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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    569

Fane

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
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355
Duck Hunt got a lot of his KO power issues addressed in Ultimate (namely his multi-hit moves like up air and their smash attacks linking much better in comparison to SSB4). Their throws are decent for stage control and early percent combos (like in SSB4), and their already good special moves got buffed: Wild Gunman has overall better damage and knockback; Duck Jump can now be canceled into any move; Clay Shooting now expel damaging debris when destroyed; most importantly, you can now hit Trick Shot in the air, with it's knockback being increased. I almost forgot to mention that their forward air is now a disjoint (not sure if it applies to all of their aerials, but good buff nevertheless).

Duck Hunt seems like a big sleeper pick in this game imo.
The problem with his kill choices is exactly what they are though. Smash attacks and Wild Gunman.

His smashes are okay but they aren't something you'll be using as much as possible with DH, mostly because he likes to play the range game and control space on the stage, his smash attacks just don't really help with that a whole lot. They have basic range and their kill potential isn't even scary.

Wild Gunman has phenomenal knockback now, definitely, but the issue is... it's Wild Gunman. Super easy to avoid and punish.

If one of DH's aerials or tilts even had good kill power, I'd say he'd be mid tier, but he just racks up damage and has trouble finishing his opponent off.

I'll try to get some more matches in with him and figure out more stuff, but right now I'm neither impressed or disappointed with the duo.
 

Fastblade5035

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Chrom is great. He doesn't really have a single wasted move except like, Counter. It's actually kind of insane.

His jab is super safe, fast, leads to follow ups at a lot of percents. Great to dash cancel with because you can get a fair out of it before high percents to rack up more strings and stage control. Ftilt is fast and can kill, has a great hitbox that can catch people trying to go over it. Dtilt is a good poke tool from dash cancel and up tilt leads to great strings of up tilt -> up tilt -> up air. Speaking of, his up air is just incredible. That thing juggles so well, is stupidly fast and safe, to the point where many of my biggest advantage points in games come from having my opponent in the air over platforms so I can wail on them with uairs.

Fsmash is honestly one of his most stupid moves. It hits above on battlefield platforms, for some reason. It has really incredible range. Can't tell you how many times I've dashed back pivot Smash charged Fsmash near ledge and caught people's ledge getups from distances even I didn't think would work. It kills stupidly early too. This thing right here ruins characters like Puff and Pichu.

Flare Blade or whatever Chrom's is called is also super good. I've charged from a distance near ledge and it catches ledge getups just as well as Fsmash, but you can also whiff it intentionally and whip out an ftilt or jab almost instantly to catch people trying to punish your whiff. It also can be reversed so if im charging near ledge, and someone tries to jump over or something I can catch them behind me too. It kills with even the slightest charge very reliably so I almost always use it on ledge.

Up B everyone already knows, this thing is busted. Which is good, because it's also his biggest weakness. His recovery horizontally may be weak, but Up B is a potent move in just about every regard. In a disadvantage state? Try up b, either on or off stage. What's the worst that could happen? Off stage, youll probably die anyway, so if you land it you just got a free stock trade. On stage, I use it very often. Landing it in neutral nets you a ton of damage and stage control. It can be used on Battlefield to get out of bad situations from say Isabelle or Simon and wait on the top platform. It's very solid even without the spike shenanigans.

Also, I wanna say in regards to his recovery. I honestly haven't had that bad a time with it. Granted this is just my experience but if you air dodge immediately after launch and know when to up b to recover from high or low then it's not quite as bad. Still extremely exploitable, that's undeniable. Counters will always **** him up bad but airdodging at the right time and knowing the best time to use up b is key to recovering with Chrom.
 

Y2Kay

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bc1910 bc1910 did a pretty good job summarizing the changes, I'll add on.

I know me saying this surprises no one, but Ultimate Greninja is so deadly, holy ****.

He's just so ****ing solid. the engine changes and the buffs to forward tilt and dash attack makes his ground game insanely good. Up smash hitting under platforms is so strong.

The way his kit is right now, I can't comprehend how people think this character is mid tier or worse. Especially if the meta is gonna favor swordies instead of brawlers.

:150:
 
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Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
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Leffen put [King K. Rool in] top 7.
Leffen himself said that he feels like King K. Rool "will eventually get worse": https://youtu.be/Q9PBEHo8X9Q?t=1434.

A recent match on VGBC of TKBreezy's Wii Fit Trainer vs. Doris's K. Rool also had the commentators, Coney and Unknown, having similar thoughts on this where Coney says that if you don't know what K. Rool is doing or how he works, then you're probably going to lose: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nICdW-3liwQ.

I guess you could say this is similar to Smash 4 Bowser's early impressions of him being a very strong character before falling down as people figured out how to deal with him and/or as they understood their characters and the game better or perhaps Brawl Snake who was always good, but was considered stronger earlier on than later. It makes sense as the strengths he has will definitely help him, especially if people don't know about them like how his projectile can transition to a command throw, his belly armor, or his high profile Down Smash.

That said, these are early impressions and even worse, early tier lists and tier placings to which I'm at a point where I want to say all characters are overrated.

But there is one thing I agree with Leffen even though I find early tier lists silly and stupid and it is that tier lists shouldn't be the end all, be all, but something where people throw speculations and thoughts and in return, others react to it and where, hopefully, this back and forth would foster meaningful discussions. What makes this more credible if that's the right word for it is that Leffen himself emphasizes that it's an early, day one tier list and he hasn't even played every character in the game yet. That is to say, he's probably wrong about things and doesn't know everything about the game, but at the same time, he still has his impressions on the characters in the game given to the extent of what he knows, what he sees are their strengths and weaknesses, and so on. For example, why he feels K. Rool is going to be strong at least in the early days of Ultimate. Leffen introduces his tier list video with this.

It feels like a given, but sometimes I feel like we need a reminder to not takes things at face value or to laugh at them like how some people rag on ESAM for always saying Pikachu is a good character or overstating how good Pikachu is. There is merit in talking about all these wacky tier lists that pop up so frequently and usually with wildly different placings. For one, biases which you might think is bad, but sometimes they can indicate what the player feels are really important in the game even if it twists their thoughts like a character with a bad recovery is automatically bad to them unless they have insane things to counteract that, but even then they might still feel like that's not enough.

