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Actually, don't. If I remember correctly, Whirling Fortress has a brief flash of invincibility just as the move starts, so Caping isn't recommended.
While I wanted to do a write up on Bowser and also play a couple matches against somebody on the Bowser board, I think that restarting from the Mario MU with customs is a good idea. For right now, I'll consider the Bowser MU 60:40 in's favor. While Bowser has a neutral presence, he's either gonna have to commit to moves like Ftilt for poking which are unsafe. Doc can throw pills and has more combos than Bowser. Bowser's SideB customs should make the MU less in Doc's favor: they give Bowser a quick way to close the gap.
Alongside starting from the beginning with customs, I'd also like to change my MU score for vs
To start, Mario shares Doc's customs, except for DownB/FLUDD. For his FLUDD, he has Scalding FLUDD, which deals damage, and the High Pressure FLUDD, which does more knockback in exchange for a longer charge time. Which Mario customs do you think change the MU to some extent?
or 50:50.
You think so? Care to explain?
Scalding FLUDD is too good on Mario to waste a custom on HP FLUDD, which to be frank is just a gimmick. HP FLUDD takes 5 seconds to charge to full, lacks the angling control of Default FLUDD, and is only really useful for edgeguarding (Default FLUDD is much better for combating stage control).
Awful, no. Unfavorable, maybe.So from recent experience, is it safe to say that Ness is an AWFUL matchup for Doc? There's like no safe way to get in without getting interrupted by nair or bair, and his small size makes me unable to pressure him without getting shieldgrabbed hard.
Really, now? Well, I'll be damned, I never really gave S. FLUDD a second look in favor of HP. I might have to experiment with it. That's, of course, not to discredit High-Pressure, because make no mistake, while its uses are limited compared to its competition, what it does, it does well. It's the only one of the FLUDDs to actually aid Mario's recovery, if need be. I think High-Pressure does its job well. An extreme FLUDD. More work, more payoff.
Nah, I think Doc goes even at worst in this matchup. Pills force Ness to be proactive and your SH B-air outtrades Ness really hard and has good range. Doc's SH is low enough that Ness HAS to respect this in neutral given it's one of few SH spacing aerials that Ness doesn't randomly duck under.So from recent experience, is it safe to say that Ness is an AWFUL matchup for Doc? There's like no safe way to get in without getting interrupted by nair or bair, and his small size makes me unable to pressure him without getting shieldgrabbed hard.
Nair trades are unfavorable for us (faster than our bair and does 11%'s worth of damage), and fair is disjointed, so we don't beat it. I've tried. Never thought about upB though, but that seems super risky...
<- Click to Teleport to the MU thread.
I know for a fact there's more than 3 of us but yeah I get what you mean. I don't know much about mewtwo but maybe I'll talk a bitCrossposting this from the Mario boards.
Hello, everyone. Here to let you guys know that the Mewtwo MU thread is discussing Mario this week. Hopefully this place isn't too dead to contribute. I understand Mewtwo is a character not many have experience with outside of FG so it'll mostly be impressions without too much depth to go off of. Regardless, anything is appreciated.
By extension, we'll be discussing Doc as well. Not sure how it'll go in terms of activity but worth a shot. Let's get all 3 Doc mains talking.
This is late I know, but still:
Matchup: Vs Luigi
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I'll be quick here since most of the discussion on Luigi was already explained. I might update this later though.
Attributes: Luigi has one of the highest jumps in the game, a relatively faster dash than Doc, one of the worst air speeds in the game, and his trademark traction. Luigi's air speed helps us edgeguard him if he's knocked offstage. Luigi weighs in at 97, being very slightly below Mario and Dr. Mario.
Notes: In neutral, remember that if Luigi is using bair, nair, or uair to approach, he has to commit to those moves since they lack the quick ending lag of dair and fair. However, if Luigi doesn't autocancel any of his aerials not named bair or nair, he'll be stuck in landing lag. Punish him there. His bair is as strong as yours, but is very punishable if Luigi misses or is blocked.
Generally, Luigi has a better rushdown game than Mario and you. Don't give him the chance to throw you: If you get thrown, DI towards Luigi to avoid Dairs or any other setup (Not really avoiding, but reducing his potential followups).
I mentioned earlier that some Luigis think that Dthrow to Fair x2 is a true combo. It isn't at low percents, so UpB if they get greedy but be aware it's a true combo later on. Dthrow to fair to uair is a true combo, however. Also try to tech dair if he spikes you onstage, because dair can lead into other attacks.
As HeroMystic pointed out though, you need to watch out for Cyclone gimps, usually setup by Dthrow. Just don't get thrown near the edge, and try to DI towards Luigi in that case.
Luigi's kill moves are like yours. Bair is like yours, but way riskier if it misses. Nair is guaranteed from Dthrow, but it has to be fresh and around 160.
Luigi Offstage:
If Luigi is edgeguarding you, then try to avoid his bair and other aerial attacks. He might use Cyclone to read your airdodges however, so I'll need more testing on recovering on Luigi. Possibly you can trade with Luigi on Cyclone, but remember that the Cyclone gimp is followed by any of Luigi's attacks, not by strictly Dthrow. (Or at least that video shows)
Luigi's recovery is pretty varied. While his low airspeed can be a hindrance, Luigi is gifted with long, floaty jumps. Cyclone can be used after a double jump or mashed on it's own to greatly increase Luigi's vertical distance. Green Missile is used for horizontal movement, though it can misfire 1/10 in this game. Super Jump Punch is low priority, and moves Luigi up without any horizontal movement, but can sweetspot the ledge either way.
When you have Luigi offstage, it's easier. Despite his good recovery, he lacks high priority moves to discourage you from attacking him. You can always cape the Luigi Missile, but for Cyclone out of jump, watch for when Luigi is done spinning, and hit him with any move of your choice, preferably Tornado.
Securing the KO:
When Luigi's near the kill percents, here's what you can do.
Bair: The quickest, but don't forget that Luigi's bair is much like yours except it ends much later than yours.
Tornado: Offstage, Luigi is vulnerable to this move. Take out his low priority recovery and send him away!
Any other stuff (Smashes, UpB, etc): Always try to send Luigi at a horizontal angle. This'll force the Luigi to use his Cyclone to recover from below, and he's incredibly vulnerable after Cyclone ends. Luigi using Green Missile to recover horizontally is easily reacted to, though you'll just have to hope they don't get the misfire.
Tldr: Doc has better neutral than Luigi who has to wade in and out. Though, Luigi is better upclose and that Cyclone gimp
My Opinion: 40:60 or 45:55 being generous, since Luigi can kill us quicker near the edge than we can, though Luigi is pretty vulnerable recovering too. We need to focus on making sure Luigi makes mistakes while approaching since his neutral is iffy.
General Opinion: 40:60 - 45:55
Moves to look out for:
DThrow: This is self-explanatory. Luigi's throw is at a fixed knockback unlike Mario and Doc's, so he'll always get combos. Needless to say, just make sure he doesn't grab you in the first place or else you'll be subject to a million followups. If you get grabbed DI towards Luigi to minimize the amount of followups he can do.
Bair: Same deal as Mario and yours, but Luigi's can kill like Doc's, though it's ending lag in the air is atrocious. Anytime he misses this or is blocked, punish him. Please.
Fair: Luigi has really fast ending lag after this, not mention it knocks you away. Use something like bair or Tornado to stop it. As a side note, if the Luigi screws up and this is not autocanceled, punish Luigi.
Dair: Luigi's meteor is worth looking at for several reasons. It has really fast ending lag, so Luigi can spike you onstage and immediately followup afterwards. The second use is the other hitbox where you get sent at a diagonal angle. Pretty much you'll need to stop Luigi from using this when he's ready to kill. An USmash from below can sometimes hit Luigi, but you'll need to be away from Luigi in order to knock him out of dair. Once again, if Luigi lands without autocanceling you'll need to punish him immediately.
Nair: Luigi's sex kick is one of the strongest in the game, and sends you at a vertical angle, prime for juggling. Most Luigis will try to use it as an KO option at high percents because Boss likes to do that. Either way, KOs by nair will usually be setup by Dthrow. Because it'll usually be used for fishing for KOs, you should try to DI so that Luigi's nair will miss.
Smash attacks (Namely FSmash and DSmash): While FSmash is low ranged, it's great for KOing. DSmash isn't as powerful as FSmash, but it's incredibly fast and sends the opponent at a diagonal angle. Block this and punish Luigi.
Fireball: Luigi has a rare case of using a projectile that has little commitment to it. While it's not incredibly great, it can be used to annoy and pester you. Either way, because of it's horizontal movement Luigi can use fireballs to block a section of the stage. If you want to get creative, use your pills from a full jump so that they force Luigi to avoid it, hopefully making him move to you, but in neutral where he has to commit to something.
Green Missile: Luigi's side recovery has low priority and is easily caped. Tornado it, bair it, cape it, whatever you want. If they get the misfire.. prepare for it via cape or spotdodge.
Super Jump Punch: While Luigi can sometimes combo into it from Dthrow, this is mainly dependent on the opponent's DI. Either way, nobody likes dying from a Fire Jump Punch so try to DI away so that Luigi can't get the sweetspot. Really, you'll see this if Luigi is really upclose and you've messed up.
Luigi Cyclone: Cyclone is really something. It acts like a laggier but more maneuverable version of your Tornado, but offstage it can be used to gimp depending on the character's weight and floatiness. On stage, Luigi may use this as a surprise movement option. If that's the case, block it because when Luigi is done with the move, you have a lot of time to punish him.
Offstage though, Cyclone can gimp. Really, the ways you can avoid this tend to be either recovering high so that Luigi has to catch you, or using a combo breaker to avoid Luigi setting up this move.
When used for recovery, it can be mashed to gain some pretty big height. However, Luigi has to commit to this move when recovering so when it ends, Luigi is bait to edgeguarding.
A2ZOMG
said still holds true in the MU so I would say that the match-up with customs is 55:45 in Doc's favor or 50:50.
If luigi fishes for a grab just wall him out with back airs. lol. If he's using fireballs just throw pills over them as they will pretty much go straight to luigi. Another thing you can do is approach with a down air, or if he's using the fireball forward air wall, a dash attack to slide under the forward airs hitbox. F-smash, back air, forward air, and up smash should be safe on his shield to so don't be afraid to throw one of those out too. Make sure you use your nair or up b to combo break him. Luigi is pretty floaty so you should use more aerials on him as opposed to a down throw up air down tilt like I usually do. Don't forget to cape his missile for basically a free kill. If you try to edge guard Luigi usually you should wait for him to recover low and try to get a back air stage spike. When you're recovering, don't be afriad to stop holding towards the stage for a second to avoid an attack.
To punish them? I use Nado or just dash attack them at the end of their roll. Also, can we move on and discuss another character? We've been discussing Luigi for months. Lol
It's wait for him to do something punishable, juggle him, and edgeguard him, and try to not die to his grab game and juggles. It's a pretty bad matchup overall imo.
Vs
