Charizard Matchup Discussion - Sheik

Silvalfo

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Silvalfo
#3
As expected, this is a horribly hard MU.

In your favor, Zard has an amazing jab and one of the very few f-airs with more range than Sheik's. Decent, constant high damage output through dthrow->fair is a decent asset against any Sheik. You're heavy and hard to gimp. A single read from Charizard can take very early stocks from Sheik (upB airdodge read being the most prominent example).

On the other hand, there is an abyss between both characters' frame datas. You can't touch a good Sheik, she punishes your every attempt to go on offense and Charizard's lack of aerial mobility is a humongous throw-off against needles and good spacing.

Play ultra safe. PS->grab her aerials if they end up being mispaced. SH Nairs are slightly less safe in this MU than in others but they still work. Be careful with using downB to survive when dthrown at high percents, as her multi-hit uair and invincible, delayed upB can both hit non-super armored frames.

Dedicated Charizard mains could test whether up-angled ftilts beat Sheik's SH aerials. Sliding Rock Smash can surprise a SH-happy Sheik. Good thing your grab outranges hers, though grab loses to anything else in her arsenal. If Sheik is forced to use her recovery to its limit distance-wise, it's not hard to learn the timing to dair her vulnerability frames. One may also test completely ridiculous ledgegrab punishes like RAR rock smash, anything's a plus if it can work against the character with the most options at any given time in the game.

Stages to pick? She has deadly setups on Battlefield and Green Land, and can run from you easily on FD/Omega. While benefiting her uair and upsmash, stages with low ceilings (and, to a lesser extent, Duck Hunt and its top tree platform) can work your way through uthrow cheesing.

I'd say this MU is a heavy -3. Most of a Charizard's best bets against Sheiks may be their unawareness of the match-up and rage effect shenanigans.
 
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N1ntendogam1ng
#4
The definition of unwinnable. As an advocate of hype matches and someone who loses a lot because I take stupid risks, you have to play as lame as possible to win, but at the same time, you can't run away because Shiek can needle camp you. Maybe you'll land a lucky Flare Blitz of side smash, but it won't be enough. Please someone be my savior and help me win this matchup.
 

Swamp Sensei

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GRimer
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#5
The definition of unwinnable. As an advocate of hype matches and someone who loses a lot because I take stupid risks, you have to play as lame as possible to win, but at the same time, you can't run away because Shiek can needle camp you. Maybe you'll land a lucky Flare Blitz of side smash, but it won't be enough. Please someone be my savior and help me win this matchup.
It's not unwinnable.

Sheik does have that problem with killing as in she has few reliable kill moves especially when we're as heavy as we are. Rage is our biggest plus here.



I recommend fighting Sheik at mid range. Not long enough to effectively needle camp but long enough to have her movements be predictable. Moreover, our longer range can do real work at that range. Close up and long range are deadly. Try to stay in the middle.
 

Virum

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#9
What makes this match-up somewhat hard is that Charizard has to step out of his typical defensive comfort zone. Sheik has a combination of needles to camp alongside superior frame data and powerful rushdown such that Zard can't opt for his typical out of shield and defensive options. If you shield a well spaced FAir for instance you can't drop shield and jab or shield grab because her jab beats them both for instance, and Flamethrower becomes significantly less useful because Sheik has multiple ways to combat it. As a result you have to get inside her mid zone and fiend for the trades. Your FAir is only a couple of frames slower than hers, but in exchange it does over twice the damage and will prevent her from building the momentum she wants. Zard needs comparatively fewer hits than Sheik to seize the stock and doesn't have to win neutral nearly as much. One rage grab will seal her stock sub 90% while she should be struggling to kill you until around 150%+ provided you DI her grabs properly and opt for the correct defensive measures which are the following:

DThrow -> DI up and away then double jump. Do not airdodge. Zard being a floaty heavy means that the percents where UAir can still hit you it won't kill with proper DI. Meanwhile Vanish can only hit you if you airdodge so double jump away then try to quickly fastfall and land.

FThrow -> DI down and in. Bouncing Fish is still able to hit you if you DI away so DI in allows you to survive it for longer. This is probably Sheik's hardest throw to deal with as Zard.

BThrow -> Always DI this away regardless of stage position. She gets guaranteed painful stuff if you DI in but she has to attempt to read you if you DI away so always DI away.

Of course this match-up is hard. Sheik is hard for almost everyone. But I don't feel it's too overwhelming or unwinnable. ZSS is definitely a much harder match-up.
 

charizardbro

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#10
What makes this match-up somewhat hard is that Charizard has to step out of his typical defensive comfort zone. Sheik has a combination of needles to camp alongside superior frame data and powerful rushdown such that Zard can't opt for his typical out of shield and defensive options. If you shield a well spaced FAir for instance you can't drop shield and jab or shield grab because her jab beats them both for instance, and Flamethrower becomes significantly less useful because Sheik has multiple ways to combat it. As a result you have to get inside her mid zone and fiend for the trades. Your FAir is only a couple of frames slower than hers, but in exchange it does over twice the damage and will prevent her from building the momentum she wants. Zard needs comparatively fewer hits than Sheik to seize the stock and doesn't have to win neutral nearly as much. One rage grab will seal her stock sub 90% while she should be struggling to kill you until around 150%+ provided you DI her grabs properly and opt for the correct defensive measures which are the following:

DThrow -> DI up and away then double jump. Do not airdodge. Zard being a floaty heavy means that the percents where UAir can still hit you it won't kill with proper DI. Meanwhile Vanish can only hit you if you airdodge so double jump away then try to quickly fastfall and land.

FThrow -> DI down and in. Bouncing Fish is still able to hit you if you DI away so DI in allows you to survive it for longer. This is probably Sheik's hardest throw to deal with as Zard.

BThrow -> Always DI this away regardless of stage position. She gets guaranteed painful stuff if you DI in but she has to attempt to read you if you DI away so always DI away.

Of course this match-up is hard. Sheik is hard for almost everyone. But I don't feel it's too overwhelming or unwinnable. ZSS is definitely a much harder match-up.
Her jab does not beat ours after a power shielded fair though. If you choose the right option (shield grab or jab) out of a powershielded fair from Shiek, you should be able to get something.

Zard needs comparatively fewer hits to take a stock but I think Zard needs to get in on Shiek wayyy more (comparatively) because Sheik racks up so much guaranteed damage at low percents. I don't think there is an advantage to be had in that respect in this MU because Sheik is really hard to get in on.

I'm relatively certain Zard can't DI out of dthrow -> uair from Sheik at kill percent if her timing is good. You can airdodge vanish though.

Sheik catches DI in if she jumps and holds back for bouncing fish. This works up until something crazy like 40%ish on Zard. It won't ever kill if you DI away at higher percents and airdodge but it racks up percent so well at low percents.
.
 

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#11
So, Sheik is MUCH MUCH easier now.

I'd go so far as to say we barely lose now.
 

C0rvus

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#12
I mean, she still dominates in neutral and forces Zard out of his comfort zone. It just takes her longer to kill you, and you needn't fear her grab nearly as much. Basically, you have more chances to land hits, and in turn stand a decent chance of coming back. If you can get the first stock, that might be game.

Just make sure to properly DI her throws and be wary of Bouncing Fish. And be sure to ban Smashville :U
 
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