Finally, this does not mean people should be posting their own tier lists. Any of you who do will likely incur the wrath of the moderators here.
 
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J0eyboi

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2017
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569
Can't you just grab him on reaction?
Shulk is actionable 6 frames before his invuln ends. Cancelling it early removes the remaining invuln, so it's possible to get a mixup on him, but there's no guaranteed punish for it.
 

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
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Can't you just grab him on reaction?
Maybe not depending on if he and for how long he has invincibility? I guess it's similar to this which apparently is called triangle jumping or dodging.
There was a problem fetching the tweet
 

MapleBeasts

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Ok. Now that I've played some more, here are a few other things I've noticed. Wolf is very strong, much better than his appearance in brawl imo. Ftilt comes out very quickly and has a beneficial launch angle. It is a reliable kill option at higher percentages. Up smash has exactly the same advantages and hard punishes opponents who fail their approach. His lasers, and mobility lead to a strong neutral game as he can force approaches with lasers and punish with ease. Getting a fox like nair was a godsend for him as he has a reliable option to land with. Side b retains it's speed and power when sweet spotted and can lead to unexpected kills. He also is very hard to edge guard.

Ness seems very good as well. He still can reliably confirm kills and huge damge combos off of a pk fire and neutral air remains extremely quick and safe. Fair can still combo into itself and off of a downthrow. The nerfs to back throw are noticeable but I feel the trade off with the buffs to yo yo smashes are worth it. Down smash now in particular is a great edgeguarding tool that punishes recoveries from below the ledge. Now that the yoyo hangs below and will hit with it's stronger hitbox when you release the charge, characters that rely on vertical recoveries are gonna get bodied on by Ness off stage. He's also received buffs to his air speed which are nice. The only thing I think will be a big problem for him is the reimplementation of directional air dodges. His recovery should be much easier to punish for opponents as a result and he's now more open to gimps.
 
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Iridium

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:ultlink: is just good. Better mobility (especially the frame 3 jumpsquat) helps a lot, good kill power and range, and decent survivability are pluses. I guess recovery will probably be a notable struggle, but it can be worked around to an extent. Speedier characters might also be a bit annoying to deal with, but we have to see if Link can easily shut some down now.

Salem seems to already be doing well with him against other top players, and even ZeRo and Fatality have acknowledged and tried him out too. His results from what I've seen are in a good spot as of right now too, which is great.

:ulttoonlink: honestly isn't worse at all, but we might need to see more gameplay of him. He still is the fastest Link (even more than :ultyounglink:), so he stands out a bit. And his combo game is just as potent as it was before, with b-air strings being a thing.

:ultike: was hyped up, and isn't really letting anyone down. Insanely quick aerials help with his combo game, and his up air both kills and makes it harder to land with its increased range. Being combo food might still hurt him, but his advantage state is in a good spot.

:ultincineroar: is just the grappler. Very slow, yet very powerful and scary when he gets you. His combo game is very nice (although that can be said for a lot of characters), and his recovery can at least be mixed up a bit, with him not being left helpless after Cross Chop (which allows for usage of a jump or airdodge). He also already seems to have tournament success, with ZD winning a very decent national in the MD/VA region.

For him, he has a somewhat garbage disadvantage state, and a really good advantage state, especially when Revenge is factored in.

:ultroy: is living up to the hype, as he has already found good success with players like Ned. He's a good example at what happens when the game's engine actually goes in your favor. His aggressive playstyle is very much rewarded, and his combo game still remains present. However, he still comes off as combo food, and his recovery isn't very good still, but on the ground, he is a monster, and that's where he shines the most.

:ultchrom: is just better than everyone thought he would be. I think we're all aware of his sacrificial Soaring Slash strategy, most notably exemplified by Shoyo James, but his combo game is actually about as insane as Roy's, and his f-smash from what I've seen is just really good. Offstage gameplay however is even more risky than with Roy, as he has a very noticeable lack of horizontal recovery, so he cannot afford to drift too far off, so I'd say he's even more suited for the ground than Roy.

His tournament success can't be denied, though.

I'll post any other thoughts I have later.
 
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KurashiDragon

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:ultpokemontrainer: Squirtle and Ivysaur pretty much live up to my expectations. Ivysaur does the whole spacing thing really well with those vines. Highlighted moves goes to the Fair and Bair for aerials. They are just really really good. Also, Jab F-tilt and most of the smash moves *up smash is very eh though* Squirtle is........ Withdraw is an amazing move that can reverse the advantage so easily if used right. Apart from that overall really good. Just lacking in kill power really and that where........ oy vey. Charizard is just not good people. I'm sorry, he's not. He's got his good points Flare Blitz is good when used well, fair is good, Bair is decent, f-tilt is good Flamethrower is alright...... and that's it. everything is just so bad. If Charizard were better I'd honestly call Pokemon Trainer high tier. Maybe even top tier. As it stands now though. Mid Teir. Stupid False dragon ruining everything.

:ultpikachu: I'm only gonna say this once. Pikachu is not number 1. Ok he's just not. He's good though. Really good. I like most of his moves. Most of his Aerials are solid. his tilts are solid. His smashes are........ mostly great, his specials are mostly solid. What's the problem I have with him then? 2 things. 1. His Nair is bad. Ok it's just bad. It's not absolute trash. I enjoy leading off with it at low percent combos but otherwise, the range is pitifully low and if I wanted to drag characters down to the bottom blast zone, I'd use Bair every time which has been buffed from smash 4 to make it overall very solid. 2. his kill power or lack there of. Yes, I know. Pikachu can easily edge guard most opponents to death. That's good. FSmash is good too. Apart from that though. Pikachu's kill comfirm (up throw thunder) is much more strict with it's timing, Up Smash has been nerfed and overall.... Pikachu just has a really tough time getting kills. This is literally the exact same problem people had with post nerf smash 4 Sheik. Overall solid character but couldn't kill for the life of her. Mark my words, he will not be number 1. He'll probably be somewhere in top 10 though. He's really good after all.
 
