Charizard Matchup Discussion - Meta Knight

ggamer77

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#2
This can be a pretty difficult matchup for Zard from my experience. If the Meta Knight knows how to juggle well they can get you off the top often with Meta Knight's recovery. I had to deal with this so much while fighting a really good Meta Knight of For Glory once.
Meta Knights dash attack also puts Zard in a bad position above them.

Basically Meta Knight can juggle Charizard really hard. So best bet is to keep them from getting you in the air.
 

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#3
I think Meta Knight has REALLY bad neutral but great reward.

If you can keep him in neutral, I think you win.
 

Leety

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#4
Meta Knight feels kind of unexplored in this game, much like our Charizard. Unfortunately, we don't have any sort of information regarding two top players using Zard and MK to have a clear representation of what it's like, but I do have a friend who mains Metaknight so I feel like I at least have somewhat of an understanding.of this match.

However, from what I have played vs MK, I feel we might actually have an advantage just due to our bulk as MK will have a tough time to get us to the blast zone. MK has a really tough time to kill us with any Smash move unless we're at High%s But this is an odd sort of advantage that's a little unclear so it's a bit easier to tell what a battle feels like with MK.

Playing a Meta Knight is kind of like playing Fortress. We never have a reason to approach Meta Knight, ever nor should we be thinking about it. Instead we should utilize our defensive tools to keep MK from really doing anything to us. MK has a very difficult time to approach us for several reasons.

Our Flamethrower should keep MK at a safe distance, our D-tilt is good for any ground commitments he might make, jab when he gets a little too close to us, and shield for our last line of defense to possibly shield grab the little guy. Air options are almost completely shut down due to our nice up smash and up-tilt which MK really needs to respect. Just be sure to watch out for cross-ups

So what's the catch to all of this? Well, during this game of fortress, it is quite possible that MK can find an opening, kill our king, then just leave without us even noticing. If he finds a moment where we let our guard down and whiff a move, he will go in. MK is a very momentum based character, if he can place us into a situation, then he'll surely try to follow up and Zard being so large, it's not too difficult to do so. An U-air string into U-B is what you'll have to watch out for the most. He's also got some pretty good edge guard tools and off stage game that you just have to respect. Remember the train of thought when getting comboed, DI away from the stage when being attacked by moves that aren't kill moves, but DI towards when being launched by a kill move. If you're getting U-air stringed, then use one of your jumps to get out of it and watch out getting juggled further.

This also reminds me, don't challenge MK in the air, his priority is just nuts. It's in our best interest to stay grounded during the fight. We might be able to do something if we get a solid read on our B-air, but that's about it. Only F-air for combos (and possibly U-air/fly if you can get him into enough of a hit stun?), nothing more.

Only use Blitz as a way to get back to the stage. If you see the guy trying to go ham on you with off-stage game, recover high and gain stage control back. If he's trying to guard the edge, then use blitz to snap back onto the stage's edge. We should try to avoid situations where we have to recover low as MK is pretty good at landing a wall spike if you're not careful

Oh, and watch out for surprise Dimensional capes, they hurt ha ha.

But overall, the game is going to be about MK trying to push us to play the edge game and pop us to the edge and our game is to stay grounded and give MK as tough of a time as possible to approach us.

I think this might be a 55-45 in our favor simply because of our bulk and the fact that MK just has to work a lot more for the kill and we just need to bait him in to one of our many kill options. But the advantage does seem a little unclear since MK can put us in a situation where he just kills us at a low % Looking foward to what others think though.

Almost forgot stages.
Places with platforms would benefit us most definitely. It's so that we're not always forced to make strict air dodges if popped into the air and can't complain about early kills with an up throw. He's got one of those too but our's kills quicker.
 
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#5
This video was made to be an example for this discussion.
I was Charizard. Zonez, a notable Anther's Ladder MK main, was MK.

You guys are pretty on-point with the idea that if Charizard walls MK out, MK can't get into his extreme advantageous state. MK's neutral isn't horrible, in fact MK's Rosalina's worst MU because of how easily he punishes Rosa's neutral, but he lacks the tools to throw up a solid defense so his defense becomes either his offense or excellent stage movement. MK excels at getting in and keeping up pressure and Zard excels at walling out and keeping stage control so this becomes a MUs of extremes where MK & Zard fight for stage control then go ham on the other when they get it.

