• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

matt4300

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
821
Location
USA-AL
Link is awesome now, Yoshi is worlds better, and we are working on Bowser. Also thanks for not even considering the fact that a ton of us are working on these buffs, and you only thank them. Seriously, people don't even thank us for the work we put into this, all you do is complain :-\
ehhhh, I have thanked many of you multiple times ... I might not have thanked you specifically, but I am not ungrateful for you either. All of you are a godsend. Vbrawl was complete suck, and you have all made it worlds better.
What I was ranting about are people that want the best chars in the game to have buffs, but don't want link to have a better recovery, yoshi to be able to jump oos. That stuff erks me for more than just Brawl.

I may have gotten caught up in my ranting, and as it says this was before beta 3. These things are still a problem, and theres still no reason to not buff bowser to dk quality.
 

The Cape

Smash Master
Joined
May 16, 2004
Messages
4,478
Location
Carlisle, PA
Matt as I said on Brawl+ Brigade: Maybe you just suck. (jkjk)

As for Yoshi, lets fix his sheild, give him a sheild drop animation speed up. If we can give him optional DJC and knockback on D smash I think he will be a hard hitting monster.

Edit:
Bowser is amazing as he is. He tanks, period. He is not an aggressive monster but he still ***** people hard.

Link
OMFG his recovery pwns and he ***** on stage. Are we playing the same character here?
 

matt4300

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
821
Location
USA-AL
Matt as I said on Brawl+ Brigade: Maybe you just suck. (jkjk)

As for Yoshi, lets fix his sheild, give him a sheild drop animation speed up. If we can give him optional DJC and knockback on D smash I think he will be a hard hitting monster.

Edit:
Bowser is amazing as he is. He tanks, period. He is not an aggressive monster but he still ***** people hard.

Link
OMFG his recovery pwns and he ***** on stage. Are we playing the same character here?
@_@ I said it in both of my last 2 posts, I typed that rant before beta 3... Bowser is worlds better now, and link is much better aswell (I still think he needs a more reliable kill move.. since most of the obvious highteirs like falcon, kirby, fox have moves that kill it very low percents, they survive longer of the top than him, can combo better, edge gaurd better, and are much faster)

Also this is why I thanked cape specifically concerning char balance in that rant. I like his ideas for balanceing. LIke the yoshi ones up there.
 

Alopex

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
909
@Shanus
That's what developing a game is all about, man. Sakurai certainly got more hate than thanks for his work on Brawl. That's the life, man. Your consolation? The fact that everything you're doing can also be enjoyed by you.

@Cape
Then why did you want to keep Bowser's grab release stuff? If Bowser is amazing as is, why were you looking to keep that exploit in his repertoire? I mean, he must be missing SOMETHING offensively if you'd stoop down to the level of seeing an exploit as a tool for his offense...
What is he missing that isn't better dealt with by fixing his attack speeds/damage instead of by retaining broken mechanics?
You may have changed your mind about retaining the grab release stuff, but at one point after Beta 3, you thought it to be a good idea. So why?
 

The Cape

Smash Master
Joined
May 16, 2004
Messages
4,478
Location
Carlisle, PA
Bowser plays grab heavy. Period. Always has.

I liked the idea of it being unique and him having the ability to link his grabs into more options (jab jab, forward B, and in rare occasions jab down B).

It gave his grab more options that his four throws. Its kind of a throwback to his old forward B which gave him a total of six throws. Now he only has four and a flying powerbomb.

I still think Bowser and only Bowser should be able to combo with a slight advantage off his grab release. It gives Bowser more guaranteed options off of his grabs. Something he needs.

Bowser has never been speed or combo heavy. He is a punishment character, plain and simple. The fact that he tanks like a MoFo now just makes him that much better. I personally LOVE the character, always have, always will.
 

Alopex

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
909
He still retains the advantage that his grab release keeps his enemies closer to him than any other character's grab release. So that means that, out of anyone, Bowser is still the character with the most direct options out of a grounded grab break.
Especially considering how most players button mash to get out of a grab and thus are invariably unready to counterattack as fast as the attacker out of a grab release.

So he does maintain a strong release game, it's just no longer "idiot proof", as Tatsuman said.
 

Nakamaru

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 10, 2006
Messages
3,798
Location
Far far into the stars
I must be missing the part where the grab release is broken. I really dont see how you would get into situations where you would grab bowser there being an opportunity for a grab release. I've really only seen them on bowser's end and when he has you in a grab he has the advantage anyway.

The best he can hope to do is grab across the stage, toss you off, and then hope for an edgegaurd. Which he isn't all that good at.

