Clones for Brawl

[Zenigame]

No they don't. They squeeze in an extra four or five characters for the price of one unique one. And if you knew anything about clones, you'd know that they play completely different from whomever they're cloned after just by having different physics and tweaks on their moves. Aesthetically, they're the same, but if you thing about it, they're just as unique as any other character.

I'm not even sure it is at the expense of one unique character. Clones are simply last minute additions, with similar moves that are tweaked just enough to produce a moveset with an entirely different feel when playing (when implemented properly).

Plus, they give the user different models/sounds to choose from when they want to use a given moveset.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Up until now, I have never been a supporter for clones. However, considering the little info supposedly from Famitsu, we might have some. Supposedly, it takes more than two months to make a character model from scratch complete with nonglitchy animations and what not. Please tell me if this wrong.

Considering that there's a two month delay, there's not a lot of time to make original characters from scratch. My guess is that some of the time will be spent of making clones since they require far less time to make. Now, you might be thinking, "Sakurai said no clones.". Well, you have been wrongly informed. He never stated that. Look here so I don't have to repeat myself.

Now, clones aren't a bad thing and have been done for years. For example, Ken in SFII is a clone of Ryu and there are a number of clones in Tekken. The thing with Tekken is that they put them under the guise of alternate costumes. They're really clones who were squashed into their original character's spot to save screen space.

One could say that this is Smash, not Street Fighter or Tekken. That is true but who's to say that they will not do the same as well?

The characters that become clones should must agree to the following conditions:

1. Be from the same series as the character being cloned.
2. You cannot be another form of the character being cloned.

One could say that the clones are a waste of space and shouldn't be in. Considering that Melee had like six clones, taking them out would give Melee a much smaller roster. You would be taking over a quarter of the characters on the roster.

Overall, we should support clones as long as the conditions mentioned are met.

Here are some characters that might be clones:

Wolf
Luigi(If he wasn't already in.)
Kumatora
Baby Mario Bros.
Girl Pokemon Trainer
Falco
Young Link

Actually there won't be clones in Brawl period.

 

[El_Duderino]

Just because Sakurai and his team have had 27 months to produce this game does not mean they coasted the whole way through and filled the roster with unique characters. If that were the case, we'd have the game right now, because it would have come out on December 3rd.

Here's the reality of the situation. Imagine a lot of people working an average of 80 hours a week. A good number of them bring sleeping bags to the office. They smell bad. They're subsisting on vending machine goods and coffee. Features they wanted to put in 27 months ago have long since been tossed out due to increasingly severe time constraints. There is no option but to release this game on Februrary 10, and they know it.

So put yourself in their shoes. Some characters are getting in only if their animations are recycled, or they're not getting in at all. I believe the former will be the case, just like it was for Melee. The characters which were originally clones were undoubtedly on top of the to-do list, and they've probably got new moves. But Brawl will probably have its own set of clones.

 

[RegalBuster]

Just because Sakurai and his team have had 27 months to produce this game does not mean they coasted the whole way through and filled the roster with unique characters. If that were the case, we'd have the game right now, because it would have come out on December 3rd.

Here's the reality of the situation. Imagine a lot of people working an average of 80 hours a week. A good number of them bring sleeping bags to the office. They smell bad. They're subsisting on vending machine goods and coffee. Features they wanted to put in 27 months ago have long since been tossed out due to increasingly severe time constraints. There is no option but to release this game on Februrary 10, and they know it.

So put yourself in their shoes. Some characters are getting in only if their animations are recycled, or they're not getting in at all. I believe the former will be the case, just like it was for Melee. The characters which were originally clones were undoubtedly on top of the to-do list, and they've probably got new moves. But Brawl will probably have its own set of clones.

Except for one fact about sakurai he loathes clones, he hated them in Brawl, If you hate something...would you put it in the sequal, no you wouldn't.

 

[Big-Cat]

Someone show me where Sakurai says he hates clones.

 

[Gypsy Lee]

I would just like to bring up that all these delays and added development time has been going to the online feature, so the argument that they have had a very long time is nullified. Also, just because you have extra time doesn't mean they won't add in clones. If they feel that the roster needs beefing up a bit and they're nearing the deadline, hell, throw in a few clones.

