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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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TTTTTsd

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Because I like talking about meta stuff so much, I'll also add to the :ultsnake: discussion a bit. Brawl vets are def gonna have an easier time playing him and figuring him out while fighting him, but I ALSO think Brawl Snake players also have to adapt to the new stuff that Snake has in this game, namely new Nikita which is starting to see wide use, but ALSO how much his ground and air game are fundamentally different.

The jumpsquat and landing lag changes redefine how Snake is to be understood so I think his metagame, while familiar, is also very fresh at the same time and will see growth as the game goes on. I hope his players continue to push him even further in the new engine.

(For perspective Brawl Snake had a 9f jumpsquat and like 30 frames of landing lag on all of his aerials. He is a STARK contrast to Ultimate Snake in both of these regards, not including the way running and dashing works in this game vs. Brawl)

On this tangent Bowser is being criminally overlooked, I think he's quite good now and the more people experiment the more they'll find. He's a STRONG ambassador for the mechanics changes.
 
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Nobie

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Some Mewtwo observations in training mode—slight apologies if this is common knowledge:

1) Down tilt is a really good move, but one of its weaknesses is that it's very low to the ground and can be countered by short hops, especially because down tilt slightly extends Mewtwo's hurtbox. This is even more of an issue in Ultimate due to the 3-frame jump squat. Many characters can just nair over it by default, especially those whose Nairs are frame-3. Up tilt is a good anti-air, but its startup is relatively slow.

However, JAB covers the middle ground between the two. It's high enough to hit a lot of short hops, comes out frame 6 (just like down tilt), and doesn't extend Mewtwo's hurtbox as much. You can't combo out of it the same way you can down tilt, but the basic jab combo can push to the opponent off the stage, leading to edgeguard opportunities. Being able to dash into jab also gives it utility that it didn't have in the previous game. It isn't so great at dealing with full hop or swordie nairs or fading away, but that's where up tilt comes in.

2) Mewtwo's old air dodge shenanigans are dead, but Mewtwo can actually directional air dodge/up b teleport out of every short hop aerial except nair. That means you can sh fair and then immediately retreat by buffering teleport back. Or you could try to air dodge behind the opponent. Or air dodge up onto a platform. Other characters can do this with certain aerials as well, but I think Mewtwo's combination of range and power makes this especially potent. It's likely punishable if predicted, but gives Mewtwo extra movement options in neutral.
 
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san.

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Palutena also has one of the best grabs in the game, beating out Greninja's and Zelda's, while retaining the frame 7 startup. That lets her grab attacks that would have been safe against many other characters, so that combined with her frame 5, comboing nair OoS makes it so that her CQC isn't even as bad as it's supposed to be for her archetype.

In the same vein, Mii Swordfighter has similar versatility with strong normals and explosive specials. What he lacks in a string breaker and zone breaking tools he makes up for with power and more practical projectiles.



One other aspect that has been overlooked is that he was given a combo starter counter, a suitable alternative to his reflector. It has a massive 1.5x damage multiplier and can combo into aerials at low %s. It also has the best frame data of any counter in the game, starting essentially at frame 5 due to invincibility frames, and may even be safe on whiff most times. It's his closest thing to a string breaker that he has.

His Link UpB, Hero Spin, also gives him powerful out of shield options, beginning on frame 8, and it seems to be just as strong if not stronger than Link's. With the easy buffered upB out of shield, many aerials and tilts become unsafe even when spaced.

Unlike Palutena, if a player decides to use this move as well as projectiles such as chakram, their recovery will be more vulnerable. On the other hand, chakram can be angled, to impede offstage pressure, and hero spin can be reversed to kill offstage at fraudulently low percents.

Another that hasn't been mentioned is dair. Not the safest, but it can be crossed up on shield. It is like a disjointed version of kirby's, but gimping is different. From my experience, fast falling to spike opponents is only useful for some matchups. I actually had more success dragging opponents horizontally offstage so that they can't return, then use reverse upB to cover high recoveries.

I feel that over time we'll be able to get a feel for how well this character will develop in the meta, but if allowed to adjust specials according to the matchup, I feel the recent hype surrounding this character is warranted, where he feels to be around a high tier character. His main issue is that all of his safest buttons don't lead to kills as easily as other top tiers outside of a few setups.
 
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NairWizard

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Also, if you guys really want Squad Strike to be a thing (and I agree that it should be), why don't you go and convince your local TOs to try it? If people enjoy it, it'll spread. Smash was always a grassroots scene. It begins at the leaves, and goes up!
 

PK Gaming

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I don't understand how this set could be viewed as a battle against oppressive odds. What is oppressive about the Snake vs. Pichu matchup for Pichu? It looks even to me, maybe slight favor one way or the other, but there's not even enough evidence to reach a reasonable conclusion.
My point was less about the Pichu / Snake matchup (which before the match, was underdeveloped) and more about Ally vs Void. Ally took that first game convincingly, specifically after his second kill against Pichu and ran away with the match. Sure in retrospect, Void had nothing to worry about it if kept at it, but think of everyone's emotions at the time; there was this palpable shift in energy when Snake dunked on Pichu. Snake salt/Ally praise rose on Twitter & Twitch. The commentators were really feeling Ally and even doubted Pichu a bit, and even ZeRo described the situation (not the matchup) as "it's not even. Void will die early while Snake will live for far at least 40 more %" and "that's what I mean with Pichu dude, he takes a few hits and just DIES" (paraphrasing)

The biggest culprit was Void himself, who switched to Roy in a panic. Void was down 0-2 in his second go about with Pichu and was trailing in that one match. Things just seemed really dire until that one *eureka moment* where things clicked into place and Void was able to figure out the flow of the match. And once that happened... a nice reverse 3-0.

And Pichu itself didn't do it. Void's adapted, by relentlessly abusing Snake's disadvantage in a way ESAM could not vs MVD. So my point is less about the (now more developed Pichu vs Snake matchup) and more about how everything changed when Void got his **** together.

My problem is with your statement, "More than ever before, you can compete in every matchup."

This could be true, but making this claim based on the given set seems like confirmation bias to me; it's like you want to view Ultimate as fair, challenging, and balanced so much that you're reading too far into the available evidence.
It's definitely a bit overly hopeful on my part, haha. I just feel that with the game's improved depth and (so far) better balance, it will facilitate an environment where this sort of thing will more possible. We can discount 64, Melee and Brawl for obvious reasons, and while it was definitely possible in Smash 4 (especially moreso in the pre-DLC meta) it hadn't reached it's peak imo. So it's less that Ultimate is "fair, challenging and balanced" and more that it's "more promising than the previous entries on that front."