Also you have two options when grabbed. You can either button mash to try and get out faster, or wait and anticipate the throw to DI it correctly or properly counter out of a grab release. Its not something that any button masher should be allowed to do. There is some essence of timing from both parties.

I feel like im starting to ramble so im going to stop here.
 

A Diamond For Disease

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 30, 2006
Messages
221
Location
Poughkeepsie, NY
Link is awesome now, Yoshi is worlds better, and we are working on Bowser. Also thanks for not even considering the fact that a ton of us are working on these buffs, and you only thank them. Seriously, people don't even thank us for the work we put into this, all you do is complain :-\
Thanks for making this game better! (not sarcasm)
 

shanus

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
Sorry when I wrote that post it just bothered me a lot. I'm totally cool with constructive criticisms, just the rants were getting very annoying lol
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Hey so Shanus I played with Wolf a lot and I was having much better luck. I still feel he falls too fast but his stage game is still ****. The B-air Wall is amazing and if you can get a D-air off the combos it leads into are pro. As I said, it must have been me playing like crap but he feels good. I still want to see how he plays with a slower fall speed, but he is better then I whined about earlier.

Thanks for listening to little old me though. When can we expect the changes to Beta 3? (Link with 35% ALC)
 

lamelikemike

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 25, 2007
Messages
39
im sorry, i guess i might have missed something, but where can i get my hands on these character specific "FIX" codes. of which i have heard most about, Bowser Dont Care.
 

Alopex

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
909
If they stay closer to Bowser, with his slow as **** moves. Doesnt that put HIM at the disadvantage now?
Well, since both can act at the exact same time, its effectively neutral.

But Bowser's moves *are* too slow. Thus why I and MuBa recommended a slight increase in their speed. You know, kind of like how Ganon's jab got that treatment?



@Nakamaru
The brokenness kicked in when you mentioned "grab across the stage". Chain grab releases are as broken as chain grabs, and we already got rid of the latter.

Furthermore, grab releases should not be used for guaranteed combo starters or guaranteed hits.
Grab releases can't be DI'd.
Throws can.

Characters who use throws to set up combos/hits still need to worry about their opponent's DI in order to actually initiate the combo or land the hit.
Characters who use grab releases don't have to worry about DI at all, since the opponent CAN'T DI. It allows for guaranteed combo initiation since the opponent is entirely helpless or guaranteed connection of a hit which could be a kill move.

That's brokenness.
 

Blank Mauser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Messages
2,904
Location
Iowa
random note: has anyone that plays other fighters noticed that in 9/10 games one of the best characters is always one of the fastest?
in the case of vB this is partly true (MK ofcourse) and in B+ this is a lot more evident, because now also fox, sonic, CF and kirby (semi fast) are reaching for the best spots.

/random

can anyone tell me why wario was so high on the vB tier list?
Sonic is not top tier material. Kirby is high tier because he has nice range moves, a fast killing Fsmash, a great spike, better than most recovery, and great combo ability and options overall. Wario was high in the vB tier list because of his fart. It wasn't the only reason, but it was probably one of the best. His floatiness, good recovery, tricky airplay, multi-situational bite, and his killing power all complimented a nice patient style for saving up one of the most game making KO's in the game. :lick:

Maybe cutting a few frames off of Yoshi's pivot grab would be nice too.
Yes, as I said in the Yoshi thread that would really help Yoshi a lot. Also making his pummel faster so he can do maybe twice or even three times more pummels than usual would help buff him too.
 

Alopex

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
909
Sonic is not top tier material. Kirby is high tier because he has nice range moves, a fast killing Fsmash, a great spike, better than most recovery, and great combo ability and options overall. Wario was high in the vB tier list because of his fart. It wasn't the only reason, but it was probably one of the best. His floatiness, good recovery, tricky airplay, multi-situational bite, and his killing power all complimented a nice patient style for saving up one of the most game making KO's in the game. :lick:
Uhh... what? The Fart was by far the least important aspect that made Wario high tier.

Also, Sonic is definitely deadly in Brawl+.
 

The_Guide

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
395
Location
Maryland
Is it just me, or does speeding up moves shrink the hitboxes? I decided to up Marth's aerials to 1.5 (just for kicks), and I swear, nair and dair shrank. With nair, I shrugged it off as an trick of faster animation, but when I daired, it definitely felt like the sweetspot was closer to Marth's body. If this is something that is already known, or I just have no clue what I'm talking about, I apologize.
 

Blank Mauser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Messages
2,904
Location
Iowa
Uhh... what? The Fart was by far the least important aspect that made Wario high tier.

