Charizard Matchup Discussion - Mirror Matches

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#2
Eat through opposing Flamethrowers with falling Rock Smashes.

Shieldgrab opposing Nairs, Rock Smashes and Fairs.

Be very careful about edgeguarding with Flamethrower, due to the threat of Flare Blitz.

Also, a lot of people think that it is a good idea to punish a blocked Flare Blitz with one's own Flare Blitz. Unless the opponent is at a position on the stage and at a % where Flare Blitz would KO them but Usmash would not, don't. Taking Flare Blitz's recoil into account, punishing with a running Usmash is more rewarding.
 

MintyBreeze

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#3
Try to remember that a lot of Charizard's moves simply aren't safe on shields, maybe with the exception of F-Tilt, Flamethrower, and a sweetspotted N-Air. D-Tilt is useful for butting him away from jab/grab range. If they roll backward, you could go for a dash attack or dash grab to punish it.

I've found that Charizard's jab is fast enough to usually stop dash grab attempts, but if necessary, spot dodge. Absolutely conserve your rolls. Flare Blitz is a given, so try not to roll away often, and D-Smash will knock you off the stage at reasonable percents.

It's difficult to really edgeguard Charizard very well. Sure, you have Flamethrower, but he'll get back up eventually. If you go down, he could potentially Fly and that might lead to him juggling you. A backwards N-Air might make his recovery more difficult, since the sweetspot is at the beginning of the attack behind Charizard. If he's at a position where B-Air could kill him, try and mix it up between N-Air and B-Air to keep him guessing; If he gets back on-stage, F-Tilt and D-Tilt are great for kicking him back. While it's risky, since Charizard is such a large target, you could go for brownie points and get a D-Air. It has deceptive range, as he kicks his foot down.

At the start-up of Flare Blitz, you could easily attack an opposing Charizard if you're fast enough. B-Air at high percents sometimes seals the stock this way. Remember your own habits for Flare Blitz: Is the guy in the air, where he's close to the ground but can't shield? Flare Blitz. Rolling towards me? Flare Blitz. Dashing towards me? Flare Blitz. When you hear that sound, most of the time you need to get out, but if you want to end it like a man, do it this way.

I could see Rage playing a huge part in this match-up. Whether you have a stock lead, or they do, respect the red digits or you'll be hurting.

Testing on Charizard from middle of FD, no rage:
- Dies at 130% from B-Air, much earlier assuming you're near the edge.
- Dies at 110% from uncharged F-Smash
- Dies at 120% from uncharged U-Smash, better option if you're not near the edge
- Dies at 140% from uncharged D-Smash, great for punishing rolls and setting up edgeguard situations
- Seems to die at 140% from U-Throw in FD, obviously changes depending on platforms.
- Generally dies from U-Air at 120-130%, good early kill option, and covers a surprisingly large range

These are all with absolutely no rage. Charizard becomes a monster with a rage boost... But of course, that also applies to who you're fighting, so be extremely careful.

Edit: This is written from my experience of For Glory, with absolutely no platform stages. Unfortunately, then, I have next to no stage knowledge. What's written above may change depending on what stage you go to. Please take it with a grain of salt.
 
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rrrRandy

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#5
From best to worst:

Dream Land (64): For all Battlefields, bigger blast zones favour Charizard and the platforms are arranged in a way that Charizard can easily cover opponents landing on them, but also land safely on before making it back to the main platform, due to his dash speed. Why Dream Land specifically? Middle platform is closer to upper blast zone for earlier U-throw kills than the other two Battlefields, and the shape of the ledges make it more difficult for opponents to get inside Flamethrower's blind spot when used to punish recoveries. Whispy Woods can also counteract the natural pushback from the move, to keep them in it longer.

Miiverse: It's a slightly thinner Battlefield. Better than Battlefield because there are no gaps between platforms (you can U-throw anywhere in the middle without fear), slightly closer side blast zones are good for F-smash, underside of the stage gives you the option of recovering to the opposite side of the stage with Flare Blitz as opposed to stock Battlefield. Also **** drawings.

Battlefield: Big stage, nice platforms. Covered earlier.

Duck Hunt: Before 1.0.8 I'd have told you to avoid this stage like the plague, but buffed U-throw and a tree is just too cheesy. Without it you'd usually lose to more mobile/campy characters, about as bad as Delfino.