The set isn't some mountain that Void had to climb that he couldn't have climbed in a previous game; Void just demonstrated standard top player adaptation that you saw all throughout smash 4/Brawl/Melee history. ZeRo vs. Tsu from smash 4 showcased as much adaptation as this and more; it didn't mean much then, though: that's how top players are. Nairo was competing fairly solidly with Pit against hoo-hahing Diddys and Sheiks for a solid year into smash 4's timeline. We also had plenty of top 8/16 upsets with unexpected characters (Duck Hunt Dog anyone?), even late into the game's lifespan. We will definitely have that all happen again; there are even more characters now, which makes it harder to know every matchup, so in fact we're going to have even *more* of that than ever before. And top player adaptation will continue to be a thing.
I don't think this level of adaptation was present at the beginning of Smash 4 though. Matches tended to go one way or another, with the occasional 1-2 flipping to 3-2. A 0-2 to 3-2 reversal only happened when people got good at Smash 4. And for that to happen this early on in Smash Ultimate's lifespan is incredibly promising, at least to me. And yeah, the significant amount of playable characters will force players to get better at adapting, or else risk losing to some shark in pools. Cosmos put it best in his tweet.


Of course it does. Brawl vets are just straight up better at dealing with Snake's setups. Fighting a character in a previous game always gives you some insight, regardless of engine differences. Playing as a character in a previous game is similar; it's the same reason that Ally and MVD just naturally gravitated toward Snake in this game and that Light's Fox did so well (because they played the characters previously).
I really disagree, in part due to how different Snake played in that game (DACUS, most of Snake's aerials being unusable, the relative speed of the game, etc) and because fighting a character in a previous game is only superficially useful. You get a sense of their general moveset, but not how they interact with the game itself. A Street Fighter player isn't going to have a better handle against M. Bison in SFV because the fought him in SFIV, for example. And I have the perfect example too to back my claim up too, with MVD vs ESAM. Even as a Brawl vet, ESAM could not beat Snake with Pikachu.
 

NairWizard

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Thanks for explaining your view, PK. I don't normally take a discussion this far but since it's probably felt like I've been antagonizing you a little bit I'll wrap up some threads:


It's definitely a bit overly hopeful on my part, haha. I just feel that with the game's improved depth and (so far) better balance, it will facilitate an environment where this sort of thing will more possible. We can discount 64, Melee and Brawl for obvious reasons, and while it was definitely possible in Smash 4 (especially moreso in the pre-DLC meta) it hadn't reached it's peak imo. So it's less that Ultimate is "fair, challenging and balanced" and more that it's "more promising than the previous entries on that front."
Let's hope that this ends up being true. I'd actually enjoy seeing you be right on this one.

And Pichu itself didn't do it. Void's adapted, by relentlessly abusing Snake's disadvantage in a way ESAM could not vs MVD. So my point is less about the (now more developed Pichu vs Snake matchup) and more about how everything changed when Void got his **** together.
Fair enough; they're both great players, and Void played phenomenally.

I don't think this level of adaptation was present at the beginning of Smash 4 though. Matches tended to go one way or another, with the occasional 1-2 flipping to 3-2. A 0-2 to 3-2 reversal only happened when people got good at Smash 4. And for that to happen this early on in Smash Ultimate's lifespan is incredibly promising, at least to me.
in 2014 it happened, but not if it involved ZeRo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcHaAI-FHqg

Here's a Collision tournament a few months after wii u was released with Nakat and Nairo going to game 5 of set 2 in grand finals.


in 2015 it increased dramatically, but again mostly against non-ZeRo opponents:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm9CHClcOw8

Ally vs. 6wx. At this time Sonic had an absolutely busted back-throw that carried some Sonic players to glory and definitely won this matchup against Mario (even the ending of game 5 shows how broken it was, especially since people were DIing it incorrectly), but you still saw some great back and forth adaptation like this.

here's Nairo vs. MVD at Paragon in that year, Winners Finals, in a matchup that was extremely Diddy-favored (pre-final-nerf and before the shield change mechanics changed ZSS, I think).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paV-CYO9Tdc


It is definitely promising that this happened, though, I can't deny that.

And I have the perfect example too to back my claim up too, with MVD vs ESAM. Even as a Brawl vet, ESAM could not beat Snake with Pikachu.
MVD and ESAM are training partners, so that set could have gone either way.

Also, MVD was actually one of the only Snakes in Brawl to be able to beat ESAM's Pikachu with Snake, so I think this point actually works against the claim.

As much as ESAM knew how to fight against Snake, MVD knew how to fight against Pikachu.


But yeah, the games are very different; the nuances will matter more than vet history will in the long run.
 

Rizen

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@ Thread, you know it helps when you link the match you're referring to. That way lay-Z people like me don't have to search for it.
 

ChikoLad

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Been searching for a character to main and while I don't think I've quite hit a solid pick yet, Dr. Mario is a contender. At the very least I'll probably use him and train with him for a while. Mainly because I feel he's a character that rewards being good at the basic mechanics of the game, in that he's extremely high risk, high reward. If you do play well with him, he will rack up damage extremely quickly with his surprisingly solid combo game and he has a lot of solid KO moves to finish the job. Playing poorly and making mistakes though means you will be stuck in a gruelling battle to just gain your footing if not just getting gimped laughably easily altogether.

Essentially, I think Dr. Mario might be one of the best characters to learn if you want to improve your fundamental skills and moment to moment judgement. He's a character that punishes you hard for making even small mistakes but rewards you greatly for making solid reads and planning a bit ahead, and knowing what combos into what.

I wouldn't suggest at all that he's a strong competitor in the grand scheme of things and I doubt many people will use him in actual tournaments but I would recommend trying to learn him and even after a few matches you'll find yourself getting more and more consistent and being able to cover up his weaknesses, as your fundamental skills grow. And I feel much of what you pick up on could apply to many other characters. Sometimes it takes playing a character with strong limitations yet potentially strong rewards to really take the next step towards improving.
 
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Ffamran

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I'm not sure what (else) Larry could have done against VoiD and Pichu other than "play better". Larry as far as I know for Ultimate has mainly been playing the Star Fox characters and messing around with Luigi because Twitter combos. I don't remember the other characters he mentioned during a stream a while back. Fox, Falco, and Wolf are all fast fallers, they all have similar, exploitable recoveries, and none of them use weapons for their normals.

Larry Lurr's Fox vs. VoiD's Pichu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSw1pK2Xee0.

Larry Lurr's Falco vs. VoiD's Pichu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob0_aJLH7b4.

