• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Cloud's "Worst Match-Up" (What do you think?)

(Samn)

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
59
Location
Iowa
3DS FC
3153-5057-8213
Cloud's Worst Match-Ups
:4bayonetta2:I think Bayonetta easily beat Cloud because she has great range than Cloud with her smashes (although laggy.) She can also kill off Cloud at mid percents with her Bullet Climax, but the thing that helps her the most against Cloud is that once Cloud is thrown off the edge at any percent she can use Witch Time because his recovery does grab the edge and she can fully charge a Down Smash.

:4pikachu:This one may be a little surprising for some but I honestly think the Cloud has a very tough time against Pikachu. Pikachu's projectile (Thunder Jolt) is way better than Cloud's Blade Beam because it comes out faster and Pikachu can run with it and grab if shielded, Pikachu also can recover from very low with Quick Attack and makes taking the edge no problem for Pikachu. He also has many combos that can be used on Cloud because he fast falls.

:4rob:R.O.B is an interesting character with some flaws that set him apart from other characters in the cast, but what he is good at is very good against Cloud. Both characters have some pretty big end lag after their attacks.
Robo Burner is a good recovery move but after using it has to refill before it can have max recovery, but the thing that makes R.O.B so good against Cloud in my opinion is the Robo Beam and Gyro they both work out well because Gyro can be thrown multiple times and Robo Beam can be angled and is pretty strong. R.O.B is also pretty strong and can attack Cloud during end lag with a strong attack and visa versa.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Not an awful matchup, but :4dk: is a pain in the ass with how long-ranged his attacks are, and how dangerous it is to be grabbed by him. Has a huge advantage over us onstage too considering he has four spikes and attacks like nair and bair to gimp us.

:4ness: also isn't particularly pleasant either from my experience, though I'm likely just playing the MU wrong.
 

GameCrash

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
15
The absolute worst match-up is a Little Mac :4littlemac: against a Dedede :4dedede:. This match-up will always end badly for the Little Mac. I know you're talking about cloud but seriously, this is a bad match-up.
 
Last edited:

(Samn)

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
59
Location
Iowa
3DS FC
3153-5057-8213
Not an awful matchup, but :4dk: is a pain in the *** with how long-ranged his attacks are, and how dangerous it is to be grabbed by him. Has a huge advantage over us onstage too considering he has four spikes and attacks like nair and bair to gimp us.

:4ness: also isn't particularly pleasant either from my experience, though I'm likely just playing the MU wrong.
I do agree Donkey is pretty hard to fight as Cloud, I notice that I always get hit by his combos and getting out ranged by his B-air
 

(Samn)

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
59
Location
Iowa
3DS FC
3153-5057-8213
Not an awful matchup, but :4dk: is a pain in the *** with how long-ranged his attacks are, and how dangerous it is to be grabbed by him. Has a huge advantage over us onstage too considering he has four spikes and attacks like nair and bair to gimp us.

:4ness: also isn't particularly pleasant either from my experience, though I'm likely just playing the MU wrong.
but I find :4bayonetta2: to be the worst for :4cloud2:
 

FryingPan

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 12, 2014
Messages
15
His worst matchups have to be

Diddy: His neutral is very overwhelming, as it is for most characters. When diddy has momentum it can become incredibly hard to land due to banana and he'll start racking up damage fast.

Pikachu: His amazing edge guarding alone makes this matchup tough. An intelligent pika can and will punish unsafe recoveries. This is another character who's speed and movement options can make it hard for us to land or gain back momentum when we lose it.

Shiek: Despite the nerfs Shiek is still very safe. She has to play more patiently now to get more damage before kills but can still abuse her shield and frame data to avoid getting hit. Of course, it only takes a few mistakes for us to net a stock, but getting fair'd right off the stage is not fun and it can happen all too easily. Shiek essentially has to play defensive the whole time but I do think she wins the matchup.

Fox: You see the pattern here. Speedy characters with amazing frame data are the toughest. Fox is so agile that he can effectively dance around the range of Cloud's aerials and punish hard when he makes a mistake. Fox's down smash can also trade with clouds up-b.

These are just my personal opinion. I think Mario and Bayo are pretty tough too.
 

(Samn)

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
59
Location
Iowa
3DS FC
3153-5057-8213
His worst matchups have to be

Diddy: His neutral is very overwhelming, as it is for most characters. When diddy has momentum it can become incredibly hard to land due to banana and he'll start racking up damage fast.

Pikachu: His amazing edge guarding alone makes this matchup tough. An intelligent pika can and will punish unsafe recoveries. This is another character who's speed and movement options can make it hard for us to land or gain back momentum when we lose it.

Shiek: Despite the nerfs Shiek is still very safe. She has to play more patiently now to get more damage before kills but can still abuse her shield and frame data to avoid getting hit. Of course, it only takes a few mistakes for us to net a stock, but getting fair'd right off the stage is not fun and it can happen all too easily. Shiek essentially has to play defensive the whole time but I do think she wins the matchup.

Fox: You see the pattern here. Speedy characters with amazing frame data are the toughest. Fox is so agile that he can effectively dance around the range of Cloud's aerials and punish hard when he makes a mistake. Fox's down smash can also trade with clouds up-b.

These are just my personal opinion. I think Mario and Bayo are pretty tough too.
I agree with Pikachu, Fox, and Diddy being hard Match-ups, but for me I always thought of Shiek as easy, but Thanks you for you opinion
 

8383d3 90 90 10 hundred

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 18, 2016
Messages
88
Location
ny
Diddy: His neutral is very overwhelming, as it is for most characters. When diddy has momentum it can become incredibly hard to land due to banana and he'll start racking up damage fast.
yeah diddy. i think diddy is really hard.

i feel like clouds disjoint can take decent care of fox, pika, sheik

but idk why diddy wrecks my cloud
 

(Samn)

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
59
Location
Iowa
3DS FC
3153-5057-8213
yeah diddy. i think diddy is really hard.

i feel like clouds disjoint can take decent care of fox, pika, sheik

but idk why diddy wrecks my cloud
I had that problem with greninja and after a day of labbing I beat that greninja 3-0, just keep working at it and you'll beat diddy
 

Onoh

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 22, 2015
Messages
64
Location
Ohio
NNID
benclaremom
Bayonetta and Donkey Kong are both pretty bad matchups imo. I would say some others that are not as well known would be:
:4yoshi:: Yoshi has the spacing tools and mobility to beat Cloud. The eggs and fast aerials always keep pressure on a Cloud and considering that Clouds normally get good damage from juggling, Yoshi can just flat out ignore it with his super armor and landing with eggs or neutral B.
:4falco:: Falco is not the best character, but he could be great against Cloud due to his gimp and offstage game. He doesn't have the reach, but majority of his moves are able to get Cloud offstage pretty easily and set up for edgeguarding.
 

(Samn)

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
59
Location
Iowa
3DS FC
3153-5057-8213
Yea I was actually having a hard time choosing to put those 2 on the list
 

(Samn)

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
59
Location
Iowa
3DS FC
3153-5057-8213
For Greninja I Check for Combos that I should Avoid, I checked for moves that I could punished, and I found out how I should fight against
 

Virum

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 1, 2010
Messages
682
Location
London, England
NNID
SiLeNtDo0m
3DS FC
3368-3441-2801
Bayonetta and Donkey Kong are both pretty bad matchups imo. I would say some others that are not as well known would be:
:4yoshi:: Yoshi has the spacing tools and mobility to beat Cloud. The eggs and fast aerials always keep pressure on a Cloud and considering that Clouds normally get good damage from juggling, Yoshi can just flat out ignore it with his super armor and landing with eggs or neutral B.
Yoshi is definitely not a bad match-up for Cloud. Yoshi is already a character that struggles vs disjoints and Cloud is the king of them. Eggs aren't a particularly amazing camping tool, so Cloud seldom has to approach and can always remain on the defensive, and Cloud's overall superior mobility (particularly in Limit, LB Cloud is faster than Yoshi at every avenue but also outranges him) allow him to weave around Yoshi's main offensive options and punish accordingly. Furthermore Yoshi's double jump KB based heavy armour (not super armour) will not only not prevent Cloud's aerial pressure for too long but again due to Cloud's superior range and mobility he can space around it anyway. Then you have stuff like fresh dash attack breaking Yoshi's double jump armour at as low as 6% and the simple fact that Yoshi has to commit to his double jump to get the armour as nothing in his moveset can adequately challenge a well spaced Cloud UAir from below (Down B and DAir are too slow and lose anyway, NAir doesn't hit far enough below him). Cloud wins vs Yoshi handily.
 

(Samn)

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
59
Location
Iowa
3DS FC
3153-5057-8213
When ever I hit Yoshi's Second Jump I always get hit with a F-air because of the super armor am
Oh okay thanks. I seem to struggle with low tiers.
Yea no Problem when I lab I also Play AS the character so I can get a feel of what works for my opponent and predict
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
In my opinion, Cloud's worst matchup is against :4luigi:. I know some Clouds and Luigis think that Cloud wins the matchup and I can see why; you want to keep Luigi away with Cloud's range, giving Luigi fewer options. While Luigi is strong in the air, so is Cloud and Cloud can easily juggle Luigi (thanks to crappy air speed).
The reason why I personally believe Cloud loses is because if Luigi gimps Cloud with the Luigi Cyclone, Cloud is basically done. From my experiences, it's not that hard for Luigi to get Cloud off-stage and gimp him. The MU gets worse on Final Destination or any omega stage. On FD, Cloud has less to move around in and Luigi has more opportunities to get in Cloud's face, making it easier for Luigi to gimp him.
Honestly, I would never go Cloud in this MU and I would bring out a different character, like Corrin.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

Spiciest of Guacamoles
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
77,179
Location
somewhere in Canada
Switch FC
SW-4202-4979-0504
In my opinion, Cloud's worst matchup is against :4luigi:. I know some Clouds and Luigis think that Cloud wins the matchup and I can see why; you want to keep Luigi away with Cloud's range, giving Luigi fewer options. While Luigi is strong in the air, so is Cloud and Cloud can easily juggle Luigi (thanks to crappy air speed).
The reason why I personally believe Cloud loses is because if Luigi gimps Cloud with the Luigi Cyclone, Cloud is basically done. From my experiences, it's not that hard for Luigi to get Cloud off-stage and gimp him. The MU gets worse on Final Destination or any omega stage. On FD, Cloud has less to move around in and Luigi has more opportunities to get in Cloud's face, making it easier for Luigi to gimp him.
Honestly, I would never go Cloud in this MU and I would bring out a different character, like Corrin.
By that logic, Cloud has a losing MU with everyone since each character has at least one move they can use to gimp Cloud...
 
Last edited:

(Samn)

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
59
Location
Iowa
3DS FC
3153-5057-8213
Ya there is a Luigi main in my town and I can't beat him, but I think there are worse match-ups
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
By that logic, Cloud has a losing MU with everyone since each character has at least one move they can use to gimp Cloud...
Wait until you fight an experienced Luigi... you will be dead at early percents with little chance to fight back. Gimping is especially bad against Luigi.
There might be worse MUs, but this isn't by no means a winning one IMO.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

Spiciest of Guacamoles
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
77,179
Location
somewhere in Canada
Switch FC
SW-4202-4979-0504
Wait until you fight an experienced Luigi... you will be dead at early percents with little chance to fight back. Gimping is especially bad against Luigi.
There might be worse MUs, but this isn't by no means a winning one IMO.
I know that, actually.

It's pretty infuriating, but all you need to do at this MU (and pretty much any other MU with Cloud) is to stay as far as possible from the ledge.

That way, Luigi is gonna have a harder time gimping you and you can just abuse Cloud's greatness on the plumber.
 

(Samn)

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
59
Location
Iowa
3DS FC
3153-5057-8213
Wait until you fight an experienced Luigi... you will be dead at early percents with little chance to fight back. Gimping is especially bad against Luigi.
There might be worse MUs, but this isn't by no means a winning one IMO.
Hes experienced
 

Thor

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
2,009
Location
UIUC [school year]. MN [summer]
Cloud beats Diddy Kong. It's actually supposed to be one of Diddy's worst MUs. You have a giant sword [yay back air] and better air speed to air-to-air. If you can bother to learn to glide toss the banana [jump-cancel throw, technically], that hit confirms into finishing touch as well (not that useful, but it can happen and I've done it before).

Cloud also beats Luigi. Again, giant sword guy vs poor traction slow dude. Camp him out, zone him with the sword [nair/fair/bair should all work], if you ever force him to side+b offstage he should die for it. He should grab you very rarely and you have little reason to be offstage against Luigi if you aren't busy swatting his side+B away or trying to two-frame his up+b.

Pikachu beats Cloud 55-45 [slight edge] or it's even. Cloud can keep Pikachu out decently but Pikachu getting in is a force, and offstage Pikachu is seriously threatening.

I've played with one of the best Bayos and I think Cloud Bayo is about even [though I lose almost every time]. You have to respect witch twist, but once she's above us, juggle juggle juggle. Dthrow can lead stuff at low percents, but you should nearly always uthrow and try to dtilt, uthrow, or uair her landings to get her up there and keep her up there [or at least get center stage back] (alternatively, throw her offstage and charge limit if you want, but juggles are by far the most efficient way to raise her percent). If they like witch time to land, try to bait it and charge either usmash [if she's not at KO percents or at KO percents for usmash] or fsmash [a little trickier given how anti-airing with this move works, but at the ledge she'll die at like 70]. If she side+bs on the ground through our shield [not frequent but it happens], drop shield cross slash or ftilt her. If she does side+b close enough to land second kick, either immediate climhazzard OoS or wait for the kick and grab or Climhazzard it [we may be able to cross slash it, I'd have to check]. We're heavy enough that her stuff thankfully won't kill stupidly early if you DI carefully. If she's actually witch-timing your recovery, you're not b-reversing it enough - I'm pretty sure we can always 50-50 where she has to use it, unless she's using it like directly inside you, at which point you just need to climhazzard sooner [or if that's where she's doing it, why is she not just nairing??? She shouldn't be there to hit you with witch time XD].

Most Fox players I know strongly dislike fighting Cloud and seem to lose to him a lot. I personally can play both characters and do not usually like fighting either side of the MU. I'm open to various interpretations of it, but they seem to body each other offstage. Fox might have somewhat of an upper hand in neutral [I'm really not sure], but he's extremely fragile and his recovery seems extremely vulnerable to limit blade beam, especially if you do it offstage since you can also threaten limit side+b to finish him offstage at like 50%. I think it's even. Then again, when you win most MUs, even can feel tough.

ROB Cloud seems about even or slightly Cloud favor but I'm not sure. One of ROB's primary weaknesses is an inability to land, and Cloud has the best uair in the game [or one of them]. If Cloud catches the gyro, ROB has no tools to force Cloud to approach (powershield lasers on reaction), so you can charge limit and fend him off with cross-slash and climhazzard, or just use the fact that you're holding it to force him to approach, then throw it at him. The gyro seems pretty good at gimping and dthrow uair is definitely annoying, but I don't think those are enough to swing it ROB favor.

Cloud is supposed to beat Ness for the reasons I mentioned he beats Luigi. Ness isn't very fast, we have an easy pseudo-dash dance, and Ness is outranged by the buster sword. We can also two-frame Ness's up+b with dair pretty consistently [I have hit it numerous times in tournament] or just put limit break cross slash in the way and say good-bye to Ness. His Yo-yo edgeguards are very strong if we don't have the option to try to go high to clip him out of it though, so it kind of goes both ways.

I have not played vs Yoshi much, but a Yoshi Cloud main I know said Yoshi gets rekt by Cloud, hard (he said even though he likes the ditto, he just goes Cloud because it is so much easier), and from what I have played, I am convinced Cloud wins it. Cloud actually has better air speed than Yoshi with limit and significantly more range. If Yoshi is throwing eggs, charge limit and powershield them on reaction. We can use retreating aerials to keep aggressive Yoshi out and really try to zone with bair. If the double jump armor is like Melee/PM, it's directional, so dair is terrible at beating it, but uair will break it pretty early [or limit climhazzard].

I don't have much info on Cloud Falco, but they seem to body each other offstage, and Falco without his jump is almost always dead. If you DI away from Falco, he can't fair chain or whatever [happens if you DI in], so just don't let him get silly hit confirms he doesn't actually get for real. I don't think it's a bad MU for Cloud from having played it, but I don't think he necessarily dominates.

DK is annoying because Ding Dong is such a generous window, but if you understand how to gimp DK it becomes easier [you can space LB cross slash on his up+b to kill him around 90% offstage, or often earlier]. He's got range to rival Cloud's, but he's very easy to juggle, especially if you are confident in your ability to cover his landings by running underneath, powershielding the bair, and uthrowing again. DK is also very bad on the ledge - try to learn the timing to dtilt to cover neutral getup [or two-frame his ledge snap] so you can juggle him even longer. Keeping him above Cloud is definitely our best bet, and I'm fairly confident Cloud wins the MU.

Now, if you're curious what characters I think actually beat Cloud... Pikachu, as mentioned above, *probably* beats Cloud. I'm not sure how badly Greninja loses onstage, but offstage seems like it'd be terrible if we can't snap ledge with early up+b, so I'd have to look into that MU. Charizard may actually not be very friendly [I'd have to look more, but he lives forever, has amazing grabs, high movement speed, and rock smash actually lets him land sometimes... I played a rather solid 'zard and it wasn't particularly easy with Cloud], but I doubt we lose to him. I don't know how Cloud Mario is supposed to shake down - I've heard Cloud bodies Mario, Mario bodies Cloud, it's even... don't really know, but I do know that I don't mind fighting Mario as Cloud. Beyond those characters, Sheik is still a force, although her lack of kill confirms helps tremendously [and fair being less ranged is useful too], while Ryu may do some serious damage to Cloud [I'm not familiar with fighting Ryu, so I just don't know]. But there are less than 10 MUs I'd be willing to say Cloud loses without some serious argumentation for others, and most of those may actually be even or swing Cloud favor. Note that I'm excluding even MUs... from what I know, Cloud Sonic is rather even, and Cloud Falcon may also be even [not sure on that one to be honest, it may favor Falcon but I doubt it].
 

(Samn)

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
59
Location
Iowa
3DS FC
3153-5057-8213
Cloud beats Diddy Kong. It's actually supposed to be one of Diddy's worst MUs. You have a giant sword [yay back air] and better air speed to air-to-air. If you can bother to learn to glide toss the banana [jump-cancel throw, technically], that hit confirms into finishing touch as well (not that useful, but it can happen and I've done it before).

Cloud also beats Luigi. Again, giant sword guy vs poor traction slow dude. Camp him out, zone him with the sword [nair/fair/bair should all work], if you ever force him to side+b offstage he should die for it. He should grab you very rarely and you have little reason to be offstage against Luigi if you aren't busy swatting his side+B away or trying to two-frame his up+b.

Pikachu beats Cloud 55-45 [slight edge] or it's even. Cloud can keep Pikachu out decently but Pikachu getting in is a force, and offstage Pikachu is seriously threatening.

I've played with one of the best Bayos and I think Cloud Bayo is about even [though I lose almost every time]. You have to respect witch twist, but once she's above us, juggle juggle juggle. Dthrow can lead stuff at low percents, but you should nearly always uthrow and try to dtilt, uthrow, or uair her landings to get her up there and keep her up there [or at least get center stage back] (alternatively, throw her offstage and charge limit if you want, but juggles are by far the most efficient way to raise her percent). If they like witch time to land, try to bait it and charge either usmash [if she's not at KO percents or at KO percents for usmash] or fsmash [a little trickier given how anti-airing with this move works, but at the ledge she'll die at like 70]. If she side+bs on the ground through our shield [not frequent but it happens], drop shield cross slash or ftilt her. If she does side+b close enough to land second kick, either immediate climhazzard OoS or wait for the kick and grab or Climhazzard it [we may be able to cross slash it, I'd have to check]. We're heavy enough that her stuff thankfully won't kill stupidly early if you DI carefully. If she's actually witch-timing your recovery, you're not b-reversing it enough - I'm pretty sure we can always 50-50 where she has to use it, unless she's using it like directly inside you, at which point you just need to climhazzard sooner [or if that's where she's doing it, why is she not just nairing??? She shouldn't be there to hit you with witch time XD].

Most Fox players I know strongly dislike fighting Cloud and seem to lose to him a lot. I personally can play both characters and do not usually like fighting either side of the MU. I'm open to various interpretations of it, but they seem to body each other offstage. Fox might have somewhat of an upper hand in neutral [I'm really not sure], but he's extremely fragile and his recovery seems extremely vulnerable to limit blade beam, especially if you do it offstage since you can also threaten limit side+b to finish him offstage at like 50%. I think it's even. Then again, when you win most MUs, even can feel tough.

ROB Cloud seems about even or slightly Cloud favor but I'm not sure. One of ROB's primary weaknesses is an inability to land, and Cloud has the best uair in the game [or one of them]. If Cloud catches the gyro, ROB has no tools to force Cloud to approach (powershield lasers on reaction), so you can charge limit and fend him off with cross-slash and climhazzard, or just use the fact that you're holding it to force him to approach, then throw it at him. The gyro seems pretty good at gimping and dthrow uair is definitely annoying, but I don't think those are enough to swing it ROB favor.

Cloud is supposed to beat Ness for the reasons I mentioned he beats Luigi. Ness isn't very fast, we have an easy pseudo-dash dance, and Ness is outranged by the buster sword. We can also two-frame Ness's up+b with dair pretty consistently [I have hit it numerous times in tournament] or just put limit break cross slash in the way and say good-bye to Ness. His Yo-yo edgeguards are very strong if we don't have the option to try to go high to clip him out of it though, so it kind of goes both ways.

I have not played vs Yoshi much, but a Yoshi Cloud main I know said Yoshi gets rekt by Cloud, hard (he said even though he likes the ditto, he just goes Cloud because it is so much easier), and from what I have played, I am convinced Cloud wins it. Cloud actually has better air speed than Yoshi with limit and significantly more range. If Yoshi is throwing eggs, charge limit and powershield them on reaction. We can use retreating aerials to keep aggressive Yoshi out and really try to zone with bair. If the double jump armor is like Melee/PM, it's directional, so dair is terrible at beating it, but uair will break it pretty early [or limit climhazzard].

I don't have much info on Cloud Falco, but they seem to body each other offstage, and Falco without his jump is almost always dead. If you DI away from Falco, he can't fair chain or whatever [happens if you DI in], so just don't let him get silly hit confirms he doesn't actually get for real. I don't think it's a bad MU for Cloud from having played it, but I don't think he necessarily dominates.

DK is annoying because Ding Dong is such a generous window, but if you understand how to gimp DK it becomes easier [you can space LB cross slash on his up+b to kill him around 90% offstage, or often earlier]. He's got range to rival Cloud's, but he's very easy to juggle, especially if you are confident in your ability to cover his landings by running underneath, powershielding the bair, and uthrowing again. DK is also very bad on the ledge - try to learn the timing to dtilt to cover neutral getup [or two-frame his ledge snap] so you can juggle him even longer. Keeping him above Cloud is definitely our best bet, and I'm fairly confident Cloud wins the MU.

Now, if you're curious what characters I think actually beat Cloud... Pikachu, as mentioned above, *probably* beats Cloud. I'm not sure how badly Greninja loses onstage, but offstage seems like it'd be terrible if we can't snap ledge with early up+b, so I'd have to look into that MU. Charizard may actually not be very friendly [I'd have to look more, but he lives forever, has amazing grabs, high movement speed, and rock smash actually lets him land sometimes... I played a rather solid 'zard and it wasn't particularly easy with Cloud], but I doubt we lose to him. I don't know how Cloud Mario is supposed to shake down - I've heard Cloud bodies Mario, Mario bodies Cloud, it's even... don't really know, but I do know that I don't mind fighting Mario as Cloud. Beyond those characters, Sheik is still a force, although her lack of kill confirms helps tremendously [and fair being less ranged is useful too], while Ryu may do some serious damage to Cloud [I'm not familiar with fighting Ryu, so I just don't know]. But there are less than 10 MUs I'd be willing to say Cloud loses without some serious argumentation for others, and most of those may actually be even or swing Cloud favor. Note that I'm excluding even MUs... from what I know, Cloud Sonic is rather even, and Cloud Falcon may also be even [not sure on that one to be honest, it may favor Falcon but I doubt it].
Wow thanks for the Helpful information, and I also think that Greninja is hard fight for Greninja and I had to train my self just for that match-up
 
Last edited:

Virum

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 1, 2010
Messages
682
Location
London, England
NNID
SiLeNtDo0m
3DS FC
3368-3441-2801
Wait until you fight an experienced Luigi... you will be dead at early percents with little chance to fight back. Gimping is especially bad against Luigi.
There might be worse MUs, but this isn't by no means a winning one IMO.
I've played against JMiller's Luigi, arguably the best Luigi in Europe as Cloud (my Cloud is okay and I'm no where near as solid as JMiller is fundamentally) and forced him to switch off his character to counter-pick. Cloud clearly beats Luigi. He should almost never be putting you in the situation where he can force the gimp and Cloud has complete control of the onstage game due to superior range, mobility and the ability to force Luigi's approach with Limit. Obviously one has to be mindful of Luigi's incredible boxing game but Cloud has more than his fair share of tools to keep Luigi out of his face most of the time. Furthermore it's super easy to hold advantage state vs Luigi as UAir and NAir beat basically all of his landing options.
 

Skyfox2000

War it never changes...
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Messages
1,893
Location
Midgar
NNID
Skyfox2000
As a :4cloud:main. I would like to weigh in on this topic. However, my information may be incorrect or some may disagree with me. Here are a couple of "rough" matchups not "loosing" matchups I think that gives Cloud a tough time imo plus experience.

1.:4wiifit:imo is a pretty tough Matchup imo. Wii Fit Trainer has a pretty good off stage game and a really strong projectile that can get annoying to deal with at times. I feel like Wii Fit Trainer can gimp Cloud very easily with multiple of her moves. But, Cloud also has better mobility than Wii Fit Trainer that's why I don't think Cloud looses this match-up terribly. It might be even or sightly in Wii Fit Trainer's favor imo. Also I've seen John Numbers do really well against Cloud players.

2.:4pit:/ :4darkpit: I feel like they do really well against Cloud because they both are really good at Gimping Cloud with Arrows.They are also very good ledge guarding game and have the Orbitars (Not really to familar with the Orbitars.) Also Pit and Dark Pit have really good frame data as well (I think at least...) Also a really good Grab Game. However I don't think it's that bad against Cloud just maybe a little difficult for him. Cloud has his advantages against the Angels and they have thier advantages against him.

3. :4megaman: For some reason I feel like the Blue Bomber does really good against Cloud. He has pretty good Air Mobility and I think Leaf Shield can really be a pretty big problem for Cloud. Also Megaman has a pretty strong projectile game.

4.:4marth:I feel like Marth does pretty good against Cloud or this match-up is kinda even. Marth is a really good at ledge guarding. Marth can really keep Cloud off the stage really well. I also feel like Marth can out space Cloud and Cloud can out space Marth. They both have to really respect each other's Swords.

5.:4shulk:Okay, don't laugh me out of the thread just yet. I actually played against Tremendodude yesterday and he beat me twice in a 2/3 But, I did really well against him and I keep the match even the whole time. I asked him yesterday how bad do you think Cloud is for Shulk. He stated "Cloud has advantages against Shulk and wins the Neutral but, if Cloud makes a mistake Shulk can punish him for it." He then said " Shulk exceeds at killing at the ledge and that is something Cloud is weak against" Also I think Shulk is a pretty good at ledge guarding. However, Cloud has better frame data than what Shulk does.

Those are all the "rough" match-ups I could think of off the top of my head. I don't think these matchups are "loose able" just a bit rough for Cloud. I am also going by how the Japanese Players play Cloud because I think they are better and they play more patiently with the Limit Break and isn't throwing it out as soon as they get it like 2 other Cloud players we all might know of....
 

Derpnaster

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 23, 2015
Messages
323
Not a Cloud main but I do keep a Greninja around and I'm working on getting Cloud to the level of a pocket character.

Just my little bit of insight into the Greninja, Cloud MU. Honestly it's a lot more even than you guys are giving it credit for. Yes Cloud has a massive disjointed hitbox and is pretty fast but keep in mind the frog is faster and has overall better mobility. Even with Greninja's admittedly poor OOS options he is still fast enough to punish a lot of Cloud's aerials, This is even more dangerous if your spacing is off.

Shadow Sneak can be used to great effect on attacks or strings with weak hits that don't send greninaj into tumble (Look up Shadow Sneak Hitstun Canceling, SSHC from here on out) which include's Cloud's Down Smash, and possibly Forward Smash though I've not tired this one in combat and I don't want to. The best way to counter this is to just shield and use pretty much and OOS option is a solid punish just make sure you're not getting conditioned for a mixup later because a good Greninja will never repeat something without a reason to.

Water shuriken can get anyoing if the Greninja knows what it's doing and doesn't charge them often. Also good for putting a little pressure on Cloud to approach or play the camping game, either way expect a half decent Greninja to be ready for both. Blade Beam can classh with the unchanrged and Limit Blade Beam passes right through, however Limit Blade Beam and a full charged WS just trade so keep that in mind if you're near a ledge, this move can, and will kill off the ledge around 120% with rage.

Substitute, no one ever brings this up but I feel it has some application. Most notably it can pass through a Limit Blade Beam unhindered and because it's directional it makes it risky to throw out a smash during an edgeguard situation, I've come back more than once by countering a smash or fair meant to spike/stage spike Greninja.
If you do get caough after a smash you're pretty much screwed unless you can react in time and shield the hit. In the air you should respect the downward counter due to it's spike and if you suspect a coutner just pull back and don't commit to a move that might get you killed. Note that the Finishing Touch windbox will not trigger the coutner and the endlag is pretty harsh so if the coutner wiffs punish it will all you got, over the ledge a wiffed Substitute is pretty much a free stock.

Hydro Pump. Just frear this move overall, not only is it hard to predict what angle it will go at but even one good hydro pump can end a stock for Cloud. Furthermore it can be used onstage to pus cloud away or act as a safer movement option provided Cloud actualy gets hit with it.


Overall this MU is mostly defensive play on Greninja's side, we fear that sword and our weight doesn't do us any favors. However if Cloud slips up his attack even once be prepared for either a really hard punish or at worst a stock lost be hydro pump as that is the way most Greninja's will try to kill cloud at the start.

This of course is all my input and I'd love to test this MU more before making a final opinion but above is all the tools I consistently use when fighiting Cloud with the frog at least as far as specails go. I won't even go into normal because to be honest aside from having slightly better tilts and a grab that can actually combo, Cloud will beat Greninja in the normal department.

Though now that I think about it, Respect the dair under ledge, If a frog goes below the ledge beware because he wants a spike and on a committed up be like Cloud's that can happen.

Thank you all for your time. And I apologize now if anything I said is incorrect, I'm still learning this MU myself.
 

Lord Dio

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 18, 2016
Messages
2,187
Location
FE Saga (I wish)
3DS FC
1435-7744-1699
DK's a threat to cloud players? Odd, just yesterday I beat a friend who was using DK with Cloud, and got the second stock with the bair, ironically enough.
Said friend mains Mario though, and when we fought yesterday......it was pretty even, and he only won because he timed me out.
For me the worst matchups are probably sheik, diddy, and pikachu.
 

Axel311

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
575
NNID
axel311
DK's a threat to cloud players? Odd, just yesterday I beat a friend who was using DK with Cloud, and got the second stock with the bair, ironically enough.
Said friend mains Mario though, and when we fought yesterday......it was pretty even, and he only won because he timed me out.
For me the worst matchups are probably sheik, diddy, and pikachu.
I co-main DK and the Cloud MU is rough mainly because of Cloud's upair. DK absolutely cannot land in this MU, he gets juggled for days. It's so so bad...against a good Cloud I have to constantly up B to the ledge just to get back to stage. Also he does get abused on the ledge with all Cloud's lingering hitboxes...limit side B just rekts at ledge because of DK's huge hurtbox and bad ledge recovery. However the ding dong does have a huge percent window so it's volatile for sure. It's alteast +1 to Cloud though, if not +2. Just play not to get grabbed and you shouldn't struggle with DK.

I think Cloud's worst MU is Diddy.
 
Last edited:

Lord Dio

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 18, 2016
Messages
2,187
Location
FE Saga (I wish)
3DS FC
1435-7744-1699
That's usually how I play the DK MU. The main threat there is a grab into bair.
Yeah, Diddy is hard to fight with cloud.
 