Also, Sonic is definitely deadly in Brawl+.
How was the fart not important? If you've ever seen a good Wario player they WILL camp for that fart because its one of his best moves. It comes out of nowhere and is just a devastating KO.

Sonic is decent in Brawl+. He still has a lot of the same flaws as vBrawl (Minus killing options on FF'ers) and only a few buffs.

Also, to everyone contributing to the codeset keep up the good work. =P
 

Dan_X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
1,335
Location
Boston, MA
Updating Momentum? What's the status regarding this code? Has Phantom Wings said that he can "fix" the code? Remove the walk-off momentum and such? Also, I didn't feel that it really needed to be "toned" down all that much. Falco seems fine, I don't think it's too far. It seems just enough for many characters. The momentum needs to work better for certain select characters, sonic being one of them.

I feel like toning it down would decrease the point of having a momentum code at all. The sliding could be fixed, I heard mention of a proposed friction mod. Has any hacker commented on the possibility of a friction mod?
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
Updating Momentum? What's the status regarding this code? Has Phantom Wings said that he can "fix" the code? Remove the walk-off momentum and such? Also, I didn't feel that it really needed to be "toned" down all that much. Falco seems fine, I don't think it's too far. It seems just enough for many characters. The momentum needs to work better for certain select characters, sonic being one of them.

I feel like toning it down would decrease the point of having a momentum code at all. The sliding could be fixed, I heard mention of a proposed friction mod. Has any hacker commented on the possibility of a friction mod?
I mentioned:

80% instead of 100%
No walk off momentum
No specials momentum
Fixes on chars who don't have it

No word back yet. :(

I hope we have a friction mod also
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
@Apolex-Sonic's fair was definitely buffed in brawl+ not nerfed. It had very little KO potential to start with, and was only KOing when it was completely fresh and only at high altitudes, with absolutely no safe combo setups.

Now it still KO's at high altitudes (admitedly, you have to get a tiny bit more damage on them first), it doesn't stale (meaning Sonic doesn't have to worry about saving one of his best moves for the sake of just killing the opponent), it has a guaranteed kill setup (as well as several occasional setups), and it combos!
 

SketchHurricane

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
669
Location
Winter Park, FL
Wow, a lot of talk about Bowser since my last post. I want you guys to know that I'm not completely against speed for Bowser, I'm just stressing that there might be other things we can do. Speed is kind of a cop out IMO. It's just like "hey this character sucks? Speed em up, case closed!" Yes I know speed is a huge factor, yes I know about MvC. Sentinel wasn't slow, but primarily it was his range that did the trick.

My training partner was a Bowser main for most of Brawl. I know Bowser's playstyle pretty well. Let's look at some of his strengths and see what we can do.

Throws
It's a shame that the throw speed code is ******** on Bowser. But we did seem to accomplish adding ending lag to MK's downsmash. Is there anyway to take ending lag away from Bowsers throws? I'm not even sure if he could still combo, but it's worth a thought.

Grab release
He had a great grab game of course, partially due to the grab release stuff. Now, personally, I see nothing wrong with grab release combos unless they are infinite.
@Alopex
How is it any different from a regular combo? Sure there is DI, but there are still plenty of 2 hitter quitters that DI does little to avoid (CF upThrow to knee/sideB to knee, Jiggz uair to rest, ect). Grab release was the one thing about his grab game that combo'd since his actual throws didn't. He could even kill some bigger/slower characters with upB out of grab release. There's nothing wrong with Bowser having something guaranteed, is there? Grab release is a choice made by the player when they are already guaranteed damage just from the grab. Grab release doesn't create anything guaranteed where there already wasn't!

Does using an exploit as a way to smooth over balancing a character seem a bit lazy to anyone else?...Come on guys, we can be a bit more creative than that. We've got so many tools at our disposal to make Bowser more viable, and the best we can come up with is making his grab idiot proof?...don't just leave a stupid exploit in the game because one or two characters would do better with it.
Speeding up his grab release is no more lazier than speeding up anything else, and it actually is more creative than speeding up most other things. If Bowser is the only one with a grab release, that makes him unique aka a creative buff. Who said we had to leave it in for the others? Just keep it for Bowser - He's the only character that actually relied on it to be viable. No one else needed it, it was just another option for them. There's nothing stupid about it though: you earn the grab, you earn the damage, whether it's from a release or not.

SideB
The bodyslam was great partially due to insane range, the ISJR, and Bowsercide. The decreased buffer window nerfs ISJR not only due to the difficulty of input, but also because the grab frame doesn't come out in time on low buffer settings. This means you cant catch somebody who rushes in to stop the ISJR with the actual grab. With buffer between 1-3, and possibly higher, the only use of the infinite is to create an autocancel effect for his aerials. Giving Bowser a specific buffer setting to preserve this unique part of his game is not out of the question, is it?

