Charizard Matchup Discussion - Luigi

Astro !=

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 24, 2013
Messages
26
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Louisiana
#2
I don't play much charizard, the last one I played beat me actually (mostly my fault).

I always start with fireballs. You can actually challenge aerial fireballs somewhat with run up SH rock smash since you take the hit and either I:
get hit by rocks
airdodge and can't punish
FF down and shield the rocks (still can't punish bc of my low traction)
float away before tossing fireball (or wavebounce it). This is the only way I really come out on top, but that means don't rush in when Luigi is tossing fireballs while moving away from you.

Grounded fireballs are also sorta risky since you can punish with side B if you start it before the fireball comes out. Watch Luigi closely, and if he starts pulling his hands back then you can toss flair blitz and win (assuming you're inside fireball range). It's like sheik with bouncing fish, except charizard goes through the fireball.

You have an easier time than some edge guarding us bc of multi jumps, huge nair, occasional dair, etc.. IMO you should just go for nair since it'll kill anyway if you hit Luigi out of his DJ. One guy used up b armor to beat my DJ cyclone, so maybe that's a thing, but tbh nair is probably better.

Do NOT sit in shield. Literally the worst thing to do vs Luigi. Luigi can't approach well, but if you're in shield then you can't do anything to stop him from running in.

Rock smash breaks out of many of my strings. For example, I did d-throw - fair - upair - up-tilt and Zard armored thru the immediate nair with rock smash (not a big deal since nair is a combo ender anyway, but it avoided a juggle situation). Try it in situations where luigi has to reach to get his next hit.

That up throw killed super early. So annoying.

Jab beat a lot of my stuff. I can't talk on specifics, but jab kept ****ing me up. Also, Jab-Jab-Grab worked on me every time. I got grabbed through nair, airdodge gave me punishable lag, and DJ is super risky and starts an easy juggle. My next options to try were cyclone and well timed fair, but even if I can beat the grab Jab-Jab puts me in a horrible spot since I either have to read what you're going to do or DJ and risk tons of damage.



That being said, I still think it's Luigi's favor.

I have to go to class now, I'll try to write a bit on what I did as Luigi when I get back.

Real quick: Town and city is your best stage, imo. Personally, I hate TnC as Weegee bc even though I get early kills, so does everyone else. Your up throw gets super scary, and you have the platforms to save you from being juggled. Luigi pressure those platforms too well since he's so slow, while charizard can apply solid pressure since he's got so many jumps and a decent hitbox on fair. I suppose I could shield drop bair, but I'm not consistent with that tech yet and an accidental spot dodge would be a guaranteed hit confirm.

Battle field also sucked because the stage size messes with fireball camping, and charizard can easily camp the top platform. Dreamland is battle field with taller platforms (which is worse for Luigi, since fireball camping is harder and up smash doesn't hit thru the platform as well). Lylat was great for me, FD was great when I could apply pressure in the neutral, smash ville was decent, duck hunt was in my favor due to size and how hard it is to edge guard on that stage Delfino is your first choice if you can get grabs on command, Halberd lets you shark a bit since Luigi can't hit below ledge too well, castle siege isn't legal around here, and I think that's all for stages.

If something isn't clear let me know, I didn't reread this before posting.
 

EvilPinkamina

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 15, 2014
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171
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EvilPinkamina
#3
Luigi's favor. Luigi gets the combos against Zard. Don't let luigi approach with fireballs. Challenge with flamethrower and side b if they fireball too much. Don't die early and try to exploit rage later on. Challenge approaches with jab. Cross your fingers, but not the ones on your L and R buttons.
 
