Charizard Matchup Discussion - King Dedede

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#3
Sorry, this is going to be stream of conscious and pretty disjointed- I'm a little tired and typing my thoughts as they come to me. So sorry if I'm not much help, just throwing out some ideas out there.

It's weird thinking about this match-up, because I main Dedede and I actually do play a bit of Zard from time to time. Even used him in a few tournament sets. However, I haven't actually played against a Charizard as Dedede, or against Dedede as Charizard.

I think, in a way, the recent throw buffs to Zard have acted as a small indirect nerf to him in this specific match-up. My main reasoning here is that Dedede is a fatty that refuses to die off the top, so your upthrow is worse at that than simply getting Dedede off stage for an edge-guard. But I'm probably wrong here.

I think more than any other character, he's gonna have trouble landing against Dedede in this match-up. I know smart players will mix-up their options, but I feel that one of Charizard's safer options, Rock Smash, is less useful because of Dedede's disjointed, multi-hitting uair. I think we might be able to keep hitting you through the armor frames, and if not we can eat at the rock.

Does Flare Blitz stop dead in its tracks on contact with Gordo? That could potentially create an issue when recovering. IIRC, Flamethrower deflects Gordo, giving you a relatively safe deflect option.

Charizard does have superior mobility to Dedede, and he's probably really easy for you guys to combo. Fair and Nair should have a frame advantage over Dedede's Bair, which is the move he generally tries to space with.

Actually I think Dragon Rush would be pretty nasty in this match-up. Dedede is a nice big smooshy target, I imagine that'll be your preferred custom in this match-up as it is in most of Zard's match-ups.

I'm kind of thinking Charizard wins the neutral but he might have a hard time actually killing Dedede. Conversely, I'm sure Dedede can juggle Charizard. But he can't land very safely against Charizard. Our best bet would be using inhale as a mix-up to try to catch you guys out of an attack, but utilt/usmash/up b most likely beats out inhale...like most moves. Those moves also give Charizard some defense against Dedede's other landing options.

IDK I'm starting to think Charizard might have a small advantage over Dedede, but he's also the sort of character that Dedede wants to be playing against because you're good combo food and we just have to smack you far enough down and away from the stage to stop you from recovering. I'm interested in seeing what Jimmy has to say about it.
 

MintyBreeze

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#4
Here are my initial thoughts (as a not Dedede main):
You can't let yourself get suckered into hitting away on his shield. D-Tilt and Shield Grab are good options out of shield against Charizard, however, his jab also has more range than ours and hits as quickly. Keep in mind, Dedede's jab range is very good! The first is longer ranged than our Jab 1 and Jab 2, and the second has about the range of our D-Tilt. Remember that the second hit has more range, and that both hits draw you in! The fact that he can also grab you and use D-Tilt in that case makes close range combat with Dedede very difficult. Also launches you up at an angle where he can follow-up with F-Air and U-Air. Don't try to challenge this because of the second hit. If you get launched off, I'd recommend grabbing the ledge instead of trying to challenge Dedede in the air. Note that Jab 1 and Jab 2 can get chained into almost any of his other normals on the ground, including a grab or a D-Smash if they feel threatened, so that sometimes not even your shield is safe. Be ready to spotdodge if necessary; If he seems needlessly close to you, in the range where your jab could punish him, it's likely he could be looking for this.

D-Tilt outranges us, if I recall. F-Tilt gives him a better pivoting option than we have in our F-Tilt, so be careful if you're chasing after Dedede. (Both our F-Tilts seem to have relatively the same range, his going a little farther and being quicker, but at least ours can be angled.) Dedede's only hitbox in F-Tilt is the hammer. I can't stress this enough, don't try to treat Dedede like you can outrange him like Charizard usually prefers to do! He's better able to keep us at mid-range than we can to him. On the ground, you should try to keep it safe and hold your shield up, and again, always be ready to spotdodge strong attacks like Smashes so you can punish him more efficiently. U-Tilt launches you up into the air and reaches in front of him, so be careful around that.

