Combo percent windows for the entire cast (Second Draft)

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

Hello, I've had a very vague concept of what percents each combo works at so I labbed each character and checked when each combo works. Keep in mind this is only the percents where the true combo and also this is tested during training mode, so staling and rage aren't factored into this.
First I will go over a description of the combos I'm doing.

Spoiler: D-throw to F-air

A poor man's bread and butter, works at good percents and easy to pull off. Get's harder to hit every hit of the move at higher percents. 13%

Spoiler: D-throw to Nair

Same deal with D-throw to F-Air, only it has a similar percent window to d-throw f-air and does one more percent than D-throw to F-air. Get's harder to get every hit at higher percents. 14%

Spoiler: D-throw to Up-Smash

The most common Bread and Butter, easy to do and does good damage. But because it stales upsmash; a reliable killing move, it's not recommended. Also some characters can fall out of it. 19%

Spoiler: D-throw to B-air

A more optimal d-throw to f-air. with a similar (and some times larger) percent window can be difficult to true combo at 0%. Also has the potential to follow up with another b-air and lower percents.
Does 18%

Spoiler: D-throw to Up-Air

The go-to combo at high percents and has the largest percent window. Easy to do and does good damage. 16%

Spoiler: F-throw to dash attack

In my opinion, the best BnB combo, possible to follow up with an upsmash and f-air. 21%

Spoiler: D-throw to D-air to N-air

A solid BnB that can be difficult to perform. 24%

Spoiler: Up-throw to Up-air

Unfortunately, this is not a true combo, it has a 3 frame window to escape. However, it can frame trap characters with a frame 4 airdodge and (technically) true combo them, sadly this is only 4 characters;,, & . Some characters can get frame trapped due to their height/weight/fallspeed, they are labeled "only@0".

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VNBlHa6S3BfpZCdO7vPMwjU2utu79Oll8S7fsVI7ZQQ/edit?usp=sharing
Take some of these with a grain of salt, the point is to give everyone a good Idea of what combos to do at each percent. Just added and , and Info about up-throw up-air. Next week I'll lab a bit more with Dash Attack

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Impressive

 

[Koiba]

But because it stales upsmash; a reliable killing move, it's not recommended.

I never really understood this. I think you would do over 9 of Pit's moves again to make it unstale at kill percents, mostly because usmash is in the second slot.


Wouldn't people just use it at the beginning of the match; use a couple other moves and bam it's fresh again?


All in all pretty cool~


tfw edgy is spelt wrong

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

I never really understood this. I think you would do over 9 of Pit's moves again to make it unstale at kill percents, mostly because usmash is in the second slot.


Wouldn't people just use it at the beginning of the match; use a couple other moves and bam it's fresh again?

Depends, lightweights die pretty early, so sometimes it's best not to risk it. Not to mention d-throw to d-air to n-air does more damage. And on heavyweights and fastfallers it's better to do f-throw to dash attack because it's guaranteed and has more potential for follow-ups. But d-throw upsmash isn't bad by any mean it's still decent.

All in all pretty cool~

Thanks
(◠﹏◠✿)

tfw edgy is spelt wrong

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

Alright, I've gotten every character (that's out) on this list. I'm most likely going to go lab some more on a few entries, namely and a few others. What are your thoughts TMNTSSB4 , @Xacer, Koiba U useredsa ?

Also @Wintropy I think the spreadsheet (while unfinished) is useful matchup knowledge, could you add it to the OP of the match up thread? Please and Thank you

 

[useredsa]

(so anything involving dash attack won't be on this list)

But doesn't one of the hitboxes of da combo? the closer one to you.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

But doesn't one of the hitboxes of da combo? the closer one to you.

Hmm, I've never gotten Dash attack to true combo into anything. I'll give it another shot next weekend when I have more time to lab with it.

 

[CHOMPY]

Have you tested this on actual players? Because the throw follow ups can all depend on their DI.

Still fantastic work!

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

Have you tested this on actual players? Because the throw follow ups can all depend on their DI.

Still fantastic work!

Thanks, unfortunately I haven't tested this on real players. Something else i'll be sure to consider when labbing next weekend.

 

[CHOMPY]

Also, another thing I want to ask you to do is group the characters by height and weight as well as including floaty and fast fallers.

I will be sure to put this thread on the Pit Compendium.

http://smashboards.com/threads/thread-directory-read-before-making-a-new-thread.398161/

 

[useredsa]

Thanks, unfortunately I haven't tested this on real players. Something else i'll be sure to consider when labbing next weekend.

That's why I asked people to work together, because I thought we could test all combos with DI and even with staleness.

 

[Dr. Snakes]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Va9GvzFaCZnF4xtyGPScFFJ9gEGaTO-xZDELbBJLe7Y/edit#

I've listed a good amount of potential true combos on my Pit Guide (of course, see the True Combo section).

People underestimate Fthrow at lower percents. It's actually a pretty viable combo throw before 20%. Depending on DI, stuff like Fthrow > Fair/Bair/Nair/UpSmash is possible. After the Fair or Nair, you can even go for the ReGrab. Bthrow is somewhat similar, but does less damage than Fthrow and only slightly more than Dthrow, so you don't see that often.

There are also True Combos from SH Aerials (Nair being the most useful) that we can make use of, as well as setups that aren't true, but can work depending on conditioning and just outright catching people off guard. Examples include Jab > Grab and Jab > Jab > Grab, or Landing Nair > SideB. Should check it out and give me some feedback off the stuff I've found!

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

Alright, I've added data on Bayonetta and Corrin. I've also added data on Up-throw to Up-air, this was tested on level 9 cpus (which have inhuman reaction times) so take it with a grain of salt, but it seems to me like a neat 50-50. What are your thoughts LancerStaff ?

 

[LancerStaff]

Very nice work man. Been a little out of it and hadn't seen this until now... Just wondering how exactly you got this data. Against lvl 9 CPUs in training?

If you decide to organize the list, do it by gravity. http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Gravity Gravity is the attribute with the most influence over how a character is combo'd. Weight makes these windows bigger or smaller, while gravity is the main factor that influences how combos work compared to one another.

I've also added data on Up-throw to Up-air, this was tested on level 9 cpus (which have inhuman reaction times) so take it with a grain of salt, but it seems to me like a neat 50-50. What are your thoughts LancerStaff ?

Well buffering is a thing. Turns the 1 frame window into a 11 frame one. You're probably right about it being a 50-50 though, because due to how buffering works it's difficult to double jump and airdodge perfectly. Don't think it'll see much use because people would probably prefer true combos.

Also Bthrow > DA true combos on Falcon at 0% IIRC, though that's according to the Training counter. Combos with Bthrow will be all over the place because the frame data of the throw changes depending on the weight of the opponent. If it's real we have true combos out of all our throws, lol.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

Very nice work man. Been a little out of it and hadn't seen this until now... Just wondering how exactly you got this data. Against lvl 9 CPUs in training?

If you decide to organize the list, do it by gravity. http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Gravity Gravity is the attribute with the most influence over how a character is combo'd. Weight makes these windows bigger or smaller, while gravity is the main factor that influences how combos work compared to one another.



Well buffering is a thing. Turns the 1 frame window into a 11 frame one. You're probably right about it being a 50-50 though, because due to how buffering works it's difficult to double jump and airdodge perfectly. Don't think it'll see much use because people would probably prefer true combos.

Also Bthrow > DA true combos on Falcon at 0% IIRC, though that's according to the Training counter. Combos with Bthrow will be all over the place because the frame data of the throw changes depending on the weight of the opponent. If it's real we have true combos out of all our throws, lol.

Thanks, that's something else I'll have to look into, though I plan on covering dash attack and f-throw before I cover b-throw. Not sure when I plan to cover character properties though. I might include gravity, I might not. I remember one time when I was fighting a falco player, I was close to the ledge (and I was facing it) so I improvised and b-throw-DAed instead, I was surprised it combed. I haven't really looked far into it though. Does character height factor into comboing? I noticed has pretty low gravity despite him being easy to combo, same with . Then again, has pretty small combo percent windows despite having high gravity and being very tall.

 

[LancerStaff]

Thanks, that's something else I'll have to look into, though I plan on covering dash attack and f-throw before I cover b-throw. Not sure when I plan to cover character properties though. I might include gravity, I might not. I remember one time when I was fighting a falco player, I was close to the ledge (and I was facing it) so I improvised and b-throw-DAed instead, I was surprised it combed. I haven't really looked far into it though. Does character height factor into comboing? I noticed has pretty low gravity despite him being easy to combo, same with . Then again, has pretty small combo percent windows despite having high gravity and being very tall.

Size and tumble shape can effect combos too, along with a bunch of other factors. I think the combo counter or w/e is causing some of these outliers though.

 

[LancerStaff]

Thought I'd leave this here since it seemed to be the most relevant place. I'll be editing this a bit...

Pit's Fsmash can fail to connect in certain conditions. Against Dorf the tip of Fsmash 1 doesn't lead into Fsmash 2 at 120% rage, and at 130% it won't work at all against a grounded Dorf. Also doesn't work on: DDD Certain characters can SDI out with enough rage, such as Link. Jigglypuff, Bayonetta can also SDI out.

 

[LancerStaff]

Since mobile can be a pain I'm going to make a separate post for this. (Note to self: edit in other Fsmash notes.)

DP sour Ftilt forced tech chase %s, training no DI ect. Organized by gravity.

Spoiler

Fox 60%-98%
Diddy 65%-98%
Pika 60%-76%
Mario 67%-81%
Pit 67%-79%
Ness 66%-73%
Luigi 67%-73%
Rosa 60%-64%
Puff 56%-lol

 

[Scruffy_Scoundrel]

This seems like the place to put this. At low% (starting at 0%) pit can dash attack into footstool. This works better against characters with poor aerial mobility ( I've gotten this to work the most on diddy) I'm still labbing followups but i figured I'd share the setup.