Charizard Matchup Discussion - Robin

[Swamp Sensei]

The tacticians are invading!

Let's defend our country!


Link to archive: http://smashboards.com/threads/lets...e-is-here-still-looking-for-photoshop.407883/

 

[RomanceDawn]

I really really need some help with this. With Bowser and DK I'm figuring out a few things that help me get beyond the projectiles but I just don't know what to do with Zard.

I just get trapped left and right. Please help! Videos would be nice as well!

 

[GoldenMapleLeaf]

I can only offer some basic info as a Robin player, but I will say that it's not an easy match for you guys. Charizard's an easy character to camp away from, as a lot of his approach options are easy ways to get combos and keep him in the air for a while. His traction and lagginess also make it pretty easy to get away from him if he does manage to get in the first place, which I've stated is already pretty difficult.

That said, things do get a little bit better for him if he does get in. A lot of Charizard's moves are pretty slow and easy to punish, so I'd imagine you want to focus more on your grab game, which is already pretty good and outclasses Robin's easily. You'll probably need to use Flamethrower a bit for that, as it can stop Arcfire in it's path and has the most range. Flare blitz is easily checked and going to make you have a bad time.

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

I'd rather figure out how to cure cancer, which I would probably die before doing. This matchup is so stupid, I'd rather fight Diddy Kong.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Travel by air.

It's the easiest method of travel with this one. Shielding is great too. Just don't do it too close to Robin.

 

[AureusVulpes]

Travel by air.

It's the easiest method of travel with this one. Shielding is great too. Just don't do it too close to Robin.

Watch out for Robin's hilarious air-levin game. it has some seriously mean reach and boy does it hit hard. One of the people i play with is really good with robin, and bodies literally everyone in our group of 10-12 smashers with him her. myself and one other are the only two who even come close to taking him down.

robins will typically wall with arcfire and charge thoron. they'll then either bait you into frame lag somewhere or trap you in arcfire then thoron your face.

after thoron is gone (charges), theyll have to wait 9 sec to use it again. during this time theyll typically pressure or go for the kill with levin and arcfire until those are gone too. by then thoron will be back, and theyre either waiting on arcfire unless they were conservative during the levin phase, or ready to start the whole vicious cycle over again while levin comes back.

clever robins can gimp you with elwind, though some are skittish about using a recovery with limited uses to gimp. high-skill players know when and when not to do this. if you cant count elwinds, don't count on this not coming.

particularly sneaky robins can trap you into getting hit by noferatu, and setting your progress back slightly, often grabbing you with it midair. i dont know if this can grab you out of FB, but should be looked into.

I'll look up the spell counts and times and come back and post them here.

EDIT: here's the specifics for spells and levin as taken from the smash wiki:
Levin has 8 uses and takes 9 seconds to regen.
Arcfire - 6 (10 second regen) / Thunder - 20 (Can be surpassed) (9 second regen) / Elwind - 18 (5 second regen) / Nosferatu - 4 (35 second regen).

bear in mind that each level of thunder (there are 4 levels) that have differing costs. 1/3/5/8. as long as there is one charge left, robin can charge up ANY level of thunder and use it, though the tome will break immediately after.

additionally, every jab use of wind (the entire chain, not per hit) and fire costs 1 tome durability of the related tome.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

False Sense

We had some matches...

...

Oh this is gonna end with me crying, isn't it?

 

[False Sense]

False Sense

We had some matches...

...

Oh this is gonna end with me crying, isn't it?

Well, if you want my unprofessional opinion as a Robin main...

You die in this matchup.

Robin performs exceptionally well against large, bulky characters, and Charizard is no exception. You're just too big of a target for our spells, making it really easy to zone you out or trap you for combos. On top of that, your air mobility and range aren't really spectacular, so Robin can just abuse his/her stellar aerials against you for easy damage and kills. Really, your options against Robin are pretty limited.

Matchup is heavily in Robin's favor.

 

[Pokedex649]

Charizard is combo food. Between slow speed, a large hitbox, heavyweight status and pretty fast falling speed, as well as Charizard's slow aerials (rock smash included), really Charizard's most reliable approach options are an aerial approach (which is easy to punish because Charizard's aerials have pretty hefty landing lag), or Flamethrower (which can only be used so often due to stale moves, limited range and endlag). That being said, if you can somehow navigate past an endless barrage of lightning bolts, fireballs and books, and if you can get a grab past his aerials, Charizard's dthrow combos and uthrow KO can catch Robin off guard. Overall, I'd say it's about 60:40 in 's favor. However, since we're on the Charizard boards, not the Robin ones, I can't just leave it at that. My advice against Charizard mains, learn to predict the opponent's patterns of when they use Arcfire, and punish those patterns. From a distance, try forcing him to approach you. Shield against Elthunder and Thoron, but avoid Arcthunder. Do not shield it, especially when he's close up and/or has a book in his hands! You may have damaging throw combos and a deadly kill throw, but Robin's grab game is equally dangerous, especially if you're caught in a projectile trap or shieldstun. At very low percents, you can jump out of dthrow, or maybe even rock smash. At mid to high percents, DI away. It'll allow you to more easily escape checkmate, as well as bthrow kills. As for escaping checkmate, you have four options. Attack, Airdodge, rock smash, or jump. If you attack, it's 50/50, decided by whether or not they try to read an airdodge. If you airdodge, you may survive, unless they read the dodge. If you rock smash, you'll get hit, but they'll also get hit, unless they read it and fall to the ground to punish. If you jump, you'll get hit, unless he tries to read any other option. The odds are stacked against you, but it's far from impossible (I mean, we aren't Sheik). Sidenote, beware of ledgetrump bair.

 

[Steeler]

wtf is checkmate

 

[arbustopachon]

its Robin's down throw to levin u-air i think.

 

[Pokedex649]

wtf is checkmate

Robin's Dthrow to Levin Uair.

 

[C0rvus]

Robin beats Charizard cleanly. Just know that Arcfire isn't as safe as you might think. If it hits your shield, you can roll through it and sometimes even get a punish off. Robin's also got a relatively poor recovery, so maybe try and push your edgeguards.

 

[charizardbro]

I'd lab this MU a bit if I knew any Robin players but I feel like Zard might be able to SHAD through arcfire. I'm pretty sure that would help quite a bit.

 

[Wnyke]

Zard needs to watch out for arcfire, if you are in path of arcfire (once it has been thrown) you can roll behind robin (or try to), and have a free punish, short hop airdodge works too... in general don't let robin do arcfires just because (but that's true for any player facing robin)... also don't get above robin, ever...

if arcfire hits, at low percents, you can DI down and use shield to cover against f.air or u.air, loses to grab but it's an option... at high percents you can spam jump and as soon as you see the jump animation use an airdodge (if robin run and jumps towards you)...

robin attacks aside from d.tilt and thunder.lv.1 are either either easy to dodge or easy to punish, if you dodge a tilt, don't try to retaliate with a strong move, keep it simple with jabs, jabs into throw, just a throw, or a tilt... if you dodge/guard against an smash attack you can use d.smash or a sweetspoted f.tilt as a punish without many trouble...

ok, here we have the way Zard can win against Robin

If Zard has a punish that leaves robin off.stage, go for it (throw/tilt), once off.stage Zard has to be optimal in the edguarding. On Stages like dreamland/smashville/townCity/lylat where Robin can't take the risk of getting below the stage to recover, so here starts the fun guessing game,
Robin can a) use his jump and attack the edge.
a.1) land on stage(if close enough) a.2) stay offstage (common option) a.3) use elwind (weird option)
b) use elwind to grab the ledge
c) use elwind to go in stage

Zard has to get close to the ledge and SHIELD in all a) situations. If a.1) happens just punish robin with a shield->grab if a.2) happens Flamethrower is going to do the job leaving robin in an easy to edgeguard position. if a.3) happens you can go for a heavy punish and leave robin in another edguard position.
Against b) situation, Zard has to use ledgetrump,if robin doesn't use his 2nd jump as soon as robin is popped out, get on stage again and either use flamethrower or/and charge a d.smash (hope you have enough practice with this technique). if robin use his 2nd jump you can roll in the stage and wait for him to either waste elwind, try to attack or try to grab the edge again (worst choice).
and finaly in the c) situation, robin can't grab the ledge with the first elwind (or maybe I'm just bad with robin), robin has to use both attacks (or maybe cancel the first by landing on stage) if he wants to grab the ledge, so just go for an easy flamethrower edguard, then go for a d.smash if robin is recovering instantly after being hit, or go for a b.air(maybe a d.air), if he gets low.

On other Stages b) is a more viable option since robin can avoid fire and grab the ledge.

You can also try to abuse the fact that robin has no hitboxes abve him in elwind and land any air attack you want, without a 2nd jump robin is an easy target to hit, so abuse that.

Remember to not abuse maybe not even use flareblitz at all, rocksmash can be used as a counter/move (not recommended cause robin doesn't ends up in a difficult situation, better go for a grab/tilt), flamethrower is a good move to pressure the shiled, but is better to have it at max range while edguarding, ocassionally you can land fly on unaware opponents that try to attack while landing (save it as a surprise until 100+%).

Robin has an advantage over the neutral and grab-combo, but Zard can take stocks with any mistake robin makes, so is not an awful matchup at all...