• The new bonus episode of the Smash Brothers Documentary Metagame, Godslayer, is now available on Vimeo

  • Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

?


  • Total voters
    568

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,092
That would probably be very relevant if this was pre-8.0.0 K. Rool.

However, his belly armor is able to take so much hits now, specifically 36.2 HP of damage (technically it is 18.1 HP, but since the armor splits damage between itself and K. Rool, it is effectively double that). Pre-patch, it was 28.2 HP.
.
36 isnt enough. he has multiple moves that do north of 20. hell sweep and others can break it alone. its not a game k roll wants to play.
 

StrangeKitten

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 25, 2020
Messages
1,561
Location
Pokemon Stadium 2
I haven't had the chance to play other people online or offline since Kazuya came out, but I'm predicting Incineroar to be and absurdly volatile matchup. I think it's maybe slightly in Kazuya's favor because his kit is so versatile and both want to fight up close, but Incineroar is barely bothered by tough body and heavy armor, and even ONE successful Revenge from Incineroar seems like it can turn the situation right around. Even more than against Ganon, it's like any stray hit you absorb from Kazuya means Alolan Whip is liable to do 60% or 70% damage.
Incin is one of my favorite characters to fight Kazuya with. His aerials all do enough damage to not worry about the armor too much, and indeed, a single Revenge does dummy damage/kills Kazuya super early, if you pull it off. Darkest Lariat is also one of the best moves for edgeguarding Kazuya thanks to its long-lasting hitbox, so Incin can also exploit Kazyua's weak recovery.
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
6,492
Location
Madison, WI
NNID
Thinkaman
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
I feel like K.Rool tripping from blocking EWGF kills any matchup potential he has against this character lol
So, for the uninitiated, EWGF forces a shield drop and pushback whose distance+duration is based on weight. This ranged from -1 on Bowser/K.Rool to +7 on Pichu if I counted correctly.

But this trip chance I didn't know about.
  • Is it just K.Rool, all characters, or some set?
  • What is the % chance? It didn't happen for me.
  • Is it pure random, or is some other factor in play?
 
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
599
NNID
User7a1
So, for the uninitiated, EWGF forces a shield drop and pushback whose distance+duration is based on weight. This ranged from -1 on Bowser/K.Rool to +7 on Pichu if I counted correctly.

But this trip chance I didn't know about.
  • Is it just K.Rool, all characters, or some set?
  • What is the % chance? It didn't happen for me.
  • Is it pure random, or is some other factor in play?
So, I also tried testing this too, but I could not replicated it. I thought maybe slopes could play a role (for the off chance the Dojo's FD form is somehow tilted), but that didn't work either. The only thing I can think of is maybe mods are messing with the values? I doubt it, though.

I did learn that if EGWF can break a shield, it'll break the shield (or possibly poke through the shield; both happened to me) rather than forcing a shield drop. Pretty neat to learn that EGWF just straight up beats shields one way or another.
 
Last edited:

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
705
Early impressions of the :ultluigi:/:ultkazuya: matchup is that it might actually be really good for Luigi. Kazuya is a slow (super?) heavyweight with very poor combo breakers, and generally has a poor disadvantage state. He's combo food for Luigi, just falling short of characters like Bowser/DK, but still coming awfully close. Kazuya's jumpsquat being so slow makes me think he's probably going to be super susceptible to being grabbed. Having at least one quick option (jumping) to quickly move to avoid being grabbed is a super important trait that every character (even bad ones) have vs Luigi... except Kazuya. Crouch dash seems good vs fireballs, but potentially seems poor vs zair. Luigi's frame data is also significantly better than Kazuya's, and I can't help but feel that despite all the invincibility/intangibility applied to all of his moves, he's going to struggle a lot up-close in the matchup since his range/frame data are both pretty poor. I also think his recovery being linear will hurt him (Kazuya's recovery also seems really easy to 2-frame? Not 100% sure if it is or not though) as will his inability to really camp Luigi with a projectile or by platform camping.