Now, while this may look like Dedede has the advantage in terms of normals, we need to also consider how fast the two are. Charizard has the advantage of speed in both the air and on the ground, by a large margin. Granted, you can't just dash into his hammer, but we could gain control of the stage a little better than him if we shield the gordo and respect it. Reflecting it is pointless as it's extremely obvious, and they'll sometimes even double reflect it. In terms of general attack speed, he also happens to win. D-Tilt is six frames I believe, F-Tilt is able to be used on a dime, Jab is a wonderful attack in Dedede's arsenal that keeps us away from grab range. A blessing that we happen to have is a normal dash attack, but I imagine we wouldn't get to use it much except on failed smash attacks or the Super Dedede Jump.

Dedede's pretty slow in the air, but his attacks are great and have a lot of range. B-Air and F-Air can cover diagonally above and below Dedede in each direction, with U-Air covering above him very well and acting as a kill move. D-Air can both serve as a spike and an on-stage killer. N-Air can be fastfalled for a quick landing, and easily stringed into D-Tilt as a fast landing option. N-Air can even quickly lead into a D-Smash if you don't react quickly. Look out for him fast falling his aerials in general; Their huge range makes it easier to do this with than a lot of other characters. He can even condition you to shield against falling attacks, You have to look out for B-Air. It can kill Charizard at 120% near the edge if you're not careful, and at 110% (or lower!) if you're on or past the ledge. The same goes for D-Smash, and Charizard dies from U-Smash at 120% on FD. Basically, you need to be extremely careful. Just be happy that our U-Smash is overall faster.

I doubt Dedede would want to challenge Flare Blitz or Fly off-stage, but with us not using those two moves, I believe he'd dominate us with his two extra jumps and longer range, where speed doesn't matter as much, at least, if we're getting edgeguarded. I don't, however, know how much mileage we could get out of edgeguarding him besides Flamethrower chip damage.

Then, there are the Gordos, which most definitely aren't useless... But I don't think they'd be very helpful against Charizard off-stage, unless you recover literally right next to the stage where Gordo easily can hit you. Fly allows him to recover from beneath the stage on some stages, and with Flare Blitz or Dragon Rush, to a lesser extent, he can recover horizontally. However, when on the ledge, an Up-angled one can trap you into a few options and let the Dedede better read what you're doing. Jump up? You could get hit by the Gordo. Stand-Up? Gordo. Wait there? The Dedede forces you to act... Again, shielding them is the best option. Sure, it can leave you open to a grab, but you can spotdodge those.

Overall... This match-up does seem to be in Dedede's favor, but not hopelessly so. While he outranges us, something that's hard to adjust to as Charizard, he has relatively few options when we happen to be below him, especially since anti-air is one of our strengths in the first place. U-Air, in particular, as it only hits above and behind itself? I could see it being a decent damage dealer and even a kill move at high percents. Add Flamethrower for spacing, N-Air to force an action from him, (F-Air can be airdodged) and our speed still allowing us to dodge fairly well, I think we can potentially manage a win from Dedede if we honestly do play with everything we have.
 
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#KingM

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#5
Then, there are the Gordos, which most definitely aren't useless... But I don't think they'd be very helpful against Charizard off-stage, unless you recover literally right next to the stage where Gordo easily can hit you. Fly allows him to recover from beneath the stage on some stages, and with Flare Blitz or Dragon Rush, to a lesser extent, he can recover horizontally. However, when on the ledge, an Up-angled one can trap you into a few options and let the Dedede better read what you're doing. Jump up? You could get hit by the Gordo. Stand-Up? Gordo. Wait there? The Dedede forces you to act... Again, shielding them is the best option. Sure, it can leave you open to a grab, but you can spotdodge those.
Sorry if I come off as a bit hostile, but I don't think you know Gordo's well enough. A good DDD player won't just use Gordo off-stage, but on-stage as well. And it's not primarily used as a weapon, but as a pressure tool instead, forcing Charizard to make a option that DDD can read, and although you did mention this, I don't think you took it as seriously, because it's the driving force in DDD's play style. They'd be VERY helpful against Charizard, seeing as how he doesn't have any projectiles.

But other then that, great job on explaining this MU. I think everything else is perfect.
 

Steeler

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#6
Fireball Cannon is a very long range projectile that hits Gordos back and severely limits movement. It's uniquely good against Dedede since he has very poor horizontal movement and relies on Gordos to control space.
 

MintyBreeze

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#7
Well, I knew that Gordo allows Dedede to force an enemy into predictable situations, (because I watched a guide >-<) but I didn't think to mention it. Either way, it adds an extra tool to keep Dedede less predictable and us moreso if we aren't careful.
 