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zeldasmash

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Chrom is just fantastic and one of the scariest characters in the game ever to get hit by due to Soaring Slash. That move single handedly makes Chrom one of those characters where it's one hit and your dead. He can confirm that thing from Up Air (which is bonkers, solid range, lasts a while and combos into Soaring Slash) and it's been shown that it can combo into it at 0%! If Chrom has a significant life lead, I wish you the best of luck because he has one of the best neutrals in the game, one of the best pressure games with how safe he is and of course, one hit from Chrom, even if it's a stray hit, and your dead.
 

ligersandtigons

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haven't really had the chance to delve into the competitive side of Ultimate yet, so I'm pretty out of the loop as of now lol smh

but anyways, quick question, but what's the general consensus on Cloud so far in terms of competitive viability? Didn't main him in smash 4 but I think I'm gonna main him in Ultimate but the cloud boards kinda dead lol
 

J0eyboi

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haven't really had the chance to delve into the competitive side of Ultimate yet, so I'm pretty out of the loop as of now lol smh

but anyways, quick question, but what's the general consensus on Cloud so far in terms of competitive viability? Didn't main him in smash 4 but I think I'm gonna main him in Ultimate but the cloud boards kinda dead lol
He was really good in Smash 4, so he got a lot of nerfs in the transition. At the same time, a bunch of other characters, including a number of swordfighters who he previously overshadowed, got buffs. End result: no one's really playing him right now. Is he good? Who knows. He might be, but he's got so little rep right now that it's hard to tell how good he is.

For what it's worth, I don't think there are many bad characters in this game. Kirby is the only real standout to me, with some maybes like Jr, Zelda, and G&W. Cloud will probably be decent at worst.
 
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DblCrest

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I've only been hearing bad things about Kirby and I don't know where the Kirby mains have gone.

Dedede got a better deal with Swallow since he can spit back a LOT of things you throw at him. While Kirby just heals unless its a charge shot (then he spits it back)
 

bc1910

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haven't really had the chance to delve into the competitive side of Ultimate yet, so I'm pretty out of the loop as of now lol smh

but anyways, quick question, but what's the general consensus on Cloud so far in terms of competitive viability? Didn't main him in smash 4 but I think I'm gonna main him in Ultimate but the cloud boards kinda dead lol
The devs seem to have taken a “death by a thousand cuts” approach to balancing Cloud. He’s had a lot of minor range and power nerfs which are easy to brush off as not being a big deal individually, but they add up to a significant nerf.

Of course, “death” is an overstatement because Cloud is still fast and strong with a big sword. The timer on limit lets you can run away from him for 15 seconds but he’s mobile enough to catch most characters and with the general nerf to dodges and shields it’s not that exploitable. It’s not as bad as trying to hit, say, Sm4sh Rosa running away until Luma comes back.

As a swordie with good frame data and some powerful options Cloud should still find himself well clear of the bottom tiers.
 
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Diddy Kong

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:ultdiddy:

Holy ****, this character plays like a demi-God. Am not overestimating him, but whoaaaa... Run speed increased, ground options increased, Side B buffed, Banana buffed, Neutral Air buffed, aerials still damn crazy good, F Smash kills earlier it seems? This is just recipe for a Top Tier character. He's incredibly strong and fast, and even his recovery seems a little buffed. Diddy Kong is definitely a Top Tier character, and I have a blast playing as him, powering through so many helpless fighters who have no clue what to do. Z dropping items is a thing now to, so Diddy can even create kill confirms out of that. 10/10. He has great matchups all over the roster, and I dare say, he's the best character, hands down.

:ultdk:

DK is also a real potent character, and kills really early again. Giant Punch is mad powerful as ever, and DK actually likes having approach options and all that now. Cargo F Throw even kills. He has the range of a sword character, insane priority and even speed, and he can rack up damange the quickest out of all other characters I feel. Definitely better than in Smash 4, even if Ding Dong isn't a thing any more (which is good).

:ultike:

He plays like a different character almost. Spacing has never been so easy. U Air is amazing, so is his.. everything. Feels great playing as him now.
 
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teddystalin

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Some observations after my region's inaugural tournament:

:ultzss:: I miss the old zair most of all, I think. Otherwise, she seems very similar to the "Marss-style" ZSS from the end of Smash 4, relying on tricky movement instead of bullying with a big disjoint like she could in 2015. Her kit still has some weird kinks (Paralyzer and dsmash both seem useless uncharged), but there aren't any weird, unnecessary moves like S4 Plasma Whip or dtilt. Considering that the meta (so much as one exists four days in) seems to be "everyone is a Cloud-esque swordie or Pikachu/Inkling," I'm surprised to find myself pretty bullish towards ZSS's viability. A blisteringly fast character with great recovery and an accessible, powerful punish game finds ways to stay relevant; who knew.

:ultmetaknight:: All I could think playing :4metaknight: was "I wish he could dash dance, or maybe had a good fair." Now he can do both of those things, but there's a bit of a Monkey's Paw feeling. While we've all seen his devastating punishes on Twitter, they're at highly specific percents and locked behind committal or finicky moves like landing Fair 1/2 or utilt instead of his more reliable DA/dash grab/dtilt (which are restricted to only early game combos at this point.) MK is obviously good, but I'm getting shades of :4pikachu:from him: reliable combos before 50 or so, then forced into stray hits before either edgeguarding or using relatively safe smash attacks. Like :4pikachu:, that's good now, but will it hold up past year 1?

:ultcorrin:: All of the other FE boys are shinier and more interesting for now, as Corrin is largely unchanged, but unchanged is good for what ended up being a very good character in S4. The addition of dtilt out of run is also just amazing for them, and I think we'll see more of them once the Roy/Chrom/Marcina excitement dies down. Same with :ultike:.

:ultgreninja:: We have enough people here acting as cheerleaders for the froggo, but holy cow does he feel good now. That is all.

:ultsimon::ultrichter:/all superheavyweights: We should enjoy these while we can. As advantage states become optimized, we're all gonna kick ourselves for the praise we had for slow or big-bodied characters (or both) with exploitable recoveries.
 

Nobie

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I don't know about all the superheavies, but I strongly believe Bowser is going to have long-term success.

The big thing is that I think the developers finally realize what a detriment being a big body is, that you have to make up for it somehow.

So they gave him good run speed, a strong dash dance, good air speed, and even increased his fall speed so that he survives even longer.

