Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Vysetron]

It's me, your local thiccboi enthusiast, using an account I haven't touched in years to talk about heavies. Like ya do. What are my credentials? Don't have any besides playing smash forever. Let's go.

: My boy. My beautiful boy! What have they done to you?!

I know people are saying Bowser is ok this time around but I don't think it'll last. Like, even less so than most heavies do as the meta develops. He's just so clunky. Losing his throw shenanigans is a huge kick to the shell. I want to believe, but I'm not gonna be the one to put in the work to prove myself wrong.

: Gatdamn they gave Incineroar some fun toys. His recovery is an actual burning dumpster but everything else he has is pretty solid if you can deal with how incredibly slow he is. His command grab in particular is a standout. His matchups are going to swing hard one way or the other.

: Uh. Awkward. I was never a D3 player but didn't he used to be better than this? I don't dig it, especially when K. Rool is out there doing a lot of his gimmicks better.

: More flash than substance but everybody loves some flash. A lot of his moves are deceptively niche, by that I mean they look like they'd hit wider or harder than they actually do. You lean super hard on crown to get things done. Downsmash's invincibility has been greatly exaggerated and the edges of the hitbox are crap. I don't hate him, but you're only going to be able to armor through things and recover for free for so long before people learn to play around his gut and jetpack, respectively. Do I like him? Sure. Is he good? Ehhhh.

: Everyone says he's crap. I don't think he's THAT bad compared to similar big bodies. All his moves that aren't jab or nair are niche and his projectile is only good for edgeguarding purposes, but that's a more functional kit than some folks have. I can't bring myself to hate him. There's SOMEthing to Ridley. If someone stomps a tourney with him it won't be because he's secretly busted, it'll be because they're just that strong of a player and he's just all around okay.

: In a size class full of kings he's the one true king. Fast as hell, good normals, useful specials, armor on command, edge and ground game, and the throws of a golden god. He lost guaranteed ding dong but gained so much more. DK's the only one on this list I could see people maining and winning tournies without having to swap for bad matchups. What a baller.

Me personally, I haven't figured out what I'm doing yet. Still trying everyone out.

 

[The_Bookworm]

: My boy. My beautiful boy! What have they done to you?!

I know people are saying Bowser is ok this time around but I don't think it'll last. Like, even less so than most heavies do as the meta develops. He's just so clunky. Losing his throw shenanigans is a huge kick to the shell. I want to believe, but I'm not gonna be the one to put in the work to prove myself wrong.

Bowser had a lot of fun in SSB4 due to his throw combos and that everyone was simply scared of him. However, later in SSB4, Bowser fell off the map when everyone went around his one-dimensional gameplan and abuse how had his disadvantage is. Thus, he obtained merely average results at best (especially when compared to the great success of DK, who somewhat similar to Bowser, except he had better frame data, can actually swing in midair, and is in general much more flexible as a character).

In Ultimate, they nerfed his throw combos, but gave him a much needed lease in life. Bowser now has a very frightening neutral. Bowser's grounded game is much more threatening thanks to retaining his long reaching tilts, up B OoS option, and fast run speed, but is also blessed with the initial run standardization (he is tied with Charizard for the worst initial dash in SSB4), the ability to cancel his dash, and the general buffing to his grounded attacks. His tilts and smash attacks now has armor on all of them. His universal armor is even better as well. As a result, he can run up to face very effectively and throw out his fast and strong grounded attacks, and move around much better.

That isn't even the best part of him. For the first time in the series, he can actually swing in midair. The frame 3 jumpsquat benefits him tremendously. He can actually reliably get off the ground. His aerial pressure is also insane, as all of his aerials have much less landing lag and are overall improved. That is also mentioning that his aerial up B is now a KO move. A devastating move to catch airdodges. Speaking of which, the airdodging mechanics allows Bowser to more reliably threaten landings with his buttons, and also more reliably delete a stock offstage with is powerful aerials (his fair is very strong in that matter).

Btw, his side B also has very little startup lag, so landing on stage from the ledge with his side B is almost unreactable. Cool option to get out of disadvantage.

 

[J0eyboi]

I mean, the numerical change is pretty stark. You can compare @KuroganeHammer's numbers for Palu in Smash4 and Ultimate.

Notably, f-tilt and u-tilt do more damage and have way safer frame data. Autoreticle takes just as long, but the projectile come out meaningfully faster. (And tracks better) The net result is a pretty stark difference in spaced ground options, before even taking into account explosive flame.

That's what I've been doing, and I'm frankly unimpressed. Ftilt and Utilt are inarguably better, but better doesn't mean good. I still wouldn't be caught dead using Ftilt when I have Bair, Fair, and jab, and Utilt is still a great hitbox for antiairing attached to terrible frame data (even with 12 frames less endlag, it's still less safe on whiff than Roy's Fsmash) and bad reward; it being slightly less risky doesn't really change that.

IMO, her biggest buffs to her normals by far were to the things she had that were already good. Universal landing lag reductions combined with her improved short hop make Fair, Bair, Uair, and especially Nair much better moves, and her previously laggy-as-**** dash attack that was way too risky for what you got from it had its endlag cut down by a massive 14 frames, making it much safer to throw out and allowing for much better pressure when you land it. Usmash's active frames got doubled, which makes it even better at calling out people who dare to exist above you, and makes 2-framing with it easier.

Her projectile game is also a lot better, what with autoreticle functioning and Explosive Flame being pretty decent, but I'm having trouble imagining it all coalescing into a proper kit. Maybe that's just because I haven't tried or seen her enough, though. I'll try and fix that later today and see what I think then.

By the way, remember the other day when I made a spreadsheet and said I might be wrong about everything in said spreadsheet?

Dash initial speed mechanics is changed and lasts 5 frames now.
However you have to wait 1 frame from being applied, so your dash initial speed lasts frame 2-6 (or 3-7 for opposite directon) of dash animation.
In Smash 4, that was applied on only frame 1.

— Meshima (@Meshima_) December 18, 2018

I was, in fact, wrong about everything. I don't really have time to fix it right now, but I'll try to do so within a couple days.

 

[Rizen]

What do you guys think of ? (I hate these new icons) IMO she's overall a decent character. Zelda's weird because her neutral game is subpar but if she does land a sweetspot it's devastating. All her aerials sans Nair have crazy kill power and her smashes aren't bad either. She doesn't exactly have a good advantage state; it's more fishing for sweetspots. And Zelda's also very light so she's a glass cannon. Nayru's has always been a good reflector/GTFO attack. I think upB still elevator kills but I'm not sure; it's a good recovery. Phantom is better but you can just roll behind it and Utilt Zelda. Din's is weaker but easier to use, although she still doesn't have the best camping due to no spammable projectiles. She's an oddly undertuned character with OP sweetspots.

 

[NuNero1]

Well, I'm a Pit main and have been one since Brawl and guys I think everyone is still sleeping on these guys (Pit/DPit) because I KO'd a Shulk using dash attack when he was 107% and I three stocked a Sheik with little effort. There is no way in hell that the Pits are D-Tier, as what some are putting them at. I mean they have so many options to "kill" now and combo into, such as Dair to Nair and Fair, which I performed without blinking. As a Pit/DPit main throughout Smash 4, this makes me happy and I'm looking forward to see how the twins will play out in the long run.

