Charizard Matchup Discussion - Toon Link

Swamp Sensei

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GRimer
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#2
So...

No discussion here.

Regardless, I don't think Flare Bltiz can get through anything but his arrows.
 

Steeler

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#4
I think you want DR, but you can take Blitz if you think they have super predictable projectile patterns. Against great players, you will not have many opportunities to Blitz them in the neutral game.

You have to be super patient, of course. Powershield every projectile you can and beware his tether grab. This matchup seems like another one of those where you just have to outlast the other by abusing rage and your survivability. TL may have a slight advantage just because he will be controlling the tempo. Flamethrower does not detonate bombs for some stupid *** reason (but it can negate the other projectiles?!?) so it's very good when he doesn't have a bomb or can't pull one, and pretty bad when he is holding one or can safely pull one out.
 
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#5
Sooooo Toon Link. I'm sure anyone who's played For Glory has faced this guy at least a million times. Unfortunately, I only have experience in the For Glory Toon Link Matchup. Most of these guys can be beaten by simply blitz'ing them as they go for the inevitable dair. Usmash to catch their roll, flamethrower to negate the spam.

Assuming the Toon Link is good, I can only theorycraft. I believe this is a matchup that we want to play at mid-close range. Our goal in the neutral should be to either be 1. Right next to Toonlink, applying pressure in CQC or 2. At close-midrange, just close enough to threaten him with a flamethrower. Toon Link's win condition in this MU is to keep us at a distance, he can't afford to take too many hits, he's light and gets KO'd easily. Especially with his tendency to put us into rage. Charizard has better tools at midrange. Toon Link's areals at this range are fairly sheildgrabbable, and flamethower at this range will beat out everything but his bombs. If we manage to move into close quarters, charizard wins with his superior jab and longer ranged tilts. I suggest not neglecting ftilt in this MU, it's a disjointed hitbox that allows us to contest with Toon Link's sword moves.

If Toonlink is airborne, he's fairly easy to juggle, provided he isn't holding a bomb. Just watch out for the dair, as he might try to toss one out when you least expect it. Flamethrower and Nair gimps are especially effective against recovering toonlink.

Things to Avoid in this MU:

Do not try to beat Toon Link's charged arrows with Flare Blitz, it'll stop you in your tracks, and you'll end up taking on unecessary damage.

Flamethrower is an effective mid ranged tool against Toonlink, however be wary of leaping over boomerangs and commiting to it, they will hit you on the return voyage. Short bursts of fire in these sitations are a good source of disruption.

Try to avoid playing overly patient in this MU. Toonlink excells at controlling the pace of the match, you can play patient at mid-range. However when toonlink has you at a distance,your goal is to close in and get into that magic zone that charizard works best at.

Stages to Avoid:

Final Destination - Big Stage. No Platforms. Toon Link's projectiles cover a ton of options here. He has plenty of room to move around.

Duck Hunt (?) - Similar to FD, but with grass and tree platforms. I put a "?" next to this stage because the ducks might possibly inturrupt his projectile game. I'm not certain of this.

Town and City - This can go either way. It's a fairly flat stage with plats near the celing which can aid in camping. However the low ceiling allows us to get Upthrow kills more easily, especially with rage.

Omega Stages - Same as FD. Big stage with no plats, which Toon Link Likes

Counter Picks:

Lylat Cruise - Very small, cramped stage gives Toon Link little room to run away. The tilts can inturrupt Toon Link's projectile game, making gettign in that much easier. Charizard's Nair and Usmash do an amazing job of covering the platforms, while they protect us from Toon Link's bomb/boomerang spam from the air. Note: Flamethrower is significantly more effective here when aimed down a slope as opposed to up a slope


Battlefield - Charizard generally loves this stage due to his ability to cover platforms well. These plats give us cover from Toon Link's spam. While they also give him cover from above while camping, the same can be said for us when using Flamethrower defensively (bombs still pose a threat however).

Halberd - Fairly neutral stage with a low ceiling. Can be useful for ending his stock with a Usmash or Uthrow.










:006:

Overall I'd rate this MU as even, but can swing in either direction depending on stage choice.
 
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Leety

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#6
Hmmm, Tink. I can honestly understand why this is so hard to discuss. We just need an understanding of what the characters are and break it down.

:4tlink: Here we have Tink. Many would consider him a semi-clone of Link. What is Link known for? His versatility. Tink separates from his vanilla counterpart and is known to have the use of stage control in order to generate creative combos and kill set-ups

And now we have our :4charizard: . He's a very bulky adapt character who relies on good reads in order to net early kills. He has many defensive options which make it difficult to approach and a number of moves that can harass a character at mid range.

So we just need to put together the formula here. One character is very versatile one is adaptive. They both rely on bait and punish based strategies in order to net a kill. But that's just where I get very confused on what I think about this MU. Tink is so versatile that every time I encounter one, it feels like I'm fighting an entirely different character. However, it just doesn't feel like Tink has any tools that though are helpful for the correct situation, none of them shuts Zard down entirely or exploit any of Zard's major flaws.

I know this is probably not the most helpful post. But it's just very difficult as my mindset whenever I see a Tink player is just so inconsistent. So this is what I feel it does boil down to.

Can the Tink player keep himself unpredictable so Zard has to keep guessing Tink's strategies, or will Zard be able to use the appropriate move to punish the Tink for his predictable behavior? I feel that this would be a very 'bait' oriented fight where one tries to get the other to do certain things and lock them into behaviors that will get them a stock

I think we could get to the point of writing an essay if we go over every tool that Tink has and every tool that Zard has but I feel this is one of those weird 50-50 even match ups.

A couple of things you should probably do in your strategy

Positional advantage - Zard favors more mid range, Tink favors more far range. As a Zard player, you should try to keep the fight at middle range and avoid stages like FD and Duck Hunt that would give Tink a lot of room.

When in the lead, don't approach - Both Tink and Zard have a bit of difficulty approaching. Very similar to that of Villager MU, when you have the stock lead, you have absolutely no reason to approach. Let Tink come to you and make it as frustrating as possible for him to do so.

Don't stand in one place for too long - with the help of bomb combo set ups and the use of a boomerang, you would just be giving Tink a lot of advantages to pressure and set you up for kills. This is a no no.


Once again, I do apologize if the post is a little too broad without going into any specifics on what these characters might do to each other. But I feel there's too many positions you could be in. I hope that I can at least start up some discussion though
 

Swamp Sensei

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GRimer
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#7
@Disfunkshunal

Would you like to share some thoughts?

We fought each other a few times.

Anything you'd like to talk about?


Personally, I feel that the Toon Link matchup relies on how well you can power through Toon Link's traps.

If the Toon Link is anything like Disfunk's, they will create walls of projectiles while leaving just a tad of space that they want you to go through so they can strike.

You're gonna have to power through that wall in unconventional ways or straight up beat projectiles when you can. Good thing is that Toon Link has trouble getting out of our strings and combos from what I can tell. If we can get in, we should be able to stay in if we're careful.
 

Silvalfo

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#8
Charizard's lack of aerial mobility and general floatiness make jumping out of the way of projectiles a very weak option.

And don't bank too much on surviving for long against TL. Though he is light and very floaty and dies early (meaning he usually doesn't benefit much from rage), his fsmash is an excellent pressure tool (you shield the first hit and probably won't counterattack due to the risk of getting the second hit in your face) and kills ridiculously early. His uair eats airdodges easily and also kills very early. Lastly, he has the third strongest b-throw in the game in terms of knockback, which means he can pivot grab you near the ledge and kill a large fat dragon with a kid's judo throw.

All these kill options are safer than 90% of Zard's moveset lel

Also, considering what Flare Blitz can go through, remember to factor stale moves. I don't remember how much damage arrows or boomerangs do, but since he uses them 8 times out of 9 moves they're almost never fresh.
 
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