Clones for Brawl

[Big-Cat]

Up until now, I have never been a supporter for clones. However, considering the little info supposedly from Famitsu, we might have some. Supposedly, it takes more than two months to make a character model from scratch complete with nonglitchy animations and what not. Please tell me if this wrong.

Considering that there's a two month delay, there's not a lot of time to make original characters from scratch. My guess is that some of the time will be spent of making clones since they require far less time to make. Now, you might be thinking, "Sakurai said no clones.". Well, you have been wrongly informed. He never stated that. Look here so I don't have to repeat myself.

Now, clones aren't a bad thing and have been done for years. For example, Ken in SFII is a clone of Ryu and there are a number of clones in Tekken. The thing with Tekken is that they put them under the guise of alternate costumes. They're really clones who were squashed into their original character's spot to save screen space.

One could say that this is Smash, not Street Fighter or Tekken. That is true but who's to say that they will not do the same as well?

The characters that become clones should must agree to the following conditions:

1. Be from the same series as the character being cloned.
2. You cannot be another form of the character being cloned.

One could say that the clones are a waste of space and shouldn't be in. Considering that Melee had like six clones, taking them out would give Melee a much smaller roster. You would be taking over a quarter of the characters on the roster.

Overall, we should support clones as long as the conditions mentioned are met.

Here are some characters that might be clones:

Wolf
Luigi(If he wasn't already in.)
Kumatora
Baby Mario Bros.
Girl Pokemon Trainer
Falco
Young Link

 

[vesperview]

You mean Girl Pokemon Trainer as a separate character? Oh and Star Fox has enough things from Assault to make either Falco or Wolf a non clone.

 

[Big-Cat]

You mean Girl Pokemon Trainer as a separate character? Oh and Star Fox has enough things from Assault to make either Falco or Wolf a non clone.

1. Yes, in the event she's not an alt.
2. I guess but who knows with Sakurai.

 

[chaos_Leader]

they don't make characters from scratch in two months. (educated guesses) They create a rough character template to start with and develop it into the complete character. if there is enough time, they can develop more of their rough character templates into complete, fully functional characters. That is why some characters in both Melee and 64 were cut, because there wasn't time to flush out all the details and bugs of some characters. some characters may share similar traits (ex: Charizard and Bowser) but there probably won't be clones.

Specific debunking:

Wolf/Falco: they are most likely to have a moveset derived from StarFox Assault

Baby mario bros/Kumatora: quite unlikely in the first place

Alternate PT: may function the same way, but does not mean Pokemon released will be similar.

Edit:
Young/Windwaker Link: Has unique elements from LoZ Wind Waker to differentiate him from Twilight Princess Link

 

[vesperview]

young link: quite unlikely in the first place

He isn't unlikely.

 

[Big-Cat]

He isn't unlikely.

QFT. Unless Sakurai goes even crazier on us.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

QFT. Unless Sakurai goes even crazier on us.

I don't see why people want Link in again, in a different style

 

[Big-Cat]

My guess is that there is enough stuff in the series to make the two different and some people like Young Link more than Link.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

My guess is that there is enough stuff in the series to make the two different and some people like Young Link more than Link.

Different weapons...

So what, Link gets different weapons in every game he's in...you can make 10 different Links with all the weapons he gets.

that doesn't mean we should...

 

[vesperview]

Different weapons...

So what, Link gets different weapons in every game he's in...you can make 10 different Links with all the weapons he gets.

that doesn't mean we should...

Cell Shaded Link represents the most recent Zelda generation, Wind Waker, Minish Cap and Phantom Hourglass which is even drawing comparisons with OoT, is a very smart move to include him.

 

[bballstar23]

Cell Shaded Link represents the most recent Zelda generation, Wind Waker, Minish Cap and Phantom Hourglass which is even drawing comparisons with OoT, is a very smart move to include him.

Vesper, you took my argument


I wouldn't necessarily mind clones, as long as they apply them to the right characters. If a character could easily have been given a unique moveset, the only excuse I could see is time, which shouldn't be a factor with a two month delay. Besides, I doubt characters are being added at this point.