Range
Bowser has pretty good range! His ftilt is great for stopping the rush. Bair has super deceptive range and comes out fast. Fair is his best air to ground move, so if there was some way to make the range on that similar to Melee's, that would be a great buff. Don't know if that is possible at this point, though.

upB
Bowser's 'get out of jail free' card. We've already been looking at buffing this, and for good reason. Range and Speed are the obvious choices, but don't forget about height! If we want his recovery better, making it rise higher a la Link's upB would be a great way to do that. Also think about knockback. upB could kill you in Melee. I don't think that's ever going to happen in B+, especially due to gravity.
 

Archangel

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
6,453
Location
Wilmington, Delaware
NNID
combat22386
Why all the fuss about Bowser? The poor guy deserves a break though. He's so slow even with the current hacks that he still gets his *** kicked around. I see nothing wrong with speeding him up a tad in some area's.
 

Alopex

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
909
@Alopex
How is it any different from a regular combo? Sure there is DI, but there are still plenty of 2 hitter quitters that DI does little to avoid (CF upThrow to knee/sideB to knee, Jiggz uair to rest, ect). Grab release was the one thing about his grab game that combo'd since his actual throws didn't. He could even kill some bigger/slower characters with upB out of grab release. There's nothing wrong with Bowser having something guaranteed, is there? Grab release is a choice made by the player when they are already guaranteed damage just from the grab. Grab release doesn't create anything guaranteed where there already wasn't!


Speeding up his grab release is no more lazier than speeding up anything else, and it actually is more creative than speeding up most other things. If Bowser is the only one with a grab release, that makes him unique aka a creative buff. Who said we had to leave it in for the others? Just keep it for Bowser - He's the only character that actually relied on it to be viable. No one else needed it, it was just another option for them. There's nothing stupid about it though: you earn the grab, you earn the damage, whether it's from a release or not.
Sketch, I see your points and you make a solid case, but it's definitely dangerous to think that a grab should earn you guaranteed damage in all cases.

I'll concede that, in some cases, it could be needed for character viability so long as the options out of a grab release are limited in what is guaranteed and also NEVER cause chain grab releases.
However, the exact characters in need of such (and that can't abuse it at the same time) would need to be discussed separately.

For Bowser, I'm willing to concede that him having some grab release guarantees would hardly be problematic since none of his fast-enough moves are particularly powerful or lead into powerful combos.

So I think I have a solution in regards to Bowser.

However, I need to do some math first. So I'll come back here and post it once I've got it all figured out.

Look forward to it, though.
 

TheBuzzSaw

Young Link Extraordinaire
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
10,478
*unstickies*

SOMEONE MAKE A DIRECTORY! This thing is too monstrous to be the introductory Brawl+ guide. >_>
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
I think he is looking for a single topic, probably one with little to no posts, and it links to the all the info. Your topic has lots of extra questions and what not. But /shrug I don't know.
 

TheBuzzSaw

Young Link Extraordinaire
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
10,478
This thread has too much overwhelming info in the first few posts. I would prefer that there be a directory linking to more than just this thread. Who knows? I may end up stickying this one too in the future, but I'd like all the Brawl+ threads to be well referenced.

Is this the only real Brawl+ thread?
 

Jiangjunizzy

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
1,188
Location
irvine, CA
This thread has too much overwhelming info in the first few posts. I would prefer that there be a directory linking to more than just this thread. Who knows? I may end up stickying this one too in the future, but I'd like all the Brawl+ threads to be well referenced.

Is this the only real Brawl+ thread?
there's an FAQ that explains in great detail what brawl+ is and even separates the questions for ADD people. theres a list of links at the bottom. it's exactly what you'd sticky if you were looking for something to sticky.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=213744
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
Kupo, are you on that or do you want someone else to take care of it?
No I'd rather someone else do it

This thread has too much overwhelming info in the first few posts. I would prefer that there be a directory linking to more than just this thread. Who knows? I may end up stickying this one too in the future, but I'd like all the Brawl+ threads to be well referenced.

Is this the only real Brawl+ thread?
No there are several others

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=220363
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=213744
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199810

I dunno if I should just link the pluserys one in the OP. Maybe that would be a good idea.

Buzz, can you please insert another post for me at the very top so I can separate the code sets from the actual list of codes to be made? I don't like how they run together.
 

TheBuzzSaw

Young Link Extraordinaire
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
10,478
I cannot. I don't know how to insert posts into threads.
 
Top Bottom