Town and City: Charizard really likes standard platform arrangements. Middle platform on the initial transformation goes kinda high, but not actually that high, and it's not even there half the time. Platforms on the second transformation are at a good height for covering from the ground. Not a big fan of smaller blast zones, though.

Lylat Cruise: Platforms, close side blast zones. Tilting ledges can make Flamethrower edge guarding janky as hell.

Smashville: Moving platform is a nice landing option, but that applies for opponents too. Less opportunity for cheesy U-throw.

Halberd: Cheesy U-throw is nice on a super low ceiling, but juggling characters benefit way more from it. Really small blast zones in general just put Charizard at a disadvantage. Sides of the main platform during the "moving" transformation mess up shorthop N-air and F-air, as well as stopping you from covering the ledges with well-spaced F-smash. Stage hazards on the ship are harder to avoid as Charizard compared to more mobile characters. Just kind of a bad stage for Charizard in general.

Final Destination: You really don't get anything from this stage. No platforms to U-throw off or land on for relative safety.

Castle Siege: Slope in the middle of first transformation sucks. Low base knockback on F-throw and B-throw means second transformation sucks. Tilting and mound of third transformation sucks. Stage sucks, hasn't been legal in my region for a while.

Delfino Plaza: You just kinda lose out due to poor mobility. Never go here, ban it every time.

(edit: realised I forgot FD)
 
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Steeler

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#6
Yeah I liked Delfino at first for hyper cheese uthrow and cheese Flare Blitz on swimmers and cheese Dragon Rush on walk off portions but you are very right. I just got camped by Yoshi there, and just maneuvering between phases was scary. If you are more mobile than the opponent (or don't get projectile camped on most parts) then it's probably a great stage. If not then it is probably terrible.
 

Splooshi Splashy

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#7
With Customs, would 1311 be the most likely deck for the mirror match? I'd imagine that it would be so for the low % KOs that Dragon Rush would grant us at the walkoffs featured in Castle Siege & Delfino, as well as at the single moving platform at Smashville. DR would also give us a distant punish option against anything we whiff from a distance, provided we don't fling ourselves onto a Flamethrower.

Would Blast Burn & Rising Cyclone be decent moves against ourselves? Or are we too fast for them to reliably land on us?

I don't think any of our other Customs would be worth taking to the mirror match, would they?

As much as I love Fire Fang giving us a quick upclose single button KO move at high enough %, giving up Flamethrower's anti-Side B powers, free edgeguard damage, and edge of stage pressure might be too much to ask. There's no projectiles for Fireball Cannon to help us wade through here.

Do we actually need Rock Hurl's frame 1 super armor against ourselves? I can't help but think that Rock Smash's frame 5 super armor will suffice. Giving up a super armored landing option by using Down 2, again, might be too much to ask.

Giving up our super armored recovery KO move (Up 1) by picking Up 3, yet again, might be too much to ask.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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#8
My answer, I switch to Peach/Lucario/Roy/Lucina

Honestly not as sure here, I'd need to be able to actually play the ditto, but outside of another guy in the area I'm the only Zard main.
 

MintyBreeze

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#9
Submitting a summary... Hopefully it's comprehensive enough. If it's much too long, let me know.

"Who is This?
:006:
Charizard, as many of you reading this may know, is a fairly heavy character. An adaptable character, with decent, ranged spacing options on the ground and air alike, ways to shake his enemy off him if he gets overwhelmed, and the mobility/aerials to become more aggressive once he's gotten a hold over the stage... He's a punisher: Add his three jumps, above average recovery with Flare Blitz and Fly, ability to gimp with the standard Flamethrower, and variety of specials to change up his strategy? While not exactly the best character, in the right hands, he can be deadly.

However, Charizard often has trouble with other defensive characters, or ones that can simply rush his defenses down. His shield and good grab range can help to mitigate this, but in some cases, his attacks can just be too slow to respond based on reaction alone. It doesn't help that some of his options can be fairly obvious, such as Flare Blitz, a falling Rock Smash... If you can find out what Charizard is doing to punish you, without him adapting, you've almost already won the game.

How does he relate to Charizard?