In neutral, Zard has to watch out for 4 moves in particular: Dash Attack, Dash Grab, Up-Tilt, & F-Smash. The first 3 moves are MK's combo-starters. That's where most of his damage is going to come from. He can net upwards of 40-50% off true combos alone. MK's F-Smash comes out the first frame after he releases his charge (frame 24 otherwise) and has only 18 frames of cooldown which makes it safe on shield. The move is pretty safe to just spam and Zard shouldn't try to punish it with anything but Flamethrower or a very well-timed Dash Attack. Zard dies mid-stage at 90% from the sourspot (the tip) alone with no rage. I have no problem calling MK's F-Smash the stupidest F-Smash in the game; disjointed, Ganondorf-level powerful, and safe on shield. At high-percent, it's dangerous for Zard to overcommit to Jabs or Flamethrowers because Dimensional Cape Slash is a very real threat and MK will likely try to dissuade you from using Flamethrower by faking you out with Cape. Always be on-guard against it.

Zard just has to play a solid spacing game with Jabs, Flamethrower, & D-tilt and punish anything he can as hard as he can because MK has to approach becaus ehe can't defend against Charizard's approach. You can grab MK after his Dash Attack if you know it's coming, the timing is just really strict. MK as the same DA as Falcon but it has slightly less lag. To punish, you have to turn around and grab immediately after dropping shield if MK crosses-up with it. I've had it done to me before so I know it's doable. Just abuse the fact that MK's grounded approach options are super limited (Dash Attack & Dash Grab only) and Zard can bat his aerials away with his own SH F-Air or Up-Smash (frame 6 Up-Smash so godlike against MK's D-Air pressure). Flamethrower is GOAT all the time.

If Charizard gets caught in the air, that could be his stock and even as low as 40%. MK's Up-Air combo KOs are a huge X-factor in this MU. If you DI the first hit of aerial Shuttle Loop up and toward MK, the 2nd hit of aerial Shuttle Loop may not connect similar to ZSS' Up-B. There is a sweetspot however that is questionably guaranteed but positioning MK to land it before a character can air dodge away is very tricky and honestly dependent on how you DI the Up-Airs. Also beware of Up-Air fake-outs. Some MKs (like me) will instead of going for Shuttle Loop at the end of a low% Up-Air chain will wait for an air dodge and Mach Tornado you for a possible extra 23% (yes Nado does 23% in this game). Nado is also used as a mix-up just like it was in Brawl. If MK looks like he's going to land beside you without an attack because you shielded his aerial pokes, he may Nado just before he lands and you drop shield to grab or punish. Exactly how it was used in Brawl. It eats Shields like nothing else tho so be wary of that. If you have less than half shield left, MK may go for raw Dimensional Capes or Nados to attempt to break your shield.

If you're being juggled, I would advise you to go for ledge if you can. MK has no aerial that beats Flare Blitz armor so Zard gets a free ledge at the cost of 5% of course. If you can read MK well tho, you can land with N-Air, Flamethrower, or even Rock Smash like always. Just know he's always looking for an Up-Air, Up-Tilt, Grab, or Dash Attack when you try to land. Maybe an F-Smash but we Rock Smash those for big damage.

I'd be willing to sign on a 55:45 :4charizard:'s favor. Zard doesn't have to get nearly as close to MK as the rest of the cast to pressure him so MK's tilts and most notable F-Smash become non-factors and if MK gets close enough for those moves to matter, Jab & D-Tilt bats him back out if we don't grab him first. Up-Throw KOs MK very early and he can't even stage CP Zard because MK's best stages (Halberd, Delphino, Dream Land, & Duck Hunt) all make Zard's Up-Throw even more deadly. However do not underestimate MK's Dash Attack, Dash Grab, and juggle game. One bad read on Charizard's part can cost him half his stock. MK's crazy advantageous state is the only reason I don't quite think this MU is 60:40 :4charizard: (but I'd still probably sign on that too); MK can invalidate Zard's hard work in one swift motion.
 