Thinktron

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#8
As a D3 main i feel as though i should give my personally impression.
I personally found this match-up a piece of cake before Charizards improved grab game, but now not so much.
To start zard is overall much faster on the ground and his dash animation is pretty low to the ground, meaning more often than not, a Gordo will just bounce over him, i know this is a small detail but to goes along way. also because D3 is.. lets say a little obese, he is prone to Zards new grab combo's and his powerful back air, Oh and if a D3 misses an attack its a free
Flare Blitz in many situations.

Whether or not D3 still has the advantage is up for debate, i currently am slowly dropping D3 in favor of improving my other characters Dr. Mario and Wario. so I dont have to much to say other than what i said already, other than D3 of course having a better recovery and slightly more range overall

i don't know who has advantage but its definitely close to even.
 
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Saturn_

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#9
Upthrow combos into fair at 0% against DeDeDe. You can do upthrow combos on characters like D3 and Bowser but I'm still experimenting, it's something to lab if you're trying to improve your Zard matchup with DeDeDe.
 

MintyBreeze

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#10
Wait, wait, wait, hold the phone, a free Flare Blitz? What moves of Dedede's have that much endlag? Huh... Either way, do you all think Rock Hurl would allow us to move out of Dedede's jab or possibly avoid D-Tilt? Seeing as I'm pretty sure D-Tilt has six frames, Rock Smash has frame 5 superarmor... It could potentially let us out of two moves, right?
 

Thinktron

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#11
cant find a phone to hold. :(
A dodged forward SMASH and a cancelled Super D3 jump will provide you a free punish, if a D3 activates a down smash and they miss only use it if your close enough though. I was referring to using Flare Blitz while they attack so that it will hit then during their end lag, ill admit i should of been more clear about it since timing is key.

when it comes to D3's down tilt rock smash alone will knock the D3 away before his Hitbox can inflict damage, but since rock smash is slower than down tilt its not safe at all, I'm not good with customs, partly because i don't even have that many. But i think sinking skull would be a better choice as it bury's opponents, and what do ya know another free flare blitz.
 

Jatayu

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#12
I like to believe I have enough experience with both these characters to give some decent information.

Wait, wait, wait, hold the phone, a free Flare Blitz? What moves of Dedede's have that much endlag? Huh... Either way, do you all think Rock Hurl would allow us to move out of Dedede's jab or possibly avoid D-Tilt? Seeing as I'm pretty sure D-Tilt has six frames, Rock Smash has frame 5 superarmor... It could potentially let us out of two moves, right?
Considering the fact Rock Hurl has frame 1 super armor and the transition between jab1 and jab2 is slow enough to be interrupted, yes. You can use rock hurl (maybe rock smash?)to deal with that. Although, Dedede can also jab1>jab2>grab, but that can also be escaped by just jumping away. Needless to say, Dedede has garbage frame data.

As far as a free flare blitz... I would go for a grab instead. He could be talking using Up-B as an option to get-up on a ledge or our smash attacks where our fastest option would be shield after all that endlag. Maybe I'm just paranoid that Dedede will shield and I get punished horribly.

Now gordos can be a pain while recovering with side-B. Dragon rush loses to gordo while you suffer the huge endlag of flare blitz. Just recover high with either side-B since our flippers aren't the best when it comes to running. You could also use Fly's super armor and recover low, but then you'll have to deal with our gordo edge trap.

As far as customs are concerned, Dedede will probably use Taste Test (A command grab with less endlag than regular inhale), default gordo, default Up-B, and we never use Jet Hammer. I run armored jet hammer, but there are so many better ways to punish.

Charizard should run Fireball Cannon to deal safe damage in neutral, beat gordo (although I would advise against throwing out gordos in neutral but hey, a safe way to reflect it is always nice), and harass Dedede while he slowly but surely makes him way back onto the stage. For side-B, I would run Dragon Rush for the no damage penalty and it's safety (although DDD's f-tilt can beat it).
Rock Hurl's frame 1 super armor can be used to abused DDD's poor frame data. And Up-B is personal preference.

Take DDD to battlefield/miiverse since I don't believe he gains anything from the stage layout, beside some bouncing gordo shenanigans while you poke him with up-tilts and smashes. Duck Hunt for the quick tree kill and the ducks and dog will occasionally mess with gordos. And Delfino to mess with gordos and quick up-throw kills during some transformations.