Refer to the above. Since this is a mirror match, it'll mostly come down to skill, knowledge of the character, and how well you can predict what the other player will do.

Approaching -
Here, your shield is one of your best friends. Neither of your attacks are really safe on shield, not causing enough knockback to slide him away, or having enough range. Really, only Flamethrower or a well-spaced N-Air are consistently safe. This makes Charizard's shieldgrab even more useful against any of their aerials and Rock Smash.

Rolling shouldn't be considered. With the threat of Flare Blitz (or really any Side-B) and Charizard's fast speed allowing him to simply dash grab/attack you if you choose to do this, it'll hurt you whether you roll away or towards them. You cannot let yourself get grabbed under any circumstances. Usually, your jab stops this. So will F-Tilt, D-Tilt, and Flamethrower from a distance.

It isn't really recommended to try and combat them from the air, considering that it makes your actions fairly predictable from then on. N-Air can be used for spacing, however, it's punishable on shield; Same with the other aerials. Usually, the aggressor here, as well as on the ground, is at a disadvantage. If you have more of the stage to fall back on, though, they become more useful for being aggressive.

Remember, Charizard is a punisher. Considering that many of his own moves are laggy and punishable if they miss, like F-Air, B-Air, Rock Smash, if you can bait them out and respond with your own (like F-Tilt, another aerial, or a simple grab) you can gain control of the stage, with more room to space them out. In particular, if you block a Flare Blitz... Don't Flare Blitz them back. That's dumb. Just run up and quickly U-Smash them.
Speaking of Flare Blitz... Use this move very sparingly. Trick them into thinking you only use it for recovery by sweetspotting the ledge, or moving to another spot on the stage above them. Purposefully ignore it. Be patient, even if you're a giant lizard dragon, and use it when they absolutely don't expect it.

Tips -
Watch out for Rock Smash if you're the one doing the juggling, as you can start the process over if they botch it. Charizard doesn't have options for landing right next to the opponent, but Flare Blitz can help him escape in the air.

Flare Blitz, on start-up, can be punished if you react quickly. A B-Air could end the match in style if you react quickly enough.

If you notice the other Charizard is abusing their Flamethrower, and you're in the air, move above them and Rock Smash. With Flamethrower, it's a very useful tool for stopping rushes; Say, if you're at the end of the stage and don't want to get knocked off. It can also be useful for edgeguarding Charizard, but Flare Blitz and Fly can make this fairly dangerous. Charizard will most likely not be gimped by any of your attacks on-stage; It's at this point where you can easily kill with attacks like your B-Air and Smash Attacks. U-Throw is also a safe, reliable option to kill with.

Overall, though, it isn't recommended to try and heavily edgeguard Charizard. While he's a large target, it can be difficult to get past Fly, Flare Blitz, and his extra jumps, all of which can allow him to attack.

Another important note: Rage. While you most definitely don't want to get your percents higher than necessary, it's important to consider the enemy's rage and your own. As Charizard has such heavy attacks, the knockback increase definitely benefits him. Add his ability to recover in both directions, durability to trade hits, and general defensive options, this can allow for surprisingly early kills. Just make sure you respect your opponent when he has it... Often, it's after one of you has lost a stock that the other has rage, not the reverse.

Stage options: Refer to this!
http://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-discussion-mirror-matches.407885/#post-19524606

Customs: As Dragon Rush is less risky, and Charizard doesn't have any projectiles worth worrying about, this seems like a more logical choice."

Is the format good? Was it too long and not good for visitors to the threads? I hope that these threads can be useful to people just looking into specific match-ups, instead of being short and to the point, like guidelines. Any suggestions that could be followed to make this better, or a revision entirely, would make me happy.
 

Swamp Sensei

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#10
So... Strider755 Strider755 and I had a bunch of Zard dittos!

I think this matchup is one reliant on mobility. The most mobile Zard wins.

That sounds like "well duh, this is Smash Bros" but I feel it's worth mentioning here.

A campy Zard player just won't win against a more mobile one.



Any thoughts after our battles Strider755 Strider755 ?
 

Strider755

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#11
You're exactly right, Swamp Sensei Swamp Sensei . I struggled at first because I was playing too defensively, and I did a lot better after being a bit more aggressive. I also struggled at first with mobility because I'm still working on perfecting my neutral game.
 
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