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Collapse of America

Venus of the Desert Bloom

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Do you think America are on the verge of collapse? Socially? Economically? Culturally? Or a mix of those? Are we looking at America the same way Romans were looking at Rome during her collapse? Experts are saying that the US will enter into a recession with some coining it a “soft landing” which means that it will be a mild recession without any negative repercussions while some are saying it will be the near total collapse of society and will devastate the global power structure. It’s easy easy to get overwhelmed and to feel panicked by it.
 

Sucumbio

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Gam ze ya’avor, "This , too, shall pass" (King Solomon).

“For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen” (2 Corinthians 4:17-18).

God, aka Life or more accurately it's Intelligence as demonstrated by human conduit, has been opining for awhile now.

It's conclusion? There's not enough room on Earth to sustain us. We perceive danger everywhere and are thus perpetually trapped in an endless cycle of violence.

The biblical references are reminders from days long gone that in perspective Life will always continue to thrive. Violence, while resulting in massive casualties is a means to an end by virtue of Life's continued existence. So by increasing the size of our domain beyond Earth, we stabilize perspective on our personal space and the threat level returns to normal allowing for us to stop living in a cycle of perpetual self induced violence. That is the natural course for Humanity. And the one reason why God exists. (Who?)

Ya know. GOD. This Intelligent Life we call ourselves. (Oh... So Human Consciousnesses is God?)

Yep. But don't call it Human Consciousness. Just call it Intelligence.

So, no. America is not on the verge of collapse. It is facing hard times, and everyone is hyperfocal when it comes to threat assessment because the world is still reeling from COVID. But as the wise men say in those few words, it's all good just gotta buckle down and make **** happen. Elon Musk love or hate him prolly gonna be credited with "saving Humanity" but he's just another cog in the wheel that Intelligence needs to complete its mission.

(What's His mission?)

Finding the best piece of pie.
 

kiteinthesky

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Do you think America are on the verge of collapse? Socially? Economically? Culturally? Or a mix of those? Are we looking at America the same way Romans were looking at Rome during her collapse? Experts are saying that the US will enter into a recession with some coining it a “soft landing” which means that it will be a mild recession without any negative repercussions while some are saying it will be the near total collapse of society and will devastate the global power structure. It’s easy easy to get overwhelmed and to feel panicked by it.
Ohh, yes it is, and it's been on a slow decline for the past 50+ years. We're just now seeing it happen quickly and impactfully enough for it to affect people's personal lives which is why Americans are finally speaking out about it now.

We rejected education, knowledge, science and learning in general and it destroyed us.
 

Sucumbio

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[For] the past 50+ years... [we] rejected education, knowledge, science and learning in general and it destroyed us.
I am from this generation and did none of that. We aren't the last generation. We're the First generation. So long as we cling to the past we're doomed. We must only look forward and be patient. The solution will present itself and ten to one odds it'll be ultimately the wrong decision. And yet we'll still somehow carry on. Again and again.
 

Nah

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I don't really expect this country to "collapse" in the sense that various older empires have collapsed, but rather become the absolute ****ing waking nightmare it was always going to be. Or perhaps, for people to finally realize that the U.S. (and really the whole world) is and always has been an absolutely ****ing waking nightmare and is just simply getting more and more overt about it.
 

#HBC | Acrostic

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Okay. Let's do this. I refuse to quote anybody because it takes up too much space. But I have read all these wonderful paragraphs of commentary.

kiteinthesky kiteinthesky Slow decline for the past 50+ years. Are you talking about 50 years ago ergo 1970s the era of bell bottoms and disco where Pinochet rose to power, the advent of the Arab-Israeli conflict, the rise of Margaret Thatcher, the US being taken off the gold standard, the Equal Employment Opportunity Act of 1972 following major civil rights developments in 1965 like the Voting Rights Act and the Immigration Act which was perhaps the first substantial piece of legislation passed in Congress that attempted to genuinely encourage asian immigration since the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882. Or are we talking about 500 years ago in the 1500s - 1600s when Portugal, Spain, England, and France established the African slave trade and the start of tobacco plantations in South America? There's a pretty broad metric of development when you throw in that plus sign along every single category of education, knowledge, science, and learning when it concerns the United States. I mean objectively we've come a long way technologically since the invention of the first personal computer, the Altair in 1974 which I consider to be a progress in all four of the aforementioned categories just considering the developments we've made in concern to the internet, broadband, information sharing, and the actual technology in and of itself. Again it's very hard to pinpoint the gist of the point based on your current post.

Nah Nah Is there a way for you to paint how life in America is this absolute ****ing waking nightmare. Because, I'm not in disagreement with you. Sartre like existentialism is a pretty close analog to my current views on life with respect to the meaning of life e.g. there is no meaning in life, so it's up to us to make one up. However, I think that the nuance in which a nightmare presents itself can vary drastically from person to person and in explaining more on this nightmare that you can provide insight into your view of the United States.

Sucumbio Sucumbio It's always interesting to see someone's modern riff doing a cover of Second Corinthians in which Paul is addressing the Church of Corinth for failing to understand the essence of Christianity during his absence and then spinning off into their version of a spiritual punk Christian death cover featuring Freud's Death Drive with Robert in the passenger seat playing some Malthusian Death Metal, some Plato like hits on the relationship between God and the Theory of Forms, and this idea of Elon Musk being some form of representation of salvation if we are to branch off your idea that intelligence can be roughly correlated to the embodiment of a higher power (Platonic notion of ideas that transcend both space and time).

 
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Sucumbio

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Sucumbio Sucumbio It's always interesting ...
Yes! And ... No. Sigh. The universe has better things to be doing than fretting. These splotches of Life throughout the Cosmos may one day unite but in the meantime we are literally still going through our growing pains (if you take concentrated Life like Earth as a single biological entity and as an aside potentially connected to other Worlds' Life etc). Blah.

So yeah ... But the problem in America is not everyone thinks like America including most Americans lol. So to stay more on topic I will... shrink the scope of my take to simply say, again, that no America isn't doomed. But these times will indeed be difficult. Unlike the bustling eras of the Industrial Revolution, or the Gold Rush, or post WWII,... Things are actually changing globally that hurt everyone at once in some way or another and it's piling up. Maybe WWII really was that damaging. I can't ignore the possibilities that lighting miniature suns on Earth if even for only microseconds when put together isn't something totally benign. Climate Change may well see
Humanity plunged underground for us to transform into Dark City x The Dark Night Rises .. things.
 

Nah

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Nah Nah Is there a way for you to paint how life in America is this absolute ****ing waking nightmare. Because, I'm not in disagreement with you. Sartre like existentialism is a pretty close analog to my current views on life with respect to the meaning of life e.g. there is no meaning in life, so it's up to us to make one up. However, I think that the nuance in which a nightmare presents itself can vary drastically from person to person and in explaining more on this nightmare that you can provide insight into your view of the United States.
I don't know if I will be able to adequately put it into words, but....

Many of the problems that exist within the US and across the world aren't new. The rich ****ting on the poor, racism, xenophobia, capitalism being a blight on this world, homophobia, transphobia, etc., are all thousands of years old. The only "new" problems we face are impending climate disaster and the threat of nuclear annihilation. People like to think progress has been made on these fronts, but really what's happened over time is that the form they take has changed, to grant the illusion that things are better when they aren't.

The US in particular tends to double down on its **** and have ass-backwards priorities.
A bunch of little kids get ****ing murdered for the umpteenth time, yet it's just thoughts and prayers again and "gotta ban drag shows!".
Huge numbers of people struggle to make ends meet year after year, yet it's ok for certain people to hoard more wealth than a person could ever need and use said wealth to further increase their ridiculous wealth, or waste it on vanity projects like riding giant dildos to the edge of space. You don't become a billionaire by giving a ****ing **** about other people.
People protesting against the discrimination of marginalized peoples are often viewed as un-American thugs, yet violent white supremacists are just guys exercising their First Amendment rights.
It's "my body my choice" when it comes to life-saving vaccines where your choice affects other people, yet is not so when it comes to abortion.
Christians think that they're being persecuted (when they're not) and that "America is a Christian nation!", yet persecute others (LGBTQ people in particular) and if they knew a lick of early American history they'd know why it's not or was not intended to be a Christian nation.
And so on.

Some people like to think that it's just been in the past handful of years that the US has been getting worse, but fail to see that a lot of what we see today is a product decades, centuries, even milennia in the making. Donald Trump is merely a symptom and a product of America's long-standing issues, even if one that has done damage in his own way, but is not a root cause of what we see today, for example.

We don't have any political parties worth voting for in the US. Conservatism has never done the world any favors, and the GOP has been moving further and further to the right over the years, to the point where it's now borderline fascist and will likely become full-on, unapologetically fascist sometime this decade. The Democrats are simply their centrist enablers who, even when they have a real majority, can't bring themselves to do the things we need and deserve. The fact that these two parties have long swallowed up like 95+% of the votes in this country is by itself why voting for the Green Party is the poster child for a throwaway vote. Meanwhile Libertarians are just conservatives hyper-focusing on one aspect of conservatism ("small government") while trying to pretend they're a different ideology, and the new People's Party will never gain any real traction in a country that has always skewed to the political right, and even if it somehow does, there will be a bipartisan effort by the establishment to crush it.

We don't live in a world anymore where discussion/debate, elections, and protest have any meaningful ability to generate real, positive change.
Discussions don't work because you can explain it to someone like they're 5, put out any array of evidence that unequivocally proves they're wrong, and at the end of the day it's still "no i'm right and ur wrong!!!1!!11!". I have been participating in political discussions for far too long to continue to believe that it is possible to change the minds for the better of a meaningful and net-positive number of people. We're talking about a country where, two and half years later, millions of people still believe a baseless lie that the 2020 presidential election was stolen, where a guy legit wrote a ****ing ~180 page essay on why the racist, usually anti-Semitic, and sometimes anti-LGBTQ "great replacement" conspiracy theory is true and a justification for mass murder. People like this are too far gone to talk any sense into.
Elections don't work for reasons above--we're trapped in a never ending cycle of voting for two ****ty political parties.
Protests don't work because they don't force elected officials to do anything. In the past perhaps they had use, since they could make known that people don't like something or want something changed, in the days before the internet was a (widespread) thing. But these days they have lost that ability, you have to be living under a rock to not have any idea about the views on political issues in the US.

If anyone wasn't aware that the **** is hitting the fan, it'll become more apparent soon, unless you are part of the far-right. Roe v. Wade is going to be undone sometime in the next couple of weeks, giving the far-right an easy to follow guide on getting whatever bull**** they want made national law--just pass it in your conservative state legislatures, wait for one of them to be challenged all the way up to the SCOTUS where you're nearly guaranteed to win, profit.

And it's not just the US that is awful, it's many other countries too. There's ones that have never sounded great (like Russia/China/N.Korea), ones that seem to be backsliding as of late (the UK/France), ones that are still struggling to recover from being exploited by western--particularly American--imperialism (most of Central+South America/most of Africa/some of the Middle East). Then the ones remaining....are they really good enough, or just less worse? What does it matter if they are in an interconnected world?

Hope does not exist in this world.
People want to to believe that hope exists for the imperialist plutocracy masquerading as a democratic republic that has shown it is that time and time again that is the United States (or any other country really). But that is because the human psyche in most people will do whatever it takes, no matter how delusional it is, to feel like there is hope--to avoid the suffering that reality is.


....

I am aware that this is a long and only semi-coherent post, and maybe could've still touched on more, so if anyone wants clarification or elaboration on any part, feel free to ask
 

#HBC | Acrostic

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We don't live in a world anymore where discussion/debate, elections, and protest have any meaningful ability to generate real, positive change. Discussions don't work because you can explain it to someone like they're 5, put out any array of evidence that unequivocally proves they're wrong, and at the end of the day it's still "no i'm right and ur wrong!!!1!!11!". I have been participating in political discussions for far too long to continue to believe that it is possible to change the minds for the better of a meaningful and net-positive number of people. We're talking about a country where, two and half years later, millions of people still believe a baseless lie that the 2020 presidential election was stolen, where a guy legit wrote a ****ing ~180 page essay on why the racist, usually anti-Semitic, and sometimes anti-LGBTQ "great replacement" conspiracy theory is true and a justification for mass murder. People like this are too far gone to talk any sense into. Elections don't work for reasons above--we're trapped in a never ending cycle of voting for two ****ty political parties. Protests don't work because they don't force elected officials to do anything. In the past perhaps they had use, since they could make known that people don't like something or want something changed, in the days before the internet was a (widespread) thing. But these days they have lost that ability, you have to be living under a rock to not have any idea about the views on political issues in the US.
Yeah. I'm not sure if you're going to leave with anything real or positive at the end of this conversation. However, I think that with most things in life, that wholly depends on the framing device that you use when it comes to life. I would argue that in these conversations that context is important, so to be blatantly honest I would like to address that the posts so far have little to nothing to do about America. The notion of projection in psychology stipulates a phenomenon in which humans tend to err in the sense that they attribute personal conflict to another event without being aware they are doing it. For instance, let's address the stance that America is locked into a bipartisan system in which issues like homophobia, racism, and socioeconomic inequality are never addressed. Have you felt disappointed in the two party system and felt like you wished you weren't forced into a compromised dichotomy when it came to voting? Are you disappointed by the lack of progress in social equality? Are there changes that you feel that are not being implemented?

It is important to make this abstraction in defining how your own moral and political philosophy may be coloring your view on America, because there is no objective format in which anyone can provide meaningful commentary due to the size, scale, and breadth of the United States of America. It should be noted that even Albert Maltz and Frank Sinatra in their short ten minute film touching upon the fact that all races and all religions are part of an esoteric understanding of America itself ran with the title, "The House I Live In" even though the most notable lyrics that people remember asks the question, "What is America to Me?" Real, positive discourse needs to start with the idea that anything anyone types regarding America is an abstraction of feelings that we likely see and deal with on a regular basis as Americans. This is not to say that those feelings are meaningless. But it is important to note that addressing the topic of America as if we are objective arbiters is fundamentally disingenuous. This commentary is not to deny the importance of issues like homophobia, racism, and socioeconomic disparity. However, failing to interject our own identity into these conversations makes discourse meaningless as genuine conversation should not be about points, but about people.

I will confess that I love getting into the pig trough and covering myself in feces and excrement. However, I think that it's far too easy to adopt the narrative that America is a bygone nation, past its prime, in late stage capitalism, number one in incarceration rate, the country with the highest socioeconomic disparity, and a country at war with itself. The issue I have with rolling off these cons is that they are all meaningless ad-libs that roll off the tongue like a typical segment in Fox News. I am curious why we find ourselves when discussing human rights omitting points like Obergefell v. Hodges (2015) from discourse and instead highlight the vast shadow that was cast by Baker vs. Nelson (1971). I wonder why when we mention PRISM and the NSA we omit the patriotism of Snowden in jeopardizing his entire life and his identity in order to expose the truth to the American public. Or why no one congratulates the bravery for the engineers and higher up officials who leaked the Deepwater Horizon spill which was believed to be the largest oil spill in history until watchdogs who were monitoring the site found out that for sixteen years the Taylor Oil spill had been occurring in the Gulf of Mexico with no action on the part of the US Coast Guard who had been aware of the spill and had done nothing until the Washington Post broke the story. I think that it is a dishonest narrative when we paint the world as having no heroes. The heroes we endorse in contemporary culture are more so Tyrion Lannister than Julius Axelrod when it comes to a man who was able to overcome severe prejudice and win the Nobel Prize for discovering catecholamines (neurotransmitters). Or when it comes to stories we opt for fables or Old Testament parables like David vs. Goliath over stories like Kearns v. Ford Motor Co. when it comes to an individual fighting against a far bigger enemy who outscales him in every regard. It's easy to see a dystopian world if you omit the notion that protagonists exist in it, it's an even more dystopian if you actually believe that you are the sole protagonist in this narrative.

I am colored by a personal bias as to why I do not see a nightmare or a collapse. Eleven years ago I had been disowned by my parents and kicked out of the house. That day when I reached out to my girlfriend for support, she cut me off and told me that it was over between us and she didn't want to hear it. I went to Home Depot and bought rope so I could self asphyxiate myself into a nearby lake where no one was present because it was pouring rain and I had hoped that I would be in a state where CPR couldn't save me even if medics tried to intervene. I had been told I was worthless for an entire year, so worthless in fact that I couldn't even get a minimum wage job for $7.25 an hour because my applications went ignored and I was enlisted to work in the family business where I was berated for being useless there too for fourteen hours a day. The day that I was kicked out and my girlfriend had cut me down made me realize the truth that I had no one in my life who cared for me and that my life at that time had no meaning. I did not go through with suicide because it was illogical and insensible. And also, it is hard to strangle yourself to death without the assistance of gravity. Perhaps I waste time rejecting this idea of the end because the reasons that other people have listed seem so immaterial and foreign when considering what it felt like to actually consider that the end of something whether it is a person, place, or thing isn't something social, political, or economical. It's just
 
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Sucumbio

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I am colored by a personal bias as to why I do not see a nightmare or a collapse. Eleven years ago I had been disowned by my parents and kicked out of the house. That day when I reached out to my girlfriend for support, she cut me off and told me that it was over between us and she didn't want to hear it. I went to Home Depot and bought rope so I could self asphyxiate myself into a nearby lake where no one was present because it was pouring rain and I had hoped that I would be in a state where CPR couldn't save me even if medics tried to intervene. I had been told I was worthless for an entire year, so worthless in fact that I couldn't even get a minimum wage job for $7.25 an hour because my applications went ignored and I was enlisted to work in the family business where I was berated for being useless there too for fourteen hours a day. The day that I was kicked out and my girlfriend had cut me down made me realize the truth that I had no one in my life who cared for me and that my life at that time had no meaning. I did not go through with suicide because it was illogical and insensible. And also, it is hard to strangle yourself to death without the assistance of gravity. Perhaps I waste time rejecting this idea of the end because the reasons that other people have listed seem so immaterial and foreign when considering what it felt like to actually consider that the end of something whether it is a person, place, or thing isn't something social, political, or economical. It's just
Yikes, this sounds like a really rough experience, I'm glad you're still with us. What steps did you take to overcome your situation? I assume you're doing much better now.

Ah, Indeed the "State of the Union" is oft a reflection of our own personal state of being. Even as I type this people in the US right now are bearing their teeth as they pump 5 dollar a gallon gas. Perspective is important sure but we cannot forget just how self absorbed living is. When people die from police violence (or any violence really) if it's not happening directly to you, it's just The News. When it happens to you it's the end of the world as we know it.
 

Venus of the Desert Bloom

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It’s easy to get caught up in the hyperbole of the situation. I bring this up because I was chatting with someone I know. Not a friend per say but an acquaintance I know only due to his kids being friends with my kids. And that connection was only stemmed from a chance meeting at the park. Anyways, we got to chatting and, by a rule, I always steer away from politics because I know my views will often offend most people I come in contact with; especially given where I live. This guy eventually would spin our conversation about good places to eat to the rising gas prices and the cost of living. I wished to avoid this topic altogether but he forced our discussion into it. He started going on how he was amassing his finances and removing it from the banks as they will be collapsing by the end of the summer. In addition to that, stockpiling of ammunition, firearms, resources, reinforcing his homestead as he called it, and becoming more self-sustained for what he called an impending collapse of society itself. He asked if I prepared anything and flat out told him no because I don’t think something like that will happen and, even it did, I’m not in a state to be able to do that. He tried to prod further as to why and I don’t feel comfortable telling him that my life is fairly fragile with moving, being outside of America for 10 years, in the middle of jobs, and working dead-end jobs just to keep us afloat until my job kicks back in again in August. Not to mention we have financial issues and my wife doesn’t understand English well and never lived in America. She doesn’t understand all this stuff about collapse as she was brought up as “america is the land of plenty”.

If I had been here for a couple of years earlier, I would of been ok I think but having just moved back after ten years of absence and a job that will terminate me at the drop of a hat - especially if the economy goes south. Well, it has me concerned for my family and I. Really our best option should relocate and economy collapse is to relocate back to overseas but an American collapse would probably be felt there too. I just don’t get into the hyperbole though as I feel that the current situation will resolve itself overtime.
 

Sucumbio

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It’s easy to get caught up in the hyperbole of the situation. I bring this up because I was chatting with someone I know. Not a friend per say but an acquaintance I know only due to his kids being friends with my kids. And that connection was only stemmed from a chance meeting at the park. Anyways, we got to chatting and, by a rule, I always steer away from politics because I know my views will often offend most people I come in contact with; especially given where I live. This guy eventually would spin our conversation about good places to eat to the rising gas prices and the cost of living. I wished to avoid this topic altogether but he forced our discussion into it. He started going on how he was amassing his finances and removing it from the banks as they will be collapsing by the end of the summer. In addition to that, stockpiling of ammunition, firearms, resources, reinforcing his homestead as he called it, and becoming more self-sustained for what he called an impending collapse of society itself. He asked if I prepared anything and flat out told him no because I don’t think something like that will happen and, even it did, I’m not in a state to be able to do that. He tried to prod further as to why and I don’t feel comfortable telling him that my life is fairly fragile with moving, being outside of America for 10 years, in the middle of jobs, and working dead-end jobs just to keep us afloat until my job kicks back in again in August. Not to mention we have financial issues and my wife doesn’t understand English well and never lived in America. She doesn’t understand all this stuff about collapse as she was brought up as “america is the land of plenty”.

If I had been here for a couple of years earlier, I would of been ok I think but having just moved back after ten years of absence and a job that will terminate me at the drop of a hat - especially if the economy goes south. Well, it has me concerned for my family and I. Really our best option should relocate and economy collapse is to relocate back to overseas but an American collapse would probably be felt there too. I just don’t get into the hyperbole though as I feel that the current situation will resolve itself overtime.
It will but that is exactly what life is like in 'Murrica.

1 white cisgender male breadwinner 1 white cisgender female housewife 2 or more cis binary offspring in school and y'all go to church on Sunday and mow the lawn or wash your car. The wife shops during the week while kids are in school and watches TV while dinner cooks and the kids return from School and Dad comes home and you eat in comfortable silence until Dad speaks.

Any deviation from that results in "America" becoming america-minus. Minus something ... Scapegoat away! Because obviously the actual makeup of US inhabitants is like 2 percent that now lol the 50s is dead, the 60s is dead the 70s 80s 90s .... So many people born after 9 eleven.

So where is the connection? Well...

For anyone who did not fit the mold like my family and myself also, it's been typical. We have been trained to live way beyond our means so the economy in the US is geared toward having LOTS of help.

This help comes in many forms.

Being the right color

Saying the right thing at a random Park

Having an Inheritance

Having a strong support structure

(As in access to others who understand your financial situation and can help you act accordingly)

The fewer of these you can say for yourself in a given situation the more difficult the situation will be to navigate.

But Life is uncanny and like had been shared in this discussion choosing life is its own reward.
 

StoicPhantom

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Experts are saying that the US will enter into a recession with some coining it a “soft landing” which means that it will be a mild recession without any negative repercussions
This is pretty much always a panic signal tbqh.

The problem here is rising inflation thanks to the destruction of the global supply chain and the war in Ukraine (namely the sanctions on Russia backfiring horribly) with a smattering of other factors. Things like food and oil are in constrained supply causing a spike in prices as well certain minerals such as phosphorous getting low and causing issues. The federal reserve is trying to combat this by raising interest rates in order to suppress demand with the theory being reduced demand will lower the higher prices and balance out inflation.

Except it doesn't make any sense to try and reduce demand when the issue is a lack of supply rather than excessive demand. And people can't really reduce consumption on necessities like food and energy. So what is essentially happening is that the portion of the country that is using credit to get by are being further squeezed by higher interest rates and the portion of the country that lends that debt are effectively getting free money.

In other words, peasants are going to get hit hard by inflation and higher interest rates on any debt they incur trying to weather said inflation and the nobility are getting their money. Credit cards, loans, mortgages, and similar are getting significantly more expensive in an effort to reduce demand.

This is your "soft landing".

Whether or not it will lead to collapse is hard to say. The economy, particularly the global economy, is highly complex and connected in ways that nobody really knows or understands. You can fiddle with one aspect and accidentally blow up another if you don't understand the potential effect one might have on another.

An example of this is what could possibly happen to the highly inflated housing market. If interest rates are going up to suppress demand then you are going to see a drop in demand for houses. A drop in demand is going to put strain on those looking to sell before a potential crash thanks to said drop in demand. If you have a lot of people trying to quickly sell in order to beat an expected crash, but no buyers because of high interest rates and significantly increased costs of living, then you might see a major crash in the housing market.

If you payed off your house already, you might see a major drop in its value if the market crashes. And if it drops below what you paid for it, you are at a loss.

If you currently rely on rents or are highly leveraged on debt in order to pay for your properties, you might end up getting blown to smithereens.

If you are renting, you might see a huge increase in your rent thanks to the former.

I don't know that it is going to get as bad as 2006, but I think there is a good probability that the housing market will crash at least bad enough that the fed will have to step in eventually. I think the policy will eventually be reversed, but probably not before significant damage is done to asset prices.

And this is just one aspect of the economy. The US is an economy that relies heavily on debt and services in order to function even if it does have some diversity. I don't really see how more expensive debt is going to be anything but bad, especially when inflation is on the rise for important household necessities.



Though as far as collapse goes overall, yes I do think American society will collapse and it is only a matter of when at this point. What caused Rome to collapse was a ruling class that was full of greed and incompetence and a similarly greedy and complacent populace that eventually weakened Rome enough for foreign invasion to be possible.

America faces a similar path with rampant imperialism bankrupting the country and a populace that is too blinded by its own sense of superiority to notice. The pathologies sweeping the country has been perverting and twisting its values into conduits for greed and narcissism leading to an incentive to not change the system and the cycle of self-destruction. If the solutions don't facilitate those pathologies and if change requires working with people you don't agree with on everything or that is perceived as a cultural enemy, Americans want no part in it.

Rome built a magnificent coliseum to allow citizens to watch slaves and gladiators tear each other apart physically. America built social media in order to facilitate dopamine hits from people tearing each other apart socially. These decadent activities fuel violence and hate in order for the warrior societies to continue to inspire conflict.

A society where people lost trust in institutions and each other cannot function. People keep mentioning recovering as if America always has bumps that it eventually returns to a median from. That's not true at all and it has become increasingly less true over time.

Economically, the US hasn't recovered from financial crises in a long time. It pretty much continues to dig itself into deeper debt holes and increasingly large bubbles. Even the earlier parts of my post alludes to the fed stepping in to use public money to fund the ponzi scheme known as the housing market. You don't get public money for infrastructure projects or things that generate real productivity because it goes into keeping alive bubbles such as the housing market, military industrial complex, private health insurance, student loan debt, and so on.

This rampant mismanagement of the economy is only sustainable because the dollar is the currently the world's reserve currency. If other countries weren't heavily incentivized to hold our debt, this house of cards would have collapsed a long time ago. However, it seems oil sanctions might have been the last straw and major countries such as China, Russia, and India are currently moving to create their own system that is insulated from the dollar. Europe might have been cucked enough to destroy their energy industry over US political agendas, but others have not been so eager. If they succeed, you can probably kiss US economic dominance goodbye.

Socially, deep cultural divides have only worsened as people have stopped negotiating with each other and are now trying to dominate the other through the judicial branch rather than the legislative branch. Authoritarianism over politics if you will. People now believe they have a divine right to enforce their beliefs without ever needing to consider the circumstances of another due to a self-righteousness that permeates the culture. If some oppose that belief, they aren't just wrong, they are evil. You don't desire to have affordable housing for the poor, you are engaging in an evil plot to steal people's money. You don't have an aversion to potentially killing babies, you want to subjugate women and control their bodies.

This country wasn't conceived as a direct democracy for a reason. The founders correctly recognized that America is made up of very diverse regions that might as well be different countries. It is fundamentally impossible for these regions to move as one when they are so economically and culturally different. The circumstances they are affected by and what they need to survive are different than each other.

Tolerance and an attempt to understand the needs of the other is the core fundamental part of socializing and is absolutely vital for America to not tear itself apart. Instead, there is a major trend towards making a homogeneous monoculture that is clearly not going well and only making things worse. And it will continue to get worse as Americans use more oppressive tactics to force that kind of change. Rather than acknowledge everybody has differences, the various factions in the country are trying to force one particular brand of ethnic nationalism over the other.

The country is completely broken from top to bottom. Broken in the sense that it is not progressing, or even stagnating, but actively declining. Americans have been hardcore coping by attempting to compartmentalize the issues of a dysfunctional system as being caused by one particular entity (the rich/bureaucracy/business/whites/non-whites/"the other side"/etc), but it really is a society-wide failure. If you're an American, the problem is you.

It's not that we can't pull ourselves back from the brink, but that we simply refuse to. The pathologies that collapse societies ultimately willfully blind them from that collapse. From Rome to Yugoslavia, collapsing societies always insist that there is nothing wrong right to the very end. And America is heading towards the same cliff for the same reasons. History isn't society progressing a little at a time, but an endless series of cycles. And America is trapped in one of those cycles.

The collapse might not happen with this current recession, but it is in the cards. It could be in a few years or a few decades, but it will happen without a major change in the way Americans act and think about the world.
 

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As an American, I can safely say that we'd sooner Nuke Everything than allow The Republic to fail. Not great obviously lol but assured. It'd take that to do away... with the US of A.
 

Venus of the Desert Bloom

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I’ve been doing some thinking and reading over this subject and it’s my opinion that while America could potentially benefit from a “collapse”, it’s not going to happen like what we see in popular media and films. I honestly don’t see a collapse of society. People are too attached to the conveniences of the modern day to be willing to them go. There will be a breaking point in society where it gets bad enough to the point where the only way is up. Having kids and taking them to play areas, I often find parents so self absorbed in their own affairs that they never engage with them. Parents making Tiktoks with other parents or the one Instagram selfie with their own kids and then proceeds to ignore. If this is taken away from this small demographic of people (a place to take kids to, social media, distractions), I feel that enough **** will hit the fan to the point that something will be done. Maybe that’s the positivity in me thinking (and I desperately need more positivity in my life).

Now, if things to go south and continue to go south in a very bad way, I’m more than prepared to send the family back to my wife’s home country while I settle things here before moving back as well.
 

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I think we're very fortunate in the United States. As bad as some people have it, it's far worse in other countries. The "Third World" is where you find conditions even our own city homeless population would avoid. If it's not active military conflict, then famine, rampant disease, no clean water or running electricity. Our poorest communities live well by comparison. Our Native lands see these types of conditions which is a shame. And obviously the adventurous among us can choose to live as rustic as they please.

Honestly what causes the collapse of a civilization like ours is some sort of global catastrophe. "What about COVID, Suco?" Nah. We adapted we learned and continue to learn. A civilization ending event is one where the population cannot adapt to it. It is something akin to a Meteor strike, or other insane act of Nature that obliterates Humanity. Barring this "modern man" which in terms of society and culture is everyone going back to 40,000 bc or so is here to stay. And because our genetic diversity has led to a population of several billion specimens, you'll find that the majority of these tend to fall under the same umbrella of survival instincts. Keep close to home for some things, venture out into groups to accomplish other things. In other words as by pure biology we are mammals and thus our instinctual behavior revealed.

It's true there are 2 actual "man-made" events that could precipitate our annihilation. These would of course be Climate Change induced natural disaster or Global Nuclear War. I don't honestly believe the nukes will ever fly because no human has yet to become as such a threat since they were last used including Putin. It's just not worth it...

climate tho? Dude this is actually a legit fear of mine and should be of anyone else that can read. The science involved is still very new obviously but the observational Data is painting a very serious picture of what happens when you take Earth and light a toxic fire the size of Mount Everest and let it burn. Just like with your own body the whole system reacts. We're going to have to concentrate on two things. Surviving the coming centuries and developing ways to leave here just in case the planet becomes uninhabitable.
 

Quillion

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I just want to say: while Americans (and other Westerners) have justifiably looked down upon censorship to maintain authoritarian power in places like China and Russia, I think this big feud between trying to control misinformation and leaving free speech be has revealed a great weakness of the Western ideal of free speech.

Maintaining free speech has AFAIK been presupposed on the idea that everyone can figure out the truth for themselves. But that just isn't entirely true.
 

Venus of the Desert Bloom

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I think we're very fortunate in the United States. As bad as some people have it, it's far worse in other countries. The "Third World" is where you find conditions even our own city homeless population would avoid. If it's not active military conflict, then famine, rampant disease, no clean water or running electricity. Our poorest communities live well by comparison. Our Native lands see these types of conditions which is a shame. And obviously the adventurous among us can choose to live as rustic as they please.

Honestly what causes the collapse of a civilization like ours is some sort of global catastrophe. "What about COVID, Suco?" Nah. We adapted we learned and continue to learn. A civilization ending event is one where the population cannot adapt to it. It is something akin to a Meteor strike, or other insane act of Nature that obliterates Humanity. Barring this "modern man" which in terms of society and culture is everyone going back to 40,000 bc or so is here to stay. And because our genetic diversity has led to a population of several billion specimens, you'll find that the majority of these tend to fall under the same umbrella of survival instincts. Keep close to home for some things, venture out into groups to accomplish other things. In other words as by pure biology we are mammals and thus our instinctual behavior revealed.

It's true there are 2 actual "man-made" events that could precipitate our annihilation. These would of course be Climate Change induced natural disaster or Global Nuclear War. I don't honestly believe the nukes will ever fly because no human has yet to become as such a threat since they were last used including Putin. It's just not worth it...

climate tho? Dude this is actually a legit fear of mine and should be of anyone else that can read. The science involved is still very new obviously but the observational Data is painting a very serious picture of what happens when you take Earth and light a toxic fire the size of Mount Everest and let it burn. Just like with your own body the whole system reacts. We're going to have to concentrate on two things. Surviving the coming centuries and developing ways to leave here just in case the planet becomes uninhabitable.
Super off topic but whenever I get depressed about how things have panned out….I watch this
Even our prison systems have it better than many in the world.
 

#HBC | Acrostic

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I’ve been doing some thinking and reading over this subject and it’s my opinion that while America could potentially benefit from a “collapse”, it’s not going to happen like what we see in popular media and films. I honestly don’t see a collapse of society. People are too attached to the conveniences of the modern day to be willing to them go. There will be a breaking point in society where it gets bad enough to the point where the only way is up. Having kids and taking them to play areas, I often find parents so self absorbed in their own affairs that they never engage with them. Parents making Tiktoks with other parents or the one Instagram selfie with their own kids and then proceeds to ignore. If this is taken away from this small demographic of people (a place to take kids to, social media, distractions), I feel that enough **** will hit the fan to the point that something will be done. Maybe that’s the positivity in me thinking (and I desperately need more positivity in my life). Now, if things to go south and continue to go south in a very bad way, I’m more than prepared to send the family back to my wife’s home country while I settle things here before moving back as well.
Spinning off your comment, I think that there is an eroded sense of identity, meaning, and purpose which is why there is so much placation from convenience devices like phones and apps like Tiktok. In place of institutions like Church which according to a Barna group survey on church attendance saw no difference between the pandemic year of 2020 versus 2019, people overindulge in forming an online identity shaped by apps like Twitter and Tiktok. I think the fanaticism with people and things like guns are because people can no longer afford a home, afford to have children, or afford healthcare so we placate people with trinkets symbolizing power like a semi-automatic in order to give them a sense of agency in a senseless world even if they are running behind on their mortgage, child support, and debt related bills. I think that free apps like TikTok, Discord, and Youtube also placate the masses by making people believe they are interconnected to a bigger network of individuals, but once you start introducing higher and higher paywalls you start isolating people because they begin to realize that they are attached to something that is not integral to their well being.

S StoicPhantom Nice post. There's a nice irony to you pointing out cultural divide and tolerance. I still don't understand how the problem is me though when you pointed out global supply chain factors, institutional developments, and everything else. This sense of call to action on the part of individuals is fundamentally disingenuous, I'm assuming you like to use it as a motif in every post unnecessarily. Maybe it's a projection for your own sense of failure in participating in a meaningful way? It's hard to pin you down, you're one of the most disingenuous posters I have seen in a long time. It's hard to peg down whether you use it because you actually feel like you can make drive by assertions on a general demographic. But it's not the first time you've gone on to form character profiles of demographics and individuals unnecessarily and then spun off from there to go into a self indulgent tangent afterwards. Very curious.
 

Sucumbio

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Spinning off your comment, I think that there is an eroded sense of identity, meaning, and purpose which is why there is so much placation from convenience devices like phones and apps like Tiktok. In place of institutions like Church which according to a Barna group survey on church attendance saw no difference between the pandemic year of 2020 versus 2019, people overindulge in forming an online identity shaped by apps like Twitter and Tiktok. I think the fanaticism with people and things like guns are because people can no longer afford a home, afford to have children, or afford healthcare so we placate people with trinkets symbolizing power like a semi-automatic in order to give them a sense of agency in a senseless world even if they are running behind on their mortgage, child support, and debt related bills. I think that free apps like TikTok, Discord, and Youtube also placate the masses by making people believe they are interconnected to a bigger network of individuals, but once you start introducing higher and higher paywalls you start isolating people because they begin to realize that they are attached to something that is not integral to their well being.
I feel you on this. I think by this point there's no separating the masses from the internet so yes, trinkets but "necessary" ones. TikTok is the most recent imho but anyone with a "social media" presence is guilty of feeding the slot a couple bucks in exchange for instant gratification. Myself obviously the Message Board is my need to feed... I can't imagine sitting on apps all day liking and subscribing. But when I looked into it, it really is kind of a ponzi scheme of "likes." All it took was one stupid cat video and my wife went from 0 views to 30k in like 3 days I'm like wtf? Thirty thousand people watched your video of our cat being a cat and liked it and are sharing it? Yes actually. Ha! Crazy.

#HBC | Acrostic #HBC | Acrostic dude lol your point to stoic phantom was cool until you started saying the quiet part out loud. Stahp. Plz.
 

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I feel you on this. I think by this point there's no separating the masses from the internet so yes, trinkets but "necessary" ones. TikTok is the most recent imho but anyone with a "social media" presence is guilty of feeding the slot a couple bucks in exchange for instant gratification. Myself obviously the Message Board is my need to feed... I can't imagine sitting on apps all day liking and subscribing. But when I looked into it, it really is kind of a ponzi scheme of "likes." All it took was one stupid cat video and my wife went from 0 views to 30k in like 3 days I'm like wtf? Thirty thousand people watched your video of our cat being a cat and liked it and are sharing it? Yes actually. Ha! Crazy #HBC | Acrostic #HBC | Acrostic dude lol your point to stoic phantom was cool until you started saying the quiet part out loud. Stahp. Plz.
Sucumbio Sucumbio It was legitimately a really good post, I just don't understand why he keeps throwing in these call to action aphorisms that break the third wall. It almost sounds like its a residual from something, although I can't pinpoint whether it is from some think tank talking point e.g. "And only you can make a difference!" or if it's just some mechanic left over from someone who had worked as a press secretary or some other speech writing field. Because it's uncanny how everything is pretty solid prose until he hits those, "the problem is you" sentences when the guy doesn't even have an audience in mind. This is so frequent it has to have raised some question marks in your mind whether this guy just has been trained to throw those lines in or if he can't help but repeat those zingers verbatim from something outsourced. It's uncanny.
 

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Sucumbio Sucumbio It was legitimately a really good post, I just don't understand why he keeps throwing in these call to action aphorisms that break the third wall. It almost sounds like its a residual from something, although I can't pinpoint whether it is from some think tank talking point e.g. "And only you can make a difference!" or if it's just some mechanic left over from someone who had worked as a press secretary or some other speech writing field. Because it's uncanny how everything is pretty solid prose until he hits those, "the problem is you" sentences when the guy doesn't even have an audience in mind. This is so frequent it has to have raised some question marks in your mind whether this guy just has been trained to throw those lines in or if he can't help but repeat those zingers verbatim from something outsourced. It's uncanny.
I'm too much of a skimmer.

When a person is making a point the most important sentence is the first. After that is some words about why it's true, as in correct. The final thought concludes and so it fulfills the three-sentence paragraph and thus, we have provided a statement, some stuff, and a conclusion.

So when reading, I typically skip the stuff; if someone makes a statement and I agree, that is.

If I disagree, I go to the conclusion while looking for highlighted text (links, bold words, etc.) along the way. If the conclusion does not logically follow from the statement then the entire paragraph can be stored for later use as evidence for the dissenting.

If someone makes a statement that I agree with but they arrive at the wrong conclusion, then I usually take the time to correct them. If they push back I'm not their mother go do your homework and leave me alone lol.

If at any point a discussion remains in contention even after two or three exchanges well, then either I failed at communicating or we're at an impass.

As for ... Style... Eh meh. Whatever lol I'm not offended so I'm not sure anyone else should be either. But that's just me. I think we all have complex social identities and it appears yours don't... mesh.
 

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Sucumbio Sucumbio You're spot on. I hate master debaters and contention andies. Contention groping is utterly pointless if both parties can't concede or scrap so bad that they can't get to an overarching premise/criterion. I also really hate unnecessary parsing of quote by quote systems because it creates unnecessary focus on contentions when no normal conversation involves someone dissecting you point by point over trying to reach commonality. The fact that he compares discourse to winning a game of Smash is pretty surreal to me as well as this idea that he shadow boxes against online comments on a regular basis. I also think that he thinks I'm a lib when I don't have the attention span to even know where I am on the political spectrum on a level by level basis. He's just a completely crazy dude to me since he harassed me in 2019 and I told him to **** off but he still kept quoting me resulting in that sick 21 day suspension after I ad hommed him to get help. Serious comment at the time btw, although misplaced in retrospect. The guy is obviously educated and writes some good prose when he's not doing these weird call outs, but his approach to discourse to me is completely insufferable. There's like 0 human element to the way he treats discourse which drives me crazy. I don't think he gains personal enrichment from the process, but again that could be a biased take from me. I guess there is some profit gain for him, it's just something that I can't comprehend as a simpleton.
 
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StoicPhantom

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I think "collapse" should be taken as a destruction of the social contract and a loss of legitimacy in the ruling bodies rather than a apocalyptic scenario. Plenty of societies have collapsed and rebuilt over history. But while a collapse is Nature's way of dealing with unsustainable systems, we should avoid that scenario as much as possible. It can get very ugly in ways people aren't going to be ready for.

Maintaining free speech has AFAIK been presupposed on the idea that everyone can figure out the truth for themselves. But that just isn't entirely true.
The problem with this line of thinking is that it presupposes an objective truth that will always be held by those with authority. The COVID saga started with the director of the CDC lying to everyone about the efficacy of masks and telling people to just wash their hands. Regardless of the excuses that have been given, lots of people died believing in his authority and doing as he recommended.

There's a major push to centralize the transmission of information around a central authority now, but that central authority (government, MSM, "fact-checkers") still continues to be the largest spreader of misinformation to this day. Quite a lot of people that have been maligned, censored, fired/banned turned out to be correct whereas our "experts" turned out to be wrong. If The Science is always changing, and that's why our experts are allowed to frequently get things wrong whilst still maintaining legitimacy, that illustrates the need for alternate voices in order for one to consider every angle.

You're not wrong that people routinely fail at figuring out the truth, but the problem is that there isn't a real objective source of information when it comes down to it.

This sense of call to action on the part of individuals is fundamentally disingenuous, I'm assuming you like to use it as a motif in every post unnecessarily.
Erm, the first part of my post was talking about the particulars of the "soft landing" and the second part of it was about the idea of America collapsing in general. It wasn't unnecessary so much as it was my genuine response to why I think the country is on the verge of collapse. Those are two separate things. Maybe I should have quoted the individual parts of the OP so as to not brook this kind of confusion.

As for the rest, I think I've made it clear in this and other topics that there is both a system and an individual critique with societal problems. Just like you can't lay blame wholly on the individual you also can't pretend the system is its own entity. The two feed into and influence each other. The latter part of that post described both components and why they continue to push American society closer to collapse.

Back up a bit and consider the first part of my previous post in this topic. What is the global supply chain, why was it created, who created it, and for what purpose? What is the housing market, why is it inflated, who inflated it? And who decides monetary police and to what ends? But perhaps a more succinct question would be to ask why Americans continue to play games they know are rigged against them?

We laugh at the Bitcoin bros for being tricked by internet funny money, but they've had a very good point that traditional currency and asset markets have no real backing either. The tag team of Reagan and Clinton led to the destruction of American manufacturing and other domestic production in order to make greater profits by outsourcing most of domestic production overseas. This benefited finance and corporations greatly, but it also destroyed the Midwestern economy that was primarily based on manufacturing.

So the winners are corporations who can source cheaper labor and materials from other countries (higher margins) and finance who can now lend to foreigners as well. The losers are the Midwestern people who had the rug pulled out from under them and the promises to help them transition to another economic system have gone unfulfilled. Where is finance predominately located? The coastal states. Where was manufacturing most prominent? The so-called flyover states.

What happens to the greater economy when you destroy your domestic production though? We still produce some things, but it is safe to say that we don't produce as much as we used to and rely more on the global supply chain for our production. COVID showed us how fragile this was and effectively destroyed said global supply chain, which is going to have significant consequences for the price of goods going forward. But what about the overall bigger picture?

If you can't rely on tying your economy to the production of goods then the only other route so far has been to base your economy around finance. Meaning that America has become a nation of borrowers and lends that debt to other countries. Things get really complex from here, but think of it like America has become one giant bank that other countries tie their economies to. Other people park their money in American real estate, bonds, and the Dollar itself.

So the current scheme is essentially being one giant lender to the world. And this has the consequence of turning the entire nation into one giant asset market and debt bubble. The housing market is overinflated because that's where a lot of people's money and assets are tied up: from 401Ks to a hedge on inflation (of currency). The country can continue using credit to keep its poor afloat (and continue ignoring fundamental issues) while playing the markets to facilitate "economic growth" in place of real production.

Spotted the problem? The only real means of economic growth comes from assets. The only people that can afford such inflated assets are the already wealthy. Those who are currently trying to play the markets on highly leveraged debt are about to get destroyed in the upcoming market crash. Those financial institutions will get bailed out because they are ultimately the real economy now.

And that's really it. Who decides monetary policy are the financial institutions that are the only real productive entities in the country. The reason why policies are so skewed in their favor is because they want to protect what keeps the economy going period. If you aren't working in finance or some industry that supports finance (academia, politics, software, etc) you are just simply not useful. And if you aren't useful to the real economy, why do you think you should get better wages? Why would you, the person who works bull**** jobs that aren't productive, not be the fall guy in order to protect that which keeps you afloat?

(That was critiquing the system and now I'm moving on to critique the individual within these systems.)

The reality of ordinary people playing the markets is that they are the built-in failsafe when things go south. If asset prices get too inflated, finance and the wealthy will happily sell those dangerously high assets to the commoners to ensure that their money is safely out of a volatile market and the commoners will be left holding the bags. When those commoners sell their hemorrhaging assets in desperation, the wealthy will happily scoop them back up at bargain prices. This ensures that markets can remain relatively stable and predictable so the real economy can be cushioned from volatility in these markets and all those investors will still buy American assets and debt.

Because if they were like Bitcoin, whose value can drop by half in an afternoon, no one would want to park their money in these markets and America would be left high and dry. Most Bitcoiners only have their money in crypto long enough to swindle some fool. The Fed will not bail out those rugged by ****coins, but they will ensure wealthy investors in the real economy will always remain protected. Our economy depends on it.

So why do Americans continue to play games that they know are rigged against them? If the Fed will only bail out finance that means that it is a zero sum game for everyone else. Yes, through smart investment you can rug your fellow commoners and stay relatively stable, but you will never win against the house. You'll make a modest sum with a little luck and a cool head, but you'll never become a real whale. Exactly how is this any different than gambling at your local casino?

The answer is also the reason why we can count on our failsafes to be failsafes. The losers will always capitulate to their greed and fear. We have fancy charts now that illustrate market cycles and even have one that calculates fear and greed levels. We have market science down almost pat, but people still manage to FOMO at the top and capitulate at the bottom. There are only two real principles needed to be successful in asset markets: 1. Buy low, Sell high 2. Don't gamble anything you can't afford to lose. And yet, we still always have people that routinely blow their life savings buying the top. These (most) people are the fall guys for finance and the Fed picks up the rest.

What causes these people to continue to financially ruin themselves? The inherent belief that they are smarter and better than everyone else. That they are just temporarily embarrassed millionaires and will eventually stand at the top looking down on everyone else. That even though so many others have the same idea to get in on these trends, they will be the ones to beat the house. And that's why casinos are so profitable.

The housing market is so inflated and Bitcoin had such a historical run because debt was deliberately made incredibly cheap and all the unemployment and stimulus checks from COVID caused lots of liquidity flow into those markets. I guess people's first thought was to gamble it on get-rich-quick schemes and they're going to pay dearly for it. Bitcoin is winding back down and the Fed is likely about to deliberately collapse the real assets, but no one seems to be any richer.

The system is rigged no doubt, but Americans continue to perpetuate it. Remember the American Dream? Where you were supposed to work hard and invest into homes for your family and all that jazz? Sounds eerily similar to what I just illustrated above, doesn't it? Where do you think the idea for our current system came from? This is all baked into the essence of what America is. It doesn't matter what flavor of American you are, you support the system in some capacity. Not because you have to necessarily, but because you want to.

Proof? Who are going to vote for in the 2024 elections? If your answer is a party, you are part of the problem. If your answer is an incumbent who is currently perpetuating the system, you are part of the problem. If your answer is a former president who didn't do anything about the system, you are part of the problem. Stop voting in people you know to be part of the system.

But that's just the thing. I've been watching this farce play out for the better part of a decade and I can only come to the conclusion that people don't actually want to change the system. Democrats turned Trump into an apocalyptic figure and finally admitted they were going to "vote blue no matter who" in the 2020 election. Not only was the Trump administration fairly standard, but the Biden administration managed to do everything Trump was fearmongered to do: from bringing us to the brink of world war to severely damaging the economy. And they'll line up to vote for him again in two years. Republicans decided to vote for a fraudulent billionaire on the assumption that he's going to clean the political system of... the influence of fraudulent billionaires. Both of them claimed to like Bernie Sanders and agreed with most of what he said, but couldn't vote for him because...reasons.

If we want systemic change we need to have actual action towards it. There being no upward pressure from the people is precisely why they continue to ignore us. But people continue to make up whatever reason they have to in order to keep voting for the status quo. And thus, they continue getting the status quo.


Speaking directly back to you Mr. Acrostic, I'm not really sure where the confusion lies here. I've been very clear that there is two components and one of those components is how Americans continue to perpetuate the status quo. Yet, you seem to take umbrage at pointing out that people can choose to stop supporting terrible systems instead of voting to keep them in every election cycle. Why exactly is it so sacrilegious to point out that people have voting power? It's one thing if you disagree with me, but inventing wacky theories that I'm a former press secretary is something else.


That is Malcolm X basically saying everything I've been saying around here for a while. In fact, I've linked that very video somewhere in the election topic. Part of analyzing the issues that a society can face is examining the culture and mindset of the people. Society is a construct, it's the people that are important.

You can not like me, my tone, or the way I write all you want. What I find bizarre is how angry you get over critiquing cultural mindsets that perpetuate the status quo. That's a fundamental part of talking about societal issues and yet you act like it is a completely alien thing to bring up in a political discussion.
 

Sucumbio

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Lol anyway .
Investment.... Sucks. If come from old money then your life is fine. But if you gamble you could lose so I personally don't.

But... And this is sincerely my take: until technology is able to replace Hard Labor (not labors of love) I see no incentive to jump ship. It's funny but the eur is going to be worth the same as a usd hahaha ah.

The global economy requires everyone shilling for your dollar but at the end of the day unless you need something physically done I see no reason to pay for it. If labor is required then sure. But in the future when physical toil for compensation is not compulsory I imagine a new monetary anchor that of antiques and genuine articles. Imagine a restaurant owner who feeds others because they love sharing the food. A copper each mouth. 10 coppers buy you a Money. I dunno lol it's irrelevant because if you're hungry you can just go to the endless and free Automat 3000™.
 

Quillion

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The problem with this line of thinking is that it presupposes an objective truth that will always be held by those with authority. The COVID saga started with the director of the CDC lying to everyone about the efficacy of masks and telling people to just wash their hands. Regardless of the excuses that have been given, lots of people died believing in his authority and doing as he recommended.

There's a major push to centralize the transmission of information around a central authority now, but that central authority (government, MSM, "fact-checkers") still continues to be the largest spreader of misinformation to this day. Quite a lot of people that have been maligned, censored, fired/banned turned out to be correct whereas our "experts" turned out to be wrong. If The Science is always changing, and that's why our experts are allowed to frequently get things wrong whilst still maintaining legitimacy, that illustrates the need for alternate voices in order for one to consider every angle.

You're not wrong that people routinely fail at figuring out the truth, but the problem is that there isn't a real objective source of information when it comes down to it.
You know, I have been a little frightened lately by the thought that truth and hypothesis don't seem to be as far apart as some might think. That said, I don't think that's an excuse to sow distrust and hostility towards experts.
 

Sucumbio

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I feel like his take leads to the is-ought problem and I'd rather trim my toenails with a chainsaw than visit that again.
 

#HBC | Acrostic

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S StoicPhantom Undoubtedly at the beginning of the outbreak in February/March, NYT articles wrote that Dr. Jerome Adams, surgeon general for PHS tweeted in February/March of 2020:
Adams said:
"Seriously people - STOP BUYING MASKS! They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if healthcare providers can’t get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk!"
CDC did comment in that time period per a Jacksonville news website,
CDC said:
CDC does not recommend that people who are well wear a facemask to protect themselves from respiratory diseases, including COVID-19. Facemasks should be used by people who show symptoms of COVID-19 to help prevent the spread of the disease to others.
Per defense.gov these guidelines were revised in March/April of that month to include social distancing guidelines and advising to wear a mask in public. The assertion on an epidemiological level that lots of people died because of the CDC failing to implement strict mask mandates due to misunderstanding their efficacy is not necessarily true from a comparative health study perspective. South Korea advantaged geographically for being somewhat isolated and also being at the forefront of travel restriction, temperature taking, contact tracing, and COVID testing during the onset of the pandemic saw major spikes in COVID related mortality rates in December of 2021 and March of this year despite it maintaining an 86.2% full vaccination rate among its total population whereas the US is estimated to be around 62.1% for full vaccination per Google. Despite the country's "spike" in mortality cases, South Korea has one of the lowest mortality rates due to COVID globally which is impressive considering its population density in areas like Seoul. I am not bringing up the point to bring into question the efficacy of vaccines or early prevention, but rather point out that I believe it is not appropriate to blame the CDC for mortality rates in the United States as the virus at the time was novel and research is still continuing on it. There also seems to be a misunderstanding. The role of certain bodies within the PHS like the CDC are to, "centralize the transmission of information" when it comes to establishing guidelines and policies on whatever information is current to them at the time. However, their role isn't to be a "real objective source of information". There is a plethora of alternate voices that are not beholden to a central authority if you booted up Google Scholar and wanted to know about immunopathology from scientists in China, a research in progress at Kuwait regarding natural immunity vs vaccinations, or papers about vaccination policy efficacy using mathematical modeling (2021), papers about potential treatments (2020), papers about a current treatment (2020) that are written by scholars that are not endemic or beholden to the central authority of the United States and for people who want to come to their own conclusions about an objective truth.

Trying to find objective truth in the CDC guidelines is like trying to find water in the middle of Australia. It is simply not designed for that purpose. You can search for a Louis Vuitton bag in Walmart, but why go there for that purpose? In addition, much of discovering what is closest to what we would claim to be objective truth in science comes from a general process of experimentation, failure, adaptation, and subsequent further experimentation. Historically coming from the plum pudding model of atomic theory to more complex models like Niehls Bohr, I would like to think that most scientists think of their studies as an approach to objective truth rather than the very thing itself. When we establis a hypothesis, a null hypothesis, and set rejection parameters for instance testing whether let's say introducing an isotope of lead will predispose a rat to be at higher risk for cancer, the scientist themselves establish quantitative parameters likely relating to whether oncogenetic gene transcription is increased using a reverse transcriptase PCR study or perhaps looking at whether house keeping proteins like HSP-70 transcription could be an indicator. However, much the context of the study is divorced from the words used to describe the published results. Science itself is treated by most people to be largely superfluous, rarely do you see newspapers curious about methodology in how scientific inquiries were pursued but rather are more focused on locking into an official who can provide the abstraction, results, and conclusions.

Scientific research into COVID is even more difficult as patients themselves should never be treated like research animals. The limitations of being unable to perform an invitro like study of problems like COVID in hospitals poses severe limitations in research, however studying the process of failure and updating guidelines accordingly are the closest approach to something of a scientific process that hospitals have when it comes to approaching an objective best practice state that is not quite black or white, truth or lies, subjective or objective, or right or wrong. I am aware that you never brought up hospitals themselves as contributing to the CDC lying, however probably threw it in there subconsciously as my sentiment was that healthcare workers were used as guinea pigs for a lot of things such as frequent process changes due to supply shock issues in medical equipment, vaccine administrations, and practice approaches e.g. medication treatments, airway options, and supine/proning timeframes in addition to dealing with an incredibly high volume of people like antivaxxers who are threatening to sue you if you don't give them horse plasma (anavip) which was somehow a precursor before ivermectin became a contested issue.

I feel like his take leads to the is-ought problem and I'd rather trim my toenails with a chainsaw than visit that again.
I'm starting another travel contract soon, someone has to push back on this guy otherwise I'm going to come back in thirteen weeks to him dual wielding Uzi's, mountains of misoprostol and mifepristone that he's stockpiled in a corner as illegal contraband, and ivermectin as the adjuvant drug of choice second to only natural immunity against covfefe. I'm literally the asshole in these situations because this guy walks all over you guys with his **** out. I don't have the time, energy, or the three digit IQ required to fight off internet Ben Shapiro from owning the libs with superior facts and logic. If this guy becomes an absolute monster when I come back the onus is on you guys for letting him evolve into his final form.


S StoicPhantom I don't have time to read your response to me. I'll get to it when I have time. Will try to hit it up sometime early 2023.
 
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Sucumbio

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#HBC | Acrostic #HBC | Acrostic lol! Ever considered stand up?

Safe travels. Do know I like having you around because you're very knowledgeable and also well spoken. And not fake well spoken like someone who uses big words improperly.

A final thought... maybe the collapse of America is really the collapse of equitable dialog? If 2 learned people can't even agree to disagree wtf is everyone else supposed to do? Join a mob? ... actually everyone is already in a mob. Who doesn't personally know at least one other person /adjacent to either MAGA, antifa, etc and who wouldn't immediately choose sides if pressured, even just a little for some!
 

#HBC | Acrostic

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Safe travels. Do know I like having you around because you're very knowledgeable and also well spoken. And not fake well spoken like someone who uses big words improperly. A final thought... maybe the collapse of America is really the collapse of equitable dialog? If 2 learned people can't even agree to disagree wtf is everyone else supposed to do? Join a mob? ... actually everyone is already in a mob. Who doesn't personally know at least one other person /adjacent to either MAGA, antifa, etc and who wouldn't immediately choose sides if pressured, even just a little for some!
So straight up. I ****ed up in opening up with civil discourse. That's on me and my failure to be a better human being. I don't have it in me to be the better person, I'm sorry if that's petty ****, but it's true. If I had to play a game with StoicPhantom then it wouldn't be anything remotely related to Lincoln Douglass Debate, but something like Among Us so I could get a bandwagon and eject him from the game ASAP even if he could catch all the imposters with his frontal lobe deductive prowess.

That's not to say that he doesn't at times write solid points, have good rationale, and back his information with sources. But it's to say that those things matter far less to me when I think there's no shot of me liking what I see when I read in between the lines. Is it that a narcissistic take? Yes, completely. I am not a good human being. I could be better, I should be better. Equity is still intact. Dialogue is still intact. I can write posts, Stoic can write posts, and the CCP won't come kicking in our doors where we disappear for ten years only to come out I LOVE CCP t-shirts and holding hands in the public. Maybe I'll be the only one who gets captured, I don't have or keep any firearms on my person. Always been more worried of the threat of myself to myself rather than the threat of others to myself. I have been incredibly privileged to burn time like this and feel like it is far from a collapse, but the halcyon days were always numbered. Honestly, globally seeing what is going on in Sri Lanka (destitution), Ukraine (war), Turkey (inflation), and in China (bank run) I think that our macroeconomic situation as it currently exists is still a blessing.
 
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AbelConners

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I do not believe that. Do you require any recommendations for online casino games? This link was given to me by a friend. There was a tonne of useful information about the casino game on it when I opened it and had a look at it. By putting money into casino games and relying on this post, I did as well and succeeded. If you're seeking assistance as well, I suggest reading this post. Playing this game has greatly enhanced my gaming abilities as well. With the money I acquired by playing this game, I have assisted other individuals.
 
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Venus of the Desert Bloom

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I think as we barrel towards midterms; the results will be very indicative of what future this country has. Regardless who you ask, right or left, it’s doom and gloom for everyone. If the Dems win, America will transform into a communistic slum wasteland of socialism and wanton hedonism while if the Repubs win, America will transform into authoritarian dictatorship where anyone who isn’t white and Christian is expelled or even hunted down. Both sides conjure up fantasies apocalypses and rile up their followers to take action to save the country. It’s extremely dangerous and evil.

Everyone who doesn’t subscribe to these ideals are stuck in the middle because they just want to carve out a decent living with a family and to grow old. Instead, I need to side with one political ideology because that’s what’s expected of me or I don’t love America and I’m hurting what the country was founded on. Freedom and democracy. It’s sickening really.

That being said, as we march downward to the midterms, I hear a lot of civil war - mostly online but even in public. Just the other day, I heard a guy at the home improvement store I work at on weekends say he was stocking up on ammo for the civil war to the cashier. The cashier was defiantly against a civil war coming up (which surprised me as most just go along with it) but the man was adamant that one was coming next week. In addition, at the school I teach at during the weekday, I had a student come up to me scared about a potential civil war. He said he overheard someone in class talking about it and if he would be subscripted into service to fight other Americans. He said all he wants to do is watch anime, play video games, and get into college. He was legitimately scared.

I think we need to understand that words have long lasting social impact - they are things that should be thrown around to win followers and elections and then thrown away once the goal is achieved.

If we are indeed moving towards a civil war and it gets to the point that it affects our daily life and not just a bunch of far-right or left crazies causing sporadic issues; I’m more than willing to defend my family from both. I don’t care if you oppose or support abortion, gun rights, thought the election was stolen, etc etc etc. At the end of the day, all I want to be happy and be with my family. I’m not going to allow idiotic politicos and gerrymandering to prevent this and, if it does, I will retaliate regardless which side of the aisle they choose.
 
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#HBC | Acrostic

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I think as we barrel towards midterms; the results will be very indicative of what future this country has. Regardless who you ask, right or left, it’s doom and gloom for everyone. If the Dems win, America will transform into a communistic slum wasteland of socialism and wanton hedonism while if the Repubs win, America will transform into authoritarian dictatorship where anyone who isn’t white and Christian is expelled or even hunted down. Both sides conjure up fantasies apocalypses and rile up their followers to take action to save the country. It’s extremely dangerous and evil.

Everyone who doesn’t subscribe to these ideals are stuck in the middle because they just want to carve out a decent living with a family and to grow old. Instead, I need to side with one political ideology because that’s what’s expected of me or I don’t love America and I’m hurting what the country was founded on. Freedom and democracy. It’s sickening really.
Don't really relate to either of these paragraphs. I think Americans have become pathologically obsessed with creating straw men and shadow boxing them over calling out the ****ty behavior in front of us and taking it for what it is and correcting it before it becomes a habitual issue. More so advocating for a broken windows approach and less so playing into political polarization. I don't care what side you're on as long as what you write is in good faith, stands on conscientious reasoning, and is derived from independent thinking. This attempt at thematically creating sides prevents you from seeing the person making the claims and questioning what their underlying thought process is on matters. Frankly put, it's a bad approach to distilling the truth. I don't care about people's beliefs as much as their underlying approach. Contention by contention argumentation is low value which is why attempting to extrapolate a person's value theories e.g. premise/criterion is far more important when it comes to having conversations with people. I'm tired of seeing people refuse to touch what is between the lines when there is no point in having these conversations if there is no attempt to reach the root. Many times you will find nothing is there and people just want to debate anyone and I'm completely uninterested in these types of conversations. There's also a false dichotomy baked into your second paragraph. Loving this country, hating this country, being ambivalent all around is completely an independent process to whether or not you participate or not participate in the voting process. Do you want to see destitution, poverty, and a nation of people who are focused on surviving? Look at post-war Korea in the 1950s and compare that with Korea today. Look at Seoul, look at Busan. I keep hearing people complain about US intervention in Ukraine contributing to inflation and how we're overstepping by contributing HIMARS unit to the territory, but fail to understand how critical US support of S. Korea was from 1946-1976 providing around $12.6 billion in military assistance or the twenty to thirty thousand troops that are deployed regularly to assist S. Korea with the DMZ on the border. This country is spoiled with riches, but it doesn't appreciate any of the blessings. Americans fantasize about war and desolation because there has been peace on the home front for far too long. God forbid an actual conflict with someone who punches in our weight class actually comes to us.

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#HBC | Acrostic

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That being said, as we march downward to the midterms, I hear a lot of civil war - mostly online but even in public. Just the other day, I heard a guy at the home improvement store I work at on weekends say he was stocking up on ammo for the civil war to the cashier. The cashier was defiantly against a civil war coming up (which surprised me as most just go along with it) but the man was adamant that one was coming next week. In addition, at the school I teach at during the weekday, I had a student come up to me scared about a potential civil war. He said he overheard someone in class talking about it and if he would be subscripted into service to fight other Americans. He said all he wants to do is watch anime, play video games, and get into college. He was legitimately scared.

I think we need to understand that words have long lasting social impact - they are things that should be thrown around to win followers and elections and then thrown away once the goal is achieved. If we are indeed moving towards a civil war and it gets to the point that it affects our daily life and not just a bunch of far-right or left crazies causing sporadic issues; I’m more than willing to defend my family from both. I don’t care if you oppose or support abortion, gun rights, thought the election was stolen, etc etc etc. At the end of the day, all I want to be happy and be with my family. I’m not going to allow idiotic politicos and gerrymandering to prevent this and, if it does, I will retaliate regardless which side of the aisle they choose.
Response deleted. Non-constructive post.
 
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volbound1700

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A lot of the view points on here are going to be shaken by people's personal and political view points so this thread might be asking for trouble.

I do think the 1980s and 1990s were kind of the "high" point of the USA. Several factors have hurt the USA

1. Lack of Direction or Moral Compass - Today we are divided not just by parties but how we view the world and what is right or wrong. USA prior to 1960 was basically similar in culture to the old British Empire or Continental Europe and held those traditional values (hence conservatism, for the most part, pushes to bring back those values). However, the USA today doesn't have a set value. You have Christians (of varying degrees), Atheists, Muslims, Jews, etc. all trying to agree on what should be morally right and what is not morally right

2. Economic Challenge - First off, I agree that the wealth gap is problematic. However, raising minimal wage can be problematic as well because USA competes in a global theater. Already USA (as well as European and Japanese products) are getting less competitive globally. Low wage nations like China, India, Thailand, etc. have started to dominate manufactured goods. Therefore when faced with increasing wages, a lot of business are just forced to close because they cannot compete anymore. There isn't a real good solution to this problem and it is not just impacting the USA as Europe and Japan have also been hit with the low wage competition on the global market.

3. Rising Property Value - This is a major concern. People, especially young people, cannot afford the mortgage for homes currently. As a result, people are not building proper credit, savings, etc.

4. Failed Education System - Our education system seems more about divided us into classes rather than actually teaching real world knowledge today. Their are exceptions and sometimes you just have great teachers. I think the higher education system (university level) is more problematic than the public education system but both have issues

5. Political Divide - Political divide in USA is rough. USA has always struggled with huge political divide throughout its history but we in a period were the divide is dangerous. The last time USA was in such a huge divide was maybe the 1920s or perhaps 1890s. Corruption is rampant and people are not truly paying attention to candidates and voting (in this recent wave, a dead lawmaker literally won an election in Pennsylvania). Obama and Trump both divided our nation even more, especially Trump with his rhetoric and election fraud mess.

6. National Debt - This is probably the top problem in the USA and it has no fix. Most of the USA government expense is Healthcare/Social Security and it isn't going to "illegal" immigrants as people are saying but rather to retired, elderly people, notably people that are required to be in assisted living or nursing homes. We can scale back military and that helps (although over 60-70% of military spending is VA Benefits). The interest payments are eventually going to get higher than the money our government brings in. I think the government is hesitant to raise taxes because Americans are already struggling. This isn't just a USA problem. Nations are just not prepared for the fact that a segment of the population is living longer and there is a lot of resources required to keep care facilities and hospitals operating.

The benefit to the USA is that it has no serious external threats. China would be the main threat but they don't have the naval power or ability to threaten the USA. They also have a lot of regional enemies: Vietnam, South Korea, India, Philippines, Japan, and Taiwan. This limits their ability to project power like the USA. Russia is the other great threat but they are losing right now in Ukraine. Russia just doesn't have the economic strength or leadership to be a real threat.

USA is highly helped by having a large network of Allies across the globe including NATO, Japan, South Korea, Israel, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, the Philippines, Australia, New Zealand, etc. Most nations are friendly and trade with USA which keeps USA's projection of power at a global level. It is also why the world economy is impacted when the US economy struggles.
 
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