Charizard Matchup Discussion - Roy

MintyBreeze

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#2
Essentially, they want the opposite of each other. Charizard would love to be able to gain stage control, so that he can space Roy out with his attacks. He has plenty of "Get off me!" options like Rock Smash, jab, F-Tilt/D-Tilt for when they're not quite in his face... Once his set-up has worked, he can start being aggressive with his aerials like F-Air and N-Air to pressure the enemy.

Roy, as far as I understand, likes to get as close as possible to deal the maximum amount of damage. He'll pressure you, force you back to the edge, and generally make it harder to hit him with options like his N-Air and F-Air. Double-Edge Dance can give him a fair bit of range on you, his counter can definitely hurt if you aren't careful, and he's not slow on the ground at all, either. He can afford to be aggressive, but I've noticed that some like to observe how you react and play a little more defensively as they do.

Try to be careful with your N-Air, as it can easily be countered. Yes, it doesn't deal much damage, but any bit of the stage you give to Roy, any inch, isn't a good thing. Try and avoid grabs if you can because of this, either by spotdodging or jabbing. Remember that your grab range is better than his, and that consequently, you can shield grab him; Remember, though, that he's very fast and could simply roll behind you to grab you instead.

If I'm correct, I think the start-up of Flare Blade (his neutral-B) could be interrupted by Flare Blitz. Fitting if that's true... I've found that it isn't because of Roy's speed that I find it difficult to kill him, it's because of his range. Sure, he enjoys being up close... But his attacks have some serious range to them for such a character, something you have to know to successfully fight him. As such, you need to use your spacing moves primarily, like your N-Air, F-Tilt, D-Tilt, ect. I think N-Air would be particularly helpful because of the sweetspot and that it outranges his aerials, I believe. Make sure you space yourself properly, as you could be flung off the ledge if you don't; His aerials have similar range to N-Air, but you have the advantage of being able to fastfall it and cover him diagonally.

Down-Smash is particularly useful in this match-up, at least for me. If you get a good read off, or happen to be able to punish his roll, you can actually kill Roy at around 100% with an uncharged one. Granted, this happened to me once I had rage, but still; In this match-up at least, it seems more practical than U-Smash, as even if it doesn't kill, it often forces him to recover from the stage. If you see the opportunity, though, go for it.

When you're landing, try and be extremely careful. While his U-Smash seems to have fairly limited range, it's not to be underestimated at all. First of all, it's a multi-hitter... Second of all, the final hit does 17% damage... And third, it actually draws you in toward Roy on the ground, from a fair distance away. Even if you only get hit by that very last one? You could very well die. Respect Roy's U-Smash despite it's range. I could see it being deadly on platform stages.

While I've been landing, I've seen Roy's use Blazer (their Up-B) on me quite often. Not only does it seem to sometimes act as a kill move as well as a recovery, like Doctor Mario's Up-B, it can actually be angled diagonally to allow for a less predictable recovery. I wouldn't recommend trying to edgeguard Roy with anything but Flamethrower or to the side of him, as it seems too risky. On the plus side, it doesn't seem to cover too massive a distance horizontally or vertically, so he potentially be gimped.

Part of me thinks that some Roy's are going to try to condition you into shielding, like you would for Marth and Lucina to nab a shield breaker, except for grabs. Whenever he pulls off a Double-Edge Dance, be patient and either shield or back up (do not drop your shield to back up, if you're caught in it, tough it out), using flamethrower to disrupt the animation. Also works to get him out of Flare Blade. This seems to also be a form of pressure as well as a ranged option for him.

In my fights with Roy's, they've often been stressful; Don't get stressed. This makes it harder for you to concentrate on walling them out, and much easier for them to exploit openings you create for yourself. Don't panic Rock Smash, or do a random Flare Blitz as he's charging at you. You need to think out your options. As a heavy, particularly Charizard, you can get the luxury to
play more defensively and scan your opponent, judge what he's going to do, and punish it if you happen to be correct more than other characters; You can sponge hits if a strategy of yours fails, and potentially adapt. Against a character like Roy who's like a volcano about to burst if you let him, you have to think about how you can counter his offense with a solid defense.

While these are just my observations, to be honest, and they're not professional, I think Charizard potentially has one of the better match-ups against Roy in terms of heavy characters. He's fast enough to keep up, can potentially space him out and push him back if he plays well, and can play aggressively if the time presents itself.

Also, none of the above takes platform stages into account, especially since I only happen to have the 3DS version of the game (with different stages: Thank you, Nintendo) and FG experience on top of that.
 
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Shog

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#3
Flamethrower is key.
Oh wait, that's true for all matchups:006:

Otherwise everything what MintyBreeze said
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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#4
Too early for me to make a legit call on this MU. Despite him and Ryu's popularity on FG i haven't gotten down a legit Roy to face outside of my friend I wifi a lot and the changes to Zard change a lot.

Unlike the other fire emblem characters, he wants you up close and has Ike levels of kill power. But only up close which helps Zard deal with the space zoning issue he has sometimes. If Roy uses his full range, he can't really kill us. If he is up close you can die as low as 70%. The difference is huge and this shows the difference in spacing matters a lot.

What makes up for it in Roy's side is his huge running/dash speed. It's incredibly fast. His moves are also super quick, nair is basically lagless.

Gimping him is easier than the reverse, Roy's recovery, like in Melee, isn't that great though it is better on this game.
 

Cindella

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#5
I coincidentally main both of them, and the main mistake I see people make is to try to challenge Roy's d-throw. Don't do it. DI up and away, and jump as much as possible. If you're facing a good Roy, you might get away with Rock Smash the first time, but after that, he'll counter it, and 29ish% X 1.35 = a very early kill. Airdodging is a horrible idea as well, because charged Fsmash can and will kill you at 70% after a d-throw airdodge read.
Flare Blitz is excellent to reset your spacing, as once Roy gets in, he'll get you out...of the stage. Also, remember to heavily utilize your shield, as Roy doesn't have any kill throws or guaranteed kills out of throws. Unless you're inattentive, your shield isn't getting broken, as only fully charged Neutral B can break your shield in one hit.
Roy is a read based character. Don't get predictable, and you can't really get killed.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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#6
So, what stages do you think we should pick?
 

Cindella

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#7
Ah..er...I don't use Charizard in tournament, I use Roy for that, as he is a (frame data alone) better character. I use Charizard In For Glory, so I can't really tell you where to go. Except for Halberd. If you're ever facing a Sonic with any character that has one move that is either wicked fast (Little Mac's rapid jab) or has a hitbox that stays out effectively forever, you're good to go. Just stand underneath the platforms, and use that move repeatedly. Charizard has good anti-air with his up-tilt and up-smash, so the sonic can't approach and will keep taking damage from the move of your choice.
 

Swamp Sensei

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#8
So... we think it's a positive match up?

Bad matchup for us?
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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#9
I couldn't judge it right now with the changes to Zard and me not as familar with it on both sides.

Gut says close to even or in Roy's favor, by a little.
 

MintyBreeze

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#10
Even without having much experience outside of For Glory, I'd agree. A patient Roy who knows the match-up wouldn't give himself up to us to let him be punished, but Charizard's defenses would be pretty difficult to get past, even for someone, I think, who knows his options. They just seem to cancel each other out; Whoever messes up first and stops paying attention will most likely lose.
 

Swamp Sensei

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#11
So. Now that we have had our hands on him for a while... What do you guys think?

I think we have an easier time than we initially thought.
 

-LzR-

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#12
I don't have enough experience to give useful input, but I have never found Roy to be difficult. He feels like on of the easier MUs for Zard. Just don't get hit by predictable counters, that stuff hurts. Maybe one day I can say something useful about this MU, but I want more experience first.
 

charizardbro

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#13
Neutral is pretty even. Roy's Nair is really good in neutral. So is Flamethrower. Roy can space Nair outside of shield grab range so it's safe on shield. I'm itching to try a jab punish after these shield changes though. Be sure not to sit in shield too much in neutral because Roy can pressure your shield with side b. Playing around his Nair with a low shield is really hard. Spacing him out is also important as the thread has already mentioned but be careful with Dtilt. That may clank with tons of stuff but Roy can still hit you as Charizard is leaning back from the headbutt if you whiff. Roy also has that jab(?) -> grab confirm which works really well on us because our airjumps are bad. At least he doesn't get much from grabs.

We can gimp his subpar recovery really well with Dtilt/Dsmash if we can catch him at mid percent without a second jump. We can also go offstage for Bair stage spikes but the angle of Roy's Uspecial makes this a little harder. Flamethrower is also an option for extra damage, of course. One thing that we've definitely missed in this thread is that Roy can also gimp with offstage counters. If he sees a Flare Blitz to the ledge, he can counter. The timing isn't easy but the reward is huge. Same goes for Fly because counter makes him turn around when he's hit in the back. We have the advantage for edge guards because ours are substantially easier but you shouldn't underestimate offstage counters. Pretty even offstage disadvantage if Roy actually counters well.

We have a way better (true) combo game on Roy but you can still give yourself trouble if you don't handle Roy's Dthrow correctly, like someone has already mentioned. Don't airdodge it. Dthrow -> Fair works really well for us and Charizard can get a regrab if Roy tries to hit back with Nair on the way down.

Honestly, this MU is harder skill-wise for Roy than it is for us so it probably favors us overall but I could see Roy bringing it back even with spotless spacing and good counters offstage.

I coincidentally main both of them, and the main mistake I see people make is to try to challenge Roy's d-throw. Don't do it. DI up and away, and jump as much as possible. If you're facing a good Roy, you might get away with Rock Smash the first time, but after that, he'll counter it, and 29ish% X 1.35 = a very early kill. Airdodging is a horrible idea as well, because charged Fsmash can and will kill you at 70% after a d-throw airdodge read.
Flare Blitz is excellent to reset your spacing, as once Roy gets in, he'll get you out...of the stage. Also, remember to heavily utilize your shield, as Roy doesn't have any kill throws or guaranteed kills out of throws. Unless you're inattentive, your shield isn't getting broken, as only fully charged Neutral B can break your shield in one hit.
Roy is a read based character. Don't get predictable, and you can't really get killed.
The part about Dthrow and abusing shield at higher percents is crucial.

I don't think counter would fire back all 30% of Rock Smash though. The first hit is 14% and I'm pretty sure counter activates intangibility and begins to start up the slash animation after the first hit. So it's not quite that damaging, iirc.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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#14
So as time went on...

I feel we overestimated our boy.

He's easier to wall than I initially thought.
 
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