Pichu exploits all three of these qualities where being fast fallers makes it easier for them to be comboed by Pichu and Pichu's ability to edgeguard is also good considering it has high active frames for its Nair, Fair, and Bair and Fire Fox's and Fire Bird's slow launch frame makes it easier for Pichu to spike Fox and Falco with Dair. Fire Fox travels the furthest letting Fox recover from farther away than Falco and Wolf, but it also means the further away he is, the more time Pichu has time to plan how to counter Fire Fox. What doesn't help is the increased startup on Fox Illusion. It always had higher startup since at least Brawl at 21 frames, but Ultimate increased it to 25 frames because apparently not being able to pass through shields wasn't enough. It does have the lowest recovery on the ground compared to Falco Phantasm since it has the same total frames as Falco Phantasm on the ground, but in the air when Fox wants to use it to recover, it being 6-7 frames slower on startup compared to Falco Phantasm and Wolf Flash is a problem. If you're only considering them as burst movement options, Fox Illusion has 31 recovery frames on the ground and 48 in the air with 16 landing frames, Falco Phantasm has 38 on the ground and 49 in the air with 16 landing frames, and Wolf Flash has 29 landing frames since he enters free fall regardless of where you use it due to it moving up at an angle.

Falco, therefore, has a fast horizontal recovery and one that can spike airborne opponents, but Fire Bird is strictly worse than Fire Fox and arguably Fire Wolf. It has shorter travel than Fire Fox, but has the same launch frame where Fire Fox's launch frame can kill. It travels further than Fire Wolf, but Falco might have preferred a faster launching Up Special even if it had shorter travel.

Wolf's Fire Wolf and Wolf Flash have the fastest launch times at around frame 19, so it's easier for Wolf to mixup his recovery unlike Fox and Falco where you know if they do their Up Special, it's going to be much slower than their Side Special. Fire Wolf and Wolf Flash are also very threatening moves as Fire Wolf trades charging hits and distance for knockback and sweetspotted Wolf Flash will kill where Wolf can choose to Wolf Flash onto the stage instead of to the ledge. The only problem is that Wolf Flash leaves Wolf in freefall, Fire Wolf has the shortest travel, and Wolf's low jump height means its easier for Pichu to gimp Wolf than the others.

All three of them also don't really do well against small characters since except for Wolf who has his Fair, none of them have aerials that arc or cover well in front and/or below them. On the ground, however, all of them can angle their Ftilts, Fox has reverse Utilt, Falco and Wolf have Utilt, Fox's and Falco's Side Smashes have arcing hitboxes, and all three have Up Smashes that cover well in front of them. That said, their range is limited to how far their limbs can reach and that's usually going to be shorter than someone like the Pits, Marth, or Triple D who use weapons or Bowser, DK, and Ridley who are big characters.

Fox has the advantages of his ground speed letting him outpace or keep up with Pichu and having the strongest and possibly the most reliable kill confirms that were carried over from Smash 4. If Fox can land Nair, Dair, or whatever into Up Smash, he probably would have the easiest time killing out of the three. Up Smash out of shield is also another good option, but also the riskiest one since his has the highest recovery at 45 frames for how long its active, clean and late hit, or 49 if you're only considering the earliest it can hit on frame 8. Falco's has 32 recovery frames for how long its active or 43 for its earliest hit on frame 7 and Wolf's has 25 recovery frames or 35 for its earliest hit on frame 13. For his disadvantages, Fox is the lightest and his range is probably shorter than Falco's and Wolf's. Also, Fox's Blaster lasers don't have knockback, so it can be harder for him to keep Pichu out by trying to zone Pichu.

Trading isn't something Fox should be doing even against Pichu, the lightest character in the game. Pichu is a glass cannon and Pichu's aerials look like they have higher overall kill power than Fox's where Pichu's Fair and Bair have high active frames, Pichu's Nair probably can kill off-stage, and Dair is a spike that also has a setup into it. On the ground, people will have to deal with Pichu's derpy Ftilt of doom -- maybe we should call it the stanky leg -- and its Smashes where Side Smash is a disjoint, Up Smash has ear invincibility, and apparently its Down Smash also makes it invulnerable 1 frame before its startup and 1 frame before its second hit, frames 7-10 where Down Smash is frame 8 on startup. Anyway, trading is what kept happening in Winners Finals between Larry's Fox against Void's Pichu. Both of them were going to die regardless, but it seems like Pichu has the advantage in being able to kill Fox at similar or earlier percents.

Falco has high active frames on several of his moves, dash attack, Utilt, Up Smash, Nair, Fair, Bair, and Dair letting him catch or still be able to damage his opponent when Fox and Wolf cannot, especially off stage allowing Falco to edgeguard fairly easier than Fox and Wolf. Although, when it comes to edgeguarding, I feel like Pichu might have the advantage over Falco here. It doesn't mean Falco can't edgeguard Pichu, but Pichu would be able to edgeguard Falco just as easily as with Fox and Wolf. Falco's also the only one out the three to have or still retain invincibility for his Up Smash giving him a safe anti-air in addition to his faster anti-airs, angled up Ftilt and Utilt. Falco's air to air capabilities are also pretty good with Nair and Fair. Up Smash out of shield is also good as Larry demonstrated with both Falco and Fox, but Falco's Up Smash is weaker than Fox's -- not sure compared to Wolf's. Like Fox, his Dtilt is also a natural disjoint since it uses his tail, but it's not disjointed like Smash 4 and it's no longer the frame 7 tail sweep it used to be in the previous games making it not as fast of a poke or punish. His drawbacks are that he's only really mobile when it comes to moving vertically as other than his walk speed, his run and air speed are below-average and his dash is now average in Ultimate. Pichu isn't that fast, like Little Mac fast compared to Falco, but Falco will have a harder time chasing after or avoiding Pichu whether it's on the ground or in the air compared to Fox and Wolf. It's his vertical mobility, however, that when combined with how his moves launch his opponents that Falco is able to follow up from a variety of moves letting him pile on damage against an opponent who isn't able to react appropriately or DI correctly. Falco does have kill confirms, but they're a bit weird and not as reliable compared to Fox who you just want to land Nair or Dair to be able to confirm an Up Smash while Falco needs to land with the loop hits of Nair or Fair and avoid Fair's landing hit to confirm his Up Smash. There's also the issue of Fox's Up Smash's horizontal range being longer than Falco's both in actual range and Fox being able to run a fair distance and catch an opponent with Up Smash.