These are kind of just some surface level observations I've had from fighting Kazuya/watching people play Kazuya for a bit.

Overall I'm not sure how good the character is, but it feels like there's a lot of things he struggles with (spammable projectiles, safe disjoints, characters with strong frame data up-close, characters with strong platform camping games) but in return he hits hard and has one of the best punish games in Ultimate. I'm not convinced the punish game is going to make up for all of his weaknesses, but Kazuya's only been out for a few days, so I could totally be wrong here.
 
Last edited:

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
6,492
Location
Madison, WI
NNID
Thinkaman
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
Still no idea what that trip stuff was about, but I've settled on the "baseline" combo for when I get this character on Random:

d-throw -> WGF -> uf-tilt
side-b -> db-tilt -> WGF -> uf-tilt

These sequences start out of a braindead moment (grab, side-b) that give non-mains like me a second to load the execution into memory. They are broadly consistent and give tons of damage.

I guess what I am saying is imo, if you just want to practice one thing for your casual Kazuya, make it this. (And if you want to learn more, go from there.)

------

Kazuya's got the weight to survive, but he hates people capable of edgeguarding him. Ness, Min Min, for sure. Snake, Steve, Plant? Brawler, Gunner? Pyra? DDD? Hard Knuckle is okay.

Actually I bet Kirby Stone works like a charm. Bombs of all types probably do okay, but you'll have to work to get a good reward.

-----

In our ping-pong reflect discussion, we forgot the Miis!

Gunner Missile + Reflect is REALLY good for this--reflected missile of either type is easy for Kazuya to reflect, but can be re-reflected at a wide array of distances and will always hit Kazuya. The reward for this can be quite massive! Charge Shot is whatever, missiles is where the money is at.

Swordsman can do this with tornadoes and stars, but only at larger ranges and for less reward. (Still a gauranteed return hit on Kazuya at any range.)

Otherwise, Gunner seems way better against Kazuya than I thought. He has a lot of call-outs for things Kazuya might not expect, thanks to his range. Uair puts a stop to "lol I'll just recover high", and reflect stops lasers on top of ensuring your projectiles can't be reflected. (Except at absurd risk.)
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
6,492
Location
Madison, WI
NNID
Thinkaman
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
Watching decent :ultganondorf: is changing my tune quite a bit. Ideally spaced aerials are enough to get around Kazuya anti-air in most cases (he has to have a perfect WGF/Dragon callout), and his aerials are very abusive to Kazuya's recovery. Killing Kazuya before 100% is just too big of a deal to overlook.
 

Djmarcus44

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 25, 2015
Messages
470
Thinkaman Thinkaman Gunner can also hold up against Kazuya in CQC. Gunner has faster buttons, and up throw up air kills him at 90. Kazuya's reflector isn't very difficult to beat since Gunner can mix in fh bombs and homing missiles that won't hit Gunner when reflected. Fair is also difficult to reflect on reaction. I haven't gotten the opportunity to play against someone who is good at his crouch dash approaches, but I think Gunner's bombs could be used to hit his lower body.
 

Nobie

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Messages
2,219
NNID
SDShamshel
3DS FC
2809-8958-8223
Watching decent :ultganondorf: is changing my tune quite a bit. Ideally spaced aerials are enough to get around Kazuya anti-air in most cases (he has to have a perfect WGF/Dragon callout), and his aerials are very abusive to Kazuya's recovery. Killing Kazuya before 100% is just too big of a deal to overlook.
It feels like Ganon jab might be an important move in the matchup, just because it's "fast enough" relative to Kazuya's moveset and has all this range and power for a jab. Funnily, the lack of a rapid jab might work out in his favor.
 

Swamp Sensei

Today is always the most enjoyable day!
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 4, 2013
Messages
36,292
Location
Um....Lost?
NNID
Swampasaur
3DS FC
4141-2776-0914
Switch FC
SW-6476-1588-8392
If you are a Link or Belmont, you don't care; you have time to block/avoid a reflected boomerange, it doesn't do much damage to you anyway, and it's just one of several tools.
Not only that, but the Links and Belmonts can overwhelm Kazuya with projectiles.