Steeler

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#6
I know this is slightly off topic, but @ Katakiri Katakiri do you care to elaborate on why MK beats Rosa so hard? Is it basically just his dash speed + dash attack + dash grab being able to come in so easily on whiffed moves?

I'd like to add that Charizard's Fly is also the GOAT. Once MK is sufficiently scared of your armor options, his respect drastically limits what he can do in neutral.
 

warionumbah2

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#7
This video was made to be an example for this discussion.
I was Charizard. Zonez, a notable Anther's Ladder MK main, was MK.

You guys are pretty on-point with the idea that if Charizard walls MK out, MK can't get into his extreme advantageous state. MK's neutral isn't horrible, in fact MK's Rosalina's worst MU because of how easily he punishes Rosa's neutral, but he lacks the tools to throw up a solid defense so his defense becomes either his offense or excellent stage movement. MK excels at getting in and keeping up pressure and Zard excels at walling out and keeping stage control so this becomes a MUs of extremes where MK & Zard fight for stage control then go ham on the other when they get it.

In neutral, Zard has to watch out for 4 moves in particular: Dash Attack, Dash Grab, Up-Tilt, & F-Smash. The first 3 moves are MK's combo-starters. That's where most of his damage is going to come from. He can net upwards of 40-50% off true combos alone. MK's F-Smash comes out the first frame after he releases his charge (frame 24 otherwise) and has only 18 frames of cooldown which makes it safe on shield. The move is pretty safe to just spam and Zard shouldn't try to punish it with anything but Flamethrower or a very well-timed Dash Attack. Zard dies mid-stage at 90% from the sourspot (the tip) alone with no rage. I have no problem calling MK's F-Smash the stupidest F-Smash in the game; disjointed, Ganondorf-level powerful, and safe on shield. At high-percent, it's dangerous for Zard to overcommit to Jabs or Flamethrowers because Dimensional Cape Slash is a very real threat and MK will likely try to dissuade you from using Flamethrower by faking you out with Cape. Always be on-guard against it.

Zard just has to play a solid spacing game with Jabs, Flamethrower, & D-tilt and punish anything he can as hard as he can because MK has to approach becaus ehe can't defend against Charizard's approach. You can grab MK after his Dash Attack if you know it's coming, the timing is just really strict. MK as the same DA as Falcon but it has slightly less lag. To punish, you have to turn around and grab immediately after dropping shield if MK crosses-up with it. I've had it done to me before so I know it's doable. Just abuse the fact that MK's grounded approach options are super limited (Dash Attack & Dash Grab only) and Zard can bat his aerials away with his own SH F-Air or Up-Smash (frame 6 Up-Smash so godlike against MK's D-Air pressure). Flamethrower is GOAT all the time.

If Charizard gets caught in the air, that could be his stock and even as low as 40%. MK's Up-Air combo KOs are a huge X-factor in this MU. If you DI the first hit of aerial Shuttle Loop up and toward MK, the 2nd hit of aerial Shuttle Loop may not connect similar to ZSS' Up-B. There is a sweetspot however that is questionably guaranteed but positioning MK to land it before a character can air dodge away is very tricky and honestly dependent on how you DI the Up-Airs. Also beware of Up-Air fake-outs. Some MKs (like me) will instead of going for Shuttle Loop at the end of a low% Up-Air chain will wait for an air dodge and Mach Tornado you for a possible extra 23% (yes Nado does 23% in this game). Nado is also used as a mix-up just like it was in Brawl. If MK looks like he's going to land beside you without an attack because you shielded his aerial pokes, he may Nado just before he lands and you drop shield to grab or punish. Exactly how it was used in Brawl. It eats Shields like nothing else tho so be wary of that. If you have less than half shield left, MK may go for raw Dimensional Capes or Nados to attempt to break your shield.

If you're being juggled, I would advise you to go for ledge if you can. MK has no aerial that beats Flare Blitz armor so Zard gets a free ledge at the cost of 5% of course. If you can read MK well tho, you can land with N-Air, Flamethrower, or even Rock Smash like always. Just know he's always looking for an Up-Air, Up-Tilt, Grab, or Dash Attack when you try to land. Maybe an F-Smash but we Rock Smash those for big damage.