 

[aarchak]

I got a couple more impressions:

gets destroyed by the Belmonts very hard. With their very horizontal zoning, Mac has little options to counter them due to his dumpster fire air game. Belmonts can just alternate between Holy Water and Cross to force Mac into the air if he wants to approach, then hit him with an aerial or Axe, and repeat until he's dead. He has no options to deal with either option, and the Belmonts can just alternate to constantly have an impenetrable horizontal wall.

is a glass cannon that's very, VERY cannon, but with some glass. His recovery is obviously terrible, but Revenge actually gives him an option against projectiles: just counter it. This heavily dissuades opponents from just throwing out projectiles in neutral, and gives him some counterplay against zoners. Darkest Lariat is a fine get-off-me option too. Where his strength lies is his ridiculous damage output and kill power that makes his offense very scary. Incineroar is a true grappler, especially in how the player needs to condition their opponent to fear them, so the opponent don't take risks and the Incineroar player can do what they want unchecked.

 

[Gérard Majax]

What do you guys think of ? (I hate these new icons) IMO she's overall a decent character. Zelda's weird because her neutral game is subpar but if she does land a sweetspot it's devastating. All her aerials sans Nair have crazy kill power and her smashes aren't bad either. She doesn't exactly have a good advantage state; it's more fishing for sweetspots. And Zelda's also very light so she's a glass cannon. Nayru's has always been a good reflector/GTFO attack. I think upB still elevator kills but I'm not sure; it's a good recovery. Phantom is better but you can just roll behind it and Utilt Zelda. Din's is weaker but easier to use, although she still doesn't have the best camping due to no spammable projectiles. She's an oddly undertuned character with OP sweetspots.

After playing against a few Zelda online (who looked like they kinda knew what they were doing), her advantage state looks pretty good imo. Uair is way scarier than before (faster, you only have a single airdodge, still kills at 90), phantom can help to cover a ****ton of options (it hits above platforms and under the stage lol), usmash beats most landing options (pretty disjointed I think, it beats Tink Dair). Most of her dthrow combos look like they are still there (wrong DI = eat a uair, nair at low%, is dthrow kick still a 50/50 though? haven't tested it enough).

Not a fan of playing against her with platforms involved (especially battlefield), because it feels like half of her moves put you at juuust the right height to fall on the platform at low to mid%. Not the easier to tech, and if you don't you eat a kick. Also teleport cancel stuff. Also Phantom covering platforms, the threat of uair/kicks if you stay too long on a platform, utilt under platforms.
Din's fire went from a completly useless move (outside of doubles) to an actually pretty annoying tool offstage if you don't have the best recovery (because again, one airdodge only). Imagine trying to get at the right angle to sweetspot the ledge with Wolf's side B for example, Din's pretty much beats that.

Agreed that her neutral game is not the best though, but I think she should more be looking to first get into advantage state and then land sweetspots rather than fishing for them in neutral (although it's definitely possible to land them raw against bigger chars). Haven't tested how safe her jab is on shield but it looked pretty good. Fsmash might not be safe at close range but it's hella big and kills at like 100 middle stage. Also yeah Nayru's is really good at its job, and teleport is still good so her disadvantage state is probably above average.

Decent sounds like a pretty good term to describe her. Not the best, probably a few rough matchups (who wins in a tennis Phantom war btw? like vs Wolf's down b), but she actually gets to play the game instead of being the complete mess she was in 4.

 

[Terotrous]

Mostly done with World of Light, so I've now had a chance to start playing a fair number of matches. Some of my thoughts:

is a mixed bag. I feel that all of his most critical tools from Smash4 got worse (Dash Attack, Jab, UpB), but the rest of his kit got better, so maybe it works out to about the same overall? I'm scared of swordies though, in Smash4 I would have thrown a lot of eggs in those matchups, but with eggs being worse now I try to go for more grabs? Not really sure how to handle them. Haven't decided if I'll continue maining this character.

is fantastic. Basically all of the nerfs from Brawl were reverted, so Olimar is back to being super strong. Side B does absolutely insane damage for no risk whatsoever, smashes are great, new throw is great, can't go wrong with this character. Top tier for sure.

is someone I'm enjoying way less than I expected. Ivysaur feels bad, she's just so slow and has taken a big range hit, Uair and Dair also feel way worse. Outside specific matchups I feel like I'd exclusively use Squirtle and Charizard. Zard is still Zard, still hits like a bus, everything kills, UpB actually links now, and Squirtle is good for building percent so I feel like the engine still works, it's just a let down that my other green dinosaur isn't really working out for me.

is still Palutena. She's gotten better in various ways, explosive flame is a nice option, and downthrow fair is still a thing, though her tilts are so bad, and Jab also got worse (it no longer combos into grab or anything other than rapid jab), so her ground options are almost laughably terrible in this game. Still, Nair is amazing and leads to all kinds of stuff and I've always kind of liked this character, may end up as my secondary.

is crazy go nuts super busted. At least top 3 if not #1. What would happen if we took Roy, made him way better, then removed the one thing that's held him back all these years? That's Chrom. He's got range, he's got speed, he's got absolutely insane power that rivals or exceeds Ike, he's got it all. This character straight up feels unfair both to play and to fight.

seems bad? My friend wants to main this character so I've been labbing her a bit to try to figure stuff out, she builds damage really well and seems to have good neutral, but she just doesn't kill at all, almost every stock takes 140%+, sometimes 160%+ until you get into upthrow kill range. Does she have any other reasonable kill options besides tipper FSmash and Bair? I'm aware that UpB kills but it's very hard to land due to its speed. Pin seems to just randomly kill sometimes but I can't quite figure how what makes it happen. Overall she kind of feels like Sheik with range, which is unique I guess.

are very good. Hugely buffed since 4, so much faster, sideB in particular is ridiculous now, even though it's shield grabbable you can mix up by omitting the 3rd / 4th hits, if they attempt to shield grab you between hits they'll get smacked so they have to respect it to some degree. Fantastic kill power too, great edgeguarders, swords are great, etc. At least high tier, even if they're not quite Chrom tier.

I feel is slept on. Having smashes actually link properly now is quite big, this character no longer really struggles to kill. Obviously you need to make the galaxy brain plays with can to really make this character shine, but I feel like there's potential here.

 

[J0eyboi]

Turned out I had more time today than I thought. I updated the initial dash data spreadsheet, and added values for dashing backwards (which is basically just dashing forwards but a frame slower) too. Still haven't fixed Sonic, Ridley, Captain Falcon, Sheik, or Fox though.

Do note that these numbers don't apply for dashdancing. Cancelling a dash into a dash in the opposite direction seems to cause the second dash to behave differently than it normally would.

 

[trickroom]

Well, I'm a Pit main and have been one since Brawl and guys I think everyone is still sleeping on these guys (Pit/DPit) because I KO'd a Shulk using dash attack when he was 107% and I three stocked a Sheik with little effort. There is no way in hell that the Pits are D-Tier, as what some are putting them at. I mean they have so many options to "kill" now and combo into, such as Dair to Nair and Fair, which I performed without blinking. As a Pit/DPit main throughout Smash 4, this makes me happy and I'm looking forward to see how the twins will play out in the long run.