Sure, Kazuya may be able to reflect the cross you sent out, but now there's an ax and holy water headed his way. His reflector is so unorthodox that its very hard for him to reflect lots of different projectiles in a quick succession.

Conversely, K.Rool's crown is a huge commitment. Sure he can send a canon ball at Kazuya too, but both projectiles are so slow and have so much end lag that Kazuya will be able to deal with it no problem.

Kazuya may have a problem with zoners, but it'll be the ones that can fill the screen with projectiles. Think of the Links, Belmonts, Banjo, or Mega Man.

One really good projectile like Shadow Ball isn't enough on its own.
 

meleebrawler

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
8,120
Location
Canada, Quebec
NNID
meleebrawler
3DS FC
2535-3888-1548
I'm hearing a lot of Kazuya gimping strats going around, and while they can work in a vacuum, the fact that Kazuya can actually recover high effectively, never becomes helpless no matter what he uses and still regains the use of his recovery moves if he does get hit means he can mix it up way more than you'd expect, and there aren't a lot of characters that can cover everything. On the off chance someone can chase him up high, Demon Scissors can send him right back down again while likely still having his double jump or airdodge to get him back. It's really a lot safer to use offstage than it looks. And he totally can kill you in retaliation if you guess wrong with things like up b and his back air.

If there is a "superheavy" that can honestly give Kazuya a hard time, it would have to be :ultridley:. Played right, he'll almost never allow Kazuya to land again, and Plasma Breath is not easy for him to work around assuming Ridley doesn't get greedy when charging and lets Kazuya laser blast him in the mouth.
 
Last edited:

Nobie

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Messages
2,219
NNID
SDShamshel
3DS FC
2809-8958-8223
Not only that, but the Links and Belmonts can overwhelm Kazuya with projectiles.

Sure, Kazuya may be able to reflect the cross you sent out, but now there's an ax and holy water headed his way. His reflector is so unorthodox that its very hard for him to reflect lots of different projectiles in a quick succession.

Conversely, K.Rool's crown is a huge commitment. Sure he can send a canon ball at Kazuya too, but both projectiles are so slow and have so much end lag that Kazuya will be able to deal with it no problem.

Kazuya may have a problem with zoners, but it'll be the ones that can fill the screen with projectiles. Think of the Links, Belmonts, Banjo, or Mega Man.

One really good projectile like Shadow Ball isn't enough on its own.
Mewtwo's ability to act very quickly out of Shadow Ball makes it different enough from single projectile users to not be easily written off. Also, while it's an unconventional projectile, Mewtwo also technically has Disable, which works wonders on all the autofacing characters.
 

Gleam

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
635
Location
Burlington, NC
It really does seem (just from initial perspective) that outside of his "gimmicks" Kazuya doesn't seem to have much answer to a lot of the characters in the game and it seems that, many of his weaknesses are easily exploited by a vast load of characters. The more I see of this character, the more I think of how easily exploited and countered he is going to be.

I don't want to be arrogant, heck knows what kind of techs or even patches might come that will change things up. But goodness, the more I see of this character, the more I think he's going to be darn lucky to even reach High Tier. I legitimately think this is going to be a basic Mid Tier at best, easily exploited by a good number of characters and only really held up by his gimmicks.

And gimmicks a Top Tier does not make.

Look at our discussion of this character right now? It's been basically "How to beat Kazuya" "Look at all the things that can be exploited about Kazuya" "Look at how easily he's beaten by several projectiles" etc. etc. etc.

I think we're kind of afraid to admit it, but judging from most of the conversation, I think many of us don't have that high of hope for this character in the long run.
 

TTTTTsd

Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
Premium
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
3,999
Location
Canada, where it's really cold
NNID
InverseTangent
It really does seem (just from initial perspective) that outside of his "gimmicks" Kazuya doesn't seem to have much answer to a lot of the characters in the game and it seems that, many of his weaknesses are easily exploited by a vast load of characters. The more I see of this character, the more I think of how easily exploited and countered he is going to be.