 

[hyruleboy]

*Singing almost* Ness and kumatura are out just deal with it.....
Kumatora stood a chance till starstormmmmm.....*/sing*

 

[Shuma]

Kinda hard to balance though.

They're like 1000 per Legion, not even Pokemon trainer has so many "transformations".

 

[Wu Tang Gang]

Up until now, I have never been a supporter for clones. However, considering the little info supposedly from Famitsu, we might have some. Supposedly, it takes more than two months to make a character model from scratch complete with nonglitchy animations and what not. Please tell me if this wrong.

Considering that there's a two month delay, there's not a lot of time to make original characters from scratch. My guess is that some of the time will be spent of making clones since they require far less time to make. Now, you might be thinking, "Sakurai said no clones.". Well, you have been wrongly informed. He never stated that. Look here so I don't have to repeat myself.

Now, clones aren't a bad thing and have been done for years. For example, Ken in SFII is a clone of Ryu and there are a number of clones in Tekken. The thing with Tekken is that they put them under the guise of alternate costumes. They're really clones who were squashed into their original character's spot to save screen space.

One could say that this is Smash, not Street Fighter or Tekken. That is true but who's to say that they will not do the same as well?

The characters that become clones should must agree to the following conditions:

1. Be from the same series as the character being cloned.
2. You cannot be another form of the character being cloned.

One could say that the clones are a waste of space and shouldn't be in. Considering that Melee had like six clones, taking them out would give Melee a much smaller roster. You would be taking over a quarter of the characters on the roster.

Overall, we should support clones as long as the conditions mentioned are met.

Here are some characters that might be clones:

Wolf
Luigi(If he wasn't already in.)
Kumatora
Baby Mario Bros.
Girl Pokemon Trainer
Falco
Young Link

What the **** is wrong with you? Wolf can't be a clone. His moveset on land has NEVER been established. To assume he'd be a clone because he looks a LITTLE bit like Fox, is ****ing dumb********.

Falco will be replaced by Wolf, I'm quite sure of it.

 

[Pluvia's other account]

I don't support clones, I'd be very disappointed in Sakurai if there were some in Brawl.

 

[Storm Eagle]

I can only think of Isaac and Felix. MAYBE Marth and Sigurd. All other clones would suck.

 

[RegalBuster]

Up until now, I have never been a supporter for clones. However, considering the little info supposedly from Famitsu, we might have some. Supposedly, it takes more than two months to make a character model from scratch complete with nonglitchy animations and what not. Please tell me if this wrong.

Considering that there's a two month delay, there's not a lot of time to make original characters from scratch. My guess is that some of the time will be spent of making clones since they require far less time to make. Now, you might be thinking, "Sakurai said no clones.". Well, you have been wrongly informed. He never stated that. Look here so I don't have to repeat myself.

Now, clones aren't a bad thing and have been done for years. For example, Ken in SFII is a clone of Ryu and there are a number of clones in Tekken. The thing with Tekken is that they put them under the guise of alternate costumes. They're really clones who were squashed into their original character's spot to save screen space.

One could say that this is Smash, not Street Fighter or Tekken. That is true but who's to say that they will not do the same as well?

The characters that become clones should must agree to the following conditions:

1. Be from the same series as the character being cloned.
2. You cannot be another form of the character being cloned.

One could say that the clones are a waste of space and shouldn't be in. Considering that Melee had like six clones, taking them out would give Melee a much smaller roster. You would be taking over a quarter of the characters on the roster.

Overall, we should support clones as long as the conditions mentioned are met.

Here are some characters that might be clones:

Wolf
Luigi(If he wasn't already in.)
Kumatora
Baby Mario Bros.
Girl Pokemon Trainer
Falco
Young Link

Sakurai hates clones hence we won't get any also Luigi isn't technically a clone, and falco will get new moves and young Link is being replaced most likely by WW Link. Also Girl Trainer could have different pokemon types.

 

[error_alt_delete]

we wont get any clones I bet. we know only so much about what can happen. if there are unlockable musics, then I think we can see unlockable alt costumes. this way, you can get(some) of the characters you want(such as doctor mario) without the need of another slot.
I do not want to see clones in brawl, we need as much diveraty as possible.

 

[RegalBuster]

Exactly, i beleive the same thing.

 

[Gypsy Lee]

I can agree to this. I don't see why so many people hate clones in the first place.... They're actually nothing but beneficial TBH.

 

[El HP]

I wouldn't mind some clones as long as they good like falco or ganon.

 

[RegalBuster]

There's not gonna be clones as sakurai is making the game and he hates clones, and Falco and ganondorf will have new movesets.

 

[antimatter]

They're actually nothing but beneficial.

wrong wrong wrong wrong,
wrong wrong wrong wrong,
wrong wrong wrong wrong,
you're wrong, you're wrong,
you're wroooooooonnnnggg.

 

[Gennie]

About the famitsu article, it is likely not translated very well, especificaly the part about "more characters than we can imagine" and the 3rd parties characters part. Besides, there's still no oficcial info about if the article is real or not, just some korean website. Again, the translation was Japanese -> Korean -> English. So I wouldn't take that too literaly.

And about luigi, he's not that much of a clone, Dr. Mario was.

 

[Gypsy Lee]

wrong wrong wrong wrong,
wrong wrong wrong wrong,
wrong wrong wrong wrong,
you're wrong, you're wrong,
you're wroooooooonnnnggg.

Give me one good reason or go back to Gamefaqs where you belong.

 

[antimatter]

ive never been there. clones take away spaces from unique characters.

 

[error_alt_delete]

wrong wrong wrong wrong,
wrong wrong wrong wrong,
wrong wrong wrong wrong,
you're wrong, you're wrong,
you're wroooooooonnnnggg.

QFT, they a last minute effort to fill up space. they are only benificial ONLY if you are seriously lacking time to make a character unique. since sakurai is wiling to delay this game for online play smoothness, then he obviously has enough time too keep the characters unique.

 

[T-major]

I support clones! Mewtwo definatly needs to return!! :D

 

[Viral]

I actually don't mind clones.

Sure i'd prefer it if every character had their own unique moveset and style but i'd hate for myself or someone else to miss out on their favourite character just because they would be the same as another character.
Imagine being a Falco fan but not being able to play as him because he would have just been the same as Fox.

Granted that Falco should get his own moveset, but i'd rather just have a clone than nothing at all.

EDIT: whoops typos.

 

[Crystallion]

I support clones! Mewtwo definatly needs to return!! :D

I lol'd at that xD That's so true.

I think clones aren't really that bad if time runs out or something like that, or for more fanservice, but otherwise I'd rather have original characters and I don't think there will be clones this time around.

 

[T-major]

seriously though, Clones are OK by me, AS LONG AS there properties are different enough (think Ganondorf/Captain Falcon in melee). but even then, I would still want the character to be original.

 

[MysticKenji]

I support clones! Mewtwo definatly needs to return!! :D

You win this thread.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

I agree on the 2 points, the only thing I hated about clones in Melee were when they were the same character essentially (Y.Link, Dr. Mario and Pichu) or when they had an irrelevant moveset (Ganondorf) I eventually warmed up to Ganondorf though... but the clones I didn't mind at first were Falco and Roy.

So, what now? Well, if we can get a *few* extra characters who are clones, I won't mind. Not a lot though, and they shouldn't be the same character in a different outfit, age, evolution, art style, all of the above, etc. If they can use the extra development time, then go on, but be a bit smart on your choices.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

I agree on the 2 points, the only thing I hated about clones in Melee were when they were the same character essentially (Y.Link, Dr. Mario and Pichu) or when they had an irrelevant moveset (Ganondorf) I eventually warmed up to Ganondorf though... but the clones I didn't mind at first were Falco and Roy.

So, what now? Well, if we can get a *few* extra characters who are clones, I won't mind. Not a lot though, and they shouldn't be the same character in a different outfit, age, evolution, art style, all of the above, etc. If they can use the extra development time, then go on, but be a bit smart on your choices.

 

[AIM0001]

Different weapons...

So what, Link gets different weapons in every game he's in...you can make 10 different Links with all the weapons he gets.

that doesn't mean we should...

Yeah I'm getting pretty tired of these threads wanting another mario(Paper Mario), another Samus only Dark Samus and a Cel Shaded Link. I mean why do we need 2 of the same **** character anyway. I don't care how different the look or the move set of the character is cuz when it comes down to it it's still equals 2 of the same character which is very unessary this time around.

I don't support clones, I'd be very disappointed in Sakurai if there were some in Brawl.

Same here, I hope he doesn't bother with clones anymore. I only want Ganon and Luigi back but with different move sets and thats it. But I'm pretty sure Sakurai is doing his best not to put any clones in Brawl.

 

[gamer8]

I want Luigi back in.

 

[Zoo-bellocks]

I completely agree to more clones. Unfortunately, some people are totally ignorant and talk out of their behinds, saying things like "Sakurai hates clones" without any backing (I won't mention names, but a quick scan through this topic will find them).

People don't understand the science of clones.

Clones do not take space away from other characters. They're added AFTER all the original characters are put in and take a fraction of the time and manpower to implement. Sakurai specifically discusses this on some of the clone profiles on the old Japanese Melee site. For example, he says Ganondorf is a lucky character who they put in only after noticing he had similar body proportions to Captain Falcon. None of them would have been in otherwise, original move set or not. Clones take away nothing from the rest of the game, and they only add to it.

And lets be honest; sure, there are characters like Wolf and Dark Samus who COULD have their own move sets, but if you see it from Sakurai's point of view, it's much easier to make them clones and put the effort into other more deserving characters.

There will almost certainly be clones in Brawl whether we like it or not anyway. Where people got the idea there weren't going to be any more is beyond me.

 

[Gypsy Lee]

ive never been there. clones take away spaces from unique characters.

No they don't. They squeeze in an extra four or five characters for the price of one unique one. And if you knew anything about clones, you'd know that they play completely different from whomever they're cloned after just by having different physics and tweaks on their moves. Aesthetically, they're the same, but if you thing about it, they're just as unique as any other character.

QFT, they a last minute effort to fill up space. they are only benificial ONLY if you are seriously lacking time to make a character unique. since sakurai is wiling to delay this game for online play smoothness, then he obviously has enough time too keep the characters unique.

*facepalm*

I'm starting to hate this site....

 

[Santini]

Clones are an interesting topic. And I don't know why everyone hates them so much. I mean think about it, for clones to exist, one of two things had to happen.

1. They were planned from the beginning and only added becasue the developers got lazy and took up roster spots that should have gone to original characters.

2. They were hastily added as last minuted characters. (ex. Either Falco was a clone or he wasn't in at all). They are just additions not taking roster spots from anyone.

Well, if option 1 is true, then I can see why everyone hates them. But in reality, opition 2 was the case for Melee and, if clones are in, probably for Brawl too. So clones aren't really a bad thing.

 

[Chaosblade77]

Yeah I'm getting pretty tired of these threads wanting another mario(Paper Mario), another Samus only Dark Samus and a Cel Shaded Link. I mean why do we need 2 of the same **** character anyway. I don't care how different the look or the move set of the character is cuz when it comes down to it it's still equals 2 of the same character which is very unessary this time around.

1. Dark Samus is NOT Samus... by any means. Play Metroid Prime, any of them, and you will see that. That's like saying Wario is Mario and can't be in, since they have similar names and look similar. There was at one point a reference to Nintendo Power where Sakurai actually wanted Dark Samus playable, but that was only NP editors that made that request. While "it's" chances are slim, Dark Samus would be far from a clone if it was added into Brawl.

Now, for the first post:

2. The article you are referencing was in fact very poorly translated, especially the parts about the characters. From what I saw, the only real character reference was that there is at least one more third party character other than Sonic and Snake. Any full, unique characters would be complete by now, especially when you take point three into consideration.

3. While clones are an option for the game, this game is getting 27 months of development time, whereas Melee and SSB64 had less than 10 months. I don't think unique movesets for each character will be an issue.

4. Sakurai dislikes clones. He never said they wouldn't be in, but he has admitted to disliking them. They have had more than enough development time to create unique characters, and they have a huge team as far as we can tell, so I doubt there will be clones. A few "Luigified" characters with similar attacks here and there, but not clones.