It's definitely possible that the Pits are good, but "I won a match with them on quickplay" isn't compelling evidence. Talk more about their options, like the aerials/dash attack you mentioned

 

[Thinkaman]

gets destroyed by the Belmonts very hard. With their very horizontal zoning, Mac has little options to counter them due to his dumpster fire air game.

X to Doubt, or whatever.

I've dealt with Belmont projectiles so far the same way as any other: with judicious use of powershield/parry and side-b callouts on anyone who dares get predictable.

On one hand, Little Mac's side-b still seems to clip the side-b sometimes (but not always?) and can't go through the holy fire if it's already down. (So you can't simply do it on reaction and win 100% of the time) But on the other hand, Mac side-b seems to consistently go above f-tilt and f-smash, and Mac just does not care about axes obviously. His painful rushdown seems like a headache for Simon, frankly.

Mac can't recover against Belmonts since he typically can't recover low, but what else is new? They don't like disadvantage against him either.

 

[Minordeth]

Drive by post:

Turned out I had more time today than I thought. I updated the initial dash data spreadsheet, and added values for dashing backwards (which is basically just dashing forwards but a frame slower) too. Still haven't fixed Sonic, Ridley, Captain Falcon, Sheik, or Fox though.

Do note that these numbers don't apply for dashdancing. Cancelling a dash into a dash in the opposite direction seems to cause the second dash to behave differently than it normally would.

So, the entirety of the “initial dash” in terms of function, plays into how subsequent dashing works beyond the “initial” dash.

I made a lengthy post on this in the Frame Data thread, but I’ll just skip that and post this extremely relevant video about the core dash mechanics:

I suggest everyone watch this.

It goes into mechanics that are involved in every dash-related tech. Of course, it’s also relevant to every character given the inherent differences in action-availability both during and after the 7-14 frame deadzone.

 

[aarchak]

X to Doubt, or whatever.

I've dealt with Belmont projectiles so far the same way as any other: with judicious use of powershield/parry and side-b callouts on anyone who dares get predictable.

On one hand, Little Mac's side-b still seems to clip the side-b sometimes (but not always?) and can't go through the holy fire if it's already down. (So you can't simply do it on reaction and win 100% of the time) But on the other hand, Mac side-b seems to consistently go above f-tilt and f-smash, and Mac just does not care about axes obviously. His painful rushdown seems like a headache for Simon, frankly.

Mac can't recover against Belmonts since he typically can't recover low, but what else is new? They don't like disadvantage against him either.

Well, I think a bit differently. Zoning is all about mind games, much more so than any other archetype. It's all about reading (or at higher levels, conditioning) your opponent's next option to keep them away. Zoners hate ANYONE getting in, forget Mac, Marth gives them far more of a headache due to his fast speed and solid air game. With Mac being mostly restricted to the ground, his options are far narrower against these two than basically anybody else. It's basically side-b and parry projectiles, which can be read and counterplayed against. If the Mac parries Cross for example, then the Mac has 2 approach options. Either side-b at close range or run up and attack. A run-up is covered by f-tilt at close range and holy water at longer ranges, and the side-b can be parried. If the Belmont does not like the situation, off to platforms he goes. It's often not in Mac's favor a lot of the time, since he has to do 3 or so of these to get in, but the Belmont only needs one exchange to send Mac back and set up again. Usually, zoners have to deal with 4-5 options from an opponent (like run up shield, SH, FH, platforms, reflector moves, etc) and cover the right one each time. Mac usually only has 1-2, so it's far easier to zone him out. Of course, if he does get in, it's very bad for the Belmonts, but that's the case with Fox too, but he also can jump well and has a reflector too, giving him far more options than Mac.

I could go on about all the concepts of zoning, but tl;dr Mac has fewer options than everyone else when it comes to zoning and that makes approach mixups harder. Parrying is honestly what saves this matchup for Mac in my opinion. Without it, he'd get destroyed.

 

[Terotrous]

Well, I think a bit differently. Zoning is all about mind games, much more so than any other archetype. It's all about reading (or at higher levels, conditioning) your opponent's next option to keep them away. Zoners hate ANYONE getting in, forget Mac, Marth gives them far more of a headache due to his fast speed and solid air game. With Mac being mostly restricted to the ground, his options are far narrower against these two than basically anybody else. It's basically side-b and parry projectiles, which can be read and counterplayed against. If the Mac parries Cross for example, then the Mac has 2 approach options. Either side-b at close range or run up and attack. A run-up is covered by f-tilt at close range and holy water at longer ranges, and the side-b can be parried. If the Belmont does not like the situation, off to platforms he goes. It's often not in Mac's favor a lot of the time, since he has to do 3 or so of these to get in, but the Belmont only needs one exchange to send Mac back and set up again. Usually, zoners have to deal with 4-5 options from an opponent (like run up shield, SH, FH, platforms, reflector moves, etc) and cover the right one each time. Mac usually only has 1-2, so it's far easier to zone him out. Of course, if he does get in, it's very bad for the Belmonts, but that's the case with Fox too, but he also can jump well and has a reflector too, giving him far more options than Mac.

I could go on about all the concepts of zoning, but tl;dr Mac has fewer options than everyone else when it comes to zoning and that makes approach mixups harder. Parrying is honestly what saves this matchup for Mac in my opinion. Without it, he'd get destroyed.

Something you're missing in this analysis is that while his aerials are poor, Mac actually has very good air speed, so he can just jump over a lot of projectiles.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I finally got some meaty hands on experience, and of course tourneys have happened so that was informative too. Time for a dump:

This character is good and I love him. Really want to see people take this guy to the top. His recovery is still bottom-tier (improvements are overstated, however welcome), but all the buffs are meaningful and his playstyle benefits from speed creep perhaps the most of anyone in the entire cast??? I think parry optimization will also help him more than most, as doc should be able to consistently slap on a meaty little punish for parrying your dumb autopilot sword aerials.
I heard a pockets of intense initial optimism and then radio silence. I haven't played him much myself. But hey, dair SH ACs, so that's fun?
I have heard the most polarizing opinions on these two, and feel it in my own gameplay. Sometimes, as a Belmont or their opponent, I find myself saying "wow, that was so good, they covered all the options"; other times they just feel like a sack of potatoes. I wouldn't be surprised if their matchups end up very polarized? Worse case, they are the Little Mac of these game, and we all just figure out how to deal with them and move on. I bet they don't like people getting better at parries.

I have a LOT I want to respond to, so I'll start with this. I'll zero in on all of these, I think these are all good insights!

Doc: I think my last post on him covers all of my bases, but I do feel inclined to mention that his Down Air also has a crazy hurtbox shift upwards which makes it particularly good at beating lower hitboxes with a very, very strong punish. I think his playstyle benefits more from the huge damage upgrades he received and the way disadvantage state is handled in this game more than his rather meagre speed increase (he got less than the rest of the cast but its still especially noticeable in comparison to 4).

Falco: I'm gonna dual respond to both this and Ffamran when it comes to Falco: I think hes actually net even on his changes with regards to raw numbers outside of the universal less landing lag benefits he has received, and whatnot. He's gotten fairly robust range buffs on Bair (trading its speed for better use as a poke and overall being easier to hit with as F8 isnt really slow by this game's standard anyways) and moves like Jab actually connect properly now (or so it seems in my experience), but if he is overall static, why do I feel he's likely better?