I don't want to be arrogant, heck knows what kind of techs or even patches might come that will change things up. But goodness, the more I see of this character, the more I think he's going to be darn lucky to even reach High Tier. I legitimately think this is going to be a basic Mid Tier at best, easily exploited by a good number of characters and only really held up by his gimmicks.

And gimmicks a Top Tier does not make.

Look at our discussion of this character right now? It's been basically "How to beat Kazuya" "Look at all the things that can be exploited about Kazuya" "Look at how easily he's beaten by several projectiles" etc. etc. etc.

I think we're kind of afraid to admit it, but judging from most of the conversation, I think many of us don't have that high of hope for this character in the long run.
I think it's been aggregately agreed upon that this character is pretty difficult to use and has the largest standard moveset in the game, alongside what is likely the most technical grounded movement and a really, really high skill ceiling that demands a lot of execution.

He has been out for under a week.

On top of that, this game's online erodes the kind of precision and input accuracy this character has.

What I'm saying is that what everyone is posting is very, VERY early observations that are probably all going to be demonstrably incorrect/correct in a good amount of time (and that's fine!). If this game had better netcode and/or a training mode that let us simulate a large number of scenarios, early impressions would be a lot more impactful. But as it is, I could list off a number of things that have changed since release. Cloud in Smash 4, Bayo in Smash 4, the impression of Joker over time. It's pretty normal!

While I'm here though, this character has Smash 4 tier Dash > Shield via Crouch Dash and can also walk out of Crouch Dash turning it into a very non-committal strong movement option. https://twitter.com/TTTTTsd_/status/1410633265191428097
 
Last edited:

Frihetsanka

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
1,926
Location
Sweden
But as it is, I could list off a number of things that have changed since release. Cloud in Smash 4, Bayo in Smash 4, the impression of Joker over time. It's pretty normal!
Sometimes characters were overrated on release too, like Smash 4 Roy, Smash 4 Ryu (some thought he was #1), many release characters in Ultimate (like Meta Knight, King K. Rool, Ganondorf, Link, Zelda, pre-buff Corrin, Yoshi, Mewtwo, Young Link, Belmonts). If we look at DLC, then it seems likely that Steve (could be argued, many thought he was top tier though), Pyra/Mythra (could be argued, many thought she was contender for #1 though), Hero (though if you ask current Hero mains many still think he's top tier), potentially Terry. So could go either way.

My guess is he's not going to be a bottom 10 character at least. I don't think he's top tier, but it's very early to say. He'll probably be a rare character that a few specialists main and do well with, perhaps in a similar situation to Terry and Ryu/Ken. From what I've seen it's mostly former Terry/Ryu/Ken players that showing interest in maining him? I wonder how many will switch to him though in the long run. We'll see.
 
Last edited:

Sucumbio

Smash Enforcer
Moderator
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Messages
5,893
Location
CP - GOSHAY MS
So far the hardest matches I've had in this short time are against Palutena and Lucina for the same reason but in different axis. Palu is very good at keeping him airborne and ko with up air and Lucina has very strong pressure on the ground with pokes and db. Both matches were very close and required a lot of luck to pull out a win.
 

meleebrawler

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
8,120
Location
Canada, Quebec
NNID
meleebrawler
3DS FC
2535-3888-1548
I've just noticed a weird quirk in Rage; normally grabbing instantly triggers the Rage Drive, but it seems that if you input a throw the instant the grab lands, you can do a regular throw and not use up Rage.

I also wonder if it is possible to mash out of Heaven's Gate or any of it's Rage Drive in kamikaze situations, though if it's like Flying Slam at all I suppose it isn't.
 
Last edited:

Iron Maw

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Messages
135
NNID
ironmaw
3DS FC
1091-8076-0883
I think it's been aggregately agreed upon that this character is pretty difficult to use and has the largest standard moveset in the game, alongside what is likely the most technical grounded movement and a really, really high skill ceiling that demands a lot of execution.