Respect DDD's space and know his range. I believe flamethrower/fireball cannon is the only thing that has more range than his f-tilt. He'll throw out gordos to restrict where you land and force you to make mistakes that he can easily capitalize on. I'm not entirely sure what to rate this match-up considering the fact that both these characters can make quite the comeback.
 
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cwjakesteel

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#13
I think it's pretty even. DDD is definitely better offstage than Charizard is.

Also I think it would be extremely easy for DDD to edge Chari-boy with gordo + down smash.

I think Charizoy has the edge on the ground though, but a DDD player won't just give him the room just because Chari's faster.

I can see Chari's rock smash having potential. DDD's my main but I have tried to bring my Chari up to his level. I've never pitted the two against each other so I don't have any field data.
 

Saturn_

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#14
Upthrow-fair true combos DeDeDe at 0% and deals 22%. Upthrow-jump-fair true combos DeDeDe at 22%. I have tested this against level 3 computers fwiw.
 

cwjakesteel

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#15
Upthrow-fair true combos DeDeDe at 0% and deals 22%. Upthrow-jump-fair true combos DeDeDe at 22%. I have tested this against level 3 computers fwiw.
grab > pummel > dthrow > upB should do the same, but I think that hardly counts as an advantage.
 

Axel311

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#16
I've always found this matchup to be slightly in Dedede's favor simple due to the fact that Zard can't threaten D3 at range. Zard is forced to approach, so this fight happens on Dedede's terms. Dedede does not have to approach whatsoever. Dedede gets to play the passive reactive game where he really shines. How does Zard get in? What can Zard do against a campy Dedede?

We're basically talking about a character that struggles at getting camped being forced to approach a character like Dedede that has a very good camping game. I think this has to be in Dedede's favor because of that. I don't think Charizard has many good approach options, let me know if I'm wrong.

I've never had much trouble zoning Zard out with a combination of gordo wall, Ftilt and aerials. Flame dash is a nuisance, but I feel like Zard really has to make more reads than Dedede does to win here. I'm thinking this is something like 60:40 in Dedede's favor. Then again, I'm not the most experienced with playing as Zard so take that with a grain of salt.

I can tell you however that I have an easier time against this character than 90% of the rest of the cast while playing as Dedede. This is definitely one of Dedede's few favorable matchups.
 
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cwjakesteel

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#17
I'm leaning towards 55:45 rather than 60:40. I think DDD has ever so slightly the edge over Charizard because his moves are all so laggy while DDD has a bunch of near zero lag moves, and a command grab.

Charizard's jabs are definitely much better than DDD's even though they are shorter. Alternatively, I'm inclined to say that because charizard has to be closer, it's more predicable since DDD has both jab and side-tilt to use, although side tilt is really laggy and won't get anyone who isn't busy doing something.

Actually, now that I mention that, I think 55:45 up towards 60:40 simply because Charizard is that more vulnerable to Gordo because Chariz's moves are so laggy.
 

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#18
While I'm a :4dedede: at heart, I absolutely love :4charizard:, might even call him a secondary. The matchup is very rare, but I have played Zards in several Customs tournaments (where Zard shines most), and have some valuable thoughts.

There's a lot of good stuff above, and some junk too (Zard's throw changes were a nerf? lol). This matchup is fascinating, frustrating, and such a toss-up in so many situations.

Both WANT to be close, but not too close. Both want to be a certain distance far away, but not too far. Zard can really stuff people out with Flamethrower/Jabs/Nair. But so can D3.
Both are fantastic at getting back to the stage, and very difficult to edgeguard.
Both have very specific %s where they threaten most. D3 has tons of neigh-safe kill setups below 120%, but struggles to get a safe kill above that. Zard's the opposite: he can't combo well at mid-high %s, but will murder D3 above 120%.

Zard has a 4-frame disjointed jab. D3s drool for a close-range fast move like that.
Yet with all his jumps and great fastfall speed, D3 can hardcore bait out several of Zard's options (Rock Smash, Flamethrower, etc). As much of this matchup comes down to baits and punishing, here's where I think D3 slightly pulls ahead (as Zard moves like molasses in the air). Both characters leave huge openings with their kill moves, and both can bait that out with their jumps - but only D3 can quickly kill from the air.

