Clinch - Grab Release Shenanigans

[PHYTO-1]

Part 1: Pummel Release into (Dtilt)
Mac's grab game is pretty bad. Mediocre frame data on his grab, and little guaranteed throw combos. Why not just rack up damage and freshen up your overused tilts with some pummels? What to do on release? A nice safe dtilt.

This thread is just to show what characters can be hit with a dtilt because every character's release distance is different of course. Dtilt is no way guaranteed- but we all know how safe it is.

Dtilt

• 

Ftilt

• 

Ftilt (2nd hit only)

• 

Jab

• 

None

• 

I also suggest jump-cancelling your KO punch should you connect the dtilt- just to get that extra distance thats needed to connect.

Part 2: Releasing by the edge

Pummel Release:
If you pummel release chars by the edge they will fall straight down and be in release animation (which last only half a second) and fall at their respective speed. Most chars can easily be bair'd for a stage spike if they quickly double-jump back to the ledge. Don't forget-- most people will be mashing buttons to escape your grab so anyone with slow aerials or abysmal recoveries can easily be gimped even with a simple footstool should they accidentally buffer an action. Slip Edge AT works here.

Into Water (Delfino Plaza):
on the pummel release they'll fall into the water and are easily susceptible to a free dsmash or dtilt what have you.

Air Release:
Some chars normal release distances are the right distance for a non-guaranteed side b.

can be done at the edge of platforms like on lylat cruise / delfino plaza from one platform to another. can also be done at the edge of any stage- total suicide of course but pretty hype if you land it.

Some sloped platforms, like the [ \ - / ] formation on delfino can increase the chances of connecting side b hits. If you grab at the inner edge of the sloped platform and air release him- he cannot act out until he lands on the top platform. His only option is to shield it and you'll land far from him anyhow. Even if you hit his shield from underneath him, at least you're building KO meter.

Part 3: Character specific shenanigans

Air release into Dash Up B. Easy guaranteed kill setup.
Jigglypuff has a weird release animation in which she is released very close by. This is close enough for mac to run up and jc up B. Only thing jiggz can do is whiff a rest (super punishable). Has been like this since Ver 1. surprised it hasnt been patched.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

Very much so useful, once again. Where do you find these things?

I will be using this now for grab releases; I used to just pummel about three times then down throw and hope to god they didn't react or just did it for the damage lol

 

[PHYTO-1]

Very much so useful, once again. Where do you find these things?

I will be using this now for grab releases; I used to just pummel about three times then down throw and hope to god they didn't react or just did it for the damage lol

I've solo mained mac since the game's release and its my quest to find every and any tool available to help our metagame. I've labbed tons of things regardless of how situational they might be. Now that DLC chars are over, I feel now is the time to post things. I have many more ideas for threads.

At low %s it is better to just dthrow for damage. Remember to use dash-roll cancelled grabs or dash attack cancelled grabs to increase your grab distance.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

I've solo mained mac since the game's release and its my quest to find every and any tool available to help our metagame. I've labbed tons of things regardless of how situational they might be. Now that DLC chars are over, I feel now is the time to post things. I have many more ideas for threads.

At low %s it is better to just dthrow for damage. Remember to use dash-roll cancelled grabs or dash attack cancelled grabs to increase your grab distance.

Remind me how to do those two grab techs. I'm not certain I have seen posts about those, unless you made one.

 

[PHYTO-1]

Remind me how to do those two grab techs. I'm not certain I have seen posts about those, unless you made one.

dash roll cancel grab is as follows:

initial dash > shield (roll) > grab. you MUST input the roll while still in the initial dash animation, another reason to practice foxtrotting.

dash attack cancel grab is as easy as it sounds.

dash attack then super quickly press grab.

both of them can be pivotted for some nice crossups.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

dash roll cancel grab is as follows:

initial dash > shield (roll) > grab. you MUST input the roll while still in the initial dash animation, another reason to practice foxtrotting.

dash attack cancel grab is as easy as it sounds.

dash attack then super quickly press grab.

both of them can be pivotted for some nice crossups.