I feel like Wolf's moves would let him do well against Pichu, but Wolf's recovery is what would kill him and as far as we know, Wolf's lack of kill confirms would make it harder for Wolf to kill Pichu in any other way than landing moves raw even if his kill moves have a lot of power and Wolf is the only one of the three to have a reliable kill throw. Wolf would have an easier time hitting Pichu with his aerials, namely Fair and Nair, his Blaster combined with his high overall mobility would let him control space, and he's no slouch on the ground either, so overall, Wolf could probably safely poke away and build damage on Pichu. It's in those crucial moments, when Wolf needs to land a kill move and when Wolf's off stage and in disadvantage, where Wolf will struggle. Regardless, all three cannot make mistakes as easily against Pichu. The other thing is that Wolf might have a harder time juggling Pichu since even though his Uair is good, Wolf doesn't jump that high nor is he a speedster on the ground like Fox and his Uair isn't a Chrom, Cloud, Ike, or Cloud Uair that has a lot of range. With regards to the player, I don't know how much Larry has played Wolf to be comfortable enough to challenge VoiD who's been labbing Pichu for all this time. That's probably why he didn't choose Wolf, but instead opted for Falco instead.

And then there's Luigi. He is not a fast faller, so he could escape being comboed more easily and his Nair is frame 3 where if it's anywhere near as powerful as it was in Smash 4 could probably kill an overconfident Pichu and for all intents and purposes, Luigi has two reversals through his Super Jump Punch and Luigi Cyclone. SJP is invincible on frames 8-10 on the ground and frames 6-8 in the air. A very poor shield approach from anyone could lead to a severe punish from Luigi, but it's risky, it has 45 landing frames and sourspotting it the worst thing you could do with it, so it's not as reliable as Doc, Mario, the shotos, and other characters doing their dragon punch Up Specials out of shield. In return for losing another vertical recovery option and powerful gimp and finisher, Luigi Cyclone gained invincibility on frames 4-8 on the ground and frames 1-7 in the air. I don't know how well a Cyclone out of shield would work, but if its reliable enough, then Luigi has these two moves on top of Up Smash, Nair, whatever as his out of shield options. These traits would help him in addition to having good normals and having a projectile to control space, but Luigi suffers from same recovery problem as the Star Fox characters where Luigi's issue is his very low air speed, lack of a wall jump to help out, and slow horizontal recovery move rather than falling too fast and/or having too low of a jump, Luigi isn't fast on the ground or in the air which could lead to Pichu overrunning him, and of course, Luigi having a tether grab has both its advantages, its range and being able to act as another aerial option, and disadvantages, the slower startup.

So, with character picks, I feel like Larry didn't have anyone else, but Fox and Falco as characters he was comfortable enough to play at that high of a level. For me, I feel like characters who outrange and can safely hit Pichu would be good counterpicks. In particular, Lucina, Marth, Meta Knight, toon and young Link, the Pits, and possibly Shulk come to mind. They're all fairly fast characters in movement and frame data where the Links and the Pits would be able to zone as well. Shulk's in that weird spot where through Monado Arts, he is able to alter his stats, so he can be fast or hit harder when needed, but it's iffy. Chrom, Cloud, and Roy also work, but their recoveries are exploitable, so you would need to be on point with them or else risk being gimped constantly. Robin being slow is a problem, but if Robin can keep Pichu out, then it should be fine or not and Robin will just get smothered to death. Ike and adult Link on the other hand can take hits well. Not sure about Corrin or the Belmonts, however. With regards to heavyweights, Bowser, DK who Larry did play in Smash 4, and Ridley might work, but they're big dudes making them walking punching bags for Pichu. Bowser and DK have invincibility on several of their normals and all three are mobile on the ground or in the air.

In both matches, there was something that Larry either didn't do enough or didn't do at all that I wished he did and was use angled up Ftilt and for Fox, reverse Utilt. I get that Fox's dash attack is good and Fox's Utilt is fast enough to catch things in front of him, but there were times where Larry might have been able to smack an air approaching Pichu. Probably not when Pichu was using Fair, but maybe when it was using Nair. Angled up Ftilt for Falco is possibly his furthest reaching anti-air as Utilt and Up Smash hit closer to him and I'm not sure if the animation change to jab 1 allow it to hit that high up anymore. I also still don't trust Falco's jab to connect properly against characters high up and that small. That said, it doesn't look like Falco's nor Fox's angled up Ftilt reaches that high anymore and in return for having 7 less recovery frames, 14 now compared to Smash 4's 21, Falco's Ftilt does 3% less damage, 6% base damage to Smash 4's 9%, so it's probably not as rewarding as landing his Utilt. I don't know why they did that to his Ftilt. What Ftilt really needed was base knockback so that it wasn't unsafe on hit at low percents, but instead of doing that, they drastically lowered its total frames and damage to make it like a Fox Ftilt. Anyway, Larry's approaches against VoiD shielding weren't so good since Larry either attacked too close or it seemed too predictable like he was going to do another dash attack. He ate a lot of Nairs, Fairs, and Bairs out of shield and even died to out of shield Ftilts during Winners Finals.

With Winners Finals, it also felt like either VoiD was outplaying Larry or Larry was off or playing poorly and weirdly so. Several times Larry would jab, Ftilt, or Utilt in the wrong direction when he was already facing VoiD. It didn't seem like a hard read either, but a weird input or decision. Trading, however, was the worst thing that kept happening as it made it easier for VoiD to kill Larry's Fox just as it made it easier for Larry to kill VoiD's Pichu.

During Grand Finals, Larry seemed more in control of what he was doing, but there were still some things that he could have done better. For one, ground Falco Phantasm while it has less recovery than aerial Phantasm, has lower startup that Fox Illusion, and it is a burst movement option for Falco, is still unsafe when it hits a shield. Some of them caught VoiD off guard, but others were punished as it felt like Larry might have used it too many times and VoiD caught on to that. Larry didn't use Nair much either and for good reason since it's more like Brawl and pre-patch Smash 4 Nair now where its loop hits can drop people. The issue with this is that because Larry has to resort to using Fair more often, Fair gets staled faster than it would have if Nair was used in place for follow ups and landing with Fair even though it has a landing hit to cover its 15 landing frames, is still unsafe. Nair not being reliable also means Falco doesn't really have a frame 3 aerial out of shield option. Bair and Uair are fine if the opponent is behind him, but Fair risks Falco dealing with landing lag and Dair isn't the fastest of moves at frame 10.

Regarding Pichu itself, can you catch Agility with a move? There were a few times where VoiD used Agility to get back onto the stage and Larry didn't do anything or tried to hit it and whiffed. Here he tries to catch it with Down Smash: https://youtu.be/Ob0_aJLH7b4?t=570. He does nothing here where I think he instinctively shielded thinking it was Pikachu's Quick Attack: https://youtu.be/Ob0_aJLH7b4?t=918. Mistimed Dtilt or one what was in an attempt to 2 frame Pichu: https://youtu.be/Ob0_aJLH7b4?t=1054.
 