Custom moves: Dragon Rush is great, but easily punished if spammed. Most Zard players still aren't quite used to it, but once this is used wisely it's a great option. Didn't personally find any trouble with the Fireball custom; Flamethrower is just so good for so many things (spacing opponents out, edgeguarding, etc).

So if there's an advantage, it might be towards the King. But D3 relies a lot on shield - and with the Zard Uthrow kill/Dthrow combo game, that advantage got smaller. A really fun match.

Also, @ JimmyTheCaterpillar JimmyTheCaterpillar I'm very interested to read your thoughts on this as well.
 
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#21
Oh ok, well I really think Dedede wins this one. Based on personal experience, I always have trouble with Dedede. His side smash is surprisingly difficult/near impossible to punish, and his tilts are pretty obnoxious. Hardest part about the matchup is definitely the Gordos, our only quick attacks have awkward or small hitboxes, the only safe way to return Gordos is forward air. IMO this matchup is 60:40 at best unless Charizard gets buffed further or Dedede gets nerfed in the next update. Similar to the ZSS or Shiek matchup, I'd suggest going with another character if you know someone is going to use them.
 
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EvilPinkamina

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#22
Does DDD's side smash have super armor or somethin? Theoretically you could just jab him out of it if it didn't. Jab also knocks back gordos I thought too, as well as 2 or 3 hits of flamethrower and maybe sweetspot nair?
 

Axel311

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#23
Does DDD's side smash have super armor or somethin? Theoretically you could just jab him out of it if it didn't. Jab also knocks back gordos I thought too, as well as 2 or 3 hits of flamethrower and maybe sweetspot nair?
No, Dedede Fsmash does not have super armor. You can hit him out of it although it can be risky to do so. Fsmash really isn't a significant factor in this matchup though. Good Dedede's don't use Fsmash but maybe 1-2 times per set as a mixup because it comes out super slow. It tends to not be very practical. I'm pretty sure flamethrower does not reflect gordo but not 100% sure someone else will have to confirm.
 
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Lyserdon

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#24
No, Dedede Fsmash does not have super armor. You can hit him out of it although it can be risky to do so. Fsmash really isn't a significant factor in this matchup though. Good Dedede's don't use Fsmash but maybe 1-2 times per set as a mixup because it comes out super slow. It tends to not be very practical. I'm pretty sure flamethrower does not reflect gordo but not 100% sure someone else will have to confirm.
Just did some testing in training mode. Pretty much all of Zard's moves reflect gordo including, but not limited to: Jab, all tilts, usmash, fair, bair (sweet or sour), nair (sweet or sour), dair, Fly, flare blitz, and the first hit of Rock Smash. I'm guessing uair and the other smashes work too.

Regarding Flamethrower, only the inner part of the flame will reflect it, starting about halfway in on a fully charged Flamethrower. A fully depleted Flamethrower can even reflect gordo, but as you can imagine it's neither safe nor reliable.

I would say that for my money the best way to deal with gordo is ftilt, fair, or jab, with the more major situational/mixup ones being dtilt, usmash, nair, or bair.

I should note that I tested in training mode alone on 3DS, so I had to rely on the CPU, who helpfully threw plenty of gordos, but threw 99% of them in the shortest arc possible. It made testing easier, but someone should probably confirm that all that works with the faster/longer range gordos.
 

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#25
Anything that does >2% damage reflects Gordo, no matter on the kind of Gordo throw. Meaning a fresh Flamethrower will indeed reflect right around the middle - and it's fine to use it in a short burst to reflect. Personally I use Fair as Charizard to reflect Gordos - but do try not to play the matchup at far range. Charizard can really pressure D3 around Flamethrower to Jab range - want to try and stay there.
 
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#26
As someone who's been sparring with Tortilla Noggin Tortilla Noggin 's great D3 with my Zard, yes, Flamethrower can reflect the Gordos. It's not the best decision to do so. By the time Zard throws his head back to release Flamethrower, the Gordo would have already smacked you. If I go to spar with TN again I'll stick to Fair, which is one of Zard's quickest moves and can catch Gordos in the air. I play on a New 3DS XL, so I can jump backwards and still Fair pretty easily, I might try that.

Flamethrower can reflect Gordos but it's hard to hit Gordos up close with Flamethrower because the Gordo will usually reach you before the move can be executed. I'd go with Fair. If a Grodo happens to hit your Rock Smash you will send that sucker flying like a bullet diagonally in the other direction.