Will be practicing for the next few hours

thanks for giving me something to do over the weekend LOL

 

[inconspikuous]

hey phyto, good work. i'd also mention that on grass surfaces every character (i think) is in range of buffered jab after pummel release. opponent's only option in that case is shield (which will get powershielded and you will get punished).

 

[PHYTO-1]

hey phyto, good work. i'd also mention that on grass surfaces every character (i think) is in range of buffered jab after pummel release. opponent's only option in that case is shield (which will get powershielded and you will get punished).

where did you hear that from? that might be for a different character- just tried it with three different chars on three different stages-had no affect on those character at least.

 

[inconspikuous]

really? maybe they patched it on the last patch but i doubt it. my cousin borrowed my wii u, so i can't test it right now, but on grass surfaces -- eg. omega sonic, the increased traction of the grass surface makes it so that they don't slide as far away after a pummel release.

 

[PHYTO-1]

really? maybe they patched it on the last patch but i doubt it. my cousin borrowed my wii u, so i can't test it right now, but on grass surfaces -- eg. omega sonic, the increased traction of the grass surface makes it so that they don't slide as far away after a pummel release.

maybe for a char like falcon who has a slippery dash grab. it could be patched out too. perhaps it only works on specific chars

 

[tomvanharmelen]

Grab releases have been a staple of my little mac for months, they're really good!
However, I've never used Dtilt after grab releases as (regular) Fsmash and Ftilt are far more viable in my opinion.
You can safely use Fsmash if you noticed they're spamming moves, as the super armor will just ignore their attack after the grab release.
If you notice they have a faster attack or want to do something like shield, you can use Ftilt as it comes out faster and has plenty of range.
Both these moves launch opponents far enough off stage so you can follow up with Fair or any other move of your choice.

Side note: I use the Cstick on my gamepad ( I play with the wii u gamepad and only use that little screen ) to pummel them.
When they release from the grab, the Cstick automatically turns from pummeling into Fsmash if you just keep tapping it in their direction.
Alternatively, you can just hold forward and mash A until they break free for a grab release into Ftilt.

 

[jet56]

the dtilt off of grab release is in my opinion the best option. its safe on shield since its spaced at that point, and nets you the most reward. i don't like grab release ftilt or fsmash, as if its shielded you get punished. i recommend the dtilt after grab release, but if the dtilt doesn't reach, just pummel then throw.

 

[tomvanharmelen]

The problem with Dtilt is the angle it sends the opponent flying in.
Maybe at low percent, dtilt is a viable option, for example, if you have KO punch or you want to do some Dtilt combo out of it.
But, if the opponent is at a percentage where he would get launched out of follow-up range, I'd go for Ftilt or Fsmash and use the launch power and damage of those moves to get the opponent off stage ready for edge-guarding/ gimps
Just because something is safe on shield doesn't automatically mean it's the best option in all cases.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

The problem with Dtilt is the angle it sends the opponent flying in.
Maybe at low percent, dtilt is a viable option, for example, if you have KO punch or you want to do some Dtilt combo out of it.
But, if the opponent is at a percentage where he would get launched out of follow-up range, I'd go for Ftilt or Fsmash and use the launch power and damage of those moves to get the opponent off stage ready for edge-guarding/ gimps
Just because something is safe on shield doesn't automatically mean it's the best option in all cases.

DTilt>Jolt Haymaker
DTilt>Airdodge read Grab
DTilt>DTilt
DTilt>Up Smash

Personally I've used it a bit since this... Post came out and its been pretty helpful since his throws aren't useful, I can get off more damage by pummeling, and I put myself in the position I prefer with Down Tilt.

 

[tomvanharmelen]

I think you're missing the point of my post, lol.
What I meant was 'If Dtilt does NOT have a follow-up, due to the opponent being at a too high percentage' Then you can go for F-tilt or Fsmash.
I've been doing grab release into Fsmash and Ftilt for a very long time ( Youtube videos on my channel: www.youtube.com/tomvanharmelen/videos ) with great success and the times Fsmash got shielded, Ftilt as a replacement has worked, like, 90% of the time.
If they jump or roll after the grab release, nothing works.
The benefits of Ftilt and Fsmash far outweigh the risks compared to the benefits of Dtilt for me.
If you want I can compile a video with a bunch of my grab releases and post it.