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Rizen

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I feel like :ultkrool: has enough going for him to stay in high tier, probably on the lower end. He has all the tools a heavy weight needs: a good recovery that's hard to contest, tons of super armor, a throw kill combo with Dthrow, staying power, a counter and an armored projectile. His armor has the downside of breaking so he can't spam it but it's still enough to power through attacks when needed. He can Nair to land and DA or crown throw through weak attacks. K.Rool's also heavy as heck and lives to 160-200% easily. He's really good at winning trades.
His downsides include all the standard heavy weight cons, comboed easily, trouble with zoners, etc but they aren't as bad as other heavies. He's not outrageously oppressive yet powerful enough to be scary. K.Rool outlasts opponents unlike :ultincineroar: who's more of a glass cannon with strong attacks and grapples.
 

DJ3DS

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I feel like :ultkrool: has enough going for him to stay in high tier, probably on the lower end. He has all the tools a heavy weight needs: a good recovery that's hard to contest, tons of super armor, a throw kill combo with Dthrow, staying power, a counter and an armored projectile. His armor has the downside of breaking so he can't spam it but it's still enough to power through attacks when needed. He can Nair to land and DA or crown throw through weak attacks. K.Rool's also heavy as heck and lives to 160-200% easily. He's really good at winning trades.
His downsides include all the standard heavy weight cons, comboed easily, trouble with zoners, etc but they aren't as bad as other heavies. He's not outrageously oppressive yet powerful enough to be scary. K.Rool outlasts opponents unlike :ultincineroar: who's more of a glass cannon with strong attacks and grapples.
Have you tried playing as K Rool against a campy Villager, Isabelle, or a decent Belmont?

The guy folds to decent camping. Whereas others (such as DK, Bowser and Ridley) have some speed to apply pressure, K Rool is far too slow to effectively do it.

In my opinion K Rool actually does worse against a good zoner than the other heavies because his projectiles are too slow and predictable to win a zoning war, and he doesn't have the speed to zone break effectively. Armour doesn't mean as much if the opponent is spaced well beyond it, either.
 

|RK|

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One of the biggest improvements in Ultimate is... heavies actually feel heavy. They can legitimately survive (for now). Compared to other Smash games where they got laddered or gimped for free at unreasonable percents.
 

Kellojolly

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For those that have been following the more recent tournaments and been using Link and YLink, what are your thoughts? Have your initial analysis of the two links changed?
 

SiO2

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Have you tried playing as K Rool against a campy Villager, Isabelle, or a decent Belmont?

The guy folds to decent camping. Whereas others (such as DK, Bowser and Ridley) have some speed to apply pressure, K Rool is far too slow to effectively do it.

In my opinion K Rool actually does worse against a good zoner than the other heavies because his projectiles are too slow and predictable to win a zoning war, and he doesn't have the speed to zone break effectively. Armour doesn't mean as much if the opponent is spaced well beyond it, either.
I agree completely. As a Mii Gunner main, it's very tough for K. Rool to get the upper hand against me. On the other hand, he has the tools to take down rushdown characters.
 

RonNewcomb

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I also like the idea of adding a hurtbox to swords. Many other games do it this way; that'd be a good solution.
Oh God no. It isn't a sword if it has a hurtbox. It was dumb on Falke. Swordies pay for disjointed range with slower startup and longer FAF, and frequently also linear recovery and some trouble escaping disadvantage/ trying to land. In a game where the whole cast can do their whole moveset including block from a run, if you're having trouble with swords the issue is you, not missing hurtboxes.
 
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Diddy Kong

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For those that have been following the more recent tournaments and been using Link and YLink, what are your thoughts? Have your initial analysis of the two links changed?
Toon Link still feels as the superiour Link honestly. He's got the KO power of Link, minus a little bit, and mostly all of the speed and projectile shenanigans of Young Link. I think Toon Link is heavily slept on at this current moment.
 

TTTTTsd

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Oh God no. It isn't a sword if it has a hurtbox. It was dumb on Falke. Swordies pay for disjointed range with slower startup and longer FAF, and frequently also linear recovery and some trouble escaping disadvantage/ trying to land. In a game where the whole cast can do their whole moveset including block from a run, if you're having trouble with swords the issue is you, not missing hurtboxes.
SF5 has oversized hurtboxes in general, its not mutually exclusive to Falke and I could talk all day about how badly that game did hurtboxes on weapons.

Maybe a better example would be something like Guilty Gear or like, Samurai Shodown.

It's only a proposal, one I dont think the game needs but I mean, if it's a problem down the line than the solution is to do what other good games do.

On that note bad FAF and startup are not factors I'd apply to Roy and Chrom, or even Marth+Lucina. Maybe like, Shulk and Link?
 
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Rizen

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Have you tried playing as K Rool against a campy Villager, Isabelle, or a decent Belmont?

The guy folds to decent camping. Whereas others (such as DK, Bowser and Ridley) have some speed to apply pressure, K Rool is far too slow to effectively do it.

In my opinion K Rool actually does worse against a good zoner than the other heavies because his projectiles are too slow and predictable to win a zoning war, and he doesn't have the speed to zone break effectively. Armour doesn't mean as much if the opponent is spaced well beyond it, either.
No but I've played YL against all the heavies. K.Rool has some good tools. If you autopilot projectiles he can crown through them or DA you, both with armor. Canon ball's kind of a pain to deal with. Armored Nair is a good move that can beat out some juggles and recoveries. And he lives forever, then he grabs, buries and Fsmashes you. I do think he loses to zoning but he has options to deal with it. Fighting K.Rool forces you to think out each action because he might power through. Don't sleep on K.Rool.
 
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boysilver400

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I got the game for Christmas today, so here are a few thoughts

:ultlink: - Don’t sleep on this guy. His new bomb threw him a huge bone, and I’ve gotten some decent setups with it. I like him so far, although :ultyounglink: is better.

:ultjigglypuff: - Sorry Jigglypuff mains, but I’m not impressed by her. People complain about Kirby being “unchanged” but literally nothing has changed(is she the only character to have 0 changes????) Sure, she has better air mobility than my pink puffball, but she was top 5 in air mobility in the past few games as well, and she wasn’t exactly great in those games. Up air into rest is all she has going for her, but rest is still impossible to land and easy to punish if you don’t get a star KO.

:ulticeclimbers: At E3, I had low expectations of them because they couldn’t do any infinites, because that pretty much carried them in Melee and Brawl. But I don’t find them all that bad. Their up air juggles very well, and they have decent options all around. I think they’re at least mid tier.

:ultsamus: Isn’t that bad either, she lost dash attack combos, but she still has her D-throw combos that rack up good percents, and don’t look over the fact that she can charge her charge shot in the air now. I just felt a lot better playing as her than in ssb4 tbh.
 