He has been out for under a week.

On top of that, this game's online erodes the kind of precision and input accuracy this character has.

What I'm saying is that what everyone is posting is very, VERY early observations that are probably all going to be demonstrably incorrect/correct in a good amount of time (and that's fine!). If this game had better netcode and/or a training mode that let us simulate a large number of scenarios, early impressions would be a lot more impactful. But as it is, I could list off a number of things that have changed since release. Cloud in Smash 4, Bayo in Smash 4, the impression of Joker over time. It's pretty normal!

While I'm here though, this character has Smash 4 tier Dash > Shield via Crouch Dash and can also walk out of Crouch Dash turning it into a very non-committal strong movement option. https://twitter.com/TTTTTsd_/status/1410633265191428097
You toss can Joker in there too. Like this thread goes through this everytime a character who doesn't have standard attributes to what some consider top-tier comes out. The fact that most people can only still make surface observation that lead into " this so & so character probably beat this 4 day old character" as if he's polished right now is just more proof that we hardly anyone know anything about him we severely underrating his tools. Like EWGF and its myriad of follow ups alone puts Kazuya several tiers up by default its universally good against any character. Like his reward off a single combo starter is absurd and is like only character in the game right now that can take you from 0%>80% or 100% or higher in practical conversion. Like lets not pretend whoever is fighting him never get hit because their character out ranges his intangible moves or your bad at using him.

Eitherway for myself, until we start seeing some serious Kazuya play where the players know what their doing and aren't dropping combos like now (which won't be for months at best) there little point incoming to any kind of real conclusion.
 
Last edited:

TTTTTsd

Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
Premium
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
3,999
Location
Canada, where it's really cold
NNID
InverseTangent
I've just noticed a weird quirk in Rage; normally grabbing instantly triggers the Rage Drive, but it seems that if you input a throw the instant the grab lands, you can do a regular throw and not use up Rage.
You can also use Gates of Hell I believe without expending your Rage Drive, and this is pretty nice considering it boosts the damage of the throw even further. Gates of Hell is a pretty interesting move too! It's not quite as big as Kazuya's enormous dash grab, but the startup is pretty fast (I believe it's Frame 7 like his standing grab?)

On the topic of Rage, I don't think it's as big of a deal to Kazuya as Terry's GO is to him. Kazuya's kill power and general damage output are already fantastic. I think its more of a passive bonus that gives him even more tools to work with if he gets to 100% without dying, but I don't think it's something he really needs to make a comeback. It's a lot like Tekken Rage in that regard.

Oh and yes, EWGF is flatly one of the best moves in the game period. I don't think its debatable, it just is. Invincible startup, -1 on block at WORST (vs. Bowser?) HUUUUGE pushback on block, ridiculous reward on hit, you can DI it but he can absolutely follow the DI. Pretty worthy of its Tekken legacy I'd say
 
Last edited:

Iron Maw

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Messages
135
NNID
ironmaw
3DS FC
1091-8076-0883
Loving Riddles' movement here, and people are gonna learn to fear Rage Drive.

But honestly this just what an unoptimized, day 4 Kazuya can do and its already impressive.
 
Last edited:

blackghost

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
2,092
It really does seem (just from initial perspective) that outside of his "gimmicks" Kazuya doesn't seem to have much answer to a lot of the characters in the game and it seems that, many of his weaknesses are easily exploited by a vast load of characters.
what are you saying? outside of the things that make kazuya, he has no tools? IDk what this means.

mutiple kazuya players and testers have already shown how to handle projectiles with mistep or medicore projectil in terms of speed with his reflector.

right now saying things like Kazuya CANT deal with or is unable to overcome is pretty commital and everything is basically speculation unless you are just posting tech or tools the character has.

also i watched mk leo fight vendetta

and riddles

truly think he has a tool for everything question is execution.
 

