Charizard Matchup Discussion - Kirby

t!MmY

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t1mmy_smash
#2
Both Kirby and Charizard are relatively unused in competitive play making this particular match-up rarely seen. I don't run into many Charizard players in tournaments, and the ones that use him generally are not high level players. Despite this, I figure I may as well give some input.

In general both Charizard and Kirby will want to close the distance and bring the fight up-close since neither character has a particularly strong long-distance game. Kirby will generally want to get in closer while Charizard can space a little bit farther out with longer-ranged pokes or possible Flamethrower damage. However, lower-skilled Charizard players will generally Flare Blitz at any time and any distance. ;)

Charizard's spacing isn't safe enough to keep Kirby out, and when Kirby gets in he can deal a good amount of damage with his combo game. Kirby's footsies against Charizard is safer in speed, but not in range, which means Kirby will try to get in close and poke at Charizard. Kirby will likely mix in a lot of Shield and Dodge with his pokes. The reason is because Charizard can eat right through Kirby's attacks such as with Rock Smash, Flamethrower, or brute force with F-smash. Kirby's pokes combined with his defenses work to bait something giving Kirby an opening to move in and attack.

Grabs are a big part of this match-up for both Charizard and Kirby. Charizard gets good damage in with his Throws in general, but mostly with D-throw combos. Since Kirby is so lightweight he can't afford to take many hits and Charizard's grab is a great way to beat out Shield and wrack up some damage. Grabbing is a great option for Kirby as well, and most of the time if Kirby has an opportunity to punish it will be with a Grab. Kirby will generally use F-throw to set up his combos at low to mid percents, so DI away from it.

Up-Throw is the usual go-to for a KO throw with Charizard, and while it's not nearly as strong of an option on Kirby's side of things Kirby can also go for U-throw KOs. Due to the weight differences between Charizard and Kirby as well as the fact that Charizard's U-throw is stronger, Charizard can get KO's with U-throw at much lower percents than Kirby can. Use platforms to your advantage and keep in mind how low the ceiling is on whatever stage you are playing on. For reference: Kirby's U-throw KO's Charizard at 154% (no Rage, no DI, Final Destination).

Most of this battle really comes down to making the best choice and not getting caught by a bait. Overall I feel like Kirby has the upper hand just because he has safer options and thus a stronger bait & punish game. Again, I'm not too adamant on this simply because of the lack of high level interaction these two characters have as of 1.1.3. I'd love to hear things from the Charizard perspective, as well as what other Kirby players think.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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#3
Kirby can combo Charizard to high heaven.

And that really hurts. Kirby can get tons of damage off of a combo.

But Charizard has some nice combos of his own and has the advantage of being able to take more hits then most characters. Though Kirby can kill earlier than expected. The puffball's got power.

Charizard can just power through Kirby's attacks and due to the puffballs poor range, tilts and other spacing tools are effective in my experience. Pretty sure Charizard has the tools to effectively wall out Kirby.

Overall, I agree with t!MmY t!MmY It's all one big bait game. Both character thrive on punishes, just on different ways. Kirby has an easier time punishing but has to work for tons of damage (combos), meanwhile, Charizard has to work for the punishes but does tons of damage on the simplest of things.

God Robert's Cousin God Robert's Cousin We had some great :4charizard: vs :4kirby: matches. What do you think?
 
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#4
That sounds about right. I suppose the biggest note is that unlike most other large characters, Charizard's Flare Blitz and Rock Smash offer close-range protection that makes it otherwise hard for Kirby to approach. Kirby's best set-ups come from DAir, FAir, and grabbing. Considering Kirby needs to get close and personal to even begin getting chip-damage in, those moves are great for mix-ups that can shut down an approaching Kirby. Just be warned of using them too often, however, as they're very punishable otherwise.

Also of note, avoid letting Kirby copy Flamethrower. I found myself able to use it to more frequently to success as Kirby than Charizard could simply due to the size difference and weight difference. Kirby can get out of it relatively quickly and attempt a DAir set-up. Charizard is just much more likely to receive all the bigger puffs of flame before it withers. Likewise in return, however, if a Kirby gets too Flamethrower-happy, you should know exactly the move to throw in.

When both characters begin to reach their dying-percentages (~70% for Kirby, ~110% for Charizard), it mainly comes down to who's the more patient player between the two. As a Charizard, expect to play more defensively overall in this match-up.
 
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#5
Kirby has some extreme gimping ability too, even with Charizard's average-below average recovery. He can inhale offstage and still recover, gimping Zard in the process, not to mention a nasty down air especially when combined with his many jumps. Charizard's one saving grace is his high kill power combined with Kirby's light weight. Also never Flare Blitz back to stage...it results in a rather embarrassing aerial hammer punish...


Well I'd say it's 55-45 in Kirby's favor. Anyone disagree?
 

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#6
Kirby has some extreme gimping ability too, even with Charizard's average-below average recovery. He can inhale offstage and still recover, gimping Zard in the process, not to mention a nasty down air especially when combined with his many jumps. Charizard's one saving grace is his high kill power combined with Kirby's light weight. Also never Flare Blitz back to stage...it results in a rather embarrassing aerial hammer punish...


Well I'd say it's 55-45 in Kirby's favor. Anyone disagree?
I disagree with the gimping. Kirby can't gimp Zard all that well without putting himself in a bad position. Down air is a thing, but fly just powers through it. Moreover, you can flare blitz above Kirby to prevent to hammer from hitting.
 
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#7
Fly has super armor, but only for a few frames, which can be easily exploited, not to mention if Zard lands on stage with Fly, Kirby's side smash will be there waiting, and it has a lot of power.
 

Swamp Sensei

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#8
Fly has super armor, but only for a few frames, which can be easily exploited, not to mention if Zard lands on stage with Fly, Kirby's side smash will be there waiting, and it has a lot of power.
That's why you got to play smart.

And not land on the edge if Kirby is waiting for him.

That's not really a Zard problem. That's just a basic Smash problem.
 
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