FeelMeUp

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Brawl vets aren't having an easy time against current Snake.
Here in Houston, Ultimate Razer and AvoiD are doing crazy well and have been giving players like Gnes, Trela and co. a good deal of trouble.
The character is so fundamentally different in every gamestate that you can't draw comparisons from how he was 10 years ago.
gnes avoid.png
 

PK Gaming

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Interesting take from Mr. R. I don't think his point is that Smash Ultimate is some utopia for character balance, but even the best characters will have to fall back on secondaries because they're just not that dominant.

Secondaries have always been a thing in Smash (and we got to experience a bit of that in the glorious counterpick meta in Smash 4), but I think it's going to be more pronounced going forward, and it's incredibly exciting.

Though unfortunately for me I can only really use one character all that well, haha...
 

**Gilgamesh**

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Have you tried playing as K Rool against a campy Villager, Isabelle, or a decent Belmont?

The guy folds to decent camping. Whereas others (such as DK, Bowser and Ridley) have some speed to apply pressure, K Rool is far too slow to effectively do it.

In my opinion K Rool actually does worse against a good zoner than the other heavies because his projectiles are too slow and predictable to win a zoning war, and he doesn't have the speed to zone break effectively. Armour doesn't mean as much if the opponent is spaced well beyond it, either.
And him countering projectiles with reflect isn't easy-bake either. I don't know why so many people bring that up when it's so easily punishable in neutral if he counters and the opponent just baits it out. K. Rool suffers against good zoners.
 

Ffamran

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I also like the idea of adding a hurtbox to swords. Many other games do it this way; that'd be a good solution.
"Many other games" do it because they only have a few characters who use weapons and they're basically the same as everyone else, but they happen to use a weapon. King of Fighters has Billy Kane, Chang, Whip, and sort of Choi and Street Fighter has Falke, Rolento, and sort of Rose and Vega. Even though Rolento uses a short staff, his moves that use his staff look like they have about the same range as the other Street Fighter characters when you'd expect him to be a little more like Billy, Falke, and Whip who use their weapon to reach further. They also don't always appear in every game. One game you'll have Billy and another game you won't. That's different from a game that focuses entirely on using weapons like Samurai Shodown and Soul Calibur or have and wanted their fairly sizable group of weapon users to, well, have their weapons function like weapons which is the case for Smash. Not sure about games like Blazblue, Guilty Gear, Marvel vs. Capcom, Under Night In-Birth, or Mortal Kombat.

It's also dependent on the developers. One weapon user in a game could be like everyone else while another one isn't. Menat is an example of this where her orb does not have a hurtbox or as many hurtboxes like Falke, but Menat's orb being a placeable object means she won't always have it available for the moves that involve it unless she calls it back unlike Falke who always has her staff on hand. That being said, the way Menat and her orb work can make her very difficult to deal with.

Smash is also special in that for a 2D fighting game, movement is more flexible compared to other 2D fighting games in addition to having stages that aren't just flat. You are able to avoid and move around attacks more easily than in other games. 3D fighting games like Dead or Alive, Soul Calibur, and Tekken also allow for more flexible movement in avoiding attacks since you're dealing with 3 planes, so Yoshimitsu or a random guest characters who incorporates weapons in their moveset a lot isn't that overpowering unless they're stupidly tuned, but that applies to every character in every game.
 
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Rizen

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K. Rool suffers against good zoners.
People are giving zoners way too much of a free pass vs K.Rool or any heavy character. With the speed increase and stages not getting any bigger characters are going to get in. Shielding's harder but it's not that much of a deterrent. I suggest people watch Vermanubis' Ganon.
Or Konga's DK vs Villager (game 1)

Zoners generally do well vs heavyweights but it's closer than you'd think.
 

NairWizard

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Brawl vets aren't having an easy time against current Snake.
Here in Houston, Ultimate Razer and AvoiD are doing crazy well and have been giving players like Gnes, Trela and co. a good deal of trouble.
The character is so fundamentally different in every gamestate that you can't draw comparisons from how he was 10 years ago. View attachment 184367
I'd have to see what those players are doing differently, but at least when I watch MVD and Ally playing Snake, I see them doing a lot of the things that worked in Brawl. Sure you'll see Ally doing d-airs out of shield and some cool new things, as well as cutting out some things that just plain don't work any more, but grenade setups, tech chasing off d-throw, recovering from certain angles, etc look largely the same as I experienced them back in Brawl from what the matches seen so far demonstrate.

Ultimate Snake may be different from Brawl Snake, but the people who are playing him right now (that I've seen) are playing him in the same fashion as Brawl Snake, so Brawl Snake experience continues to be relevant. It wouldn't matter if it was 10 years ago or 40; metas are created by players, not toolkits.

In some sense, the current meta is a mashup of a new meta and late smash4 meta. Many players are still applying pseudo-smash 4 strategies to this game, and that'll continue to be the case for a while; it always is when a new game comes out. Snake feels the effect a little less since he wasn't in smash 4, but it's there for sure.

Also, I don't know how much I buy the claim that he is "fundamentally different." Fundamentally, Snake plays the same high-pressure camp game that he's always played, inviting opponents to get hit by dash attack (used to be DACUS) or grabbed in situations where grenades and up-smash/C4 are threatening. He's much different in details, but archetypally he's also quite the same. I'm open to being convinced on this.


People are giving zoners way too much of a free pass vs K.Rool or any heavy character. With the speed increase and stages not getting any bigger characters are going to get in. Shielding's harder but it's not that much of a deterrent. I suggest people watch Vermanubis' Ganon.
Or Konga's DK vs Villager (game 1)

Zoners generally do well vs heavyweights but it's closer than you'd think.
Vermanubis is a phenomenal player and used to beat good zoners like Sheik and Villager with Ganon in smash 4, where Ganon was trash.




yo, also, Merry Christmas for those of you who celebrate it and Happy New Year in advance. I've been snowed in for a few days, but won't have time to post in here for a while after this. It's been a pleasure seeing old CCI faces again though. Cheers to a good 2019 and a great year of smash.
 
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Yikarur

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This is some strong confirmation bias here.

There are a lot of factors in here.

- Brawl was 4 years ago. Most people didn't attend many tournaments in the last year so it's more about 5 years.
- Snake plays almost exactly like he did in Brawl, so anyone who was playing Snake in Brawl might have an advantage.
- Snake has not been in Smash 4 and people still play like they play Smash 4.
- People posted some examples here of "Brawl vets" who haven't played Smash 4 actively. If you haven't been a Smash 4 top player, you're at a disadvantage in Smash 4

Snake is a very strong character and he has some weird changes in Ultimate and the Snake player is going to learn those changes faster than the person playing against Snake. This is week 3 and people don't know all quirks of the new Snake yet.