The most important thing in my view, however, is the grab mixups he has now. In general, grabs are worse in Ultimate, but not for Bowser. His regular grab, with that monstrous range, is buffed from 9 frames to 8. His command grab, the one that can be used in the air, has been buffed from 8 frames grounded/17 air to a universal 6 frames—tied with the fastest throws in the game.

In other words, Bowser has access to both a slower long-range grab and a quicker short-range one, and both are heavy damage and can kill in certain situations. Some other characters have two grabs, but not like this. And sure, opponents can move around and shield less, but Bowser simply has the speed to punish from a distance.

The King of the Koopas is going to stay scary.
 
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Nidtendofreak

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Haven't had a chance to unlock him yet because this is final exam week + I don't want to try to play my old main until I get my Gamecube controller adapter back, but my understanding from the Ike forums is that :ultike:finally has true Aethercide. As in it always meteors if the opponent is hit by the downward motion or gets trapped in the spinning blade, and the opponent always dies before Ike does. Assuming this holds up in testing (different characters and different percentages) this is pretty important in that during last stock situations you probably don't want to risk going off stage to try to finish off Ike: if you get hit by Aether you lose.

And as mentioned by others, appears the pre-release hype is holding up. They gave a strong character with fantastic disjointed range minimal landing lag. The system changes that make it so you can do retreating SH Fairs hurts a bit, but Nair is just stupid. Its probably better than his Uair even which people seem to love. The addition to Eruption is nice but not necessarily practical. Still, in the MUs where we would be willing to try to use Eruption to edgeguard it got that much more dangerous to try to get past.

The FE gang in general all seem to be on lock for high tier, at least in the current moment. We'll have to see how things hold up as things go on.
 

Emblem Lord

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I don't think Belmonts care about Shulk airdodge landing on stage.

Day 3.

Let counter play develop.
 
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ARISTOS

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God bless the best thread on Smashboards is back!

General impressions over the weekend:

:ultpit:: Interestingly plays a grounded game similar to:4metaknight: focused on spaced tilts, dash attack and dash grab to get people into the air, where uair and fair form the core of a strong juggle game. Offstage fair/arrows is devastating to linear recoveries and can win games on its own, which it needs to bc he isn't killing on stage easily. Has no SH aerial game to speak of which might hurt him in the long run.

:ultridley:: Obvious big body weaknesses which compounded with low air speed/v linear recovery is quite bad but nair/ftilt/dtilt form a really strong zone around Ridley which force a ton of respect-respect which leads to side-B. Ridley's ledge trap game is really strong thanks to the above moves and fireballs.

:ultchrom:: Really fun! All the FE characters are quite great atm

:ultincineroar:: Lack of air speed really dooms this character, as it hurts his aerial chase game (turning uair from bonkers to just really good). His ability to win games from nothing is hilarious, and his buttons in general are very good. Once Revenge is up pretty much everything starts killing. Lariat is the greatest move introduced to Smash Bros.

:ultcloud:: Still good, pretty much does all Smash 4 stuff except a bit neutered.

:ultbayonetta:: IMO very bad, not sure what the character can do in neutral besides run dtilt/nair? Maybe someone more versed with her can elaborate.

:ultwolf:: Really strong neutral game, lasers are good at controlling space, nair is good as a dash catch option/landing option. Has to raw kill which hurts but thanks to his neutral and safish options like ftilt it isn't awful.

:ultinkling:: A known problem, the low profile dash makes reading their next option an issue (but there's a small tell when they begin a non-dash action: the squid pops up instead of sliding on the ground)

:ultlink::ulttoonlink::ultyounglink:: All good in different ways.
 
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Browny

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:ultincineroar: is love
:ultincineroar: is life
I knew from his trailer that he was the one.

His pivot grab slide is fantastic for a slow character, its actually insane. Neutral b has invincibility frames to completely stuff approaches and beat ledge options. Cross chop to get over enemies with oppressive ground spacing tools (like IC's, Ridley, Snake etc) and kill them <100%. It's also so fast that its a great suicide bomb move offstage if the enemy tries to gimp him and you know you're going down. His counter puts the enemy in a 50:50 state where the wrong guess is going to be very painful to them. Dsmash can legitimately punish countless approaches and ledge options and is strong.

And I haven't even said a single word about his damage output.
 

Guido65

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First impressions of some characters
:ultincineroar:: I think incineroar is gonna be a big sleeper character because despite lacking speed his damage output is ridiculous, has stupidly good frame data for a heavy, he has a lot of good buttons. Incineroar down tilt for example is a combo starter and a safe poke when spaced and even at kill % it can combo into a bair or darkest lariat for a kill option. To top it all off both legs are intangible during the move. This isn't even mentioning his other good tools which includes moves like forward tilt while slow oozes of kill power and is fairly safe for that kind of power. Up tilt is another rather good tool in his arsenal that can anti air and combo plus also has intangibility on his head and has good reach like most of his moves. Aerial wise he has very good aerials all around minus dair which is just okay. Nair is a frame 5 aerial(most heavies dream of a move like that that can kill and is a quick aerial for get off me purposes), fair has great reach, combos out of down throw, fairly quick for it's speed coming out at frame 8. Bair is also fast, fairly safe and kills. Up air is ridiculous in terms of most aspects, and combos into almost anything and even sends into tumble at 0%! And this doesn't mention his grab game which is also excellent.

