% which is pretty nuts for any projectile that's that fast. Fully charged Dark Pit arrows can deal near 20% and as I said, their knockback is much better in this game so they're much better for getting a kill on someone near the edge of the screen. For those reasons I'd say Pit and Dark Pit are still really close to each other in terms of viability even if Pit's slightly better because of the improved gimping in Ultimate. And yeah all three of them are really good in this game which is great to see coming from Smash 4 where Palutena barely functioned and the Pits were too honest for their own good.

This is all good to be reading, especially as a Pit main (and by default a Pittoo main and Palutena supporter)...who would’ve though staying honest would get peoples attention in this game

I think the reason the Pits are going unremarked upon is because despite their buffs, they're still fundamentally pretty "honest" characters. This isn't exactly a hot take or anything, I'm sure, but they don't have any big gimmick or "wow factor" to catch attention.

and somehow that honesty is rising their stock up in a positive way

A couple more tier lists for the pile. Here's Pandarien:

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Anti's:

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Nothing too new. Cloud and Yoshi seem to be all over the place. Likewise with Incineroar and Ridley and the heavies in general. Pokemon Trainer, Wolf, R.O.B. seem to be hanging out on the fringe. Mewtwo is there too, without many results from what I can tell.

If anyone knows how I can embed the tweets, let me know! edit: vvv thanks!

damn...Rosalina and Bayonetta are so low in that first tier list (and Bayo is low on both)

 

[Lord Dio]

These are the flaws that befall every heavy, except King K. Rool does a better job of mitigating them than his peers:

- The 'zoning options' -- bad as you think they are, he at least HAS them at all, which is more than any others can say. Blunderbuss is obviously a mediocre move reserved mostly for mixups and occasional frame trapping/ledge coverage, but his crown throw is fast and all around solid for forcing options and creating approach openings.
- He is combo food to be sure, but the insane super armor on nair gives him the second-best 'combo breaker' move among heavies (except for Incineroar thanks to Revenge)
- You have to knock him really far horizontally for his recovery not to reach -- most of the time this will only happen when he is already at a high percent. His recovery isn't perfect, but it is safe from vertical edgeguarding (unless you're fighting Villager) and requires a lot of force to be abused horizontally. The only heavy who will get back to stage more often than K. Rool (ignoring SDs) is Dedede.

The most valid argument against him is the approach issues, but again Ganon and Dedede (and Ridley, kinda) suffer in those departments too -- and have less elsewhere going for them. With his competition being Ganon, Dedede, and maybe Ridley (it's safe to say IMO that DK/Bowser/Incineroar are too good to be in the running for worst), K. Rool's super armor, grab game, projectile game, down tilt, and forward tilt keep him from the title of worst.

Literally everything J0oeyboi said
>approach issues
>other heavyweights suffer there too
Yeah
except they make up for it by being able to take you from 0 to 60 once they get in, and have actual methods of getting in.
>less elsewhere going for them
see previous reply by J0oeyboi, which also doesn't even go into how D3 and ridley can zone and set up better than K rool can with gordos and fireballs.
armor means literally nothing once you learn to play around it. Reading an armor attack is like a free airdodge read, it ltierally allows you free hits when you punish it.
grab game? how does he get those grabs? shields are nerfed in general, characters are generally choosing to cross up or space properly, and he has no good approach options. How is he supposed to reliably get grabs?
Not to mention the other heavies get much more off their grabs and burst options than he does.
down tilt. down tilt? you mean less reliable down throw? when......pretty much every other heavy has a better down tilt?
forward tilt: See reply to armor moves.

I see absolutely no future for this character in the meta as time progresses and people learn how to deal with his tricks. Easily one of the 2 worst heavies, the worst depending on what you think of dedede.

 

[J0eyboi]

K.Rool's recovery weakness is being blown out of proportion. He can recover low and power up to the ledge. Especially if we're talking "worst heavy" where characters lack pretty hard in the recovery department or if not they have exploitable recoveries.

You're only supposed to put one space after a period

Here's the thing: K.Rool's recovery is exploitable. Not everyone is able to exploit it well, but it can be exploited extremely hard by certain characters. Characters like, say, Peach (turnip), Inkling (splat bomb), Pit (arrows), Snake (Nikita and also grenades), Mega Man (Metal Blade), ROB (Gyro), Bowser Jr (Mechakoopa), any of the Links (bombs), or even possibly characters like Lucas (PK Freeze), Ness (PK Flash), Greninja (Substitute aka his counter), Villager (Bowling ball), Pac-Man (Melon, probably), Duck Hunt (can), DDD (gordos), Yoshi (eggs), G&W (Chef), Pichu and Pikachu (Thunder Jolt), Samus (bombs and possibly homing missile), Shulk (pretty much anything but especially Fair), Cloud (Dair), and probably at least 2 others that I didn't think of will be able to harass K.Rool's recovery for free, getting either a lot of damage and a ledgetrapping situation (which K.Rool struggles in) or a kill. Against other characters, his recovery fares better, but that list, which includes quite a few potential top tiers and relevant threats, isn't exactly encouraging.

He can also go high and Nair down.

Going high and Nairing isn't going to be possible for K.Rool in a lot of situations. He has high fall speed, high gravity, low airspeed, and a fairly low double jump. He can go high with Up-B, but that's just asking to get punished.

 

[verbatim]

Stuff about

New utilt is a step down. The old one launched the hydrant at a perfect angle for ledge trapping and the new one is very situational.


One thing that hasn't really been talked about a lot is how the nerf to air dodges is a "silent" pseudo-buff to characters who have landing options other than air dodging.

Noteable examples:

- Pits multiple jumps and (to a lesser extent) down b
- ROB's ambiguous trajectory on up b
- Pac-Man's hydrant and side b