This needs some time
 

Tesh

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You guys ever think about the goofy range of Sonic's f-smash?

I'm not sure why people are freaking out over this, Sonic Fsmash has always been his notoriously longest range attack since brawl. Able to outrange sword characters
Brawl vets aren't having an easy time against current Snake.
Here in Houston, Ultimate Razer and AvoiD are doing crazy well and have been giving players like Gnes, Trela and co. a good deal of trouble.
The character is so fundamentally different in every gamestate that you can't draw comparisons from how he was 10 years ago. View attachment 184367
Worth noting that all 4 of the mentioned players are brawl vets, so there wouldn't really be a knowledge advantage as far as snake is concerned. However since Gnes doesn't play Diddy and Trela doesn't play Lucario it is kind of an entirely new matchup.
 

Lavani

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Regarding Pichu itself, can you catch Agility with a move?
It has no intangibility, it can indeed be challenged. I don't remember specific examples, but I know I saw Pichu get killed mid-Agility several times that tournament.
:ultjigglypuff: - Sorry Jigglypuff mains, but I’m not impressed by her. People complain about Kirby being “unchanged” but literally nothing has changed(is she the only character to have 0 changes????)
In terms of frame data,

Dash Attack: -1 active frame on early hit
Utilt: +1 FAF
Fsmash: Early/late hit damage increased 15/12% -> 16/14%
Usmash: Sweet/sourspot damage increased 14/12% -> 15/13%
Dsmash: +1 active frame

Uair: -5 FAF
Kinda-sorta more of a global change, but reduced jumpsquat 6->3f and all aerial landing lag substantially reduced (15/15/18/15/30 -> 9/9/11/9/15 for nair/fair/bair/uair/dair, respectively)

Rollout: Reduced endlag on hit, significantly increased damage (6~14% -> 10~20%)
Pound: -6 frames endlag(!)
Sing: 2 frames faster startup, less gaps between hitboxes, faster animation overall
Rest: Drastically decreased endlag, which is even further reduced on hit(/block?).

There's other changes mentioned for knockback and other things on ssbwiki, though I have no reputable source for backing up those claims and have seen some questionable/inaccurate changes listed on other pages, so take with a grain of salt.

---

Re: Hurtboxes on swords, it's an interesting idea. I'm not intimately familiar with most other fighting game frame data, but I know arcsys does hurtboxes on swords/other presumably-disjoints often, though usually only during active frames and still with some amount of disjoint. The result is far-reaching moves that work well to poke and don't leave extended hurtboxes for reactive punishes, but can lose or trade when challenged directly. Some BlazBlue examples:

Es 3C


Kokonoe 3C


Nu j2C - actually more intuitive with the animation, but there's extended hurtbox initially before transitioning to full disjoint a few frames into the active frames

I have no desire for nerfs as of current, but if things get to the point where swordsmen are in fact deemed to be too much, making them easier to challenge in a fashion similar to the above would be more interesting than making them slow or stripping damage/kill power, I think.

I had different intentions for a first post in here, but oh well. Hello familiar (and unfamiliar) faces. :042:
 

boysilver400

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In terms of frame data,

Dash Attack: -1 active frame on early hit
Utilt: +1 FAF
Fsmash: Early/late hit damage increased 15/12% -> 16/14%
Usmash: Sweet/sourspot damage increased 14/12% -> 15/13%
Dsmash: +1 active frame

Uair: -5 FAF
Kinda-sorta more of a global change, but reduced jumpsquat 6->3f and all aerial landing lag substantially reduced (15/15/18/15/30 -> 9/9/11/9/15 for nair/fair/bair/uair/dair, respectively)

Rollout: Reduced endlag on hit, significantly increased damage (6~14% -> 10~20%)
Pound: -6 frames endlag(!)
Sing: 2 frames faster startup, less gaps between hitboxes, faster animation overall
Rest: Drastically decreased endlag, which is even further reduced on hit(/block?).

There's other changes mentioned for knockback and other things on ssbwiki, though I have no reputable source for backing up those claims and have seen some questionable/inaccurate changes listed on other pages, so take with a grain of salt.
I meant moveset changes, I should've clarified that. The frame data buffs are nice, though.
 

Browny

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I'm not sure why people are freaking out over this, Sonic Fsmash has always been his notoriously longest range attack since brawl. Able to outrange sword characters

Worth noting that all 4 of the mentioned players are brawl vets, so there wouldn't really be a knowledge advantage as far as snake is concerned. However since Gnes doesn't play Diddy and Trela doesn't play Lucario it is kind of an entirely new matchup.
Don't tell them about the hypnosmash, Sonics best AT. Countless stocks in brawl were lost by people who saw the wind-up and just walked right into it, repeatedly underestimating its range.
 
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Ffamran

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It has no intangibility, it can indeed be challenged. I don't remember specific examples, but I know I saw Pichu get killed mid-Agility several times that tournament.
Yeah, I couldn't find any frame data sources listing if it had invincibility or not. How it stretches Pichu's hurtbox is another thing.

It's been a while, but Larry's played Melee before and Agility didn't gain the ability to hit in Ultimate, so it is weird to see him just shield when VoiD used Agility to get onto the stage. Down Smash was mistimed, probably aimed at trying to 2 frame Pichu, and it doesn't have a lot of active frames, but Up Smash could probably catch it. Agility does move fast, but the risk of throwing out a hitbox isn't as high compared to doing it against Pikachu's Quick Attack. So, it's still a reaction thing, but Larry's reactions were weird against it.

Hurtboxes on weapons and other disjoints I'd rather see be a last resort. Chrom and Roy look like the kind of stupid fun where I would like the rest of the cast to be like. Pichu is also in a similar spot where the raw reward and risk you take by playing Pichu seems thrilling and potentially addictive. People would hate the idea of it, but I'd like to see the power of Smash 4 Bayonetta and Cloud in Ultimate if everyone else was around that level too. Essentially, instead of asking for nerfs on arguably powerful characters, buffs should be asked instead on other characters and maybe even for those powerful characters too.

I meant moveset changes, I should've clarified that. The frame data buffs are nice, though.
You're going to need to be specific on what moves you want changed. Some characters constantly gain new moves in each game and sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't. Kirby's had like what? Five different dash attacks now? Triple D has had a different Bair in each game so far where Brawl was considered the best probably because of how fast it was and Snake lost a very unique Down Smash from Brawl when they gave him the double kick thing like Rosalina's and Zelda's for Ultimate.