Joined
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N1ntendogam1ng
#4
Heavily in Luigi's favor. Not as bad as the Dedede or ZSS matchup, but we're only winning if we get hard reads or a gimp. He combos harder than Mario, he's harder to punish, and he has a super strong kill move. One note though, DO NOT use Flare Blitz! If he shields it, that's a free fireball lock. I suggest using Dragon Rush if customs are on (which they should always be)
 
Joined
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#7
Maybe I just haven't fought good enough luigis, but the MU seems like it's slightly in luigi's favor at worst. Luigi can do disgusting amounts of damage off of a single grab, which is his biggest advantage in the MU. Meanwhile, he has numerous options to be able to mash out of zard's few throw combos, however, it's not all bad for char.

Luigi has three main weaknesses in this MU:

1. He can be walled out. His moves are quick, but his ground and air speed are meh at best. He has short range and low traction, so he won't be running circles around us any time soon. His best (and only) option at mid-range is fireballs, which can be shut down by flamethrower.

2. Sheild push makes approaching luigi much less scary than you'd think. Perfectly spaced fairs on luigi's shield, for example, push luigi too far back for him to get the grab afterwards. This, plus his first problem can mean that luigi will have trouble getting in on zard, if we're willing to play patiently.

3. His recovery is limited and punishable. Flamethrower gimps are effective against luigi. Flamethrower stuffs his attempts to Side B and Up B back to the ledge. He might be able to pull out some shananigans with cyclone, but this can be punished with a spike if spaced/timed properly.

However, he DOES have obvious advantaes in this MU

1. He has a hard time getting in, but once he does get in, one grab can instantly net him 60%+. Not only can luigi wrack up damage quickly on zard, he has reliable kill setups out of grabs that can end our stocks early if we mess up. Playing this MU for zard is like walkin a tightrope, one little mistake and he can punish us dearly.

2. His moves have stupid priority. You have as much of a chance of challenging luigi's moves as you do marths.
We have to respect luigi's options and not try to play rushdown against him. Flamethrower, ftilt, and in some cases Fair are the best moves we have for challenging luigi's attacks.

3. Cyclone gimps.

This point is purely theoretical, since I've never been in this situation myself, but I've heard the bowser boards talking about this. Aparently cyclone gimps are a thing. It's not surprinsing considering the stupid amount of priority the move has. If possible, try not to recover low against luigi. The ending portion of fly does not have super armor, so a smart luigi can try to hit you out of your recovery with this. If possible, try not to waste your jumps when knocked offstage, you'll need them if put in this situation.

Overall, I'd say 4:6 in favor of luigi. It's a similar MU to MK in that he can do distusting amounts of damage if he gets an advantage, and can kill us early to boot, but has limited approach options, meaning that he can be walled out. Char should focus on playing hit and run in this MU. We wall luigi out while taking what hits we can, then use one of our many KO options to net the stock when the time comes.

:006:
 

Yonder

Smashboard's 1st Sole Survivor
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Skullicide
#8
I don't play much charizard, the last one I played beat me actually (mostly my fault).

I always start with fireballs. You can actually challenge aerial fireballs somewhat with run up SH rock smash since you take the hit and either I:
get hit by rocks
airdodge and can't punish
FF down and shield the rocks (still can't punish bc of my low traction)
float away before tossing fireball (or wavebounce it). This is the only way I really come out on top, but that means don't rush in when Luigi is tossing fireballs while moving away from you.

Grounded fireballs are also sorta risky since you can punish with side B if you start it before the fireball comes out. Watch Luigi closely, and if he starts pulling his hands back then you can toss flair blitz and win (assuming you're inside fireball range). It's like sheik with bouncing fish, except charizard goes through the fireball.

You have an easier time than some edge guarding us bc of multi jumps, huge nair, occasional dair, etc.. IMO you should just go for nair since it'll kill anyway if you hit Luigi out of his DJ. One guy used up b armor to beat my DJ cyclone, so maybe that's a thing, but tbh nair is probably better.

Do NOT sit in shield. Literally the worst thing to do vs Luigi. Luigi can't approach well, but if you're in shield then you can't do anything to stop him from running in.