I think, relevantly speaking, Falco's strengths offset much better in this engine than they do in 4's engine. When I think of why you'd play Falco beyond the cool low% combos, I think of a few things:
- The long lasting aerials great for edgeguarding and trapping
- The really good boxing game he has (in an ideal world anyways. Let's pretend S4 jab worked, Im aware it didnt. MOVING ON)
- Fairly hard hitting kill moves that dont really get weaker when they're out for a long time (Namely USmash, less of Bair in this regard, heh)

These sort of things are kinda good in Smash 4, but his low mobility combined with the game's rather restrictive pool of options you could do out of your movement left him awash, and the difficulty in edgeguarding that he had in spite of his kit was really....sad. I think in Ultimate, however, this pool of facts are of considerably more value! I'm unsure of the whole "top tier Falco" idea, but I think the character functions soooo much more fluidly in this game by virtue of things.....working. Just demonstrates how much weight engine changes carry for a lot of characters.

Belmonts: I'm unsure if we'll see a drop in Belmonts due to parrying. I think it'll snuff out their obvious dumb options but their projectiles are still very strong and their ability to control space is quite good. I think we'll curb a lot of the stuff they can get away with that ISN'T legitimate, but I do believe the characters are quite good at what they do. I think the fact that they have a solid invincible reversal (f5-6 invul) will be their biggest boon going forward with regards to their longevity. I'm very open to having my mind changed on them, and I do think they can be a tad overhyped sometimes, but I do feel like their strengths are relevant.

Also wrt Mac vs. Belmonts: I strongly doubt its a free W for the Belmonts, not just because Mac doesnt really mind their gameplan due to his speed, but I feel like they also favor similar stage layouts and so they'll both be performing at peak efficiency, though I think the Belmonts do enjoy a wider range of stages overall atm. I'm not counting any character out yet!

*breathes* I think that's it.

Oh yeah the Star Fox crew got the biggest buff ever by having English VAs given actual good voice direction. That is all.

 

[williamsga555]

Doc's much improved from the last game, imo, the engine changes really help him deal with his limitations better.

Also down b is dumb-strong, it has some genuinely absurd knockback on it (from a move that already had great knockback in 4). You catch anyone at the ledge at 80-90% and that should be stock.

 

[Thinkaman]

but I feel like they also favor similar stage layouts and so they'll both be performing at peak efficiency, though I think the Belmonts do enjoy a wider range of stages overall atm.

I'm no Belmont main, but I've enjoyed them more on Battlefield? It's so easy to cover and threaten platforms with them, and platforms are a pain for anyone who can't SH over the cross or fire. Great for axe!

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm no Belmont main, but I've enjoyed them more on Battlefield? It's so easy to cover and threaten platforms with them, and platforms are a pain for anyone who can't SH over the cross or fire. Great for axe!

I'm personally more inclined to go with FD because you're forced to either go to the ledge or try and land next to me, though Battlefield is one of their betters as well and I still have much to learn with them! In general though I think their flowchart of air trapping offsets better on FD since their platform sharking capabilities are on paper good but their movement speed doesnt let them make strong flexible use of it always, especially against high air speed characters. I've had people land on a platform and get down vs. me a lot in my time playing, though I naturally still have more to optimize with them.

on FD I can follow you till you're down and I can ideally trap that or wait for you to grab the ledge and accept faaaatttteee~.

My opinion on this could change later though!

Doc's much improved from the last game, imo, the engine changes really help him deal with his limitations better.

Also down b is dumb-strong, it has some genuinely absurd knockback on it (from a move that already had great knockback in 4). You catch anyone at the ledge at 80-90% and that should be stock.

Yeah. What's really changed is its damage on the last hit and the fact that it overall does more damage before the final hit now (Hits 7 times overall instead of 4 and all of these hits have had damage improvements.) Super fun move it is. Very easy to edgeguard with and just....such an absurdly good move now. Mario's Dair got buffed but I'd argue Doc's beyblade is far scarier now

 

[Ajani]

Drive by post:



So, the entirety of the “initial dash” in terms of function, plays into how subsequent dashing works beyond the “initial” dash.

I made a lengthy post on this in the Frame Data thread, but I’ll just skip that and post this extremely relevant video about the core dash mechanics:

I suggest everyone watch this.

It goes into mechanics that are involved in every dash-related tech. Of course, it’s also relevant to every character given the inherent differences in action-availability both during and after the 7-14 frame deadzone.

That was an interesting video. Do most pros think of these calcs?

 

[Yonder]

Bowser had a lot of fun in SSB4 due to his throw combos and that everyone was simply scared of him. However, later in SSB4, Bowser fell off the map when everyone went around his one-dimensional gameplan and abuse how had his disadvantage is. Thus, he obtained merely average results at best (especially when compared to the great success of DK, who somewhat similar to Bowser, except he had better frame data, can actually swing in midair, and is in general much more flexible as a character).

In Ultimate, they nerfed his throw combos, but gave him a much needed lease in life. Bowser now has a very frightening neutral. Bowser's grounded game is much more threatening thanks to retaining his long reaching tilts, up B OoS option, and fast run speed, but is also blessed with the initial run standardization (he is tied with Charizard for the worst initial dash in SSB4), the ability to cancel his dash, and the general buffing to his grounded attacks. His tilts and smash attacks now has armor on all of them. His universal armor is even better as well. As a result, he can run up to face very effectively and throw out his fast and strong grounded attacks, and move around much better.

That isn't even the best part of him. For the first time in the series, he can actually swing in midair. The frame 3 jumpsquat benefits him tremendously. He can actually reliably get off the ground. His aerial pressure is also insane, as all of his aerials have much less landing lag and are overall improved. That is also mentioning that his aerial up B is now a KO move. A devastating move to catch airdodges. Speaking of which, the airdodging mechanics allows Bowser to more reliably threaten landings with his buttons, and also more reliably delete a stock offstage with is powerful aerials (his fair is very strong in that matter).

Btw, his side B also has very little startup lag, so landing on stage from the ledge with his side B is almost unreactable. Cool option to get out of disadvantage.

This, basically. Bowser is much better in this game. I was never able to place either him, but i got top 8 at my local using (mostly) solo Bowser. His weight increase is so ridiculous that he can turn games around in a snap, living till 200 is common with him, which i was. I'd do a write-up but the quoted post more than suffices. Literally everything sides grab combos were buffed for Bowser....and good luck dealing with falling fair offstage. Most people can't

 

[Thinkaman]

Xanadu is making Wolf look a lot better than this thread. Seagull Joe is also giving a persuasive display of Palutena tilts, including d-tilt on the ledge.

 

[Rizen]

Clone wars time: which echo fighter is better? I've heard Ken's better than Ryu. Is Pit still better than edgy Pit? How about the Belmonts, Princesses, FE clones, etc? Lets throw Dr.Mario/Mario and Villager/Isabelle in there too even though they're not true clones.

 

[Minordeth]

That was an interesting video. Do most pros think of these calcs?

I doubt it.

The main reason is that the video has an extremely low number of views and the original tweets containing that info seemed to be relatively contained.