Nobie

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Messages
2,219
NNID
SDShamshel
3DS FC
2809-8958-8223
This may have gotten lost in all the Kazuya hype, but Rizeasu recently won a 256-player online tournament with Marth.


Inkling also suffers from Marthritis, and Rize has always done well with Marth, but this feels pretty notable.
 

Arthur97

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,170
It really does seem (just from initial perspective) that outside of his "gimmicks" Kazuya doesn't seem to have much answer to a lot of the characters in the game and it seems that, many of his weaknesses are easily exploited by a vast load of characters. The more I see of this character, the more I think of how easily exploited and countered he is going to be.

I don't want to be arrogant, heck knows what kind of techs or even patches might come that will change things up. But goodness, the more I see of this character, the more I think he's going to be darn lucky to even reach High Tier. I legitimately think this is going to be a basic Mid Tier at best, easily exploited by a good number of characters and only really held up by his gimmicks.

And gimmicks a Top Tier does not make.

Look at our discussion of this character right now? It's been basically "How to beat Kazuya" "Look at all the things that can be exploited about Kazuya" "Look at how easily he's beaten by several projectiles" etc. etc. etc.

I think we're kind of afraid to admit it, but judging from most of the conversation, I think many of us don't have that high of hope for this character in the long run.
To be fair, early on a lot of talk seemed to go into how to beat Pyra and Mythra too. It's an almost natural cycle. Look at all the strengths, and then look at how to counterplay it. Then probably back to countering the counterplay. It does have the unfortunate effect though of potentially making whatever is being discussed at length seem overwhelming if just by virtue of being most of what you see at a given time.
 

Firox

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
3,277
I think it really speaks to how high Kazuya's skill ceiling is that he's already fading from mainstream use online. Usually when a new character comes out, I see droves of people using them, inundating tournaments and arenas for at least a week after release. After 3 days, I've already seen Kazuya's usage drop significantly. We're already whittling down to the labbers and mainers. That's not to say he isn't good or anything, just that his style of play doesn't seem to be popular by any stretch of the imagination.
 

Arthur97

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,170
Well, yeah, Kazuya is made to be like he's out of Tekken. Problem is, this is Smash Brothers and the two don't necessarily mesh well. Why come to Smash just to play Tekken? Then there's the fact Smash is generally meant to be more accessible while Kazuya...not so much.
 

Firox

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
3,277
Well, yeah, Kazuya is made to be like he's out of Tekken. Problem is, this is Smash Brothers and the two don't necessarily mesh well. Why come to Smash just to play Tekken? Then there's the fact Smash is generally meant to be more accessible while Kazuya...not so much.
Exactly. Ironically, my single favorite thing about Smash is that it DOESN'T play like most traditional fighting games. It feels more like an action platformer, but that freedom of movement is one of its best qualities. A refreshing alternative to the standard "rock-em sock-em robots" style of side-scroller fighters. Still, I can see why Street Fighter and Tekken have earned their place in the Smash pantheon.
 

Sucumbio

Smash Enforcer
Moderator
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Messages
5,893
Location
CP - GOSHAY MS
Marth looking good! Like I said Lucina is just as brutal. There's an answer but for the early meta Lucina or marth will need extra practice I don't know any palu mains so that'll just be another bait and punish match.
 

Arthur97

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,170
Exactly. Ironically, my single favorite thing about Smash is that it DOESN'T play like most traditional fighting games. It feels more like an action platformer, but that freedom of movement is one of its best qualities. A refreshing alternative to the standard "rock-em sock-em robots" style of side-scroller fighters. Still, I can see why Street Fighter and Tekken have earned their place in the Smash pantheon.
Perhaps, but there may also be such a thing as being too faithful to the source material. They seemingly set out to make especially Kazuya not play like Smash, and they apparently succeeded. Whether you think that's a good thing or not may vary. I don't. It's also yet to be seen just how this...graft fairs in an entirely different game. Oddly enough, Terry is probably the one that plays the most like a Smash fighter as well as a showcase in why back specials may not be the best idea.
 