:4miisword:: Mii swordfighter looks pretty strong now. Mii sword cord has found a lot of stuff about him and his changes and so far he got a ton of buffs to like a ton of his moves. Mobility buffs were also big for him with his air speed being higher than cloud his air game significantly improved all around. Nair doesnt have a Blind spot anymore
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First image is smash 4 and 2nd is ultimate. Nair got about a 5 frame startup reduction now starting right behind him like clouds does, fair 1 can combo into moves easier, bair has more range, uair has more kill power now. Dash attack kills now as well which is nice. Stone scabbard got a distance buff and snaps regardless of him facing the ledge or not, and shuriken of light has less endlag. There's more notable changes he got but those were the ones I could remember off the top of my head. Edit: checked discord and counter can now combo off of it and has the endlag of diddy kong's down tilt
 
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Inking2003

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Ok let's talk :ultkrool:

Saw a video recently on just how good he is. His Bair is a spike, and I vote that we call a combo pulled off using his Side B and Neutral B the "K.K. Slider." Yes, I know that K.K. Slider is already a character, but calling the combo that just sounds so good and makes sense when you think about it. First K for Krown and second K for Kannon. I know those are spelled incorrectly, but so is Cruel in his name. Also, I see the King liking his K's. His Neutral B is basically one of the best ways to passively edge guard in the game. Just fire, suck, launch, and repeat. That Neutral B can also be used in a kill confirm on almost every character except for the ones with insane recoveries or more than one mid-air jump. His Neutral B can also throw opponents backwards with the right input, and that's how this tactic works. It will only work on Battlefield or Omega forms, don't try this if the stage isn't in that style. To get this kill confirm, suck up the opponent while falling below the stage, then fire them backwards towards the stage. They should hit on the slanted part of the stage, which will either KO them off the bottom of the screen if they're at a high enough percent, or will bounce them down low enough that they will be unable to recover. When doing this, you will almost always fall off the bottom of the screen after pulling this off since his movement lag between doing this and using his Up B is too long, so only do it when you're a stock above the opponent and wish to give them the maximum amount of disrespect. Now, I'm not saying :ultkrool:=:ultmetaknight: from Brawl, but I will say he is probably in low S tier to mid A tier range. He is definitely your choice is you want to make your opponent salty by the end of the match.
 

Rizen

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An important thing to keep in mind when ranking characters is SSBU's power level is higher than SSB4. Much of the cast got mobility buffs, F3 universal jump squat, tons of landing lag reductions, acting out of dash is easier (I keep Dsmashing by accident because I press C down trying to DA) and specific character buffs. It's easy to speak highly of any given character but what matters is how good they are relative to everyone else. Tournament data will give us a better grasp on how they stack up.
 

Emblem Lord

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More thoughts on FE gang, specifically Marcina and Chroy.

:ultmarth: - He feels really good, but in a faster game I felt getting tippers was tough. And since wavedashing has recovery (12f, please correct me if I'm wrong) forget about using that to space yourself. And his short hop seems a bit higher and just a little floatier. Again, someone please correct me if I am wrong. I felt like nairing in neutral was less dominant in past games. SHFF Fair still felt super nasty good though. He of course has other nonsense he now has access too. Running dtilt, jab, reverse utilt. Melee/Project M neutral options all up in here. D-tilt does not net anything guaranteed, however. Same with jab. Dancing Blade is......strange. Connects fine, but very difficult to tipper. You will not be killing with this at reasonable percents. Tipper F-smash still kills at obscenely low percents. Still an edgeguarding god. He is definitely strong. His biggest issues are consistency in a fast paced engine and his Dancing Blade being the worst out of the 4 characters with his mold.

:ultlucina: - In the past there were always debates about Lucina's viability when compared to her ancestor. I think that argument is dead. Lucina is superior. BIG FACTS!! Don't @ me. She has all that Marth has, but with a more consistent Dancing Blade and better SHFF Nair 1 confirms. And Nair 1 is much much easier to confirm in this game compared to 4. The hitstun appears to be greater. I know I personally was able to visually confirm a hit or block with little difficulty compared to 4 which seemed to have the same low hitstun on Nair 1 even at higher percents. Much more consistent Dancing Blade. If you are at 120% and you whiff a button, she will hit this and you die. No challenging your fate here. If you like Marth, you should probably play Lucina instead. If only just because her Dancing Blade is superior. Just the way the cookie crumbles.

:ultroy: - He runs fast. He hits hard. Nice combos. Blazer confirms from Jab. Nair 1 confirms into lots of stuff. Utilt combos at low percents and Uair is nice as well. Cross-up Uair sets up for more uair and other things. Better recovery than Chrom, but he loses comboability sooner. He is stronger on defense than Chrom because Blazer is slightly better out of shield, but only slightly because it kills. His dtilt is worse out of run because of his sweetspot mechanic. He wants to go in, and that button does not lend itself to that playstyle. Running Jab is crazy good though and thanks to his physics/speed he actually has strong Nair pressure, and overall stronger stage presence than Marcina. Double Edge Dance is good now. The sweetspot works well with it. Flare blade is actually an ok poke and edgeguarding tool. He recovers fast. His edgeguarding is not as good as Marcina, but if he gets a hit in it is usually over thanks to his power. He will have a niche use with players that do not want Chrom's recovery, but still want good range with incredible speed and power. I am excited to see that my old main is tourney viable.

:ultchrom: - He has all of Roy's amazing baseline stats and really none of the flaws. Comboability lasts longer and he has devastating combos ending in Soaring Strike for massive damage. His dtilt is a much better poke. His jab confirms, while not as good as Roy can still put in work. Still has Nair 1 confirms like all Marthlings. His Double Edge Dance is just as consistent as Roy and works even better for him. His Flare Blade works like Roy's. Just a solid option to throw out on occasion in neutral and solid for edge guarding. He is completely and utterly oppressive and his only flaw is his recovery. But on stage he is a god. Easy top tier material right now.

Right now Marth to me is clearly the weakest, but that is not saying much. He is the worst out of 4 potential top tiers. High tier at worst and I don't think anyone disagree. They are all good at the things that matter. Creating ugly 50/50 situations, tech chasing, block pressure, easy confirms for solid damage and of course footsies. Nothing feels worse then fighting one of these guys and have them dash in your face then dash back, you whiff a button and they hit you with DB/DED. If you want to beat them, then get them in disadvantage and mess them up. Just don't get predictable. Especially vs Roy and Chrom. They have the best counters imo in terms of covering their bodies.

Keeping it real you should probably have a pocket Chrom or Lucina right now.

It's still early, but I don't believe any one can deny what they are capable of.

I will talk about :ultryu: and :ultken: later.
 
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ProfessorVincent

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More thoughts on FE gang, specifically Marcina and Chroy.