 

[PHYTO-1]

The problem with Dtilt is the angle it sends the opponent flying in.
Maybe at low percent, dtilt is a viable option, for example, if you have KO punch or you want to do some Dtilt combo out of it.
But, if the opponent is at a percentage where he would get launched out of follow-up range, I'd go for Ftilt or Fsmash and use the launch power and damage of those moves to get the opponent off stage ready for edge-guarding/ gimps
Just because something is safe on shield doesn't automatically mean it's the best option in all cases.

if they are out of dtilt follow ups like fair/uair , usmash, or up b- then they should've died a long time ago. in other words- their percentage would have to be super high to not be able to follow up with one of these moves especially up b.

 

[tomvanharmelen]

That's like saying every KO punch should hit.
It won't and neither will every opponent go splat at the percentage they can at the earliest.
If they're anywhere in the 80/100% range, an Fsmash or Ftilt is pretty much a guaranteed stock, if you grab release into it.
UpB has a weird hitbox and relies on a good setup.
Why not just take the variable of DI out of the question and do Fsmash or Ftilt immediately instead of Dtilt at such high percentages to ensure taking the stock?

Again, it's pretty much dependant on where you are on stage.
If you're in the middle of the stage, Dtilt is definitely viable compared to Ftilt and Fsmash, but if you're close to the edge, I'd use that to my advantage.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

I think you're missing the point of my post, lol.
What I meant was 'If Dtilt does NOT have a follow-up, due to the opponent being at a too high percentage' Then you can go for F-tilt or Fsmash.
I've been doing grab release into Fsmash and Ftilt for a very long time ( Youtube videos on my channel: www.youtube.com/tomvanharmelen/videos ) with great success and the times Fsmash got shielded, Ftilt as a replacement has worked, like, 90% of the time.
If they jump or roll after the grab release, nothing works.
The benefits of Ftilt and Fsmash far outweigh the risks compared to the benefits of Dtilt for me.
If you want I can compile a video with a bunch of my grab releases and post it.

Well, yeah, you can do that. You also can just like down angle Forward Smash.

I was just stating something else. Sorry.

 

[tomvanharmelen]

While dFsmash might work, I think it may be slower than regular Fsmash ( Feels like that, no clue about frame data )
Plus, using dFsmash kinda defeats the purpose of using Ftilt and Fsmash for me.
My reasoning for using Ftilt and Fsmash is that they have significantly more launch power and I want to get my opponent off stage/ down a stock.
I'd be in favor of using Dtilt instead of dFsmash after grab release, haha.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

While dFsmash might work, I think it may be slower than regular Fsmash ( Feels like that, no clue about frame data )
Plus, using dFsmash kinda defeats the purpose of using Ftilt and Fsmash for me.
My reasoning for using Ftilt and Fsmash is that they have significantly more launch power and I want to get my opponent off stage/ down a stock.
I'd be in favor of using Dtilt instead of dFsmash after grab release, haha.

I understand that but I meant like, if they were to shield after the grab release, dFsmash does more shieldstun and shield damage and thus can be better.

Also, dFsmash is only 1 frame slower. How you could tell is beyond me.

 

[6FinalFlame6]

Have any of you tried using dash attack into jump-cancelled KO punch? Its a mixup people dont expect. Also at low percents, dash attack can connect into another dash attack if you dont have KO punch.

 

[inconspikuous]

my two cents: at death percentages usually dtilt>JC upB is a true combo. for mixups, I'd say ftilt is okay, albeit punishable on block. fsmash I don't agree, as it has more than enough startup to react to and it can be punished hard, especially if you're in the 'right spot', ie close to and facing the ledge. that sounds like an easy back throw to death combo to me. as a mixup for someone who spams moves to get out it may work, but then it's a hard read and i still wouldn't recommend it when there are safer options.

 

[tomvanharmelen]

The thing about grab release into, well, anything, is that you're basically either mindgaming them the entire match up til that point into doing a certain thing after the release, OR it's a guessing game and you hope that whatever you do will land.
Because it's often a guessing game, I'd go for regular Fsmash instead of dFsmash because IF it connects, the benefits outweight the risks of it not connecting.
Shield stun after regular Fsmash on shield is enough pressure and dFsmash wont break their shield either way if their shield is fresh after a grab release.

The major downside of the Dtilt after grab release is the fact that it relies on certain percentage ranges in order for it to connect into upB, plus that opponents get another chance to air dodge, DI, mash jump etc to get out of the combo.
Taking a whole move out of the equation takes a lot of the risk of the setup away.
From experience, I can tell that even if they shield the Ftilt after grab release, you can safely get away with simply throwing out another Ftilt, even if the shield is still up.
The shield pressure forces them to only get away with blocking 1 more Ftilt before they have to drop shield so it allows Little Mac to stay in control of the pace of the game.

The lack of reach on Dtilt compared to Ftilt and Fsmash is for me a risk I'm not willing to take, I'd rather use Dtilt -> upB during 'regular' play.

 

[inconspikuous]

sorry man, not trying to back you into a corner. i will agree that ftilt at fsmash have their uses in occasional mixups. that said, if it's blocked, you will get shieldgrabbed and possibly gimped. there's just too much endlag on both, even with the shieldstun.

 

[tomvanharmelen]

No worries buddy, we're just debating this thing! It's good/ healthy to shine light on all sides to get a full grasp on the concept!

A blocked Fsmash isn't as scary as it seems, due to Fsmash pushing the opponent back, often outside grab range.
If it happens, you can just jab as soon as you can to combat any grab they may try.
Ftilt is also relatively safe due to it being 2 hits, doing surprisingly much shield damage and often scares people a bit and pushes them on the defense.

Again, if you guys want, I can make a compilation of my grab release shenanigans as I have been doing it for 5 months according to my Youtube uploads.

www.youtube.com/tomvanharmelen/videos

Search for ' grab' in my video list and a bunch of them should pop up.
However, I do it frequently in matches that aren't titled grab release etc, so I can showcase more if I look for them if you like.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

non-guaranteed

i wonder if perfect pivot can open up any guaranteed follow-ups?

or maybe we can get some possible shield break mixups with dFsmash?

i also wonder about jc upsmash

also a nice mixup is to run PAST the opponent and maybe like pivot uFsmash or something. catch them in landing lag or whatever.

and how relevant is walking here to get a release followup?? zero always uses diddy dtilt -> walk forward -> fsmash. guaranteed.

i'll just have to test all of this. v interesting

 

[tomvanharmelen]

JC Usmash after grab release?
I also doubt running past opponents is fast enough, the whole thing about grab release into anything is that it's relatively fast. you cach them off guard with it. Giving an opponent more time to do anything is defeating the purpose of the whole grab release to begin with haha.

dFsmash is kinda risky because it often gets powershielded ( if they shield ) and then you're in a very bad position.
It also doesn't do enough shield damage to be too risky for the opponent, because they can get a free hit in afterwards, most of the time, this time where you get hit and launched will often be long enough to refresh their shield and the whole neutral game will get reset.

TL;DR : You'll want to minimize the amount of inputs after grab release in order to increase the chances ofactually taking the stock.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

yeah fair enough i just did some testing. nothing i said really works. i like dtilt (on the chars it works on). if you hit it, you can combo, if you hit shield, you can dFsmash and maybe get a break or big shield damage. thats all tight.

for everyones info, dtilt->dFsmash almost breaks a full shield. any pre-damage and its pretty much done. and mac has a huge shield punish in neutralB

 

[NonJohns]

So basically, down tilt is the most optimal option because it's relatively safe on shield, it's a combo starter at virtually any percent, and if you can't do a down tilt to up b go for a side tilt

 

[tomvanharmelen]

I wouldnt consider dtilt the most optimal option though and i am surprised FSmash isnt listed as an option after the release.
I tend to go for either ftilt or fsmash depending on percent and placement on stage