I'd be willing to sign on a 55:45 :4charizard:'s favor. Zard doesn't have to get nearly as close to MK as the rest of the cast to pressure him so MK's tilts and most notable F-Smash become non-factors and if MK gets close enough for those moves to matter, Jab & D-Tilt bats him back out if we don't grab him first. Up-Throw KOs MK very early and he can't even stage CP Zard because MK's best stages (Halberd, Delphino, Dream Land, & Duck Hunt) all make Zard's Up-Throw even more deadly. However do not underestimate MK's Dash Attack, Dash Grab, and juggle game. One bad read on Charizard's part can cost him half his stock. MK's crazy advantageous state is the only reason I don't quite think this MU is 60:40 :4charizard: (but I'd still probably sign on that too); MK can invalidate Zard's hard work in one swift motion.
Resetting to the ledge is a bad idea, Charizards is putting himself at yet another disadvantage position. Covering Charizards ledge options with jab can easily be done on reaction(covers all get up options other than roll) , MK doesn't cover ledge options via reads its all reaction based,.

Against the MK in that vid its ok to reset to the ledge since they aren't competent enough to abuse people near the ledge. Charizards Side B armoring through our aerials is like us beating out Falcons aerials with Drill rush, but what if the Falcon waits on stage? That's where the problem arises, you got a free ledge but the player is smart enough to not give up stage control MKs at high level do this frequently such as Ito and tyrant even being able to react with FH Uair to Shuttle loop if you jump get up. You can literally get +40% from bullying people at the ledge, Charizard having a fast fall speed and large hurtbox means he'll be taking +15% from jab alone and off he goes off stage again. Unlike us he cannot mix up his recovery that well, he can Side B through the air but we are mobile enough to chase him down and he'll useually end up right where he started: On the ledge.

MK users can choose if they want their DA to cross shield or not, the knee jerk reaction if it does cross up shield is rising Dair which swats characters away that try to turn around and grab. I can name several characters that doesn't have to get nearly as close to MK as the rest of the cast to pressure him, boxing MK out isn't an anomaly and isn''t something that tips MUs into their favor IMO.

Landing the sweetspot of shuttle loop is no challenge due to Charizards wide hurtbox(Bowser and D3 suffer from this as well), a reliable method is for example DA --> Uair x4 --> Use your 5th jump and then Shuttle loop. The last jump puts you closer to Charizard while he's still in hitstun and thus kills him at certain percents depending on rage/stage of course.

This MU is similar to Marths but nowhere near as difficult, his disadvantage state is worse and his landing options are easy to predict despite 3 jumps and he cannot pressure us off stage like Marth can. Marth can fast fall and DB even if you shield its a guessing game: does he stop mid way or does he go for the downward version to poke your shield. Charizard only has rock smash and FF nair which is easily punished on reaction, Nair gets punished by Shuttle loop OOS.

This MU is basically alot of walking for MK, he has no reason to run around into shield, walking and foxtrotting is what he goes for. His initial dash lasts a long time, so long as his wings are still out he can DA(why i think his baiting is so good). MK generally has no best stages its a myth, he excels at loads of stages but its heavily MU dependent. You don't take Sheik to SV, you don't take Rosalina to Halberd ect. Despite Charizards silly up throw everytime he picks a stage like Halberd he's putting himself at risk, MKs at this current meta need to capitalize on their punishes like Leo what happens if the meta shifts in that direction?

Has this MU been played at high level before? Hard to visualize how this plays out based on the video above, everytime i see this MU(like EVO) its always a better player using Charizard against a MK that doesn't know how to bait properly or fight /space footsie heavy characters in general or straight up can't use MK(like the one at EVO using Drill rush onstage). I'll say the opposite to your ratio Katakiri, its only in Charizards favor if Mk does dumb **** like Dair camp above his head, goes off stage to challenge Side B, not covering get up options, not baiting airdodges to kill below 100% ect.

I'm willing to play any Charizards on this board. Sadly my online isn't all that great so i'll only play Charizard mains that live in EU.

@W.A.C. @ ZTD | TECHnology ZTD | TECHnology @ItoI6 <--Probz won't post but oh well @Ulevo @ Amadeus9 Amadeus9

Input would be helpful fellow bats.
 