Firox

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Messages
3,277
Perhaps, but there may also be such a thing as being too faithful to the source material. They seemingly set out to make especially Kazuya not play like Smash, and they apparently succeeded. Whether you think that's a good thing or not may vary. I don't. It's also yet to be seen just how this...graft fairs in an entirely different game. Oddly enough, Terry is probably the one that plays the most like a Smash fighter as well as a showcase in why back specials may not be the best idea.
Totally agree. It's awesome to see what some people can do with the "arcade fighter" characters, but as far as I'm concerned, I'm totally incompatible. They're basically wasted space on my character roster. Good thing FP2 was given to me as a gift. Otherwise, I would have been a little peeved to have wasted money on another character I can't use (I'm just really not geared for sequential precision inputs, not in any competitive capacity anyway).
 

Sucumbio

Smash Enforcer
Moderator
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Messages
5,893
Location
CP - GOSHAY MS
For reference in case anyone needs to reference frames

I sat down in training mode and found the "hits on" frames for all of Kazuya's various moves. I did not do this for follow-up moves like later parts of jabs or his various tilts, only moves that can be done out of neutral or command dash. I did not do cooldowns or i-frames or anything like that; I'm sure team data extraction will have that exact data in the next few days; this is just to get you started understanding the basics of what this guy is allowed to do. I did this all by hand so mistakes are possible, but I think I was pretty careful and double tested when I wasn't sure.



Jab: 6

Ftilt: 12

Dftilt: 10

Dtilt: 16

Dbtilt: 13

Btilt: 11

Ubtilt: 14

Utilt: 9

Uftilt: 14



Crouch jab: 7

Crouch dftilt: 14

Crouch dbtilt: 11



Dash attack: 15



Fsmash: 25 (20 charge release)

Usmash: 12 (7 charge release)

Dsmash: 17 (15 charge release)



Nair: 8

Fair: 8

Bair: 11

Uair: 4

Dair: 17



Standing Grab: 7

Running Grab: 9

Pivot Grab: 9 (I always have a really hard time testing this one)



Neutral Special: 27

Side Special: 16

Up Special: 12

Down Special: 14 (rage mode irrelevant)



Note: all input move frame datas do NOT factor in minimum input time, only the time Kazuya is actually committed



Command dash (dragon punch, no input): 20f commitment

Electric Wind God Fist (dragon punch, A simultaneous): 8

Wind God Fist (dragon punch, A delayed): 8

Dragon Uppercut (dragon punch, A held): 20

Rage Mode Command Grab (dragon punch, A held, in rage mode): 15

Spinning Demon to Left Hook (dragon punch, B): 10



To input EWGF, input f, d, df + A at the same time. If you input A one frame early (simultaneous with d), it still works. If you input A two frames early, you get fsmash. If you input A even a single frame later, you get normal wind god fist (meaning the actual minimum commitment of a normal WGF is 9 frames since you have to spend at least one frame command dashing). However, if you continue holding df, you can input A the frame after the full dragon punch input is made and still get EWGF. Waiting two or more frames still results in normal WGF so if you input correctly the full window to get EWGF is a three frame window to input A. Holding the A input when it is made for 6 or more frames results in Dragon Uppercut (or the big rage mode command grab if you are in rage mode). Note if you input Z simultaneous with the start-up of a command dash, you actually get a standing grab and the command dash doesn't come out.



Special command grab (df, d, df + Z): 7

Demon God Fist (A while rising from crouch): 13

Left Split Kicks (f, f+A): 13

Side taunt: 18



To input Demon God Fist, hold crouch and after releasing crouch input (stick in neutral) input A within 19 frames. You don't even have to see the crouch begin to be released (you can input A the frame after letting go of down), and 19f is long after Kazuya has visually stopped crouching. You can input forward (and probably other things) to cancel your ability to do a Demon God Fist; this is very useful if you want to, say, jab after crouching.
 

