Charizard Stage Discussion

[YeahVeryeah]

A preliminary stagelist has been made on competitive discussion. Its somewhat liberal.

Legal:

FD / Non-Walled Omega
Battlefield
Yoshis Island
Prism Tower

CP

Brainstar
Arena Xerox
Tomadachi Life
Walled Omega Forms
Reset Bomb Forest
Rainbow Road


What Stages does Zard want to play on? Off the top of my head, Tomadachi life is wonderful for any character with a star throw as it lets them quickly reposition both fighters. Zard can also pretty easily approach people from above by walking off the side of platforms and dragon rushing in. Not to mention the high bottom blastzone completely trivializes the weakness of zards powerful fly variant, as he can recover with it from the bottom of the stage.

 

[Masonomace]

Charizard can exploit Walled Omegas due to Flare Blitz bouncing off them & using the jumps + Up-B Fly like I would hope we'd reserve at least one. Other than that I feel like Zard doesn't wanna play on BF or YI, PT seems good though. This is all an opinion however. .

 

[YeahVeryeah]

Well tech chase showed that ledge trick that lets Charlizard cancel the ending animation for flare blitz on battlefield, so that's cool. I might test that on TL and the other stages soon

 

[Jexulus]

A shame that Corneria has that unfortunate glitch that causes some characters to fall through at certain points. It would probably be one of Charizard's best stages. He would have a commanding presence on the booster side especially, with his large size and glorious edge-guarding options (Flamethrower, Dair, Bair, Fair, etc.).

 

[Knee Smasher]

It depends strongly on the matchup. Charizard prefers Battlefield against Wario, Little Mac, and projectile spammers for obvious reasons, while Final Destination and Omega stages are more preferable against other characters both because the longer length of those stages compared to Battlefield makes Flare Blitz less risky to use, and also because Charizard does not really like being on top of platforms as it doesn't have many options against opponents that attempt to juggle it from below.

Also, one thing I can say for certain is that Arena Ferox is by far the worst stage for Charizard. The statues and walls often get in the way of Flare Blitz, and there are too many platforms to allow characters to escape from Charizard's moves.

 

[LightlyToasted]

How would DK 64 be, if only for FB to a far off barrel for more recovery options. Also his up b seems about the right height and width to punish those landing on the moving platforms.

 

[-LzR-]

How would DK 64 be, if only for FB to a far off barrel for more recovery options. Also his up b seems about the right height and width to punish those landing on the moving platforms.

The slanted floor pisses me off when it ruins my SH aerials.
I think upB perfectly reaches the platforms on the side when done on the ground below them.
The moving platforms aren't very good for us.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Reviving this because we really need it.

 

[Splooshi Splashy]

Wouldn't Castle Siege be a great stage for Customzard to go? The walk-off room would be great for wrecking zoners' projectiles, especially if we bring Dragon Rush, which pierces the stone structures and even grants us incredibly early KOs if we get the launching last hit close to the blast zones. Speaking of early KOs, Smashville's single platform would provide us a surface to score early DR KOs off of as well. Plus our Up 1 got buffed in KO power in this patch, so a lower ceiling stage like Halberd or Delfino would be a boon for us (Delfino's walk-offs = safe early DR KOs too!), since we're also as heavy as , would it not? I'm not sure about Lylat Cruise and Kongo Jungle 64, but if we bring Up 3 and Side 3, perhaps surviving the recovery attempts for those stages would be more possible?

 

[Steeler]

Delfino is amazing in customs, DR is legit a broken move on some parts. Remember that someone in the water is a free DR (or Blitz) too.

 

[-LzR-]

I think Charizard likes the more dynamic stages. FG/Omega is probably our worst, while everything else is perfectly fine.
Castle Siege is amazing, I've gotten so many Dragon Rush kills at around 10% or so there. Shame the last transformation is pretty much an FD, but we can deal with it.
My go to counterpick is PS2 most of the time, but it might have more to do with my skills on the stage instead of Charizard being any good there. Charizard likes the electric transformation and in the ice one Dragon Rush covers the whole stage. Ground one sucks.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'd actually argue that we like FD....