Of course, knowing this info is vital if you want to optimize your character. Some characters ability to shield out of dash in half the frames of others is undoubtedly important, for instance. Knowing when the 7-14 frame deadzone happens visually on your character or knowing when and what you can buffer versus important MUs for your character is probably useful, yes?

 

[J0eyboi]

So, I played some Palu, watched some Palu, labbed some Palu, and looked at some more data.

I can now safely say that I think Palu is really good. I do not, however, believe it has anything to do with her tilts, which, while more useful than in 4, still basically all suck except dtilt which covers ledge well. It has more to do with the buffs she got everywhere else, especially in advantage.

Smash 4 Palu didn't have a very good advantage state. She could juggle okayish, but her massive endlag on everything meant she was liable to get punished for misreading an option, and her damage output was just bad. The most damage you were ever going to get off a Palu combo was like 32% off dthrow double nair, which only worked on fastfallers at low percents and was extremely inconsistent in general. Now, though? Palu's damage is pretty good. Nair can combo into itself multiple times at low percents, especially on fastfallers and heavyweights (you can get 5 nairs off a dthrow on K.Rool), which is really good damage, as Nair still does 13.5%. Dthrow is an even better combo throw than in Smash 4, having virtually no knockback growth (though uair's kbg seems to have taken a hit to compensate). Palu can now get 30-40% guaranteed off a lot of neutral wins, whereas in Smash 4 she struggled to even get 20. In addition, she seems well suited to trapping directional airdodges, what with her good aerial drift and Explosive Flame. Her old juggling tools got buffed, she gained new ones, her damage got better, and her improved mobility helps facilitate all of that.

Oh right, the mobility. Literally every single one of Palutena's mobility specs got buffed except maybe jump height. Her run speed got the universal 10% buff, and her dash speed was massively improved just like everyone else, but her air speed was buffed more than average, going from 0.91 to 1. Her already great air accel was also buffed for some reason, going from 0.1 to 0.105. Her fall speed was improved slightly, which compliments her gravity increase, making her gravity higher than Roy's. Her walk speed was also buffed a tiny amount. The sum total of all this when combined with the generally greater freedom of movement in Ultimate is that Palu is really mobile now, and that mobility does wonders for her neutral.

In other news, Nicko just made it into grands on winners side at HAT, and he's really showing off what Shulk can do. The fact that Arts aren't on a 45f delay anymore makes his gameplay just feel so much smoother.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Talking about Diddy again, because I cannot allow myself to touch another character before I feel I mastered Diddy; and I don't want ZeRo's latest Tier List video to put shame on my the character's name.

Yes, he requires more thought and commitment. Bananas are easier to catch by the enemy. And harder to use on shield. However with the hitstun increase, you should still find enough openings, and the banana > F Smash is still a very easy punishment on laggy moves, or roll abusers. You can't be as defensive as in Smash 4, where ZeRo mastered Diddy with superb defensive play. On the upperhand, aerial usage of banana is a sexy thing. You can drop the banana below, and then quickly follow up with a grounded F Smash in situations.

The new jab is kind of underwhelming, but jab wasn't ever our bread & butter anyway. The extra damage the tail waggle could do, you can replace with the faster pummel. In general, go for grabs. Banana > Grab is even a thing I do now, cause you can get a lot of damage out of it. Landing multiple B Airs out of a grab is easier now I feel. Forward Air is also easier to spam, deals less damage, but has edgeguard properties now against characters that cannot recover well.

Don't believe ZeRo either when he says his Smashes are weaker, F Smash is definitely stronger now. D Smash was only a kill move in Brawl, but is now stronger than in 4, but U Smash is nerfed because of the ceilings. U Smash also lacks the 'pulling you in' effect which it used to have, which is kind of a shame.

Neutral Air is a move that's hugely buffed. A great landing option, and a good way to send enemies upward for a easy aerial follow up. Need to practise with this move more.

D Tilt isn't that good anymore, but still hella fast. Follow ups are harder to do, noticably U Smash, I need to practise this move more because honestly I also never really used it all that much in Smash 4.

Anyway, Diddy is now a evasive grappler or sort. Banana kill set ups are best used as punishment now, D Throw leads to any significant aerial consistently, and long range banana punishes are now possible thanks to running F Smash. Dash attack is also buffed and leads to F Air easily.

Now another character: Mewtwo.

He’s buffed in weight, still has amazing recovery in a game where recovery is nerfed. Shadow Ball and f Smash are way stronger, running U Smash is great punishment and good anti aerial even at times. He’s got faster movement, aerial pressure is scary, and he’s got amazing edge guard capicities. If he was Top Tier last time, he’s definitely Top Tier now.

 

[Marmotbro]

I know I posted waaaay earlier in the thread with an early tier list, but now that I've gotten more time with the game lemme throw in more of my 2 cents. I guess that would make it 4 cents now?

Has the potential to be a top tier, but he really takes some galaxy brain plays and luck to fully pull off. You can just abuse grenades and C4 to cheese people, but that doesn't work in all matchups or against people who know how to deal with you.

is a top tier, or at the very least high tier. His side B is way better, its a good punish tool now or a way to counter spam. He still has top and all the shenanigans that brings. His aerials are much faster, meaning he is hard as balls to contest in the air. His upair is nigh uncontestible for most of the cast and kills reliably. He still suffers from a lot of problems he had in smash 4 (big hitbox, bad tilts) but he is much improved. Fear the Robot.

is better then he was, but the bike nerf was kinda uncalled for and ruins his flow for me as I used the bike a lot as him. Really the worst thing about the bike is there is not indicator when you get it back, so you can be a second early and die for it when trying to recover. Also his dash attack doesn't set up strings anymore. He actually can use his aerials safely however, so he is much better overall, but the bike nerf kills it for me.

isn't bottom tier like a lot of people think. Her only real issue that keeps her from being really great is her weird ass hitboxes hurts her as much as her enemy. If they made some of them hit more reliably she would be great.

, my main in smash 4, is such a sleeper. His Gordo game is much better with the change to inhale and the wall-stick. He has surprisingly fast attacks, and his recovery is nearly impossible to gimp. His aerials are oppressive and strong. His main weakness is his geriatric airspeed.

is absolutely the strongest character in the game. Their kit has too much, they are likely to have some nerfs. Their ink mechanic is ****ing borked, most of their BnB aerials ink, and you can take up to 50% more(!) damage from getting inked. They have a kill confirm at decently high percents with ROAD ROLLER into down or up smash, their dash is unreadable (are they gonna grab or dash attack?) and dont get me started on how good they are in doubles. They also have one of the safest recoveries. Despite all this, I find them fun to fight.
There is no reason to ever pick competitively. is him but with a sword, and is him but with aerials. I guess if you really like K.O. punch go for it.

is better than in almost every way. Only reason to pick is if you like FLUDD or recovering.

is better than in almost every way, but we will see more play because is so unsafe to play. You gotta really have balls to play the little guy against people who can kill you easy, and there are a lot of people who can kill you easy.

is slept on. He is better than imho just because of his killthrows and how PK fire works. You can just PK fire into fsmash or dash attack for some really high numbers.

is just a better unless the fire hadoken is somehow way better for the matchup.

is better then and might be better then .

aren't as bad as people think. They are actually pretty well rounded, the only problem I find is their attacks are real stubby and sometimes Nana doesn't want to upB, meaning you can just die because the game said **** you.

is really slept on. He has some of the best edgeguarding in the game. You can just when they are off the ledge and there is a pretty good chance they die from it. His fair can carry you out pretty far, and his UpB kills when it feels like it shouldn't.

has the potential to be the best character I've talked about. He is janky and weird but i feel like some nerd is gonna lab him out and find out he is a monster in this game. Or I'm completely wrong and he is a worse .