Rock smash breaks out of many of my strings. For example, I did d-throw - fair - upair - up-tilt and Zard armored thru the immediate nair with rock smash (not a big deal since nair is a combo ender anyway, but it avoided a juggle situation). Try it in situations where luigi has to reach to get his next hit.

That up throw killed super early. So annoying.

Jab beat a lot of my stuff. I can't talk on specifics, but jab kept ****ing me up. Also, Jab-Jab-Grab worked on me every time. I got grabbed through nair, airdodge gave me punishable lag, and DJ is super risky and starts an easy juggle. My next options to try were cyclone and well timed fair, but even if I can beat the grab Jab-Jab puts me in a horrible spot since I either have to read what you're going to do or DJ and risk tons of damage.



That being said, I still think it's Luigi's favor.

I have to go to class now, I'll try to write a bit on what I did as Luigi when I get back.

Real quick: Town and city is your best stage, imo. Personally, I hate TnC as Weegee bc even though I get early kills, so does everyone else. Your up throw gets super scary, and you have the platforms to save you from being juggled. Luigi pressure those platforms too well since he's so slow, while charizard can apply solid pressure since he's got so many jumps and a decent hitbox on fair. I suppose I could shield drop bair, but I'm not consistent with that tech yet and an accidental spot dodge would be a guaranteed hit confirm.

Battle field also sucked because the stage size messes with fireball camping, and charizard can easily camp the top platform. Dreamland is battle field with taller platforms (which is worse for Luigi, since fireball camping is harder and up smash doesn't hit thru the platform as well). Lylat was great for me, FD was great when I could apply pressure in the neutral, smash ville was decent, duck hunt was in my favor due to size and how hard it is to edge guard on that stage Delfino is your first choice if you can get grabs on command, Halberd lets you shark a bit since Luigi can't hit below ledge too well, castle siege isn't legal around here, and I think that's all for stages.

If something isn't clear let me know, I didn't reread this before posting.
Mmm, basically most of this. I want to comment further but I don't have time right now. Some quick points are that Charizard's jab messing Luigi up big time is VERY true. That's Charizard best tool against Luigi. Abuse it. Luigi has nothing to answer to it really.

Charizard is also quite the bit faster than Luigi which helps.

Flamethrower is also really effective edgeguarding Luigi.

Obviously Battlefield for early up throw kills is Charizard's best bet. Luigi likes FD against zard quite a bit.

And also as said in the quoted post, sometimes Charizard can punish with flare blitz well if Luigi fireballs.

But...I hate this matchup. I always lose by a hair. Just a hit. Charizard also has superior range on his smash attacks, which is nice.

I'm gonna say 55:45 Luigi. At least Charizard does leagues better than DDD and Ganondorf in the heavies department and probably better than Bowser. [Bowser has tough guy armor for fireballs though which is huge, Charizard has jab.]
 

Charey

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Messages
190
#9
While Luigi's combos are good but if you DI up they should only get 25ish on a grab at low percent, you can jump out after the second aerial to avoid the regrab if you hold up the entire time. It's still not fun but this makes the match-up much more winnable.

You don't want to shield the fireballs when he is nearby because they are always going to try and grab you, I find that clanking them or landing between fireballs with SH flamethrower works best to keep you safe.

This match up is basically a war of attrition, you can't approach him easily but you can shut down his approaches with jab/d-tilt/flamethrower. You are going to need to play a very defensive game and wait for mistakes, your general goal in this matchup is to push his fireball wall to take stage control, this is one of the match-ups where stage control is everything.

If they use Green Missile to recover charge a F-smash to meet it if they miss the sweetspot. The active frames of F-smash are invincible so you don't have to worry about a trade, just watch out for the misfire when timing it.

Overall I would put it at about 55:45 in Luigi's favor, not favorable but still one which you can overcome. It is a match up that takes time to learn and takes a lot of patience in game to slow the pace down to where you can take the time to get in the small hits safely, Luigi will always win in a scramble.
 
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