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Katakiri
#8
I know this is slightly off topic, but @ Katakiri Katakiri do you care to elaborate on why MK beats Rosa so hard? Is it basically just his dash speed + dash attack + dash grab being able to come in so easily on whiffed moves?

I'd like to add that Charizard's Fly is also the GOAT. Once MK is sufficiently scared of your armor options, his respect drastically limits what he can do in neutral.
It's actually a lot more than that. Basically the MU boils down to a few factors:
  • Unlike most characters, almost every single move MK has knocks Luma away. I think D-tilt & Up-Air are the only moves that don't. Even his throws knock Luma away when he throws Rosa. With MK's mobility options, he can dance around Rosalina's Jab wall and wrangle them into a position where MK can simply Dash Attack or DA to N-Air to KO Luma. Additionally, as of a couple patches ago, F-Tilt knocks Luma FAR away making her Jab wall even less safe. If I really want Luma dead and I have no safer options, I can Drill Rush into Luma and drag it with me to KO it from anywhere on the stage even if Rosalina herself shields the move; MK bounces off Luma on the final hit so I can even drag it off-stage and still recover.
  • If MK messes up and Rosa shields his move, Luma at least gets knocked away so only Rosalina is punishing shielded moves. I could Nado Rosa's shield and, if it doesn't shield-poke, the worst I get punished with is a Solo Rosalina Smash Attack since the last hit of Nado knocks Luma away.
  • Effectively, Rosalina doesn't get a Luma for 70% of this MU. Luma gets knocked off-stage by MK far too easily. Rosa will be lucky to have 10 full seconds of consistently having a Luma. Rosa is constantly on the run waiting for Luma to respawn just to have a chance of boxing-out MK and MK is far faster than her.
  • Dimensional Cape makes her Jab & Smashes unsafe. One wrong button press and "FOOL", she's dead. MK can use Dimensional Cape to fake her out with the Slash-less variant of Cape and either condition her not to Jab (literally scaring her from using her best option too often) or use it look for an input before committing to the Slash to punish her.
  • Rosalina is a perfect weight & size that she gets Up-Air chained into the upper blast-zone VERY consistently at stupid-low percents. Even if I don't get the gimp, MK also has very powerful KO moves in F-Smash, Up-Smash, B-Air, Shuttle Loop, and Dimensional Cape so her light weight and size makes it rare to see Rosa live much past 100% against MK and one good Up-Air chain does at least 30~40% and that's not even counting the follow-ups MK can get by abusing Rosalina's floatiness and difficulty with landing. If Rosa loses neutral 3 times, that's probably her stock.
  • MK isn't afraid of Rosa in the air. 5 mid-air jumps and a teleport with decent air speed makes MK very hard for Rosa to KO with Up-Airs. And if Rosa whiffs Up-Air because MK air dodged, MK falls below her and gets a free Up-Air chain KO off the top.
  • Rosalina's recovery vs Meta Knight's edge-guarding. I don't even need to explain how bad that situation is.
Pretty much anything people complain about Rosalina for, MK kinda just disregards. "Luma?...Oh you mean the Soccer Ball.:4metaknight:" "Yeah that's a nice Up-Air but...have you seen mine?:4metaknight:"
I'm willing to play any Charizards on this board. Sadly my online isn't all that great so i'll only play Charizard mains that live in EU.
Step up your internet-game so I can fry-up those Wings extra crispy.:4charizard:
 
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ZTD | TECHnology

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#9
55-45 in MK's favor. If we do dumb **** (hitting his shield like an idiot, not properly timing strings so Rock Smash intercepts, letting him live past 150) this MU gets hard. This is a MU where I play incredibly lame most of the time.

Charizard has useful zoning tools and strong punishes. But MK still wins neutral and racks up damage better. Our strings and juggle game are devastating. The MU gets really hard for us if we allow Zard to live too long. Then you have pray you don't get grabbed. For us, its about finding the right balance of respecting Zards options but not letting that cloud our vision.
 
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Amadeus9

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#10
I would say the most notable thing about the matchup from the limited experience I have against playing zard (there are very few of you after all), is flamethrower. It pretty effectively walls us, ground approaches are all we have, and flamethrower, tilts, and jabs can keep us out.