Numbers changes can be as impactful as animation changes.
 

meleebrawler

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I meant moveset changes, I should've clarified that. The frame data buffs are nice, though.
I mean, that same moveset made Jigglypuff top tier in Melee. She has always been affected by engine changes more severely than most. Brawl and Smash 4 made it much harder to gimp consistently, removing one of her kew strengths. While it's doubtful she ever will be top tier again without 0-death combos into Rest, at least her fundamental gameplan can work again.
 

aarchak

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On the topic of hurtboxes on swords, I don't really think they're necessary in Smash. You can still be punished for throwing out careless aerials, and movement is fast enough where zone-breaking is still possible. I think comparing Smash to 2d fighters, especially those where a large portion of the cast has a weapon (like Guilty Gear), is a false equivalency because weapons control way less space in those games compared to Smash. Unless the character is a zoner, your sword won't control much more space than another character's fist or leg, and unarmed fighters aren't in an inherent disadvantage against an armed one.
 

Locke 06

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People are giving zoners way too much of a free pass vs K.Rool or any heavy character. With the speed increase and stages not getting any bigger characters are going to get in. Shielding's harder but it's not that much of a deterrent. I suggest people watch Vermanubis' Ganon.
Or Konga's DK vs Villager (game 1)

Zoners generally do well vs heavyweights but it's closer than you'd think.
Pokepen is relatively new to playing a zoner, he played Bayo/Rosa/non-zoners in 4 and is also young, whereas vermanubis has dealt with zoners for years.

Konga has played vs Magister's villager for two years now, and the player matchup is very skewed. Defensive/chip damage play will generally lose when you don't fully understand the opponent's options, and Magister has mostly been playing incineroar in the new game.


Much more to tournament sets than the characters playing.
 

Diddy Kong

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Interesting take from Mr. R. I don't think his point is that Smash Ultimate is some utopia for character balance, but even the best characters will have to fall back on secondaries because they're just not that dominant.

Secondaries have always been a thing in Smash (and we got to experience a bit of that in the glorious counterpick meta in Smash 4), but I think it's going to be more pronounced going forward, and it's incredibly exciting.

Though unfortunately for me I can only really use one character all that well, haha...
I notice this as well. Am good with Diddy now but I get destroyed by anyone am not comfortable fighting against. So far that’s Luigi, Wolf, Yoshi and Wario only. Their combination of air speed, combos, survivabilty and how they wreak my banana game is just... uncomfortable. Am doing better against them with Mewtwo and DK. And I don’t necessarily think those characters are better.

Anyway, Diddy is THE most slept on character currently I think.
 

DJ3DS

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No but I've played YL against all the heavies. K.Rool has some good tools. If you autopilot projectiles he can crown through them or DA you, both with armor. Canon ball's kind of a pain to deal with. Armored Nair is a good move that can beat out some juggles and recoveries. And he lives forever, then he grabs, buries and Fsmashes you. I do think he loses to zoning but he has options to deal with it. Fighting K.Rool forces you to think out each action because he might power through. Don't sleep on K.Rool.
I'm not sleeping on K Rool. He was my ballot vote, my secondary in this game and I adore what they've done with him but he can't approach. The crown is only good for punishing midrange projectiles; short range you jump over and get your free grab punish and throw him away from his crown, and once you've got that he's screwed if you can use it well.

His Nair beats out juggling, but over time we will see a shift towards people baiting it and punishing the landing instead. His slow aerial drift makes it hard to land against an opponent who understands what k rool can do.

Predictions for k rool is that he will only get worse over time. His projectiles are amongst the easiest to parry, and he will be hurt by this when it becomes more commonplace, and his punish game will suffer when people get better at mashing - because down throw forward smash is not true at any reasonable percent and even on elite smash I have to go for down throw up tilt to have a reasonable guarantee of success at upwards of 130%.
 
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Diddy Kong

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K.Rool might get worse over time. Indeed. But that’s not now, and his crown still hits multiple times. So a grab could still lead into the crown. Dash attack is also a rather good approach for a heavy, and since he lives forever, he can afford more mistakes than others.

By the way, Fox looks more dangerous than in Smash 4 so far. Am betting he’s still Top Tier. He only wasn’t Top Tier in Brawl but that’s because of chain grab shenanigans.
 

DJ3DS

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K.Rool might get worse over time. Indeed. But that’s not now, and his crown still hits multiple times. So a grab could still lead into the crown. Dash attack is also a rather good approach for a heavy, and since he lives forever, he can afford more mistakes than others.

By the way, Fox looks more dangerous than in Smash 4 so far. Am betting he’s still Top Tier. He only wasn’t Top Tier in Brawl but that’s because of chain grab shenanigans.
Crown hits once on the way forward and once back. That doesn't make it harder to parry. Moreover, if the crown returns whilst he is grabbed by the opponent it often snaps to his head without hitting them.

Besides, just throw quickly, shield the returning crown, pick it up and have fun with it to be honest.
 

BunbUn129

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I'm one of those people who believes Fox is the best character in the game. Yes, he has weaknesses. Mediocre grab and throw game, disadvantage state in general, low weight. Could players do more to exploit these? Sure. But being the best in the game and having weaknesses aren't mutually exclusive. This game is turning out to be so well-balanced, especially for a release build. And it's a testament to that balance that the contender for the best has meaningful weaknesses.

The thing is very few changes were made to Fox from S4. Directly, I mean, and even then the reduced lag on his aerials is a cast-wide change. The only real Fox-specific changes were the larger up smash hitbox, an unexpected and important buff to an already great move on an already great character (someone on the dev team actually thought, "Yeah, this move needs a buff."), and his much faster air speed (AFAIK it's the greatest increase across veterans). But he's an example of how much engine changes can affect a character's abilities. Shield-grab nerfs effectively neuter the best option many fighters had for dealing with Fox's aerial pressure. Meanwhile, Fox's up smash is just as potent OoS, and his throws were never really good anyway. It's even scarier to be above him with up smash changes, his faster run speed, and the air dodge mechanics. If I'm not mistaken up air is a bit weaker but good God is that a necessity in this engine.

Despite the nerfs to dodging, cross-ups, and recoveries, I wouldn't be surprised if Fox's disadvantage is actually better than in the past game, if only slightly. Ever since Brawl got rid of momentum-retained jumping, Fox's aerial mobility has been one of his limiting factors, especially in disadvantage. Sheik got huge aerial mobility buffs coming into 4, and I'm kind of scared to see how much this change will boost Fox, because whereas Sheik went from mid-tier in Brawl to top-tier in 4, Fox was already one of the top-tiers last time.

If a character like Fox is the best, or one of the best, then this game is in a very good spot.

Edit:
also, has anyone seen the tip about shine-spiking? It seems even Sakurai wants Fox to be the best.
 
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