meleebrawler

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
8,120
Location
Canada, Quebec
NNID
meleebrawler
3DS FC
2535-3888-1548
Totally agree. It's awesome to see what some people can do with the "arcade fighter" characters, but as far as I'm concerned, I'm totally incompatible. They're basically wasted space on my character roster. Good thing FP2 was given to me as a gift. Otherwise, I would have been a little peeved to have wasted money on another character I can't use (I'm just really not geared for sequential precision inputs, not in any competitive capacity anyway).
Actually I find doing things like continuous wavedashes rather intuitive thanks to a change from Tekken proper. Normally you have to bring the stick back to neutral between each one, but in Smash you can do what amounts to continuous quarter-circle forward motions after the initial forward one. And since the rest of his moves are mostly single-inputs, comboing with Kazuya feels less about joystick dexterity and more just memorizing your tools.
 

Sucumbio

Smash Enforcer
Moderator
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Messages
5,893
Location
CP - GOSHAY MS
So Frame 4 uair. It's odd to use but it's pretty fast. 1 OOS option that is faster is up special from Mario/Dr Mario, GW and Mii brawler with 3 frames.... Is there any other options I'm missing?
 

meleebrawler

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
8,120
Location
Canada, Quebec
NNID
meleebrawler
3DS FC
2535-3888-1548
You can also use Gates of Hell I believe without expending your Rage Drive, and this is pretty nice considering it boosts the damage of the throw even further. Gates of Hell is a pretty interesting move too! It's not quite as big as Kazuya's enormous dash grab, but the startup is pretty fast (I believe it's Frame 7 like his standing grab?)

On the topic of Rage, I don't think it's as big of a deal to Kazuya as Terry's GO is to him. Kazuya's kill power and general damage output are already fantastic. I think its more of a passive bonus that gives him even more tools to work with if he gets to 100% without dying, but I don't think it's something he really needs to make a comeback. It's a lot like Tekken Rage in that regard.

Oh and yes, EWGF is flatly one of the best moves in the game period. I don't think its debatable, it just is. Invincible startup, -1 on block at WORST (vs. Bowser?) HUUUUGE pushback on block, ridiculous reward on hit, you can DI it but he can absolutely follow the DI. Pretty worthy of its Tekken legacy I'd say
It also looks like landing the Heaven's Gate move in the air also does not trigger the Rage Drive. I have to wonder if these bypasses are intentional. Down B in general is kind of funky in that it can hit but not grab prone opponents and is an attack on the very last frames.
 
Last edited:

The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,859
So Frame 4 uair. It's odd to use but it's pretty fast. 1 OOS option that is faster is up special from Mario/Dr Mario, GW and Mii brawler with 3 frames.... Is there any other options I'm missing?
It is actually a frame 11 option. Don't forget that this character has a frame 7 jumpsquat, so it is the 7 frames + 4 frame startup of up air.
Up smash OoS and up special OoS are both frame 12.
Up smash could be a niche option because of arm intangibility and 6% armor, but that is risky to use.
Up B straight up has no intangibility or armor, which is strange as this would be the type of move you would expect to have either.

And no, he cannot cancel his jumpsquat frames with his tilts, which would've helped out in that regard (although his OoS would still be questionable at best).

As a whole Kazuya has very lacking OoS options, potentially the worst in the game.
 

TTTTTsd

Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
Premium
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
3,999
Location
Canada, where it's really cold
NNID
InverseTangent
Kazuya UAir F11 seems really bad at first! And then we look at some fun logistics relative to the move. I don't think it's incredible OoS HOWEVER it is one of the best Air to Airs of ANY of the Fighter characters, honestly ridiculous. Comparing it to Marth Fair, which comes out in 6 frames off a 3f jumpsquat, the forward facing hit (not the diagonally upward part) hits on F10. This is what Kazuya's looks like on Frame 11
1625258077699.png
Actually pretty ridiculous.

Also he can do his Upback or Upforward Tilts OoS if you use tap jump (doing it with regular jump interferes with the SH Macro and prioritizes a rising aerial). What does Upback Tilt look like hitbox wise? Nonsense.
1625258234939.png
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom