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Cloud bad Matchups?

Axel311

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In case anyone missed it, m2k's Cloud just lost to Scatt's Megaman. Commentators said that m2k said it was a bad MU for Cloud. Scatt certainly made it look that way. And as much as I love watching Scatt and think he is very talented, I think we can definitely say that m2k has more general smash skill, though probably a lack of high level Megaman MU experience.
I don't know if M2K is a better smash 4 player, Scatt has taken top 8 at some huge tournaments. I'm not sure that M2K's smash 4 results are better. I think a lot of it was that Scatt has a big advantage in matchup knowledge. Not just that Mew2King probably has little to no high level megaman experience, but Scatt also knows Cloud well because he plays Cloud as a secondary.
 
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Megamang

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M2k has so much smash experience that it confuses us mere smash mortals. And also some pretty great Cloud results. Cloud benefits from fundamentals, which m2k is all about. And he isn't afraid to play however he feels is optimal. Not that Cloud can be cheesy against Megaman particularly, hes the one zoning him out... gimps though.
 

TTTTTsd

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I wonder how much Bair M2K used in the MU. I'll have to check the VOD but I think if Cloud Nair doesn't work in a particular MU the minute he starts spamming Bair even with the landing lag, it gets really annoying esp. vs shield.

His Bair is safe on shield and I've only ever seen Tweek exploit it to its natural full potential. It's seriously SUPER, SUPER good
 

Chalice

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M2K doesn't Bair much onstage. He's the Dair kinda guy

Tweek - Dash dances a lot to Bair space and get grabs. Aggressively edge guards with DTilt, Nair, and Limit Cross Slash. His short hop Fairs need work though. He fast falls too early and doesn't get the hitbox out

M2K - Fullhop Dair autocancel and Limit Camp. Also tends to use Limit immediately. Fair spacing is great. Likes to use Down Smash at the edge. Nair and Limit Cross Slash edge guards. Doesn't Bair a lot in neutral but he does it at the edge
 

Skyfox2000

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Well, I'd say every character has the ability to contest Cloud's game with strong rolls and shields in this game. Megaman can also have a leaf shield over his shield, and has great OOS with metal blade in hand... And also forces the approach, even though you have limit. Thats right, a megaman playing the MU right wont throw himself at you unsafely when you are charging limit! Also, he will pressure you with constant lemons, crash bombers, leaf shields, and sawblades (at various speeds and angles).

Nair can come at any time from pellet zoning, has a great hitbox, and sends you at a horrific angle. While Cloud can usually recover quickly from this, it racks on damage and a good megaman will take a strong position on stage. Bair and dair are solid tools for gimping Cloud, if mega has the time.

I'd argue that he is better off than most characters that have to fight Cloud, with his giant sword. For example, most characters lose out on their juggle game vs Cloud due to his dair demanding respect, but mega doesn't have to respect him at all. He's tall, so landing uair is decent on shield, and otherwise it juggles just fine... more than fine really, it does crazy damage and will trade with most things once its out, as it is seperate from megaman at this point.


TLDR Swords dont usually interact with projectiles well.
Yeah, I seen where Scatt beat M2K. I'm actually really glad he one. I really dislike how M2K plays Cloud he throws out the limit as soon as he gets it. I think the Japanese Players play Cloud much MUCH better. I was looking in the comment section of that match and everybody was defending M2K because of the "Match-Up experience" I'm not hating on M2K or anything I actually like him alot and he's one of my favorite smashers.
 

Megamang

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I generally agree. I believe mewtwo is evidence that mobility is king (as is the history of smash) in this game, so the benefits of having a limit charged are already really great, especially when they are boosting already good stats, every little bit counts for a lot.

Additionally, when Cloud has limit charged, he always has the threat of the Limit Cross Slash available. This is really nice for forcing respect, and can even make a tiny bit of shield pressure (like a landed bair) mean that it is time to give up on the shield or get it LCS'd.

Of course, on the m2k camp, you have the threat I mentioned earlier... they would emphasize that more, that a charged Cloud is always scary -> will usually use his moves -> you should stop him more aggressively for limit charging, where Cloud can take advantage of a forced approach in many MUs. If m2k misses his charge, he just turns around and starts charging again so... you either let him swing at you with limit moves over and over again until he wins, or you go to stop him from charging.

Or you just safely apply pressure with projectiles, and have a uair that beats the ridiculousness that is Cloud dair.
 

New_Dumal

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IMO Cloud have a great MU chart, but a lot of MU's that are currently overlooked.
From your characters, none of them is great against Cloud.

But Sheik is a strong pick, Diddy too, and I personally think Mario is one of the hardest Cloud MU's.
Even more If the best player in your region is not THAT good, Mario's specials and Bair give Cloud a bad time to recover.
Analyze how he is recovering and the characters I said will have good options to counter it.
 

_Nives_

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actually for me ryu is really hard for me once he get in, utilt is nuts in this Mu, sheik is still cloud worst mu. i still think that bayo is even as long as we dont keep limits on to long
 

HFlash

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Cloud's worst MU is definitely not Bayo anymore after the nerfs. His worst MU is probably between Shiek or Diddy. They are the only ones with neutrals that match that of Cloud plus Shiek is particularly good at abusing Cloud's poor recovery.
 
D

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:4sheik::4diddy::4falcon::4greninja: are the only MUs right now for us that I'd find troublesome. I'd say :4mario: is even or close to a disadvantage but I don't know how many high level results are there to back up my sentiment.
 
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ItsRainingGravy

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I made some posts a while back about :4megaman: and :4miigun: somewhere else about Cloud's MU's with them.


"Unlike Villager, Mega Man has constant hitboxes that move forward in the air (neutral air). On top of that, he has more aerial mobility than most characters in the game. This combination of tools allows him to bob and weave away from Cloud's large hitboxes, and apply constant pressure of his own. Additionally, this gives Mega Man a pretty good recovery as well, despite being heavy-ish in weight. While this does make him susceptible to combos, it ensures that Mega Man will live longer against Cloud's LB Cross Slash. Plus, it improves his edgeguarding abilities, which is very useful against Cloud's poor recovery.

Mega Man typically has a weakness of extremely poor killing options, but this is somewhat negated in the Cloud MU, since all he really has to do is edgeguard Cloud after sending him off of the stage, which makes things much easier for Mega Man. And because Mega Man's kit is mostly based around projectiles, it allows him to directly contest Cloud's ability to camp with Limit Break, which forces Cloud to play on his terms. And unlike Villager, Mega Man's Uair and Metal Blade allow him to cover more areas, which is particularly useful against platform camping.

Overall, this means that Mega Man generally has some sort of tool to answer to both a camping Cloud, AND an approaching Cloud...which is something that not many characters can say that they have. And because Cloud lacks a reflector and a super good projectile, this means that Mega Man can get away with more things when fighting Cloud as opposed to fighting other top tier characters. And Mega Man, despite his flaws, has a really good moveset when it comes to edgeguarding Cloud. Which gives Mega Man a slight edge in the matchup. The only thing he really has to worry about is CQC, which Mega Man typically wants to avoid no matter what anyways. But other than that, Mega Man actually has an edge in this fight.


The main difference between Villager and Mega Man is that Villager wants to set up camp, while Mega Man doesn't. Mega Man wants to play a mid-range game. Cloud is a character that has answers to both campers (Limit Break) and CQC (Buster Sword). However, one of Cloud's very few weaknesses is that his mid-range game can be exploited by a very few select characters. Cloud's other big weakness is that he is very susceptible to being edgeguarded. Mega Man falls perfectly within both of these categories. And it is also why people say that Sheik has a slight edge against Cloud too, since she can also play mid-range and edgeguard very well (though Sheik can pretty much do almost everything well tbh).

This would also explain Cloud's even matchup with Diddy Kong, since while Diddy has the edge at mid-range thanks to his bananas, his CQC and "camping" (he shouldn't) will fall short due to Cloud's Buster Sword and Limit Break. Thankfully for Diddy though, his amazing frame data will still allow him to be very proficient against Cloud in CQC. But he has to be really careful with Cloud's range. The same can mostly be said for Mario, since while he has better edgeguarding tools, his mid-range game can't really compare to Diddy's due the the lack of bananas (he's still decent at mid-range though). He also has less range on his normal attacks, but has more combo-ability. But unlike Mega Man or Sheik, neither Diddy nor Mario really have the right tools to directly say that they have an "edge" against Cloud.

Although admittedly, Mega Man's and Sheik's "egde" over Cloud is a very small one. Like a 55:45 advantage or something. And it certainty doesn't help that both characters are very hard to play in comparison to Cloud. Mega Man especially, since he is notoriously hard to play."

---

"Also, another character I have been experimenting with and finding success in is actually...Mii Gunner.

Mii Gunner has a really excellent set of tools to contest against Cloud. Fair being one of the most important ones. Not only does it provide huge horizontal spacing (like Mega Man's lemons), but it also knocks the opponent back unlike lemons, AND it pushes you backwards by a lot if you control it to do so. And unlike Villager's slingshot, it has far less landing lag, though a bit more than Mega Man's lemons. It basically takes the best elements of Mega Man's lemons and Villager's slingshot, and then slaps them together to create a really potent move overall. The only unfortunate thing is that, unlike Mega Man's lemons, it can only be used in the air and it can only be fired one at a time. Which makes it more predictable to deal with.

Aside from Fair, Mii Gunner's got a number of good special moves that can also deal with Cloud pretty well. Lunar Launch is actually effective at edgeguarding if used properly, as it covers an angle rarely any other projectile can (straight down), and it also sends the opponent horizontally. Meaning that, if Cloud is directly below you and is off stage, a perfectly fired Lunar Launch could spell the end for him. This is pretty effective, as Cloud is forced to recover low in a lot of situations. Robin also has something like this (Elwind), but not only is that option much worse, Cloud isn't really scared of Robin all that much and also beats him pretty solidly.

Other useful special moves that Mii Gunner can employ are Grenade Launcher (area of denial/zoning/edgeguarding/damage building/etc all in one!), Charge Blast (camping/one hit will send Cloud off of the stage to be edgeguarded or even KO'd at later percents), Bomb Drop (for when you aren't running Grenade Launcher), and more. Flame Pillar and Mii Missile both have their own uses. Flame Pillar is a decent area of denial tool that is more effective when an opponent is cornered (and can even be an edgeguarding tool...kind of), but Mii Missile gives you another projectile to harass Cloud with. The greatest thing about Mii Gunner is that he probably has the greatest diversity of projectile options in the entire game, more-so than Mega Man even. While none of these things are quite as silly as lemons, I would say that their combined strength gives Mii Gunner an even greater matchup against Cloud as a whole. Maybe even a 60:40 in Mii Gunner's favor, which is probably the only character in the game who can make that sort of claim against him. Which is very impressive.

Other strengths that Mii Gunner has over Mega Man are that he has more reliable KO options on top of this. Dsmash hits at a pretty solid frame 9, and Fsmash is decent at catching landing options and bad reads/rolls. Usmash is also good in that it hits on frame 11, but it is probably on par or slightly worse than Mega Man's Usmash (which comes out 1 frame earlier). Plus, as explained above, Mii Gunner's edgeguarding options are actually more superior than Mega Man's overall. Mega Man does have a way better Bair, and his Nair/Metal Blade are still pretty good, but other than that, Mii Gunner has an easier time shutting down Cloud's recovery options.

However, like Mega Man, Mii Gunner isn't that stellar at CQC. Maybe even slightly worse, since the lack of lemons and fast frame data hurts. One Cloud gets in, there isn't much that Mii Gunner can do about it. Mega Man at least has amazing grab range, good throws, and stuff like Leaf Shield to help him out a bit. But Mii Gunner lacks these things. Mii Gunner also has less aerial mobility, but better ground speed. Recovery-wise, Mii Gunner is actually pretty close to Mega Man (if you are running Lunar Launch), but probably a little bit worse. You can switch Lunar Launch out for Arm Rocket, but I don't recommend it for this fight, as having as many edgeguarding tools as possible against Cloud is more important. And while Uair is nice/can KO, Mega Man's Air Shooter is probably better."


"One major problem with Mii Gunner?

Massive amounts of controversy tournament-wise.

Sooo...yeah. *shrugs*"
 
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xIvan321

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I disagree that crash bomber can't always be shielded, that is easy. But a good megaman will either set up on you (leaf shield + metal blade in hand) or get into pellet range and start pelting you. Ftilt-ftilt-nair is a true combo if you get hit by an approaching megaman, which launches you pretty far even at low percents. Mega's throws send you far, his grab is great, the aforementioned pellet combo, metal blade setups into grab, bair is great A2A attack... all this goes to say that mega can get you offstage easily. He is also one of the best edgeguarders, especially against cloud's recovery.

That said, his weight works against him, allowing high damage combos from cloud and for finishing touch setups at marginaly higher percentages. Your mobility is above average, combined with the giant buster sword means you can often power through zoning.

I'd say you want to keep your limit charged for the mobility bonus, only using FT or Cross Slash if you know it will hit. Whenever your limit is charged, MM has to zone more respectfully because nothing trades well with LB Beam Blade.

Overall, I'd say the matchup is close to even, swinging either way depending on the stage. Battlefield is good for mega because the platforms are going to impede your approach against pellets. Additionally, the bigger the stage the better for Mega because mega is going to be dying at the blastzone, whereas most of cloud's deaths should be edgeguards. Mega and cloud are also about the same weight, so thats a wash there.

We also share the same d-tilt =D
I barely noticed this post, and wow this is very dated. It still turns out I was still correct about Crash Bomber not interacting with shields (wish I still had the link to it, but trust me, it doesn't.) and there was a whole lot more we all learned about the MU. Its one MU that sticks out from being equal. Stages Cloud is considered best at, Mega Man is mostly better than him (except for Town & City, where Cloud can beat Mega Man.) especially when Cloud doesn't have any of the limit stat buffs. With poor aerial acceleration, he tends to have difficulty with being juggled into up air strings, and playing aggressive against Mega Man is exactly what a Mega Man player wants in this match up. Cloud doesn't have a lot of things safe in this match up, so without spacing Mega Man carefully and holding limit as long as you should just for the stats, you get up tilted by Mega Man, since his Mega-Upper is the neutral game.

In very brief, Cloud is not allowed to play aggressive against Mega Man. All the flashy stuff aggressive stuff off stage can be ignored especially at times when Mega Man recovers higher and also Cloud's dash attack clanks with pellets, the same way it does in the Sonic v Mega Man MU for instance. Playing a bit patient and holding limit is key in my opinion. I personally give it a fair rating that Mega Man has at least a slight advantage. Could be a bit tougher for Cloud, but who knows, only time will tell, but as it stands its pretty clear the Mega Man MU is not easy for Cloud, but I believe its doable still.
 

Hedgehog_

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For me bad matchups are characters that get kills/combos fromgrabs. Also item spam characters are annoying
 

PkaB

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I think that :4cloud: loses to:4bayonetta: even after the nerfs , and this is why. When Cloud is in limit mode he falls faster. This lets Bayo combo him much easier. Also when Cloud is offstage Bayo can just throw out nair and hold it down. The hitbox is huge and it sends at a great angle for gimping. Even if Cloud air dodges the attack, it stays out long enough to hit him anyways. So if Cloud is offstage without a jump it pretty much means he is dead. So with Bayo forcing Cloud out of his limit mode and how good her gimp is makes it a hard matchup for Cloud
 

Djmarcus44

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I made some posts a while back about :4megaman: and somewhere else about Cloud's MU's with them.


"Unlike Villager, Mega Man has constant hitboxes that move forward in the air (neutral air). On top of that, he has more aerial mobility than most characters in the game. This combination of tools allows him to bob and weave away from Cloud's large hitboxes, and apply constant pressure of his own. Additionally, this gives Mega Man a pretty good recovery as well, despite being heavy-ish in weight. While this does make him susceptible to combos, it ensures that Mega Man will live longer against Cloud's LB Cross Slash. Plus, it improves his edgeguarding abilities, which is very useful against Cloud's poor recovery.

Mega Man typically has a weakness of extremely poor killing options, but this is somewhat negated in the Cloud MU, since all he really has to do is edgeguard Cloud after sending him off of the stage, which makes things much easier for Mega Man. And because Mega Man's kit is mostly based around projectiles, it allows him to directly contest Cloud's ability to camp with Limit Break, which forces Cloud to play on his terms. And unlike Villager, Mega Man's Uair and Metal Blade allow him to cover more areas, which is particularly useful against platform camping.

Overall, this means that Mega Man generally has some sort of tool to answer to both a camping Cloud, AND an approaching Cloud...which is something that not many characters can say that they have. And because Cloud lacks a reflector and a super good projectile, this means that Mega Man can get away with more things when fighting Cloud as opposed to fighting other top tier characters. And Mega Man, despite his flaws, has a really good moveset when it comes to edgeguarding Cloud. Which gives Mega Man a slight edge in the matchup. The only thing he really has to worry about is CQC, which Mega Man typically wants to avoid no matter what anyways. But other than that, Mega Man actually has an edge in this fight.


The main difference between Villager and Mega Man is that Villager wants to set up camp, while Mega Man doesn't. Mega Man wants to play a mid-range game. Cloud is a character that has answers to both campers (Limit Break) and CQC (Buster Sword). However, one of Cloud's very few weaknesses is that his mid-range game can be exploited by a very few select characters. Cloud's other big weakness is that he is very susceptible to being edgeguarded. Mega Man falls perfectly within both of these categories. And it is also why people say that Sheik has a slight edge against Cloud too, since she can also play mid-range and edgeguard very well (though Sheik can pretty much do almost everything well tbh).

This would also explain Cloud's even matchup with Diddy Kong, since while Diddy has the edge at mid-range thanks to his bananas, his CQC and "camping" (he shouldn't) will fall short due to Cloud's Buster Sword and Limit Break. Thankfully for Diddy though, his amazing frame data will still allow him to be very proficient against Cloud in CQC. But he has to be really careful with Cloud's range. The same can mostly be said for Mario, since while he has better edgeguarding tools, his mid-range game can't really compare to Diddy's due the the lack of bananas (he's still decent at mid-range though). He also has less range on his normal attacks, but has more combo-ability. But unlike Mega Man or Sheik, neither Diddy nor Mario really have the right tools to directly say that they have an "edge" against Cloud.

Although admittedly, Mega Man's and Sheik's "egde" over Cloud is a very small one. Like a 55:45 advantage or something. And it certainty doesn't help that both characters are very hard to play in comparison to Cloud. Mega Man especially, since he is notoriously hard to play."

---

"Also, another character I have been experimenting with and finding success in is actually...Mii Gunner.

Mii Gunner has a really excellent set of tools to contest against Cloud. Fair being one of the most important ones. Not only does it provide huge horizontal spacing (like Mega Man's lemons), but it also knocks the opponent back unlike lemons, AND it pushes you backwards by a lot if you control it to do so. And unlike Villager's slingshot, it has far less landing lag, though a bit more than Mega Man's lemons. It basically takes the best elements of Mega Man's lemons and Villager's slingshot, and then slaps them together to create a really potent move overall. The only unfortunate thing is that, unlike Mega Man's lemons, it can only be used in the air and it can only be fired one at a time. Which makes it more predictable to deal with.

Aside from Fair, Mii Gunner's got a number of good special moves that can also deal with Cloud pretty well. Lunar Launch is actually effective at edgeguarding if used properly, as it covers an angle rarely any other projectile can (straight down), and it also sends the opponent horizontally. Meaning that, if Cloud is directly below you and is off stage, a perfectly fired Lunar Launch could spell the end for him. This is pretty effective, as Cloud is forced to recover low in a lot of situations. Robin also has something like this (Elwind), but not only is that option much worse, Cloud isn't really scared of Robin all that much and also beats him pretty solidly.

Other useful special moves that Mii Gunner can employ are Grenade Launcher (area of denial/zoning/edgeguarding/damage building/etc all in one!), Charge Blast (camping/one hit will send Cloud off of the stage to be edgeguarded or even KO'd at later percents), Bomb Drop (for when you aren't running Grenade Launcher), and more. Flame Pillar and Mii Missile both have their own uses. Flame Pillar is a decent area of denial tool that is more effective when an opponent is cornered (and can even be an edgeguarding tool...kind of), but Mii Missile gives you another projectile to harass Cloud with. The greatest thing about Mii Gunner is that he probably has the greatest diversity of projectile options in the entire game, more-so than Mega Man even. While none of these things are quite as silly as lemons, I would say that their combined strength gives Mii Gunner an even greater matchup against Cloud as a whole. Maybe even a 60:40 in Mii Gunner's favor, which is probably the only character in the game who can make that sort of claim against him. Which is very impressive.

Other strengths that Mii Gunner has over Mega Man are that he has more reliable KO options on top of this. Dsmash hits at a pretty solid frame 9, and Fsmash is decent at catching landing options and bad reads/rolls. Usmash is also good in that it hits on frame 11, but it is probably on par or slightly worse than Mega Man's Usmash (which comes out 1 frame earlier). Plus, as explained above, Mii Gunner's edgeguarding options are actually more superior than Mega Man's overall. Mega Man does have a way better Bair, and his Nair/Metal Blade are still pretty good, but other than that, Mii Gunner has an easier time shutting down Cloud's recovery options.

However, like Mega Man, Mii Gunner isn't that stellar at CQC. Maybe even slightly worse, since the lack of lemons and fast frame data hurts. One Cloud gets in, there isn't much that Mii Gunner can do about it. Mega Man at least has amazing grab range, good throws, and stuff like Leaf Shield to help him out a bit. But Mii Gunner lacks these things. Mii Gunner also has less aerial mobility, but better ground speed. Recovery-wise, Mii Gunner is actually pretty close to Mega Man (if you are running Lunar Launch), but probably a little bit worse. You can switch Lunar Launch out for Arm Rocket, but I don't recommend it for this fight, as having as many edgeguarding tools as possible against Cloud is more important. And while Uair is nice/can KO, Mega Man's Air Shooter is probably better."


"One major problem with Mii Gunner?

Massive amounts of controversy tournament-wise.

Sooo...yeah. *shrugs*"
This is a very good post but, I have to make a couple of minor corrections. According to the data from Smash Highlights, Mii Gunner actually has more grab range than Mega Man. While Gunner's CQC isn't great, Mii Gunner's options are faster than Mega Man's options. Gunner has a frame 3 reflector that can break combos. Gunner also has a frame 5 jab that is great for mixups along with a frame 5 up tilt that is great for juggling and killing an opponent.
 
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54BR3 WU1F

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I think that :4cloud: loses to:4bayonetta: even after the nerfs , and this is why. When Cloud is in limit mode he falls faster. This lets Bayo combo him much easier. Also when Cloud is offstage Bayo can just throw out nair and hold it down. The hitbox is huge and it sends at a great angle for gimping. Even if Cloud air dodges the attack, it stays out long enough to hit him anyways. So if Cloud is offstage without a jump it pretty much means he is dead. So with Bayo forcing Cloud out of his limit mode and how good her gimp is makes it a hard matchup for Cloud
That's not entirely true because yesterday, I literally just learned how to play as :4cloud: and I beat by friend (a :4bayonetta: ) main. After a few minutes playing, I basically learned how to play :4cloud: really easy. I beat them about 3 times in a row too.
 

xIvan321

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For me bad matchups are characters that get kills/combos fromgrabs. Also item spam characters are annoying
I can understand why that is for the grab part since Cloud can't really do too much against shielding opponents and if they shield your attacks, you can get grabbed to death combo. Cloud is rather unsafe against shielding opponents and up against other defensive tactics. You do what you must and try to draw the opponent to you first instead of coming to them like charging more limit for instance and shred up their approaches since this is how Cloud plays best.
 

_SoRa_

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That's not entirely true because yesterday, I literally just learned how to play as :4cloud: and I beat by friend (a :4bayonetta: ) main. After a few minutes playing, I basically learned how to play :4cloud: really easy. I beat them about 3 times in a row too.
That has nothing to do, your friend didnt played the MU right lr didnt know how to play vs Cloud, winning the MU doesn't mean insta-win
 

54BR3 WU1F

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What would a Cloud and Shulk matchup go? I've been wondering since there's this guy at the tournament I go to and he mains Shulk because well, counter, and I haven't tried beating him with Cloud. Would it be possible to actually beat him? (Statistical wise)
 

Liam3

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His worst matchups are against characters that can actually get in and combo him like Fox and Pika (Sheik too but to a far lesser extent, shes mobile but Cloud is just as mobile and outspaces her easily), characters that can mess with his recovery and gimp him like Mario, Doc, Greninja, or Marth. He also doesn't do to well against characters that can effectively outspace him like Toon Link (Link too but he gets comboed to hell and back and is slow so it doesn't matter)

Mario is probably his absolute worst matchup, he combos him hard, has a great projectile, and ****s up his recovery pretty badly
What about luigi matchup? or meta knight?
 