 

[Ryukred]

I kinda like all stages as Zard, dunno why but I don't really see any stages that's not in Zard's favor.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So....

Any thoughts about the DLC stages?

 

[Charey]

Dreamland has a good platform layout and a lowing celing, so it seems like a great stage for Zard.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

The Omega Ryu stage has stoopid small horizontal blast zones for no reason.

I'd reccomend not staling Fair on that stage, since it kills at like 90% at the edge.

 

[Steeler]

Are you sure it isn't the same as any Omega? Fair late hit is pretty stronk now.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

I believe dreamland's better than battlefield for our kill power. Vertically and horizontally the blast zones are shorter than battlefield, and the bigger top platform makes landing up throw on the top platform just a little bit easier. I don't think wispy has any negative effects on our recovery, but our throw combos could be messed up if wispy blows them away. That being said it could also be good for our combo if it blows toward us and allows for an easer follow up grab on dthrow > nair

 

[DERUDERUDERUDERU]

Wispy wouldn't affect combos with down throw since it only effects grounded opponents, unless they happen to fall on the second level of platforms. Dreamland's blastzones make it great for Charizard.

Honestly stagewise Duck Hunt, Siege, Delfino, Dreamland and Halberd seem optimal. Town and City isn't a bad one for a neutral starter, neither is Battlefield. Smashville is eh, and FD is scary.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Are you sure it isn't the same as any Omega? Fair late hit is pretty stronk now.

From what I've been seeing, that stage in particular just has small horizontal blast zones.

 

[DERUDERUDERUDERU]

From what I've been seeing, that stage in particular just has small horizontal blast zones.

All Omega stages have the same blastzones except for Omega Halberd/Colosseum/Palutena's temple which has 1% higher vertical blastzones. Source is from here, but I'll test Omega Suzaku to be safe.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Dream Land 64's wind via Whispy Woods pushes you no matter where you are on the stage, and it also seems to out-do the pushback effect on a successful Flamethrower, so it lets you use Flamethrower as more meaningful pressure when it's blowing toward the opponent, especially near the ledge.

 

[Pentao]

I'd actually argue that we like FD....

Could I see that argument? I'm actually finding that I struggle a lot more on flat stages than ones with any sort of additional platforms as Charizard.

If I have to play without Dragon Rush, this is especially evident as it's far less safe to throw out Flare Blitz to mix up my landing, and Charizard's air speed makes him pretty awful at getting a better landing positioning despite his multiple jumps.

Stages with platforms give Charizard a lot of leeway of where he could land, which helps him fight against people who are constantly juggling him. Not only that, but Charizard's got really good anti-vertical options in general. Up-Smash is just annoying as hell to deal with for people when you're Charizard on Battlefield, for example. The ability to scoop people so quickly and hit them relatively decently is quite good. Up-tilt also deals decent damage and comes out pretty fast, and with platforms, there are more opportunities to actually use it. In fact, pretty much all of Charizard's "Up + Input" moves are good with platforms since you have one hell of a sharking game.


But really, being able to mix up landing options more and improving our anti-air game, I feel like platform stages are just flat out better, as being above Charizard is one of the worst places to be.

 

[ShadyWolfe]

So....

Any thoughts about the DLC stages?

Miiverse is pretty much just Battlefield without the jank edges that can be attacked through. Sanzaku has a walk off and the left side promotes camping so I don't expect that stage being legal. I am convinced Dreamland is Charizard's best stage. It has the platforms like Battlefield that helps our mix up game, landing, follow ups, juggles, Up throw killing faster, and helps us against projectiles. To my knowledge the smash ceiling is shorter and the blast zones are wider which benefits us. Shorter smash ceiling leads to earlier kills and the Zard can survive even longer horizontally. The blowing tree can be a little annoying but I never found it to really hurt me in any way. Final Destination is definitely our worst stage but it still isn't really bad for Zard. Charizard benefits more from platforms and characters with projectiles, better neutral game, and the such can make Final Destination/Omega stages a pain.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Could I see that argument? I'm actually finding that I struggle a lot more on flat stages than ones with any sort of additional platforms as Charizard.

If I have to play without Dragon Rush, this is especially evident as it's far less safe to throw out Flare Blitz to mix up my landing, and Charizard's air speed makes him pretty awful at getting a better landing positioning despite his multiple jumps.

Stages with platforms give Charizard a lot of leeway of where he could land, which helps him fight against people who are constantly juggling him. Not only that, but Charizard's got really good anti-vertical options in general. Up-Smash is just annoying as hell to deal with for people when you're Charizard on Battlefield, for example. The ability to scoop people so quickly and hit them relatively decently is quite good. Up-tilt also deals decent damage and comes out pretty fast, and with platforms, there are more opportunities to actually use it. In fact, pretty much all of Charizard's "Up + Input" moves are good with platforms since you have one hell of a sharking game.


But really, being able to mix up landing options more and improving our anti-air game, I feel like platform stages are just flat out better, as being above Charizard is one of the worst places to be.

All of those are true, but when I said that I was thinking that FD helped in our approaches by air as our multiple jumps lead to some awesome psyche outs.

But I was wrong so...

 

[ShadyWolfe]

All of those are true, but when I said that I was thinking that FD helped in our approaches by air as our multiple jumps lead to some awesome psyche outs.

But I was wrong so...

FD would seem to be good to go to against characters that lack a good neutral game or characters that lack projectiles like Captain Falcon. I would like to bring up Skyloft into the analysis but it seems no tournament organizer likes that stage despite it being less jank than Delfino Plaza and Castle Siege.

 

[Saturn_]

I'm new to the character and this is what seems to me to be Charizard's best stages, from best to worst:

Updated 7/8
Dreamland 64 (best)
Town and City
Delfino Plaza
Battlefield
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Duck Hunt
Castle Siege
Final Destination (worst)

I'd love for some feedback though. I'm playing Zard in bracket for the first time in bracket on Tuesday and having an idea of what stages I should pick will only improve my performance.

 

[DERUDERUDERUDERU]

That list is more or less fine, though I'd probably put Siege over Lylat and Smashville. You can get some early kills with the Transitions, just the second transformation hurts you the most, but you can kinda outcamp certain characters. Lylat and Smashville both really don't help you in the slightest.

 

[Steeler]

Honestly, I don't think Charizard has inherently bad stages. It just depends on the matchup. For example, Charizard has some of the biggest bull**** of any character on Delfino, what with up throws during transformations and side B on swimming opponents. But it is absolutely terrible against Yoshi, who can outmaneuver you during transformations and camp you at any angle with his eggs. A lot of people like Duck Hunt for Zard because of the tree but the stage is pretty huge and empty besides that, which is also no good against a mobile, campy character like Yoshi.

Charizard really feels like a character who benefits from different things the stages offer, and is just good enough at different playstyles to adapt to the opponent's strengths. You just need to pick stages that don't help your opponent more than they help you. The main thing I've learned is don't pick big stages against characters who are more mobile and can camp you (Yoshi, Sheik). If anyone has any words of advice for other types of characters, I'm all ears.

 

[Saturn_]

I definitely agree that Zard can play on many stages. He's unusual in that he has multiple "best stages", in one MU he may want to play Town and City, in another he may want to to play Delfino.

I think I'd move Delfino above Duck Hunt, and Battlefield above Halberd. I'd also drop Duck Hunt waaaay down. I've updated my above post to reflect my changing opinions.

 

[Charey]

Smashville is the only stage I would put as bad for Charizard from the EVO list, mainly because while Zard can't use the moving platform for traps like you can stationary platforms and it helps a lot of other characters that can use it to extend combos or in the worst case carry you to the blastline for early KOs.

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

Mario Sunshine because it's fun for a legal stage and also trapping people in the water with dat stomp.

 

[charizardbro]

So since nobody's mentioned 3DS picks and bans...

Ban FD or Yoshi's for neutrals. In most MUs, you'll want to get rid of FD but the lack of consistent Fair auto cancelling on Yoshi's is pretty annoying so I feel like we would be a little more willing to try FD in some MUs.

For their counter pick, we typically continue to ban FD. You could ban Yoshi's too though.

For our counter pick, they will typically ban battle field or dream land. If you don't have dream land and they ban battlefield, take them to prisim tower or arena ferox.

Smashville is the only stage I would put as bad for Charizard from the EVO list, mainly because while Zard can't use the moving platform for traps like you can stationary platforms and it helps a lot of other characters that can use it to extend combos or in the worst case carry you to the blastline for early KOs.

Smashville is actually a godsend in certain MUs because its so small. I usually take projectile based characters there. Giving up platform Uthrow cheese is worth not getting camped as hard imo.

 

[MintyBreeze]

Would it maybe be a good idea to make a reference guide of what stages are helpful against certain characters? I feel like the MU threads are relatively empty when it comes to which stages to pick and avoid.

 

[Basseidon]

Would it maybe be a good idea to make a reference guide of what stages are helpful against certain characters? I feel like the MU threads are relatively empty when it comes to which stages to pick and avoid.

I agree with this. It would take some time to develop and keep updated but we need some organization.

 

[MintyBreeze]

I think For Glory is somewhat guilty of this, since unlike Brawl it's restricted to flat stages. Maybe just putting a disclaimer in the main match-up thread to try and think of character specific stages would help.

 

[Steeler]

I think that basically, Smashville/Town and City/Dreamland are always okay because they have platforms that help you with uthrow, help you land, and set you up for traps on the platforms. Smashville's platform is particularly dirty for setting up insanely low % bair kills when it's hovering offstage. Dreamland has a nice wall to bounce Flare Blitz off of and the wind is a boon to Flamethrower. Fairly basic stages for the most part, with platforms that give you escape options without getting in the way.

Battlefield and Lylat are very bad against projectile characters that limit your movement tremendously: in the air AND on the ground. I'm talking about Toon Link, Mega Man, those characters whose projectiles can cover multiple angles. The platforms are a serious detriment to your neutral game because it makes stuff like full hop nair difficult or impossible to use to pressure opponents with - I think this is a really important thing to consider because otherwise you are kind of just left to control space in front of you with Flamethrower and fair, both of which are easy to outplay with proper projectile play. Consider as well that the characters I mentioned have a much easier time maneuvering about the platforms due to their air speed and smaller size. Landing on the platforms isn't really safe because these characters can cover your landing on the platform regardless.The difference with Dreamland and Battlefield is that Dreamland's platforms are quite a bit smaller, which leaves more air space between the platforms for full hop nairs. To understand why I think full hop nair is important in those matchups, watch this vid of a Japanese Zard against a Mega Man and take note of the nairs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypm_96lMy3w

I'm not sure how I feel about FD. You have freedom of movement but the lack of any platforms does your uthrow no favors, weakens your juggle game, and makes it harder or even impossible to land safely against stuff like Samus Charge Shot. I think this is more contingent on how hard the opponent can punish your landings than anything, because the lack of platforms also helps you land Flare Blitzes occasionally.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I aim for BF/Dreamland/Town and City most of the time.

FD I avoid generally unless I think the lack of platforms is worth it in a mu. Generally not though.

 

[Marrow]

I go for Lylat a fair bit, since the platforms are at a great height for our fiery friend. Up tilts and up smashes are effective tools which cover most, if not all, of the ground above, but a little air space higher up as well. The stage tilting isn't too bad for us either, and considering how much that shuts down certain characters, it's a net gain for us.