One other thing- I've noticed the majority of people who are arguing against the inclusion of clones haven't even been on these boards for more than two months... I'm not saying that it makes their words any less meaningful, but I think some people haven't stopped and read things such as SamuraiPanda's translation thread or debunked argument threads...

 

[OysterMeister]

I love clones, but I'm not sure I agree with the two conditions listed at the start of this thread.

Fist off, alternate version of characters aren't inherently redundant of boring. I think this opinion is mostly just a holdover of old Dr. Mario-inspired bias. Yeah, Dr. Mario was a bit redundant, but that's not because he was an alternate version of Mario, it's because he had near-identical stats. Character like Paper Mario, who have the potential to be radically different, shouldn't be discounted while they have the potential to be fun.

And I also don't think the characters have to be from the same series. Ganondorf is my favorite clone, and I don't think cloning him from Zelda or Link or Sheik would have resulted in anywhere near as good a character. The question shouldn't be where the moveset comes from, it should be whether or not the moveset works.

 

[RegalBuster]

It's shouldn't be who the clones is off, but why there would be clones in brawl in the first place.

 

[El_Duderino]

Someone show me where Sakurai says he hates clones.

That's the thing. He's never said anything of the sort. It's a rumor that's become pseudo-fact because many people here wish it were true and keep repeating it as if it were.

 

[Koji Syntax]

Clones take a frame and give you a look through a different glass. They offer a different feel, and generally have different stats (maybe not so much in Dr.Mario's case, but c'mon, isn't he just THAT badass). I primarily use Falco, and I have because I liked Fox's moveset, but I thought that Fox lacked power and had a tad too much speed for his own good.

On the case of a young Link character. Zelda has been my favorite series from the beginning. And in most of his games except for.... get this THREE (Four if you count Link's Awakening) he has been a "young" link. Therefore, young Link to me is essentially more of a Link than the TP Link, or OoT link. As for Windwaker link.... Him having a cel-shaded style, maybe not. But I believe if her were in Brawl graphics it wouldn't look that weird.

As for clones returning... Maybe not, but most of the clones have good opportunities for de-cloning, or Luigifying.

Also, I totally support Wolf for Brawl, especially in the case that Falco doesn't return.

 

[Zorya]

Falco kinda needs to disappear.....forever.....

 

[Koji Syntax]

Falco kinda needs to disappear.....forever.....

Yeah.... well your mom [highlight, ctrl+c, ctrl+v]kinda needs to disappear.....forever.....

But as I stated, if Falco is ousted... I beleive Wolf would be a more than adequate replacement, and should have been falco in melee...

 

[Iceman12]

Brawl is most likely getting clones, at least of a few characters. With Sakurai sounding so much different all the time about the roster, sometimes implying sub 36 characters, and sometimes implying 40+. Personally, I think sub 40 characters in Brawl would be an insult and slap in the face to everyone who has waited for this game for so long.

 

[SirroMinus1]

A screw is missing from your head.

 

[Zorya]

Yeah.... well your mom [highlight, ctrl+c, ctrl+v]kinda needs to disappear.....forever.....
But as I stated, if Falco is ousted... I beleive Wolf would be a more than adequate replacement, and should have been falco in melee...

ya know? that hurt. that really, really hurt......

 

[Koji Syntax]

I hope it did... *goes and makes out with my mop.... I mean girlfriend*

 

[Iceman12]

A screw is missing from your head.

So your saying you wouldnt consider a sub 36 character an insult? Or just the fact that I actually would support clones makes me insane?

 

[shadenexus18]

I'm for clones in Brawl. Just as long as they have a great Luigified moveset, and it's based off of a character from the SAME series. You know, Mario & Luigi, Fox & Wolf, Lucas & Ness. And not that stuff from Melee this time around. Only example I can give you is C.Falcon & Ganondorf.

Meh....and I wanted Dark Link to have a Luigified moveset, but he only got in as clothing for the Keebler Elf. Oh well, fiddle sticks....

 

[Big-Cat]

Clones take a frame and give you a look through a different glass. They offer a different feel, and generally have different stats (maybe not so much in Dr.Mario's case, but c'mon, isn't he just THAT badass). I primarily use Falco, and I have because I liked Fox's moveset, but I thought that Fox lacked power and had a tad too much speed for his own good.

They also let you play as a character that wouldn't stand much of a chance of having its own moveset in the first place.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

That's the thing. He's never said anything of the sort. It's a rumor that's become pseudo-fact because many people here wish it were true and keep repeating it as if it were.

Ok Mr. Smartie. Explain to me why most of the clones or partial clones or clone hosts seem to have no info of their appearance so far? Yes I do mean Luigi and C. Falcon etc.

 

[WarxePB]

Ok Mr. Smartie. Explain to me why most of the clones or partial clones or clone hosts seem to have no info of their appearance so far? Yes I do mean Luigi and C. Falcon etc.

Because all of the clones were unlockable characters, and we haven't had any previously-unlockable characters revealed on the Dojo yet (that includes Falcon, as he was unlockable in Smash64).


I would personally prefer no clones being in Brawl, but it's not like I would burn the game if there were. Because, really, despite sharing the same moveset with a few tweaks, all of the clones played differently than their counterparts (even Dr. Mario).

If clones do return, I'd like to see more distinction between them to make them truly different playing styles. For example, if Roy returns, he could be the average swordsman between Marth's lightning-fast slashes and Ike's super-slow power strikes. To mix it up, he could even get some projectiles in the form of B-move fireballs.
Same with the proposed WW Link - he would have the same basic A moves, but his specials would be entirely different, which would make the character a lot different.

 

[finalark]

I really, really dislike clones. I can't help but feel that they were just half-***** characters thrown in at the last minuet for the sake of fan service.

 

[Big-Cat]

That's really not a bad thing.

 

[PRINCESS PEACH777]

i don't think that brawl will have clones

 

[El_Duderino]

Ok Mr. Smartie. Explain to me why most of the clones or partial clones or clone hosts seem to have no info of their appearance so far? Yes I do mean Luigi and C. Falcon etc.

If I knew that, I'd be on the development team, and I wouldn't be here. Some of them might be unlockables. Some of them might be on the waiting list for Dojo updates, which means we've got upwards of three months of waiting before any of this is confirmed. Sakurai might just be sitting on some of them because he changed them to a drastic degree and wants there to be a big ruckus when he finally pulls the sheet off. Or, of course, some of them could have gotten the chop.

As was pointed out before, the list of veterans that hasn't been announced is restricted to the characters that were unlockables in SSB64 and SSBM. But that's not the only pattern evident here. SSB64 had a clone. SSBM had a lot of clones. It's not a far jump to conclude that SSBB will probably have clones.

 

[Bajef8]

Ok Mr. Smartie. Explain to me why most of the clones or partial clones or clone hosts seem to have no info of their appearance so far? Yes I do mean Luigi and C. Falcon etc.

most of the clone hosts have been posted. link, mario, fox, and pikachu. and the clones and partial clones were unlockable so that's probably why they aren't on the dojo yet.

 

[Big-Cat]

How do we know that there won't be clones of Lucas or any other newcomer?

 

[Collective of Bears]

Your theory of clones fails for a few reasons:

-Sakurai said that they were going to try not to have clones (which means "No more clones" in Nintendo-speak)
-They're not working on just one character at a time, meaning that summing up a 40-ish roster wouldn't be a problem.
-Clones didn't go over very well in Melee, which may send a message to Nintendo saying, "No more clones in smash!"
-Clones were essentialy filler characters
-The clones can be decloned with a little imagination (Ganondorf Swordplay plz)
-Ness has been essentialy deconfirmed, therefore Lucas is not a clone. Hint hint?
-None of the characters announced as of now are clones.

 

[Cosine]

Ok Mr. Smartie. Explain to me why most of the clones or partial clones or clone hosts seem to have no info of their appearance so far? Yes I do mean Luigi and C. Falcon etc.

I don't know about C. Falcon, but annoucing any unlockable from melee on the Dojo as a Veteran would be a spoiler for melee, which Nintendo dosn't like, think about it, none of them have been anouced outside of interveiws

 

[Big-Cat]

-Sakurai said that they were going to try not to have clones (which means "No more clones" in Nintendo-speak)

Mr. Wright, do you have the evidence for this?

 

[vato_break]

actually i wouln't mind
but to actually have a more unique moveset i think they should have diffrent spacials and FS's

 

[Big-Cat]

Assuming clones are in, I think we can count on everyone having their own FS. Also, wouldn't it make more sense for them to share B moves but not A moves?

 

[Thirdkoopa]

@To all clone haters; Would you prefer a 40 Character roster or a 50 Character roster with 10 Of those characters being clones?
Hey kumo Long time no see, Stinks that kumatora got deconfirmed D: Anyhow i think that if he wants to put in 5-10 Clones that's fine for the "Less worthy" Characters personally, If he has to have to but i'd rather not, Interesting topic...I Could see Loiue Alex and Will (Advance wars.) Working but that might be a bit "Meh".

 

[Zoo-bellocks]

Your theory of clones fails for a few reasons:

-Sakurai said that they were going to try not to have clones (which means "No more clones" in Nintendo-speak)

No he didn't. Quit making **** up/repeating old rumours

-They're not working on just one character at a time, meaning that summing up a 40-ish roster wouldn't be a problem.

This is baseless and doesn't make any sense in relation to clones. They were never working on one character at a time in any of the previous games.

-Clones didn't go over very well in Melee, which may send a message to Nintendo saying, "No more clones in smash!"

Again, clones are added in AFTER everyone with an original move set. Whether clones "didn't go over well" or not doesn't change the fact that they're incredibly easy to make and don't take away from the rest of the game. The people who are fine with clones gain new characters and the people who don't like clones lose nothing.

-Clones were essentialy filler characters

You could also say they're bonuses.

-The clones can be decloned with a little imagination (Ganondorf Swordplay plz)

Because we all know that all Sakurai needs to do is snap his fingers and a character gets an original move set, right? No, it takes a lot of time and effort.

-Ness has been essentialy deconfirmed, therefore Lucas is not a clone. Hint hint?

Ness was supposed to be axed in the previous game, which DID have clones. Hint hint?

-None of the characters announced as of now are clones.

None of the clones were announced before Melee's release. They'll likely be unlockable. Heck, considering how late in development the game is, they could be working on clones right now.

 

[platnum]

NO CLONES!

 

[SinisterLizard]

I would just like to bring up that all these delays and added development time has been going to the online feature, so the argument that they have had a very long time is nullified. Also, just because you have extra time doesn't mean they won't add in clones. If they feel that the roster needs beefing up a bit and they're nearing the deadline, hell, throw in a few clones.

One other thing- I've noticed the majority of people who are arguing against the inclusion of clones haven't even been on these boards for more than two months... I'm not saying that it makes their words any less meaningful, but I think some people haven't stopped and read things such as SamuraiPanda's translation thread or debunked argument threads...

You suck, Gypsy. rawr

(P.S. You know who this is.)

 

[Koji Syntax]

Y'know, the fact that Fox had the landmaster instead of an arwing based final smash, with the flying and the shooting and the hurr hurr yeah, kinda says something to me about another starfox character... not necessarily a clone, but, mayhaps a luigified falco or wolf.

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

Clones is what made SSBM special. I semi support it though trashed down by Sakurai's word. If Fox was more like a Fox and Falco was more like a Marth (With a gun), it wouldn't be special. It's because they two different people who have the same or similar battle mechanics that we play and support clones.

 

[Big-Cat]

@To all clone haters; Would you prefer a 40 Character roster or a 50 Character roster with 10 Of those characters being clones?
Hey kumo Long time no see, Stinks that kumatora got deconfirmed D: Anyhow i think that if he wants to put in 5-10 Clones that's fine for the "Less worthy" Characters personally, If he has to have to but i'd rather not, Interesting topic...I Could see Loiue Alex and Will (Advance wars.) Working but that might be a bit "Meh".

Hey, Kumatora hasn't been deconfirmed yet. To tell you the truth, with Lucas and all, I've been more open to clones since I did a topic on the original journal translations.

 

[KraidGuy]

No clones for Brawl, or else Sakurai will turn this game into crap. And it would mean Ness is in.