54BR3 WU1F

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Cloud v Fox is a pretty even matchup for Cloud because they both have equal options in order to punish each other. To win, it comes down to well-timed attacks along with reads since both characters rely on decently hard reads with their smashes and Cloud with his Limit. Personally, I think Fox might have a slight advantage with his speed and agility because that's how I usually end up winning on FG or in friendlies or sometimes in competition. Along with this, Fox also has a rediculous recovery and Fox players tend to take a risk and use a back air in order to slam a Cloud into the side of the stage and plus there's always the hated (or beloved) Fair > Footstool spike. Other than this, both characters basically have the same agenda meaning that they both want to juggle their opponent and then finish them off with either limit or a jump-cancelled up smash.
 

MudkipUniverse

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he has a few matchups that can get rather troublesome outside of these three but they're all still super close IMO

losing:
:4bayonetta::4sheik::4diddy:
 

MudkipUniverse

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komo beats aba
leo forces aba onto MK
mewtwo mains think it's probably losing
cloud has a thicc uair
i don't see it at all
 

MudkipUniverse

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NNID
VolcanicAsh
anyone can gimp cloud
cloud doesn't have anything to challenge dtilt lol? his aerials are thicc af. top level clouds believe both that this matchup is fine for them, and have the results & wins to prove that. it's nothing horribad for mewtwo but it's not super free
 

MERPIS

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 28, 2015
Messages
1,700
Location
Prince Edward Island
NNID
Catboog
anyone can gimp cloud
cloud doesn't have anything to challenge dtilt lol? his aerials are thicc af. top level clouds believe both that this matchup is fine for them, and have the results & wins to prove that. it's nothing horribad for mewtwo but it's not super free
Now I know you are full of old rope. I won't have any of that, good sir. Cloud's thing's are smaller than you think. But his uair, is a size of a whole bowser, none of cloud's aerials hit where mewtwo is going to be when he wants to dtilt cloud, unless you want that crisp timing on his nair, where it JUST hits mewtwo and dtilt just misses cloud. Also mewtwo exploit's cloud's recovery the best among most characters aside from Luigi and Mario and MK. Mewtwo's nair catches climhazard right out of the transition upwards.
 
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Chkn•Tendi

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 1, 2017
Messages
1
If I might interject. I believe that cloud is even if not unfavored when facing a Lucina. Yes its my main so es Im a little biased but I have a lot of experience in this matchup. If you are positioning yourself right and reading your opponent correctly you can easily get an uptilt off on an aerially approaching cloud should he be using something like dair. And with proper spacing you can easily chip away at him until you can go for a grab, toss him off and go for an edgeguard (Lucina's speciality mind you) because even one hit off stage has probably doomed a Cloud without limit even if it isnt a Lucina Bair. The improtant thing about this matchup is to respect Cloud's sword range with his smash attacks hut to be quick and eager to read and punish. As long as you're fast and a clear thinker Cloud isnt a bad matchup as Lucina. It is in fact on of my least stressful in bracket. As for fox. Welllll I still need to find a counterpick for him <.< frickin hard to space speed demon with no lag
 

MERPIS

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 28, 2015
Messages
1,700
Location
Prince Edward Island
NNID
Catboog
If I might interject. I believe that cloud is even if not unfavored when facing a Lucina. Yes its my main so es Im a little biased but I have a lot of experience in this matchup. If you are positioning yourself right and reading your opponent correctly you can easily get an uptilt off on an aerially approaching cloud should he be using something like dair. And with proper spacing you can easily chip away at him until you can go for a grab, toss him off and go for an edgeguard (Lucina's speciality mind you) because even one hit off stage has probably doomed a Cloud without limit even if it isnt a Lucina Bair. The improtant thing about this matchup is to respect Cloud's sword range with his smash attacks hut to be quick and eager to read and punish. As long as you're fast and a clear thinker Cloud isnt a bad matchup as Lucina. It is in fact on of my least stressful in bracket. As for fox. Welllll I still need to find a counterpick for him <.< frickin hard to space speed demon with no lag
Cloud outranges, juggles, and combos Lucina half to death, her only real way to get the upper hand is to play VERY carefully.
 
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Rust punch

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 18, 2016
Messages
6
Look cloud will always have a winning strat against most if not all characters the true essence of the MU lies in the details I've practiced this MU (me being a mario main) to the point of exhaustion and there is still one specific play style of cloud that mario simply doesn't defeat I suppose there might be some trick to it but I believe a similar situation occurs with the majority of the ssb4 characters truth is I find it hard to believe that cloud has a counter character in ssb4.
 
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