 

[FeelMeUp]

hello.
feels amazing.
Character has amazing edgeguarding in a game with largely mediocre recoveries, a goofy good RC grab, great (albeit mostly short ranged) normals, a broken projectile (self damages .5% and does something ridiculous like 8-12% while giving guaranteed followups), Luma-tier nonsensical kill power in the form of setups that shouldn't work but do and kill at rather generous ranges(Utilt > Discharge, Dtilt > Dair, Dtilt > Fsmash, Uair > Thunder, etc), and most of 's stupid stuff but randomly inflated or reduced in certain areas.

She'll likely be top 3-5 at ledgetrapping once people improve at doing so under Ultimate's engine.
Dev team tuned down automatic ledge trap options like Fox Up Tilt and Zelda Down Tilt but gave Pichu a Dtilt that can hit below ledge to confirm into either:
A: Kill moves like Bair, Dair, Fair, and Fsmash
B: Combos that either do 50% or kill off an initial guaranteed Utilt into Thunder
????

Then there's also random privileges like f3 nair + large f4 Uair, the ridiculousness that is Forward Tilt, being tiny as hell, having some of the earliest consistent kills off of jablocks, Tjolt camping and one-touch deaths seemingly killing the viability of some character matchups, etc.
The quality of life change in reducing the number of ridiculously good kill throws definitely helps when playing the lightest character in the game as well.
Only real issue I have with her are matchups that feel rough if you're not setting up a tent and committing to throwing Jolts for 3 minutes at a time ()

 

[ARISTOS]

hello.
feels amazing.
Character has amazing edgeguarding in a game with largely mediocre recoveries, a goofy good RC grab, great (albeit mostly short ranged) normals, a broken projectile (self damages .5% and does something ridiculous like 8-12% while giving guaranteed followups), Luma-tier nonsensical kill power in the form of setups that shouldn't work but do and kill at rather generous ranges(Utilt > Discharge, Dtilt > Dair, Dtilt > Fsmash, Uair > Thunder, etc), and most of 's stupid stuff but randomly inflated or reduced in certain areas.

She'll likely be top 3-5 at ledgetrapping once people improve at doing so under Ultimate's engine.
Dev team tuned down automatic ledge trap options like Fox Up Tilt and Zelda Down Tilt but gave Pichu a Dtilt that can hit below ledge to confirm into either:
A: Kill moves like Bair, Dair, Fair, and Fsmash
B: Combos that either do 50% or kill off an initial guaranteed Utilt into Thunder
????

Then there's also random privileges like f3 nair + large f4 Uair, the ridiculousness that is Forward Tilt, being tiny as hell, having some of the earliest consistent kills off of jablocks, Tjolt camping and one-touch deaths seemingly killing the viability of some character matchups, etc.
The quality of life change in reducing the number of ridiculously good kill throws definitely helps when playing the lightest character in the game as well.
Only real issue I have with her are matchups that feel rough if you're not setting up a tent and committing to throwing Jolts for 3 minutes at a time ()

How do you feel about

 

[WumboTheSecond]

How does everyone feel about Chrom as a competive choice?

 

[zeldasmash]

How does everyone feel about Chrom as a competive choice?

He's considered top tier by pretty much everyone and would be the best character in the game had the Inklings not be as good as they are. In the current stage of the game, he's a great pick. I do see him dropping once parrying becomes more figured out or mastered but still a top tier.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

is absolutely the strongest character in the game. Their kit has too much, they are likely to have some nerfs. Their ink mechanic is ****ing borked, most of their BnB aerials ink, and you can take up to 50% more(!) damage from getting inked. They have a kill confirm at decently high percents with ROAD ROLLER into down or up smash, their dash is unreadable (are they gonna grab or dash attack?) and dont get me started on how good they are in doubles. They also have one of the safest recoveries. Despite all this, I find them fun to fight.

I'm, like, 99% sure none of Inkling's aerials apply ink. She has to use rapid jab, fthrow, a smash, or a special. (Unless you meant to say they link but accidentally a letter.)

I admit to being confused by Chrom's consensus placement. What makes him so good? I've tried using him myself and I can see his raw power but he just doesn't seem to flow well. Maybe it's my lack of Roy experience.

 

[Marmotbro]

How does everyone feel about Chrom as a competive choice?

Right now he is arguably in the top three. Once people get better at the game I feel that would change, he has a lot of matchups that mess him up.


Also whoops ParanoidDrone, i meant to say attacks not aerials, my B. Chrom is really good because he is a fast as **** sword boy who doesn't have to space, has easy to hit kill moves and everything he does hurts. His recovery isn't as bad as a lot of people thought, its hard to contest.

 

[NotLiquid]

I'm, like, 99% sure none of Inkling's aerials apply ink. She has to use rapid jab, fthrow, a smash, or a special. (Unless you meant to say they link but accidentally a letter.)

Yeah none of their aerials ink, but you can link a NAir into a jab pretty easily at low percents.

I'm still not entirely convinced that they're the best character in the game, at least in terms of an overwhelming margin. Inklings struggle pretty hard with range, both in terms of their own attacks and being outranged by others. All of their tilts are fairly mediocre with the exception of Forward Tilt which is a decent spacing move. Up tilt combos, but has some extremely awkward hitboxes. Most of their kill confirms aren't reliable, with the Booyah being extremely character dependent, and roller can be easily punished if your character has any decent out of shield option. I feel like the move occupies the same headspace right now as Heel Slide, where people get overly intimidated of getting hit by it and taking damage/losing a stock over it, that opponents experience a lapse of reason in the process.

They definitely have one of the most consistent kits out of any character in the game, but they struggle pretty hard with swordies, and they're by no means free. If by some means they do end up being the best character, that kind of speaks to how well balanced this game is, honestly.

 

[Marmotbro]

Also I want to point out that I don't think woomys are super OP, hell I'm not even sure if they are OP, when compared to the best characters of past games. just strike me as not having any real major weaknesses and some very, very good stuff, not to mention they are fluid and easy to get a grip on. Even when people understand the game better I think they still will be good, their kit is just very solid.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I'll do some stuff

Ness: The transition into Ulitmate did him well. He's better than before and more technical of a character now. The ability to dash dance properly again is big for him as his initial dash is as fast as Pits normal run speed which gives him much needed ground speed and allows him to play around disjointed attacks much better now. The inclusion of DAD gives him a much needed recovery boost and the overall nerf to air dodges hurts his opponents far more than they hurt him. People are too focused on downthrow nerfs (You can still combo off down throw) and pay too much attention to his recovery (which admittedly is still bad but still better than Chrom's) to see what all he's being blessed with.

PK Fire- This move is SO much better now. You may not be able to get as easy grabs off it now but it's gained so much more usage. It's faster now coming out on frame 18. The activation hitbox is larger as is the Fire pillar. The move has more shield stun now which makes its safe at far range and therefore it now has actual use as a zoning tool and gives Ness much needed range to help against his primary weakness (Disjoints). Aerial PKF has very little landing lag making it a valid landing option and allowing Ness to use burst options like SH DJC PKF. It's still traps about the same as before and with a buffed Dair, getting trapped by it off stage is a stock everytime. It's much more better of a neutral tool and overall a good move now.

Magnet- Magnet is so much fun to play around with. The hitbox is opening up many possibilities that Ness didn't have before. It has fixed knockback so any magnet combo is true regardless of percentage and you can combo a SH magnet into a bair or drag down up air (which combos into grab) at kill percentages. Magnet itself isn't safe on block so it's not something you can just throw out but it use for extending combos cannot be understated. The hitbox has use in Edge guarding has it sends at an unfavorable angle when your hit by it while airborne and being constantly active means you can just drop off stage and hold Magnet. Magnet locks, allowing to set up easy tech chases on platforms. You can even use it to land occasional against characters with bad vertical range, the hitbox fully covers Ness and moves that don't have a lot of range will get beat out by it. This is still being researched but it also seems that Magnet can straight neutralize some projectiles it's can't absorb (Like link's boomerang) which once we figure out why and how will be a huge buff in projectile MUs.

Up air- While I do miss the big noggin his new up air is better. It still has a massive hitbox, it still kills, its still safe on shield. But now it also had added utility in being an easy cross up option on shields and the drag down aspect of the move. You can combo a lot off of drag down up air at any percentage, drag down up air leads to grabs, up smash (which kills now) up tilt which sets up more drag down up airs, etc. Its a really good move still and the pre-release consistency issues have been fixed so it's rare that an opponent will fall out of it where you don't want them to.

Edge Guarding- Ness has some of the most oppressive edge guarding in this game. Down smash straight invalidates a lot of recovery options and forces them to go high which is easily covered when you know it's coming with an Up smash or up air. You do have to release the down smash right when the opponent hits the yoyo otherwise some characters can DAD upwards and recover but if your timing is right youll straight make ledge impossible to grab. The nerf to air dodges also make PKT tail whips and even PK Flash (which is much faster now) hard to avoid and requires the opponent to be very cautious off stage at no risk to Ness himself.

There is plenty more I can go on about but this post is getting long and I don't want to have to proofread the whole thing lol. TL;DR: Ness is good, not a top tier by any chance but definitely better than before and should remain relevant provided he doesn't get nerfed any.

 

[Nobie]

If there's any character that's going to be a huge headache for the Belmonts, I actually think it's Mega Man.

Against rushdown characters, there's going to be a clear sense of who's doing well. Belmonts want to keep opponent out, rushdown characters want to get in.

But Mega Man operates at a similar effective range as the Belmonts, only with a faster ranged option in pellets to stuff the whip. His superior mobility means escaping to platforms or into the air comes at a risk, and leaves them vulnerable to up air in a bad way. And if the Belmonts are off stage, their overall terrible recovery leaves them more susceptible to Mega Man's projectile edge guards than anyone else).

 

[Lord Dio]

her tilts, which, while more useful than in 4, still basically all suck except dtilt which covers ledge well.

actually, I'd like to disagree here.
Up tilt has a clear hurtbox shift dowards, which is already advantageous. It also can shark low enough platforms, and beats out or trades with a lot of aerial approaches, and can hit some characters standing up, it's generally a good anti-air get off me option.

F tilt, well, it's not MUCH better but it has it's uses. It can trade with a few things (practically nullifies nikita and roller), has surprisingly large range, and has kill potential. It's definitely the worst of the tilts, but it still has it's uses.

 

[J0eyboi]

Up tilt has a clear hurtbox shift dowards, which is already advantageous. It also can shark low enough platforms, and beats out or trades with a lot of aerial approaches, and can hit some characters standing up, it's generally a good anti-air get off me option.

I agree that it's got a really good hitbox, but its endlag makes it both low-reward and high-risk. Given how well dash attack anti-airs and how well upsmash controls the space above her, it's a pretty niche option.

F tilt, well, it's not MUCH better but it has it's uses. It can trade with a few things (practically nullifies nikita and roller), has surprisingly large range, and has kill potential. It's definitely the worst of the tilts, but it still has it's uses.

Ftilt actually has similar properties to Little Mac's ftilt; it's a multihit that can't rebound, which means it can be used as a "**** your ground moves" option. That said, it's significantly worse at that than Little Mac's because it's frame 14, rather than frame 4, and Dash Attack kinda already does the whole "**** your ground moves" thing, while also doing the whole "**** your air moves" thing.

Like I said, Palu's tilts are more useful than in Smash 4, but they're still not good moves.

[Chrom's] recovery isn't as bad as a lot of people thought, its hard to contest.

It really isn't. It doesn't have a hitbox above him while rising, throwing out any lingering button will beat it. It also loses hard to projectiles and counters.

 

[DavemanCozy]

How does everyone feel about Chrom as a competive choice?

He's got all the advantages of Roy - KO power included - with none of the disadvantages of weak sword tip.

His shield pressure is very good, and although I do think parrying is very useful against him, it's a lot harder to do that consistently. He's very good at juggling as well thanks to his u-tilt, u-air, and fast air speed. And he's got a 0-death suicide confirm into his Up-B.

A bit off-topic: I really hope Chrom doesn't get nerfed anytime soon, as I'd rather develop proper counter-play, rather than rely on what would feel like a knee jerk reaction nerf.

 

[Fastblade5035]

I picked up after struggling to reconnect with and after having mained all the Links at some point in time.

Here's why I think Toon Link very well might be the best of the 3 objectively, or at the very least, is being slept on hard compared to his counterparts. (Understandably so, given that they both had a lot of hype going into Ult, but hype doesn't equate to being the best)