:ultmarth: - He feels really good, but in a faster game I felt getting tippers was tough. And since wavedashing has recovery (12f, please correct me if I'm wrong) forget about using that to space yourself. And his short hop seems a bit higher and just a little floatier. Again, someone please correct me if I am wrong. I felt like nairing in neutral was less dominant in past games. SHFF Fair still felt super nasty good though. He of course has other nonsense he now has access too. Running dtilt, jab, reverse utilt. Melee/Project M neutral options all up in here. D-tilt does not net anything guaranteed, however. Same with jab. Dancing Blade is......strange. Connects fine, but very difficult to tipper. You will not be killing with this at reasonable percents. Tipper F-smash still kills at obscenely low percents. Still an edgeguarding god. He is definitely strong. His biggest issues are consistency in a fast paced engine and his Dancing Blade being the worst out of the 4 characters with his mold.

:ultlucina: - In the past there were always debates about Lucina's viability when compared to her ancestor. I think that argument is dead. Lucina is superior. BIG FACTS!! Don't @ me. She has all that Marth has, but with a more consistent Dancing Blade and better SHFF Nair 1 confirms. And Nair 1 is much much easier to confirm in this game compared to 4. The hitstun appears to be greater. I know I personally was able to visually confirm a hit or block with little difficulty compared to 4 which seemed to have the same low hitstun on Nair 1 even at higher percents. Much more consistent Dancing Blade. If you are at 120% and you whiff a button, she will hit this and you die. No challenging your fate here. If you like Marth, you should probably play Lucina instead. If only just because her Dancing Blade is superior. Just the way the cookie crumbles.

:ultroy: - He runs fast. He hits hard. Nice combos. Blazer confirms from Jab. Nair 1 confirms into lots of stuff. Utilt combos at low percents and Uair is nice as well. Cross-up Uair sets up for more uair and other things. Better recovery than Chrom, but he loses comboability sooner. He is stronger on defense than Chrom because Blazer is slightly better out of shield, but only slightly because it kills. His dtilt is worse out of run because of his sweetspot mechanic. He wants to go in, and that button does not lend itself to that playstyle. Running Jab is crazy good though and thanks to his physics/speed he actually has strong Nair pressure, and overall stronger stage presence than Marcina. Double Edge Dance is good now. The sweetspot works well with it. Flare blade is actually an ok poke and edgeguarding tool. He recovers fast. His edgeguarding is not as good as Marcina, but if he gets a hit in it is usually over thanks to his power. He will have a niche use with players that do not want Chrom's recovery, but still want good range with incredible speed and power. I am excited to see that my old main is tourney viable.

:ultchrom: - He has all of Roy's amazing baseline stats and really none of the flaws. Comboability lasts longer and he has devastating combos ending in Soaring Strike for massive damage. His dtilt is a much better poke. His jab confirms, while not as good as Roy can still put in work. Still has Nair 1 confirms like all Marthlings. His Double Edge Dance is just as consistent as Roy and works even better for him. His Flare Blade works like Roy's. Just a solid option to throw out on occasion in neutral and solid for edge guarding. He is completely and utterly oppressive and his only flaw is his recovery. But on stage he is a god. Easy top tier material right now.

Right now Marth to me is clearly the weakest, but that is not saying much. He is the worst out of 4 potential top tiers. High tier at worst and I don't think anyone disagree. They are all good at the things that matter. Creating ugly 50/50 situations, tech chasing, block pressure, easy confirms for solid damage and of course footsies. Nothing feels worse then fighting one of these guys and have them dash in your face then dash back, you whiff a button and they hit you with DB/DED. If you want to be beat then then get them in disadvantage and mess them up. Just don't get predictable. Especially vs Roy and Chrom. They have the best counters imo in terms of covering their bodies.

Keeping it real you should probably have a pocket Chrom or Lucina right now.

It's still early, but I don't believe any of can deny what they are capable of.

I will talk about :ultryu: and :ultken: later.
Have you experimented much with run turn around slide ftilt/fsmash (or whatever kids are calling it these days) with marcina? I was happy to find that both add significant range to their kill options out of a run. I've been dreaming about jab2 or back throw into tipper f-smash with the right (or rather, wrong) di from the opponent. Maybe if you have conditioned them not to double jump out of hitstun...
 

MapleBeasts

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Falco still feels like he's going to be on the weaker side of the roster. Though he's received a nice buff to his jab so that it actually works as intended now, he still has some noticeable flaws. His air speed is still absolutely horrendous so his combo game is extremely limited. His up air in particular feels like it doesn't kill nearly as fast as it should. There's been instances where I've up aired a Mario at 140% off a double jump and did not get the kill. Also because he jumps very high, shorthop aerials on small hit box characters are going to be unreliable at best and an easy punish at worst. Perhaps the best thing about him is that bair is still godly. It comes out fast and kills early. He also is one of the best characters in the game on the ledge. He's got so many tools to avoid being ledge trapped and his deceptively fast upward momentum off his jump allows him to catch people guarding the ledge on stage off guard.

Yoshi feels like he will be an absolute monster in the right hands. Eggs bounce and are much easier to use. This makes his neutral game better. Another really nice change for him is the launch angle of up air. It now launches opponents straight up and has a fairly forgiving hit box. You can string up airs together with ease. ftilt, utilt, and dthrow are all able to set up aerial combos and he does a great job racking up the damage. fsmash and usmash both kill at fairly early percentages, bair is a kill move at reasonable percentages, and he's got good frame data on every aerial except fair (no duh). Nair is a great landing option and good out of shield with a short hop. He also received a huge buff to his recovery with the reintroduction of directional air dodges. I think he's gonna end up being high tier.
 
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DavemanCozy

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First Snake impressions:
- Yes

He seems to play very similarly to Brawl (by which I'm implying that all the same things are good about him). The only things I miss so far are being able to chain multiple dthrows and dacus, though of course the regrab mechanics have been universal since S4, and I wouldn't expect to see a Smash character unintentionally slide across the stage with a mortar under Sakurai's piercing gaze in this age of patches.

Grenades are still godlike but there are likely a lot more characters who can contest them with their own projectile game. Also they come out on frame 1, though trading is a bit less good now since Snake weighs 106 instead of 113.

Damage output overall is higher than in Brawl which is just silly considering how much damage he did there, and how everyone got pretty major damage reductions in S4, and most of that wasn't tuned back up going into Ultimate (as far as I'm aware?). Up tilt is still dumb. Good. The range, along with ftilt, is noticeably shorter, but still solid compared to what you tend to see from similarly sized human characters in Smash.

Recovery is a question mark in future meta, but his high recovery is basically the same as in Brawl - B reversing nades all day into instant shield upon landing. His low recovery on the other hand is actually far superior to Brawl's due to up b snapping the ledge and directional airdodge being a thing.

Not fully familiar with his frame data in Brawl, but utilt startup is still 6, ftilt 4 (they both do 18% fresh), jab 3, dash attack 5. Why does a character like this exist.

Might main. Also trying Falcon and ZSS, but something seems off. Shaya probably hit some of those points, I'm still working on intuition. Though, I am very happy ZSS' side b and dtilt are good moves again.
I really like Snake myself. Something that I found with his first jump is he can't reach the side BF platforms. Was it like this in Brawl? I don't really remember but I did find that his airdodge animation just moves him the right way to let him land on top of the platform at full jump. A neat little trick I've been doing to get more stage control in that specific stage is doing a downwards directional airdodge at the apex of full jump, he'll do a small wavedash which can help with positioning or ledge-sliding off to cancel the landing lag.
 

Rich Homie Quan

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Chrom is so, so good. I don’t have much to add about Soaring Slash besides have fun edguarding him consistently without getting dragged down.

Chrom is great because he can kill at the tip of his sword. Combine that with his amazing mobility, frame data, and the fact that he has the Marth/Roy moveset and he becomes terrifying. I think he’s much better than Roy because of this - being able to space opens up so many options for Chrom.

I’m having a great time with Marth too but I can’t help but feel that they nerfed his kit. Changes in jab and dancing blade makes kill setups harder imo. He feels buffed overall, however, because the changes in engine benefit him greatly. Low ending lag and edgeguarding make Marth and Lucina awesome.
 
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Inking2003

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Chrom is great because he can kill at the tip of his sword. Combine that with his amazing mobility, frame data, and the fact that he has the Marth/Roy moveset and he becomes terrifying. I think he’s much better than Roy because of this - being able to space opens up so many options for Chrom.
While that may be true, like his FE bretherin, he is difficult to master. The combination of the movesets of :ultmarth:/:ultroy: make him harder to learn than his fellow FE fighters. Everyone knows how the rest of the FE cast plays from SSB4, Chrom is new, and it takes a while to learn something new, even if they are just a mesh of other fighters moves. Spacing also takes time to learn as well. And on that topic of spacing, when facing against another player, spacing is much harder to do. good luck having that spacing perfect all the time
 

Rich Homie Quan

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While that may be true, like his FE bretherin, he is difficult to master. The combination of the movesets of :ultmarth:/:ultroy: make him harder to learn than his fellow FE fighters. Everyone knows how the rest of the FE cast plays from SSB4, Chrom is new, and it takes a while to learn something new, even if they are just a mesh of other fighters moves. Spacing also takes time to learn as well. And on that topic of spacing, when facing against another player, spacing is much harder to do. good luck having that spacing perfect all the time
Absolutely, but I wouldn’t put it past people to be able to master spacing with him in this game. My point is less about spacing all the time and more about how Chrom has more options than Roy because he doesn’t need to go IN like how Roy does - at least not to the same extent.

Being able to USE the tip of his sword opens up options for him, imo. He’s going to be more complex because of it and I’m very curious to see how far his Meta will progress.
 

Emblem Lord

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While that may be true, like his FE bretherin, he is difficult to master. The combination of the movesets of :ultmarth:/:ultroy: make him harder to learn than his fellow FE fighters. Everyone knows how the rest of the FE cast plays from SSB4, Chrom is new, and it takes a while to learn something new, even if they are just a mesh of other fighters moves. Spacing also takes time to learn as well. And on that topic of spacing, when facing against another player, spacing is much harder to do. good luck having that spacing perfect all the time
Playing Chrom is jokes. lol

But easy for me to talk. Been playing Marth for almost 15 years.

If you have Marth experience, then there really is no reason not to dabble in Chrom. Almost everything transitions right over. Just have to get used to falling fast and a worse recovery.
 
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Diddy Kong

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Playing Chrom is joke. lol

But easy for me to talk. Been playing Marth for almost 15 years.

If you have Marth experience, then there really is no reason not to dabble in Chrom. Almost everything transitions right over. Just have to get used to falling fast and a worse recovery.
I guess playing Chrom becomes easy like that, in many ways he resembles Melee Marth except the tipper. I would compare him most with Lucina and Melee Marth, but possibly even faster than Marth. He's kinda ridiculous, and I have plans for him in the Dojo.
 

PK Gaming

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Please feel free to stop/infract me if I step out of line, but I have something I want to spitball

I don't think a traditional tier list (wherein each character is ranked in order from best to work) will work for this game. Or at least, it won't be very feasible. What I instead propose, is a more simplified tier list, something akin to what the Fire Emblem community has switched over for their own tier lists:



Characters are broken up into subdivisions with no regard for numbering. These subdivisions can be used to describe a character's performance in the current metagame, and I think they're more useful than conventional "high tier, low tier" descriptors.

Again if i'm out of line, i'll back off, but I think this system is useful for a cast of 70+
 

Thinkaman

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Please feel free to stop/infract me if I step out of line, but I have something I want to spitball

I don't think a traditional tier list (wherein each character is ranked in order from best to work) will work for this game. Or at least, it won't be very feasible. What I instead propose, is a more simplified tier list, something akin to what the Fire Emblem community has switched over for their own tier lists:

Characters are broken up into subdivisions with no regard for numbering. These subdivisions can be used to describe a character's performance in the current metagame, and I think they're more useful than conventional "high tier, low tier" descriptors.

Again if i'm out of line, i'll back off, but I think this system is useful for a cast of 70+
So you are proposing we classify people into different levels or rows? What word should we use for such a concept?
 

Zinith

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Please feel free to stop/infract me if I step out of line, but I have something I want to spitball

I don't think a traditional tier list (wherein each character is ranked in order from best to work) will work for this game. Or at least, it won't be very feasible. What I instead propose, is a more simplified tier list, something akin to what the Fire Emblem community has switched over for their own tier lists:



Characters are broken up into subdivisions with no regard for numbering. These subdivisions can be used to describe a character's performance in the current metagame, and I think they're more useful than conventional "high tier, low tier" descriptors.

Again if i'm out of line, i'll back off, but I think this system is useful for a cast of 70+
That system works for a tactical RPG with units that have abilities that aren't dependent of the other units. Fighting games are different, and the effectiveness of fighters are dependent of the other fighters...
 

PK Gaming

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So you are proposing we classify people into different levels or rows? What word should we use for such a concept?
Viability Rankings

Sarcasm aside, the crux of my point is that we should ditch numerical rankings altogether. There's no meaningful difference between Jigglypuff and G&W being 43 and 44 in E tier (examples). My idea would b to group them in a category such as "Not tournament viable"

That system works for a tactical RPG with units that have abilities that aren't dependent of the other units. Fighting games are different, and the effectiveness of fighters are dependent of the other fighters...
Up until recently, the FE community used a traditional tier list. There's nothing inherent to the genre that makes a tier list where a bunch of characters are grouped together invalid. If anything, it cuts down on the tedium of arguing who's the "absolute worst character" and avoids gigantic blobs which amount to guesswork.
 

Ffamran

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His air speed is still absolutely horrendous so his combo game is extremely limited.
Falco's air speed as you noted was always slow. It was slow in Melee, it was slow in Brawl, it was slow in Smash 4 even after the patch, and it's still slow in Ultimate.

It affects how he can combo, but with many of his moves launching at vertical or vertically diagonal angles, it's not that big of a deal. For example, Utilt and U-throw put his opponent above him, Dtilt puts his opponent up and in front of him and usually with a lot of hit stun because of how much damage and knockback it deals, Uair also puts his opponent above him and with his jump, he can quickly clear the distance between them for another follow-up if possible before the opponent drifts too far away from him, and Dair on grounded opponents pop them up for Falco similarly to Dtilt while on airborne opponents, they get spiked, Falco can possibly fast fall to reach them if they didn't get spiked to the lower blast zone. It's only really Nair, Fair, and D-throw that are outliers where Falco combos or strings horizontally.

Having good air speed would be nice, but given Falco's ability to combo and string things have been fine since Melee because of how his moves work together, it's not really necessary or that detrimental in my opinion. For neutral or disadvantage, however, yeah, his low air speed is an issue.

His up air in particular feels like it doesn't kill nearly as fast as it should. There's been instances where I've up aired a Mario at 140% off a double jump and did not get the kill.
This isn't anything new because of what happened to Uair in 1.0.8 Smash 4 and in Ultimate. Uair does 1 less damage, 9%, compared to Brawl and 1.0.8 Smash 4 Uair and 2 less damage than launch Smash 4 Uair. If it has the same or similar knockback values to 1.0.8 Smash Uair, then it's going to be even weaker.

Brawl and launch Smash 4 Uair had 27 base and 100 growth and a hit angle of 68 degrees on the leg hitboxes and 30 base and 20 growth and a hit angle of 80 degrees on the body hitbox which existed since Melee because reasons. 1.0.8 changed the knockback values to 35 base and 90 growth and the hit angles to 65, 75, and 85 degrees for all hitboxes. The scaling is much worse where at early percents, it does enough knockback that it's useful for comboing and stringing moves together, but at later percents, it just misses the mark where it can kill reliably, especially with the furthest hitbox having a slightly worse hit angle than before the patch. This is in addition to its damage reduction to Brawl's damage and Ultimate took it even further by dropping it to 9%.

Ultimate Uair's knockback is unknown at the moment, however, but it's either the same or similar enough that it's the crappy 1.0.8 Uair considering how it's been working.

I hate 1.0.8 Uair. The only problem with Falco's Uair prior to the patch was that it still had the silly body hitbox from Melee. It being frame 10 wasn't that bad, but Smash 4 Falco's pre-1.0.8 Uair was both a combo tool and a kill move and that was absolutely freaking awesome. I'm guessing they wanted it to be faster, well, then that's what they should have done. Drop it to frame 7 from frame 10, drop its damage to 10% if they felt like it was too powerful, but they shouldn't have messed with its knockback values. What they did was try to give a Captain Falcon, Mario, and ZSS-like Uair on a character who has slow horizontal movement overall and on a move that's not a backflip where it hits front then behind, but a frontflip where it hits behind then front. If it was frame 4 like Pikachu's, then sure, but it's frame 7 as of 1.0.8 and by the time it hits in front of him, it's around frame 10 or 11 which is still slower than Captain Falcon's and ZSS's frame 6 Uairs or Mario's frame 4 Uair.

Also because he jumps very high, shorthop aerials on small hit box characters are going to be unreliable at best and an easy punish at worst.
This is less of Falco's hop height problem and more of his hitboxes problem. According to this thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/lan...ead-training-mode-tested-all-76-chars.464174/, Falco's hop height is only 0.1 higher than Fox's where Fox's jump height is 3.7 stage units, a little higher than Mario's, to Falco's 4.8 stage units. Greninja's jump is 4.0 stage units, but Greninja's hop is 2.0 to Falco's 1.9. I think it has to do something with jump force and other stuff that determines how high a character jumps since Falco is a fast-faller, but his jump is consistently the highest in the games he appears in and without buffs like Shulk's Jump Art.

Anyway, the only aerial Falco has that reliably hits low is Dair for obvious reasons. Nair, Fair, and Bair hit linearly in front of him and Uair covers above him. Fair at least his body is parallel to the ground and it has a landing hit, but that's still not comparable to having an move that actually hits below him because the move is aimed at hitting below the character, arcs low enough like Ike's Fair, or hits and lingers in a way like Link's, Mario's, or Wolf's Nairs.

Perhaps the best thing about him is that bair is still godly. It comes out fast and kills early.
Falco's Bair is frame 9 on startup now, the same as Fox's and like Wolf's, its startup was doubled from the previous game. Falco's Bair going from frame 4 to frame 9 and Wolf's going from frame 6 to frame 13. Their Bairs are still stupid given how hard they hit; clean Bair for Falco and sweet-spotted Bair for Wolf. Fox would probably kill Falco for his Bair, Smash 4 or Ultimate.

Out of a jump or a hop, it's roughly the same speed as his old Bair due to his jump being frame 3 now instead of frame 5 in Melee or frame 6 in Brawl and Smash 4. In the air, however, it's average in speed.
 
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