Charizard Matchup Discussion - Mario

miniada

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miniada
#2
Mario main here IMO :4mario:55:45:4charizard: he combos him edgeguards him punishes him has better mobility and has up smash to ruin his landing
 

EvilPinkamina

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EvilPinkamina
#3
I think it might be even or slightly in Mario's favor, like miniada said.

Mario has powerful combos against heavyweights and doesn't struggle with getting the kill. However, Charizard really benefits from rage, and while Mario doesn't struggle with killing, rarely ever will he get the kill at a low enough percent to mitigate Zard's rage factor. On top of that, Mario isn't at a weight level where he can get out of Zard's combos but he's still light enough to die early from Zard.
 

Jmacz

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#5
I have a lot of games played in this MU, I'm not that good but I'll give what I think anyway. We give Mario some trouble getting in because we out range him by a lot. He can combo us pretty hard but rock smash can help here. We have an easier time edge guarding than Mario, even just using Flamethrower can get you an early kill because of how bad Mario's recovery is. He's the right size and weight for follow ups from our downthrow, and apparently we can escape his U-Tilt combo after one hit with either proper DI and a jump, or a rock smash. Mario also can't be predictable with his U-Smash as our super armor on Rock Smash seems to be a bit better (I may be wrong about that).

The MU is pretty even imo, with Charizard getting a slight advantage on stages with platforms (Especially Battlefield, Dreamland, and Town and City) and Mario getting a slight advantage on FD.
 

charizardbro

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#8
I have a lot of games played in this MU, I'm not that good but I'll give what I think anyway. We give Mario some trouble getting in because we out range him by a lot. He can combo us pretty hard but rock smash can help here. We have an easier time edge guarding than Mario, even just using Flamethrower can get you an early kill because of how bad Mario's recovery is. He's the right size and weight for follow ups from our downthrow, and apparently we can escape his U-Tilt combo after one hit with either proper DI and a jump, or a rock smash. Mario also can't be predictable with his U-Smash as our super armor on Rock Smash seems to be a bit better (I may be wrong about that).

The MU is pretty even imo, with Charizard getting a slight advantage on stages with platforms (Especially Battlefield, Dreamland, and Town and City) and Mario getting a slight advantage on FD.
Pretty much this. The entire MU is contingent on us keeping Mario out. If we let Mario get grabs and Utilts (bear in mind some of his aerials confirm into grabs at low percent), he can outdamage us very quickly. But if we deny Mario combo starters, we actually stand a pretty even chance of outplaying him in neutral. We just have to not get blown out of the water in advantage. Rock Smash is also really good if you can catch Mario charging a Usmash to punish your landing, like Jmacz said.

A couple of tidbits about Mario though: He can cape Flare Blitz. Fludd causes Flare Blitz to travel diagonal and up in the direction you used it in. It's really hard to tech the stage spike if he Dair/Uspecials you offstage. Dair actually autocancels pretty well so be alert if you try to punish it on shield.

And that's about all I got for this one.

Edit: 55:45 in favor of Mario if I had to give it a number.
 
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kendikong

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#9
I zero to 100'd a really pro mario once just from flamethrower and shield grab alone and I did not move from my position.

If you just keep mario out, the matchup is not that difficult
 
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Ridleylash
#10
Honestly, the key to the Mario MU, in my opinion, is patience. Rushing in at him is almost a surefire way to go right into his UTilt combo, which is pretty bad for us since we're so big, it means we get stuck there for longer than other characters. But Flamethrower can be a pretty useful tool, and Mario can't use his Cape to reflect it too well; since it's a continuous projectile, he'll still get hit regardless. It cancels out his Fireballs, too.

However, Mario has some issues with recovering, which is what we need to exploit to win this MU. Pressure him offstage and play some mindgames on him; since Mario's recovery isn't the best, playing mindgames such as going for a spike and not actually spiking can spook Mario into doing something he shouldn't, like airdodging or throwing out a UAir. From there, you can either actually drop down and spike him or go back onstage as Mario falls to his doom. If you suspect he'll use the Cape on you, go for a BAir; if Mario does go for the cape, he'll only be delivering a BAir to himself. Keeping Mario offstage is important in the MU. Bait out FAirs and punish them. Fly OOS is a powerful punish against Mario, since he needs to get close to get consistent damage.

But whatever we do, DO NOT USE FLARE BLITZ AGAINST HIM. At least not to get onstage; any Mario worth his salt will use the Cape to turn us right around and cause us to lose a stock. If we need to use Flare Blitz, use it above the stage, where it's more unlikely for Mario to be able to use the Cape on us. Rock Smash is a good approach option from the air, as is FAir. Just keep pressuring Mario offstage and the MU becomes easier.
 
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Lyserdon

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420BlitzIt
#11
Honestly, the key to the Mario MU, in my opinion, is patience. Rushing in at him is almost a surefire way to go right into his UTilt combo, which is pretty bad for us since we're so big, it means we get stuck there for longer than other characters. But Flamethrower can be a pretty useful tool, and Mario can't use his Cape to reflect it too well; since it's a continuous projectile, he'll still get hit regardless. It cancels out his Fireballs, too.

However, Mario has some issues with recovering, which is what we need to exploit to win this MU. Pressure him offstage and play some mindgames on him; since Mario's recovery isn't the best, playing mindgames such as going for a spike and not actually spiking can spook Mario into doing something he shouldn't, like airdodging or throwing out a UAir. From there, you can either actually drop down and spike him or go back onstage as Mario falls to his doom. If you suspect he'll use the Cape on you, go for a BAir; if Mario does go for the cape, he'll only be delivering a BAir to himself. Keeping Mario offstage is important in the MU. Bait out FAirs and punish them. Fly OOS is a powerful punish against Mario, since he needs to get close to

But whatever we do, DO NOT USE FLARE BLITZ AGAINST HIM. At least not to get onstage; any Mario worth his salt will use the Cape to turn us right around and cause us to lose a stock. If we need to use Flare Blitz, use it above the stage, where it's more unlikely for Mario to be able to use the Cape on us. Rock Smash is a good approach option from the air, as is FAir. Just keep pressuring Mario offstage and the MU becomes easier.
I agree with all of this with one exception. Mario's utilt shenanigans don't really work on us. I usually start mashing down b after the first utilt and he's lucky to get a second in. I don't think he's ever managed to utilt me three times in a row, even at super low percentages. He either eats a full rocksmash hit or stops his combo and resets (btw, has anyone labbed rocksmash strings? I know its unreliable due to rng but I seem to occasionally be able to combo rocksmash into fsmash or usmash if the shards knock them in the right direction.)
 
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Ridleylash
#12
I agree with all of this with one exception. Mario's utilt shenanigans don't really work on us. I usually start mashing down b after the first utilt and he's lucky to get a second in. I don't think he's ever managed to utilt me three times in a row, even at super low percentages.
Really? I thought that was a technique Mario could do to all characters. Guess I was wrong.

See, this is why these threads are good; they allow us to learn things. :p
 

Davregis

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#13
I feel like Mario has the advantage ofc, but armor tends to be the deciding factor in matches like these
 
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