Heracr055

Smash Ace
Joined
May 27, 2015
Messages
712
Location
Buena Park, CA
Hi Cloud players! So I looked at this thread and a similar one about Cloud's worst MU's. I find Cloud to be my hardest MU and want to know what Cloud's top 5 hardest MU's are. Since both threads (especially the other one) have conflicting answers (the Luigi discussion, for instance), is there a widely accepted worst 5 MU's for Cloud? I greatly appreciate any advice from you guys
 

DavemanCozy

Smash Photographer
Joined
May 16, 2013
Messages
1,716
Location
London, ON
NNID
CavemanCossy
3DS FC
0216-1810-7681
:4pikachu: - His size is not a massive issue because of the area Cloud's hitboxes cover. Pikachu is also light and dies early to Cloud's KO power. Pikachu has options but does not easily escape Cloud's juggles; he can Quick attack but it does not beat Cloud's sword. Pikachu's advantage in this MU is being able to punish even slight commitments by Cloud because of his access to Quick Attack and burst speed. Pikachu is also very good at keeping Cloud offstage once he's there until he is done. I think it's even, I could see either Cloud +1 or Pikachu +1 though.

:4fox:- Like Pikachu, it's true Fox has a much easier time punishing your commitments because of his burst speed moves, and he can even do situational gimps with Shine or N-air offstage. His laser pestering doesn't let you freely charge limit. But Fox's recovery is one of the most linear in the game, making him very susceptible to gimps. His weight class combination with fall speed makes him one of the easiest characters to juggle and KO for Cloud as well. I think this is +1 for Cloud, I could see even though.

I honestly don't think Cloud has any losing matchups except for maybe Shiek and Pika. I'm not sure on Bayonetta: she might be bad for him too - I can see Bullet Climax stuffing everything he tries offstage, but onstage the neutral game is in Cloud's favour.

EDIT: actually, now that I think about it, Bayonetta could very well be his worst matchup.
 
Last edited:

Axel311

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
575
NNID
axel311
Hi Cloud players! So I looked at this thread and a similar one about Cloud's worst MU's. I find Cloud to be my hardest MU and want to know what Cloud's top 5 hardest MU's are. Since both threads (especially the other one) have conflicting answers (the Luigi discussion, for instance), is there a widely accepted worst 5 MU's for Cloud? I greatly appreciate any advice from you guys
A top 5 would be debatable, but it's pretty widely accepted that

:4diddy::4pikachu::4sheik:

are up there. Diddy because he can actually compete with Cloud in neutral unlike the majority of the cast and the other 2 mostly because of their ability to drag Cloud off stage with aerials and then edgeguard him well. These matchups are probably all around even-ish. You can argue a slight advantage in either direction.
 
Last edited:

Heracr055

Smash Ace
Joined
May 27, 2015
Messages
712
Location
Buena Park, CA
Thank you guys for the responses! Pikachu seems like quite the anti-metagame character from what I've seen, so I may try him out. On another note, I'm curious about the Toon Link MU. I heard he's decent against Cloud; throw in a perceived good game versus Bayonetta and I'm definitely playing him. So how do you all feel vs Toon Link?
 

(Samn)

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
59
Location
Iowa
3DS FC
3153-5057-8213
Wow I come back to Smash Boards and I see all of these comments lol thanks the the feedback
 

MarioMeteor

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 27, 2014
Messages
8,340
Location
New Orleans
NNID
BGenius23
3DS FC
0662-2900-1492
From my experience, Marth does pretty solid against Cloud, due to having range that almost matches his and the ability to gimp him very easily. Marth and Falchion can do just about everything Cloud and the Buster Sword can do (including kill you at 50%). I would say that the matchup is 55:45 in favor of Marth at best. I don't know if it's one of Cloud's worst, but it's definitely not good for old Blond-Haired Swordsman #3.
 

JesseMcCloud

AKA Zessei, Herald of Fate
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Messages
1,593
Location
The Eternal Void
NNID
JesseMcCloud
3DS FC
3652-0660-4917
Really fast characters like Fox, Pikachu, and Captain Falcon always give me heartburn as Cloud.
 

Yσנιмιтѕυ

Sm4sh Modder / Graphic Design
Joined
Jul 5, 2015
Messages
90
Location
Austin, TX
NNID
yojimitsu
1: :4luigi: because we saw what happened to m2k. rip.

2: :4pikachu: because we saw what happened to m2k. rip.

3: :4diddy: because we... well you get it now.

4: :4mario: need i repeat myself

5: :4megaman: cloud just cannot deal with the zoning pressure and punishes that megadude can dish out.
 

Derpnaster

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 23, 2015
Messages
323
Does anyone have any tips on how to fight mewtwo
Mewtwo doesn't like pressure or having to deal with disjoints. Watch out for Up Smash that thing will hit you if you get close, don't be afraid of Shadow Ball but do respect it and try to use any charging as a free approach or chance to charge your own things.

Edit: Mewtwo is also super lightweight so you will kill him slightly faster than he can kill you.

Things to be aware of are that Mewtwo will be able to punish FAir, and DAir, but not NAir and he can't beat UAir,
If you get caught with Confusion don't attack just jump and wait because usually a smash or a grab follows up Confusion. Be careful while crossing up Mewtwo, he can just OoS Up Smash or teleport away or Up Tilt.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom