Charizard Matchup Discussion - Ness

Swamp Sensei

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#3
Really, against Ness, we only need to worry about his combo game and PK Fire.

Everything else can be dealt with easily.

Heck we just need to be hit by hiss recovery and bam dead Ness.
 

Luco

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#5
I don't think I've ever faced a competitive Char player offline actually.

Char doesn't want to get grabbed because he'll take a lot of damage and I feel as though Char will suffer trying to land against a competent Ness. PKT harassment offstage would also be a thing Char would have to deal with.

Ness would also probably dislike landing against Char. Not actually sure how offstage would go, I'd love to practice against a char main for a while to see.

I mean, I'll be going back to tournaments soon so hopefully I start coming up against some char mains. I wonder how this MU would play out at high level? Who are the best Char mains aside from Trela?
 
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Swamp Sensei

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#6
I don't think I've ever faced a competitive Char player offline actually.

Char doesn't want to get grabbed because he'll take a lot of damage and I feel as though Char will suffer trying to land against a competent Ness. PKT harassment offstage would also be a thing Char would have to deal with.

Ness would also probably dislike landing against Char. Not actually sure how offstage would go, I'd love to practice against a char main for a while to see.

I mean, I'll be going back to tournaments soon so hopefully I start coming up against some char mains. I wonder how this MU would play out at high level? Who are the best Char mains aside from Trela?
Do you have the Wii U version, Luco?
 

Swamp Sensei

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#8
I just got back home from my gap year, as a matter of fact - So, yes. <3


I'LL LOAD UP RIGHT NOW :D
Well uh...

Sorry Luco I can't do it until Sunday night...

But I'd be glad to play you again. We could then write about our experiences here.
 
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#10
I'll say this, shield, a lot. Do what you can to avoid being grabbed, because he'll tack on a load of damage from just a single grab. Pretty much anything Ness has will beat out Charizard's due to the speed of his attacks compared to Zard's, so a Charizard will have to wait and punish with his faster moves such as jab or any of his tilts. Oh and PK Thunder rocket nearly OHKOs so you have to be careful if he goes for it, avoid it at all costs. Up throw is your savior here, as back throw is Ness's, if your back is up against the wall, an up throw may just win you the match.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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#11
I'll say this, shield, a lot. Do what you can to avoid being grabbed,
Uh...

These bits contradict each other.

And from my matches with Luco Luco Zard beats Ness is a couple of aspects, especially range. I think you're being a tad pessimistic. Like jeez man. Ness isn't THAT bad.
 
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PKBeam

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#13
Charizard is big and that comes with its disadvantages. For the most part Ness can rack up damage pretty well on Charizard and getting kills isn't too hard, but at the same time Charizard has tools (such as range) to get great rewards on reads. He can hold his own but IMO he just gets edged out by Ness' options. It's like +1. Maybe +2 but I'm not sure on that.
 

Swamp Sensei

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#14
I'd personally go with 55/45 in Ness's favor. His combo ability is REALLY nice on Charizard but Ness is rather easy to edgeguard in my experience.
 

PKBeam

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#15
I doubt Ness is that easy for Charizard to edgeguard. Maybe a gimp if you get him really far off (does Charizard have any good semispike moves?), and maybe 10% here and there but it shouldn't really be happening that much.
 
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#16
I doubt Ness is that easy for Charizard to edgeguard. Maybe a gimp if you get him really far off (does Charizard have any good semispike moves?), and maybe 10% here and there but it shouldn't really be happening that much.
He has a good meteor. It's really quick.

And jumping off the ledge flamethrower has helped me in several Ness matchups. It drags him down which is the last thing Ness wants.

Then again I may have just faced mediocre Ness mains and these aren't big problems. I've just never had much trouble with Ness outside of Luco Luco giving me an ass whooping. And even then I think that's just Luco giving me an ass whooping.
 
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PKBeam

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#17
It's certainly possible for that to work but Ness just doesn't get into that sort of position enough for it to be a major thing, although I could be wrong.
 
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Virum

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#18
I've played this match-up a fair bit with the best Ness in the UK and out of my 3 characters I feel most comfortable going Zard in this match-up. As a result I think it's dead even at worst.

There are two key reasons why. The first of course is the neutral. Zard has the tools to combat Ness effectively in the neutral. Since Ness isn't particularly fast and his range isn't quite enough, Zard can respond quite effectively to his typically safe pressure options with his jab and grab. Zard's jab is borderline broken and can often punish Ness' spaced retreating aerials after dropping shield which is mad. Dash attack serves as a solid zone breaker if Ness attempts to retreat away, while grab of course sets up for the key bread and butters and helps to establish stage control. Once Ness is in the air Zard can space him out with his superior range aerials such as NAir, FAir and BAir to attempt to cover his landings, as well as beat Ness' UAir with his own thanks to Zard's neck and head being invincible.

The second is offstage. If Zard gets Ness offstage in theory Ness should die every time. Once you catch his double jump with Flamethrower (be weary to space it correctly so he doesn't just air dodge through with his busted air dodge) all it takes is a well placed DAir (provided he's not too far away from stage) to demolish his stock. Because of this if you're able to assert stage control early on in a stock you can gimp him effectively. Meanwhile Ness should never be killing Zard ever until beyond the 120% mark where onstage UAir and BThrow start killing.

The difficulties come from Ness' immense punish game. This child hits incredibly hard and ironically for each neutral exchange typically Ness will get more damage out from guaranteed punishes, but Zard typically should be winning neutral more and force mix-ups vs Ness when he's in disadvantaged state. If he catches you with a PK Fire at low percent you're taking at least 30%+ which is more than Charizard can deal out of his guaranteed punishes. It's rather interesting actually because typically when looking at characters of their respective size and weight classes you would think it would be the other way around.

The other challenge comes in the fact that because Ness is typically the one attempting to apply pressure while Zard is countering the pressure with his own defensive and out of shield options, Ness is much better at conditioning for the grab than Zard is. As a result, despite Zard's grab having superior range and both their kill throws killing at roughly similar percents (Zard's will kill earlier under platforms), Ness will probably be the one getting more kills off grabs simply because I'd argue he has an easier time landing them.

This is definitely one of Zard's better high/top tier match-ups. As I said, even at worst and possibly slightly in Zard's favour.
 
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#19
Charizard is definitely equipped to beat out Ness in this MU, in my own experience.

As Sdo0m covered, Charizard's jab and grab can make mincemeat of Ness' normally safe pressure options and thus forces Ness to play a different game in order to counteract this. Ness can mess up Charizard if he gets off a PK Fire or a grab, though. In neutral, Charizard has a slight advantage due to the fact that he's going to be the one forcing mixups out of Ness. Jab can punish any of Ness' spaced aerials after dropping shield, and then he can follow up with his own aerials, which come out pretty fast as well. Ness is generally trying to apply pressure, so just play around his pressure game with a defensive game untill you can get into an advantaged state, and then go wild. Charizard should always have exploiting Ness' Achilles Heel on mind in this matchup; which is recovery.

Ness' most critical flaw against Charizard is offstage, yeah. Ness' recovery is already pretty predictable, but Flamethrower plays havoc on a recovering Ness; and having a fast DAir that also serves as a spike really is just rubbing salt in the wound. Ness can do better at conditioning for grabs, but Charizard should generally be trying to keep him offstage, where he has the advantage over Ness due to the factors I've just mentioned. Fly does great as a OOS punish option if Ness tries to go for a grab but misses, too. I wouldn't reccomend going for smash attacks often; they leave you too open to Ness' great punishing game.

Generally, though, Charizard is the one who wants to be controlling how the match goes by forcing Ness out of his advantaged state as often as possible while still playing carefully. He's one of 'Zard's easiest MU's of the higher tier characters. Probably at worst 40/50, but I'd say it's more 55/50 in Charizard's favor; he's got all the tools to beat Ness and can exploit his critical flaws very well.
 

MintyBreeze

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#20
Well, I didn't recognize how good our jab could be against some aerial approaches - with that in mind, our jab doesn't have THAT much range.
While it's been mentioned above that Ness's moves aren't safe on Charizard's shield, I think it's sound to argue that he's better able to hover out of Charizard's range anyways - Flamethrower is relatively unsafe against Ness, for one, since he can just absorb it with PSI Magnet. Charizard's Flamethrower range lets him pester enemies as he tries to approach, or at least stop them from hovering just out of his range, sort of like Bowser's Fire Breath, and without being able to use it relatively safely he's left without an approach option in his specials, left to his normal moves and grabs. Ness on the other hand is faster than Charizard overall, has PK Fire to keep Charizard from moving forward on the ground, and can do multiple aerials as opposed to Charizard's usual one, making him better suited to punish Charizard, in my opinion, if one of them messes up. Also, Charizard's grab range isn't a ridiculous amount larger than Ness's, although it is much much more helpful within a shield. What I'm getting at is that while Ness's options against our shield are limited, so are our options to stop him from hovering practically right next to it...

With that all being said, Ness will have it rough against a Charizard who knows the match-up, even if he knows it himself. His options ARE limited. In a way, Ness has to play like Charizard - capitalizing on mistakes and reading the actions of the enemy - to beat Charizard. Overall, I would suggest that we're relatively forced to be lame here, as despite our main aerials being able to autocancel, Ness is just quick and used to approaching from the air regardless.

Also, I'm interested to see how this match-up would be different when platforms are involved, as the above that I've said could become irrelevant there.
 
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