• His tilt and jab compliment his playstyle. He doesn't want to be up close, and all his tilts are fast 'get off me' options to ensure that you have room to breathe if someone gets too close for comfort. Jab connects perfectly due to the new jab mechanics so it's also safe for a quick capitalization on shield drops. Generally you won't use his grounded close range options much, but they do their job well. I don't feel like any of them are a detriment to use, or have major drawbacks, like Link's ftilt (endlag) or Young Link's rapid jab (leaves you wide open for punish if shielded).
• Spin Attack is amazing. It's not quite as free a 'get off me' button as Zelda's neutral b, but just like Young Link this one will catch the shield drops of people who underestimate it. It has range so that you will want to use Spin Attack over any tilts at higher percents simply for the increased damage and knockback. The lingering hitbox is also great for catching dodges and rolls. This is all just grounded, too. Aerial spin attack can be used to edgeguard. If you go off stage and miss your mark, you can up b facing away from ledge and still make it back, even from a pretty respectable distance below the stage. The lingering hitbox sucks up enemies very well and Toon Link's size and speed mean you risk very little for going off to begin with, so the Spin Attack is just an added safety net and tool. Also, grounded spin attack always launches the enemy the direction you're facing, which has a ton of utility in practice. Seriously, the versatility of this one move is insane.
• Aerials. This is a big deal with Young and Toon, so here's my take on Toon's. His up air is better than Young Links simply for the kill power he has over Young. Young Link's up air is still fantastic, but Toon has the same lingering hitbox with better kill power. Sure, the range is marginally smaller, but in my experience that hasn't mattered at all since Toon's jumps are more than good enough to make up for it. Forward Air and Down Air are where things change the most and are the most arguable. TL Forward Air: Very fast, very strong. Single hit, so you won't be catching airdodges with this. However, it being single hit and fast means you can act out of it before Young Link can with his. You commit less, but you still get plenty for hitting it. Toon Link wants his fair to shield pressure and to kill, and it does those both well. With a bomb on shield you can Fair to hit the shield and catch it with fair. In fact, you even have enough drift and time to move after fair that, in my experience at least, I can drift back after catching the bomb and throw it again. This can lead to conditioning on how to approach the shield, you can start to mix things up with grabs and lingering moves to catch shield drops. Fair also kills reliably, which is always nice to have. Young Link's fair kills too, but I feel more comfortable fishing for a single hit fair (which can be linked after a bomb hit, even) to close a stock. The hitbox on Toon Link's fair is also rising from below, which I feel is a boon above Young Links. Young may have trouble connecting his Fair against smaller opponents or people who tend to hug the ground more with their animations, whereas Toon Link can hit a much wider range of people.
• Down Air is maybe better on Young overall, but I don't think Toon's is bad as a result. It's different, and has some unique attributes to set it apart. To my knowledge, you can still use bomb catching tech to down air and save yourself from SDing by timing the explosion. That means you have a spike that Young Link doesn't, with a much faster fall speed, but also a way to work around the suicide part. It also can be great to catch ledge getups. Bombs are already a great ledge pressure tool, but if you catch someone in a zair drop bomb you can easily land a dair that will close their stock or dish some painful damage. No need to go off stage either, just above it since the bomb will bring them to you just enough.
• Nair is also quite different so it's hard to compare Toon Link's directly to Youngs. I like both, but Toon's trades landing utility and combo flow for better damage, as well as a back-hitting hitbox. In 4, I felt nair was very awkward on Toon Link and it's one of the things that turned me off from him. In ult however, it has much better hitboxes and can hit enemies much better when shorthopped. I think Toon Link's nair may be weaker when directly compared to Youngs, but Toon Link's nair still does wonders with his bomb setups and is fast enough that you can mix and match combinations of bombs, aerials, bomb drops, drifting, etc to do many things against enemies.
• Toon Link's air speed is worse than Young Link, but he is faster on the ground and honestly doesn't have that bad air speed anyway. That said I think the difference between the two in practice is mostly marginal but still, I think Toon's improved speed helps with the next big thing:
• The specials. The crux of Toon Link has to be his projectiles. I think he relies more on these as a whole than any other Link, easily. That's a good thing if you ask me. While Young Link excels better with close range stuff, I think Toon feels more 'minmaxxed' toward his zoning. All of his projectiles are amazing.
• Arrows: While Young Links fire arrows have a lot of hype and are undeniably great, Toon's are also really excellent for shutting down other people. They can be rapid-fired and I tend to use them frequently to completely shut down the charges of characters like Robin, Samus, and to overwhelm other, slower projectile based characters like Simon. It can be incredibly disruptive to their gameplans and since Toon Link is so fast and has 3 great projectiles, the arrows (and boomerang) can swing the camp wars in his favor very easily. His size and speed are also huge boosts to this strategy.
• Boomerang is pretty straightforward, but I will add that it's a very viable close range option too. You can get a fair off of a boomerang hit up close at very high percents, I've closed stocks more than I thought I would with close range boomerang followups.
• Bombs. Bombs are the bread and butter of Toon Link. While Links are, at least in my opinion, gimmicky, Toon's are as reliable and core to his gameplay as ever. Basically, if you fought a great TL in 4, or watched one, you know what Toon Link can do with his bombs. Quite possibly one of the most versatile tools in the entire game, Toon Link has so many different options with his bombs. To name a few, you can zair drop all over a stage like you're playing mini Snake, you can dominate the neutral with bomb throws and bomb catches to keep your opponent at your wavelength, you can (and should) cover your landing with them, you can get followups from bomb hits and kill confirms, you can hold bombs to escape potentially deadly enemy setups (like rapidjabs at high percents, or 2+ hit moves that kill at the end), you can shut down enemy projectiles like Simon's cross or K Rool's blunderbuss cannonball, the list goes on and on.
• Fsmash. I hear a lot that Toon Link's is "worse, but not bad" than Young Link's fsmash. I... don't agree. I think it's just as good, honestly. Yeah, Young Link's fsmash is good, but Toon Link's is also quite good. Just because he lost the insane fsmash he had before doesn't mean this one isn't as good. I think it fits him better not just aesthetically but for his playstyle as well. Like all his tilts and close range options suggest, Toon Link doesn't want to be up close for any longer than he needs to. Fsmash is now a single upward slash. In practice you'll find it sends him a bit forward when he throws it out, and you'll also notice it has deceptively good range. It can catch people landing and doesn't hurt half as bad to whiff as Young Link's does, whose Fsmash is so commital you may as well let go of the controller if you miss landing it. Toon Link's pivot fsmash is one of my favorites so far and a seriously great option he has to cover himself with. You can very safely and consistently retreat behind a wall of bombs and a returning boomerang and pressure with a pivot fsmash to anyone who tries to rush you down. It hurts, and it kills when it should. No complaints from me, I like it a lot.
• Down Smash and up smash are also good, fast and short kill moves when you need them to, not much to add.

tl;dr: Toon Link, to me, seems the best defined Link in terms of playstyle matching his moveset. You want to move fast, throw ****, get wild with your bombs when you need to, fish for your kill confirms, get out. You also have plenty of tools to ensure you can always retreat, proceed to throw more ****, disrupt anyone who tries to do the same, and you also have tools to deal with people who try to get in your face. Toon Link has a set objective and everything in his kit is used to its' fullest. Like I said before, I feel he's the most "min maxed" Link, he puts all his chips into one direction and runs with it, and does it well. I personally think Toon Link is very slept on at the moment, and lacks as many downsides as his biggest competition, Young Link. He has kill power spread out that Young Link wishes he had, he has better synergy with his bombs, better ground speed, etc. I don't think the gap is huge, but I do think Toon is a bit better overall. I think if you try to play Young Link like Toon Link you will want to just play Toon Link instead, and if you try to play Toon like Young it just won't work, so there's that for anyone who might think the two can copypaste their playstyles.

toon link's sword swing taunt is >>>>>>>>>>>> than any of Young Link's taunts too, since you can cancel it the end animation and just endlessly swing like a madman, whereas Young Link's milk taunt got gutted of what made it great to begin with


edit: How could i forget, Toon Link's throws. Down throw connects to back air at low percents on most characters and works at mid percents on big or heavy characters, which is nice. Also, back throw is a great kill throw and definitely a big boon Toon has over his counterparts.

Edit 2: Here's the best TL and YL vid I can find right now, I think it demonstrates the differences I was trying to explain very well. Maybe I should've just linked this instead of trying to explain stuff I clearly am not an expert in lmao