Charizard Matchup Discussion - Zero Suit Samus

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#2
Having a ZSS main as one of the only people I can play against regularly, and being a Charizard enthusiast, I feel like I have a lot to say on the subject. ZSS loves Charizard. She can juggle him for days if she's good at reading air dodges, and even if Zard uses rock smash to get back on stage. She can out space him and keep him on the defensive, with a grab range longer than most of Zard's quick attacks. Where Zard does win though is in power. ZSS will have trouble killing Zard until he is high 160s if the Zard avoids smashes. He can kill her however at around 90% if the right move connects. The problem is getting close enough to do any damage, and getting close enough and getting a hard enough read to kill her. This matchup is heavily skewed in ZSS's favor, but I wouldn't say it's unwinnable. As long as Zard can get in and keep her out of the air, the fight will be fair game.
 

Leety

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#4
I seriously hate this MU, like... so much. Picking Zard on ZSS is like picking Ness on Rosaluma, you must have death's wish at this point. But let's just say we're going to hardcore main Zard, no characters to help with really tough MU's. Is there really a way to jump the hurdle?

First and foremost, the Elephant in the room. ZSS's neutral B. Seriously, avoid this thing at all costs. Unless you're confident that you can powershield, don't shield it, AVOID IT! Even if that means running like a coward when ZSS placed you in that situation. This might be a very good time to utilize SHAD, it'll give you a nice quick air dodge and immediately land with no lag. Be mindful of the spacing between you and ZSS while utilizing this. If you feel gutsy and you see the neutral B coming, you can use your quick ground mobility to place spacing between ZSS and yourself and cross-up. Catching her on the paralyser when her back is turned means a free jab by you. I've also realized the N-air and flamethrower can destroy this with careful timing allowing two moves you can use to both destroy the projectile and give some free damage on ZSS, risky though.

That tether. Don't fear the tether, this is probably the only time we'll have the chance to finish her off. If it connects, we're juggled and placed at an awful position. If it's wiffed we well, get a free punish. Unfortunately Charizard being the big target he is that's easier said then done. The best thing to do is either cross up with a dodge roll, or you have to jump when you see the grab coming. If the ZSS is spacing correctly, your spot-dodge and back-roll will be covered.

Flipkick. I've actually found it easier to take some damage and jump into the strait dunk while you're at low %. Since ZSS is quite committed after landing a hit with it, I found it quite possible to land something after getting out of hit stun from the spike. Kind of silly strategy, but I've found it to give a nice surprise to ZSS, also a better option the getting buried that's for sure. Otherwise the best option really is to shield it. Note side flip kicks are lagier and possibly punishable on shield. A gutsy read on this move might also give you the chance of a free fly. Note that this move can also be used as a substitute for a dodge roll. On start up, you're unable to hit ZSS, but about halfway through the animation, you can hit her. But because of it's invisibility, it goes through Flamethrower and therefore shutting down our opportunity to use it whenever we want, our primary spacing tool that tends to be so safe, makes me sad actually. Otherwise, look out if ZSS throws you backwards, if you DI towards her, that's a free flip kick, if it's off stage, that's a dunk

Something I will say as a positive for us. ZSS doesn't tend to need commitment with aerial approaches, Rock Smash does make all the difference here. This is a very good tool against her aerial approaches as you can armor and counter with some good spacing. The Z-air is the only thing that you shouldn't try this with. Use this when ZSS least expects this.

In the event that you get hit into the air (which will most likely happen) you're going to have to utilize mix ups.... just so you can land. This is a very difficult task, just remember that you have two jumps, the use of fast falling, and the initial DI of getting tossed in the first place. Immediately air dodging after a grab is not always the best thing to do especially at high % as this will condition you to get caught up into an Up-B in which case you're dead. It's way too difficult to challenge ZSS's juggle so just focus on trying to land.

So is it impossible? Definitely not. I have a friend who plays ZSS and I've realized that the MU is possible. However, I got bodied about 15+ times by him before I started getting any results. Now it results as closer matches, him still winning most of them. It takes a ton of dedication and practice, but it mostly forces the Zard player to play very silly and make some incredible reads during the match. I'm going to give it 3:7
 
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charizardbro

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#5
I briefly mained ZSS a while back so I thought I'd speak up.

To add to what's already been said about neutral...

Do not challenge her short hop aerials with aerials of your own. ZSS' Nair confirms into a ton of follow-ups and it just isn't worth the risk. Similarly, don't challenge bair at mid to high percent if you can help it because that can also kill you surprisingly early which will make this matchup extremely hard to win. Also be aware of the utilt in neutral because that can start a combo too. Her jab is also a frame 1 move.

I've also realized the N-air and flamethrower can destroy this with careful timing allowing two moves you can use to both destroy the projectile and give some free damage on ZZS, risky though.
You have to hit the paralyzer shot tail first if you want to use nair. It's really, really particular spacing. I do kind of disagree about shielding the paralyzer though.

If you dash at ZSS and powershield it, you'll slide a little too which should put you in range for a quick punish (jabs, dtilt, maybe even a grab). This is worth going for a power shield every time you're in range to punish off of it imo.

Also, If you don't powershield, be really careful about your OoS option and you shouldn't have too much trouble. Don't roll. Spot dodge if ZSS comes in for a grab after the paralyzer (this is very possible! just hard when she's close since her grab is 14 frames) and go for retreating flamethrower if ZSS approaches with SH aerials instead. Don't use flamethrower too long though because that's a free flipkick once ZSS is out of hitstun. ZSS can also mix up with full hop aerials which could be a problem if you are already committed to neutral B. If she hesitates after paralyzer is shielded, drop shield and reset the situation.
You are in for a lot of damage if you get hit by it so I can see why you might want to avoid the paralyzer altogether. The game can also be won and lost by spot dodging grabs in neutral so I'd say that while it can be risky, its one of the few ways us Zards can turn the tide in our favor.

Flipkick. I've actually found it easier to take some damage and jump into the strait dunk while you're at low %.
That's an interesting option. I've always tried to utilt her out of it. Seems safer to me. It's harder to do when she comes in for the side kick rather than the dunk/bury but it works. Don't try to inturrupt this move with usmash though. Your character is lighter when charging a smash attack so you might just lose the stock if you mistime it. Plus it doesn't reach nearly as high as utilt.

Otherwise, look out if ZZS throws you backwards, if you DI towards her, that's a free flip kick, if it's off stage, that's a dunk
This cannot be stressed enough. If ZSS takes stocks even a little early, the match becomes so much harder for zard. You have to DI these correctly to have so much as a hope for this matchup. We feed off of rage in this matchup extra hard.

On the subject of getting combo'd though...

Get to the ledge or get around her follow-ups with your jumps. Landing with nair is not too great because ZSS' side special and usmash will outrange it no matter how you try to land with it.

If you get boost kicked at the end of the combo, smash DI it and then try to get out on the last hit. Otherwise DI the hit down and towards the stage because chances are its sending you straight to the corner blast zone.

And ledge trumps...

Grabbing the ledge with flare blitz can be useful if you think there's a chance she tries to trump you (immediately inputting a getup option works too). ZSS would be nuts to risk getting hit with that. It is important to note that regrabbing the ledge with flare blitz will not refresh your invincibility. Also try to avoid regrabbing the ledge in general since ZSS can combo dsmash into flip kick spike off of it and ledge regrabbing is a great setup for that kill combo. Not so great for zards though.

Rock smash/hurl may be your best bet to get around the bair after the trump but this can be baited so its a 50/50. It also stalls your momentum if you're still rising so inputting your second jump first will allow you to keep your options open afterward (that whole last paragraph is theorycraft though).

Offensively, Zard is pretty limited and is forced to play a much more reactive play style. Flamethrower isn't very safe. Losing a nair to nair clash spells a lot of trouble and zair will catch repeated aerial approaches (nair and fair). Combo throws are combo throws. You better not whiff a dash grab though. Our edge guarding is a lot harder because ZSS has flip kick and a second jump. Reading her recovery is hard but if you can do it, you will rack up percent a ton easier. It's worth trying to bait the jumps with empty hops to help; both offstage and when ZSS is trying to land. ZSS' initial dash is also pretty long, if you can read that and use it to your advantage. In terms of landing kills, I would not recommend the hardest of hard reads unless it's a last resort (ZSS is up a stock and has 50 on you). Jab 2 to grab and Jab 2 to fly are extremely good and reliable. Use those first. I'm not sure if she can mash out of the frame trap with flip kick though.

You pretty much have to be on tilt the whole match watching out for grabs, nairs, and paralyzers to avoid combos like the plague. ZSS also has a ton of kill options, some of which are available well before what Zards would call an acceptable kill percent in this matchup. You can't mess up. She has way more room for error. Easily 7:3, possible 8:2 if ZSS has solid matchup knowledge. Not necessarily unwinnable but you would need to play extremely well.
 
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Steeler

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#6
I agree with all of this. As stupid and as scrubby as it sounds, you really do need to make the ZSS respect your option of rolling through her. Once you do this, she has to be a lot more careful about whiffing her stuff. Additionally, keep in mind ZSS dash attack is pretty quick, moves her very far, and is quite meaty (active frames 7-19). It's a very strong grounded option for her when we are trying to land because even if you Rock Smash it, she will fly through you unless she messed up.

In short:


at least for this matchup.
 

Mightyno.M

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#7
I agree with all of this. As stupid and as scrubby as it sounds, you really do need to make the ZSS respect your option of rolling through her. Once you do this, she has to be a lot more careful about whiffing her stuff. Additionally, keep in mind ZSS dash attack is pretty quick, moves her very far, and is quite meaty (active frames 7-19). It's a very strong grounded option for her when we are trying to land because even if you Rock Smash it, she will fly through you unless she messed up.

In short:


at least for this matchup.
No lie I was looking for that video ty
As usual u pull though with the knowledge
 

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#8
I'm just miffed that Plasma Wire and Rock Smash cancel each other out.
 

Charey

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#9
One small advantage we get with customs is that Rock Hurl (not Smash) will get out of the up air to up b combo, which makes her have to play honestly for the kill. She still has a huge advantage but at least fighting her becomes possible.
 
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#10
One small advantage we get with customs is that Rock Hurl (not Smash) will get out of the up air to up b combo, which makes her have to play honestly for the kill. She still has a huge advantage but at least fighting her becomes possible.
Does that move cancel hitstun or something.
 

Steeler

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#13
I just played my friend in bracket and he pulled out his pocket ZSS on me... I barely won despite how rusty his ZSS was and how many mistakes he made. Just confirming this matchup is terrible as hell.
 
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#14
I wish I could do more than theorycraft about this MU. To date I haven't fought any good ZSS players that have given me significant trouble.

Out of curiosity, what are ZSS's best Oos options? Asuming we aren't playing like a potato and autocancel our areals properly, what are her best punishment options on us.
I've been experimenting with playing a more air based charizard. It isn't exactly optimal, but perhaps a change in approach is exactly what this MU needs.
 
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-LzR-

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#15
I'm sure any move on block with the exception of a well spaced Dtilt and Flamethrower is a free punish for Zss. We don't have safe ****. I guess Dash Attack, Bair and so on are what they will use if they want it guaranteed.
 

charizardbro

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#16
I wish I could do more than theorycraft about this MU. To date I haven't fought any good ZSS players that have given me significant trouble.

Out of curiosity, what are ZSS's best Oos options? Asuming we aren't playing like a potato and autocancel our areals properly, what are her best punishment options on us.
I've been experimenting with playing a more air based charizard. It isn't exactly optimal, but perhaps a change in approach is exactly what this MU needs.
ZSS doesn't tend to sit in shield very much. But if she wanted to she could still punish our aerials with dash grabs. Dash grab is kinda slow on ZSS but the range is absurd. Up B oos if she needs a kill but we would have to misspace for it to hit.

Even Flamethrower can occasionally be punished by Flip Kick on hit.

She can outrange any aerial approach we have with Zair and confirm into a grab at low to mid percent. Edge guards and possibly aerial combos out of Zair at higher percents. Her Nair usually beats our Nair.

Aerials just arent the way to go. I usually play a more reactive game and try to get ZSS to mess up. Pretty much grab and jab until you can kill. Rock smash when you can.

Dthrow -> Uair -> Uair -> Up B is so easy on Zard... Really annoying.
 
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#17
We can't fight her in the air, we can't fight her on the ground. Only way I can think of maybe winning is to go for moves so unsafe the ZSS player won't expect it...but that would only work once or twice anyway. Who beats ZSS besides fellow top tiers? Anyone?
 
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charizardbro

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#19
You guys need to be more confident.

It's a bad match up, not WW3. This attitude is the chief reason you're losing.
Nah man. It's not like I view the MU as an auto-loss or just give up. Honestly, its a MU I love playing because its so hard. Really helps me step up my game.

That doesn't make me any less salty that Dthrow confirms are killing me at 60% pre combo, though.

We can't fight her in the air, we can't fight her on the ground. Only way I can think of maybe winning is to go for moves so unsafe the ZSS player won't expect it...but that would only work once or twice anyway. Who beats ZSS besides fellow top tiers? Anyone?
I wouldn't necessarily do ridiculously unsafe things but being unpredictable with roll ins and spot dodges can be pretty effective if ZSS is just tossing out grabs and aerials in neutral. Roll behind a properly spaced ZSS Nair and you get a free jab combo. It's hard but if you roll when she jumps, you should be able to hit her as she falls. Beware that Nair ACs for ZSS for the entire move so ideally she won't have even landed when you jab her. Spot dodge a grab and you get a free jab combo. The situation still favors ZSS heavily, obviously, but it at least introduces a mindgame where there was once none (yes, we get abused in neutral that badly). It is very much the same principle behind rolling behind Rosalina and Luma's jabs to occasionally catch 'safe' options in neutral with jabs before they are out of range once more.
 

Steeler

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#20
yeah you basically have to cheese her with dodges like it's wifi. make her standard zoning game less appealing.

she is more susceptible to roll ins than most because of her dsmash but her nair is still pretty good against charizard because of how tall he is.

basically, zero suit has the advantage in every facet of the game. neutral, advantage, disadvantage. her zoning is better than ours, her on shield options are WAY better than ours, her combos are WAY better than ours, her ability to juggle and pressure landings is WAY better than ours, and her ability to get out of juggles/bad spots is WAY better than ours. hell her KO potential is better than ours until both characters are at high percents. her mobility is better than ours in every instance. walking, running, fastfalling, air speed. keep in mind that zss mains like to whine about how bad their grab is, except it doesn't matter here because you are charizard and every single move you have (besides autocancel nair but she can literally just up b you out of shield for that) has enough frame disadvantage to be shield grabbed. you are also big as ****.

this is atrocious, and the only way you win this matchup is if they take too many risks that fail (whiff up b, paralyzers you can dash -> powershield -> jab/grab punish, etc.) if they play safely and know how to land their combos, you will either get timed out or die trying.
 
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#21
I'm sure any move on block with the exception of a well spaced Dtilt and Flamethrower is a free punish for Zss. We don't have safe ****. I guess Dash Attack, Bair and so on are what they will use if they want it guaranteed.
Soooooooooo... with the change to shields in 1.1.1 I wonder how does charizard's on-shield game fares vs ZSS...

:006:
 

Leety

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#23
I can't believe people are still loosing themselves on this particular thread.

ZSS is a character in the roster, she's a bad matchup for us. Complaining about it isn't going to help, instead, practice as much as you can.

One of the advantages of having a character with a bad MU is that you have a way to practice overcoming your characters disadvantages the more you practice against ZZS. In the end, it'll make you better with Zard as long as you take every loss as a lesson. If you're in a tournament in danger of getting knocked off the brackets, well that's what a secondary is for.

Just be glad we don't have any MUs like Brawl MK vs Kirby match ups. ZZS is still winnable and not entirely one-sided. Just keep your cool and remember to have fun with who your playing against.
 

kendikong

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#25
I don't think the matchup is that difficult. I like to counter ZSS with charizard. What I don't like about ZSS is the fact that most of her moves go unpunished because she can fade away very quickly. I like to use Charizard against her because he can close to gap very quickly with a dash or a fire blitz. ZSS likes to spam paralyzer and grabs. Just keep some distance, go in with a sh nair when the opportunity presents itself.

When you read the flipkick, block and then charge after her with a dash Usmash. When she get to about 75%, try to bait out a paralyzer, and then fire blitz through that ****, leading to a easy KO. You should be using fire blitz sparingly beforehand, so she doesn't expect it.
 
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#30
Honestly, I think the MU's somewhere around 60/30 in Zamus' favor; we've got options to use against her, but she also has options against us that, sadly, just work out a bit better because of our size and weight. Jabs, throws and aerials are our safest bet in neutral; they're quick and reliable. She has a stun-inflicting projectile, which is the bane of a Charizard because it sets up for combos, which we're not good at taking...but we can cancel it out with Flamethrower, which also punishes her if she tries to rush us down and grab with flinch after. Yeah, her Nair/Zair is bull****, but then we shouldn't be trying to challenge her moves anyways unless it's using Flamethrower to cancel her Paralyzer's shots.

Our best course of action is simply to play a close-up pressuring game; keep pressure on Zamus and make sure she can't use the Paralyzer; make her the combo food instead of you. Keep her in the air, where Zamus is more vulnerable and our aerials can keep her from getting back to neutral for setups. Keep her off-stage where she has to recover and gimp her with an aerial. Keep her out of any situation where she could set up for a combo with Paralyzer shots or DSmashes, basically.

As long as we prevent Zamus from landing and setting up for combos, the matchup's actually fairly tolerable to deal with, though still not a cakewalk.
 

Y2Kay

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#31
Honestly, I think the MU's somewhere around 60/30 in Zamus' favor; we've got options to use against her, but she also has options against us that, sadly, just work out a bit better because of our size and weight. Jabs, throws and aerials are our safest bet in neutral; they're quick and reliable. She has a stun-inflicting projectile, which is the bane of a Charizard because it sets up for combos, which we're not good at taking...but we can cancel it out with Flamethrower, which also punishes her if she tries to rush us down and grab with flinch after. Yeah, her Nair/Zair is bull****, but then we shouldn't be trying to challenge her moves anyways unless it's using Flamethrower to cancel her Paralyzer's shots.

Our best course of action is simply to play a close-up pressuring game; keep pressure on Zamus and make sure she can't use the Paralyzer; make her the combo food instead of you. Keep her in the air, where Zamus is more vulnerable and our aerials can keep her from getting back to neutral for setups. Keep her off-stage where she has to recover and gimp her with an aerial. Keep her out of any situation where she could set up for a combo with Paralyzer shots or DSmashes, basically.

As long as we prevent Zamus from landing and setting up for combos, the matchup's actually fairly tolerable to deal with, though still not a cakewalk.
I agree, but is the match up bad enough to break the rules of numbers?:smirk:
 

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#33

Not a good Zero Suit Samus but shows that we can counter certain things.

Fly going through Flip Jump is something we need to abuse.
 

Swamp Sensei

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#35
So.

Seems its gotten much easier.

The nerfs have really made this bearable.
 
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