On the flip side of this, charizard has no way to get in on us if we are playing lame. I would ideally take this matchup to smashville or town and camp, get an advantage and then stall. Maybe circle camp. We're much, much more mobile than you and can and will convert a percent or stock lead into a time out victory if we know what we are doing. Just because of this fact I would say the matchup is 60:40 in our favor, maybe 55:45, only because we have to get the advantage first, but if the Mk is playing aggressive, which they absolutely should not, then the matchup ratio is reversed. But that situation comes up from us playing the matchup wrong.

It plays kind of similarly to the rob matchup, except zard doesn't have lasers and gyros to force us to approach.

Edit: also it isn't even that hard to get an advantage playing this way, you're bound to get frustrated and commit to an unsafe approach, and when you do, our hits confirm for massive damage.
 
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Saturn_

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#11
Me in the another thread:
I actually think Charizard wins this matchup pretty solidly, though my experience is limited. I played :4luigi: against a :4metaknight: in bracket and lost, switched to :4charizard: and won. EVERYTHING you do completely outspaces MK, who is already a spacing character. Dtilt just does so much gd work in this matchup, and because MK wants to get under you and juggle you straight up, he's very vulnerable to Rock Smash in a way left-to-right characters (like :4sheik:) are not; and because MK's reach is so short, he's very likely to eat the full 30% when you use it while grounded. MK is very light and the same stages he likes are the same stages where he dies at 60% to upthrow. Flare Blitz is also an incredible now-I-win maneuver against a very aggressive Meta Knight. SH-nair, already one of Zard's best tools in neutral, shuts down most of MK's approaches, and he while he still has great edgeguarding tools against you, your three jumps and super armor make it harder for him to gimp you. Your defensive strengths cover his offensive strengths extremely well. I don't have a strong opinion on the exact split but I guess I'd call it 60-40 in Zard's favor.
I just wanted to add a few things in light of what's been said in this thread:

-:4metaknight: has an unbelievably hard time approaching :4charizard:. Zard wins the neutral in this matchup in my opinion
-:4charizard: doesn't have to approach because of dtilt and neutral-b. Even Jab3 puts in work. MK's best approach by far is dash attack, so playing campy also makes it hard for him to use his best tools.
-With Castle Siege no longer legal in my meta, I can't think of a single bad stage for Zard in this matchup. I guess Halberd benefits MK more than Zard, I guess? But every stage aids Zard's strengths as well
-Charizard's grab outspaces MK's upair-upB setups, which means your best kill option is easier to land than their best kill option

In MK's favor:
-Meta Knight doesn't have to play 'straight up' and can focus almost solely on gimps & upair/up-b setups. Zard get combo'd hard and doesn't have the tools to break out of juggles once they get started, so Meta Knight can pretty much just fish for setups once Zard's at 65/75%
-Tornado is very good against :4charizard:, if I actually played :4metaknight: I might have the confidence to say "extremely good"
-MK can overwhelm Zard because his frame data is so much better, once Meta Knight gets in it is very easy for him to create multi-hit strings and keep them going with things like regrab and dtilt

I'm pretty sure Duck Hunt is Charizard's best stage in this matchup. MK players should always strike that stage, I believe.
Again, I don't have very strong opinions on this, but I believe the MU is at least :4charizard: 55:45 :4metaknight:
 
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RAzul

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#12
This video was made to be an example for this discussion.
I was Charizard. Zonez, a notable Anther's Ladder MK main, was MK.

You guys are pretty on-point with the idea that if Charizard walls MK out, MK can't get into his extreme advantageous state. MK's neutral isn't horrible, in fact MK's Rosalina's worst MU because of how easily he punishes Rosa's neutral, but he lacks the tools to throw up a solid defense so his defense becomes either his offense or excellent stage movement. MK excels at getting in and keeping up pressure and Zard excels at walling out and keeping stage control so this becomes a MUs of extremes where MK & Zard fight for stage control then go ham on the other when they get it.

In neutral, Zard has to watch out for 4 moves in particular: Dash Attack, Dash Grab, Up-Tilt, & F-Smash. The first 3 moves are MK's combo-starters. That's where most of his damage is going to come from. He can net upwards of 40-50% off true combos alone. MK's F-Smash comes out the first frame after he releases his charge (frame 24 otherwise) and has only 18 frames of cooldown which makes it safe on shield. The move is pretty safe to just spam and Zard shouldn't try to punish it with anything but Flamethrower or a very well-timed Dash Attack. Zard dies mid-stage at 90% from the sourspot (the tip) alone with no rage. I have no problem calling MK's F-Smash the stupidest F-Smash in the game; disjointed, Ganondorf-level powerful, and safe on shield. At high-percent, it's dangerous for Zard to overcommit to Jabs or Flamethrowers because Dimensional Cape Slash is a very real threat and MK will likely try to dissuade you from using Flamethrower by faking you out with Cape. Always be on-guard against it.

Zard just has to play a solid spacing game with Jabs, Flamethrower, & D-tilt and punish anything he can as hard as he can because MK has to approach becaus ehe can't defend against Charizard's approach. You can grab MK after his Dash Attack if you know it's coming, the timing is just really strict. MK as the same DA as Falcon but it has slightly less lag. To punish, you have to turn around and grab immediately after dropping shield if MK crosses-up with it. I've had it done to me before so I know it's doable. Just abuse the fact that MK's grounded approach options are super limited (Dash Attack & Dash Grab only) and Zard can bat his aerials away with his own SH F-Air or Up-Smash (frame 6 Up-Smash so godlike against MK's D-Air pressure). Flamethrower is GOAT all the time.

If Charizard gets caught in the air, that could be his stock and even as low as 40%. MK's Up-Air combo KOs are a huge X-factor in this MU. If you DI the first hit of aerial Shuttle Loop up and toward MK, the 2nd hit of aerial Shuttle Loop may not connect similar to ZSS' Up-B. There is a sweetspot however that is questionably guaranteed but positioning MK to land it before a character can air dodge away is very tricky and honestly dependent on how you DI the Up-Airs. Also beware of Up-Air fake-outs. Some MKs (like me) will instead of going for Shuttle Loop at the end of a low% Up-Air chain will wait for an air dodge and Mach Tornado you for a possible extra 23% (yes Nado does 23% in this game). Nado is also used as a mix-up just like it was in Brawl. If MK looks like he's going to land beside you without an attack because you shielded his aerial pokes, he may Nado just before he lands and you drop shield to grab or punish. Exactly how it was used in Brawl. It eats Shields like nothing else tho so be wary of that. If you have less than half shield left, MK may go for raw Dimensional Capes or Nados to attempt to break your shield.

If you're being juggled, I would advise you to go for ledge if you can. MK has no aerial that beats Flare Blitz armor so Zard gets a free ledge at the cost of 5% of course. If you can read MK well tho, you can land with N-Air, Flamethrower, or even Rock Smash like always. Just know he's always looking for an Up-Air, Up-Tilt, Grab, or Dash Attack when you try to land. Maybe an F-Smash but we Rock Smash those for big damage.

I'd be willing to sign on a 55:45 :4charizard:'s favor. Zard doesn't have to get nearly as close to MK as the rest of the cast to pressure him so MK's tilts and most notable F-Smash become non-factors and if MK gets close enough for those moves to matter, Jab & D-Tilt bats him back out if we don't grab him first. Up-Throw KOs MK very early and he can't even stage CP Zard because MK's best stages (Halberd, Delphino, Dream Land, & Duck Hunt) all make Zard's Up-Throw even more deadly. However do not underestimate MK's Dash Attack, Dash Grab, and juggle game. One bad read on Charizard's part can cost him half his stock. MK's crazy advantageous state is the only reason I don't quite think this MU is 60:40 :4charizard: (but I'd still probably sign on that too); MK can invalidate Zard's hard work in one swift motion.
That was an INCREDIBLE set by the both of you. I thoroughly enjoyed the entire thing from a player, analyst and Smash fan perspective. Your Charizard seemed to be doing just about all the right things. Your knowledge in this MU is absolutely crisp. Kudos to you and thank you for this. 9:10-9:14 was such a beautiful sequence. I creamed myself when I saw it. I'll be analyzing this video.
 

Swamp Sensei

Today is always the most enjoyable day!
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#13
So.

The matchup is really weird now.

I'm thinking Meta Knight by a hair.
 
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