During said sparing, a couple of times I accidentally Flare Blitz'd into a Gordo and hit the enemy D3 with said Gordo. It's not a good trade. It's funny to watch but that's about it. Again, in said sparing, I managed to get hit by a Gordo 3 times, more than Tortilla ever seen before. Though this could only happen on Little Mac's stage as far as I'm aware.

But yeah. Gordos aren't Zard's only problem with D3. The hammer in general will always out range you, meaning you have a very narrow space to work in. Too close and you get slapped with a hammer. Too far and you have raining Gordos. There's a sweetspot to poke with Flamethrower and wait for an opening to Jab at or grab D3. For both sides, it's about patience and getting reads. I'd say it's close to even and in D3's favor. DO NOT BE ABOVE DEDEDE if you can help it. I found myself powerless against D3's Uair. Best place for the Fire/Flying type is, ironically, under Dedede. Fly works wonders against him, being such a big target. There is a point in Dedede's Up special where he does not have super armor and won't hurt you, roughly reaching the top of the jump. That is ample punish opportunity with a well placed Uair or Fly. And all the D3's I seen love to spam the hell out of his move as they think it lacks drawbacks (except Tortilla, who pointed these weaknesses out to me).
 

Lyserdon

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#27
As someone who's been sparring with Tortilla Noggin Tortilla Noggin 's great D3 with my Zard, yes, Flamethrower can reflect the Gordos. It's not the best decision to do so. By the time Zard throws his head back to release Flamethrower, the Gordo would have already smacked you. If I go to spar with TN again I'll stick to Fair, which is one of Zard's quickest moves and can catch Gordos in the air. I play on a New 3DS XL, so I can jump backwards and still Fair pretty easily, I might try that.

Flamethrower can reflect Gordos but it's hard to hit Gordos up close with Flamethrower because the Gordo will usually reach you before the move can be executed. I'd go with Fair. If a Grodo happens to hit your Rock Smash you will send that sucker flying like a bullet diagonally in the other direction.

During said sparing, a couple of times I accidentally Flare Blitz'd into a Gordo and hit the enemy D3 with said Gordo. It's not a good trade. It's funny to watch but that's about it. Again, in said sparing, I managed to get hit by a Gordo 3 times, more than Tortilla ever seen before. Though this could only happen on Little Mac's stage as far as I'm aware.

But yeah. Gordos aren't Zard's only problem with D3. The hammer in general will always out range you, meaning you have a very narrow space to work in. Too close and you get slapped with a hammer. Too far and you have raining Gordos. There's a sweetspot to poke with Flamethrower and wait for an opening to Jab at or grab D3. For both sides, it's about patience and getting reads. I'd say it's close to even and in D3's favor. DO NOT BE ABOVE DEDEDE if you can help it. I found myself powerless against D3's Uair. Best place for the Fire/Flying type is, ironically, under Dedede. Fly works wonders against him, being such a big target. There is a point in Dedede's Up special where he does not have super armor and won't hurt you, roughly reaching the top of the jump. That is ample punish opportunity with a well placed Uair or Fly. And all the D3's I seen love to spam the hell out of his move as they think it lacks drawbacks (except Tortilla, who pointed these weaknesses out to me).
I have a lot of trouble getting in on D3, but during the 8 million frames of his up B I always wondered if there was a punish opportunity before he hits the ground Sounds like a good way to get an early stock if he recovers high.
 

Tortilla Noggin

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#28
I saw that I got tagged, so I waddled on over here. :p

As someone who's been sparring with Tortilla Noggin Tortilla Noggin 's great D3 with my Zard, yes, Flamethrower can reflect the Gordos.
Great? Heheh, again, thanks very much for that. :)

Again, in said sparing, I managed to get hit by a Gordo 3 times, more than Tortilla ever seen before. Though this could only happen on Little Mac's stage as far as I'm aware.
I've thought about this some more since, and I wonder if getting hit by the same Gordo that many times in one spin might also have something to do with Charizard's shape and proportions. As noted, I've never seen that occur with any other opponent.

I don't know if it could happen on another stage, though it did sort of clip the ropes in the Boxing Ring, didn't it? I wonder if that's part of what netted the extra hit? (Usually the maximum a Gordo will hit an opponent during a spin is twice.)

It's a bit of a mystery.

That is ample punish opportunity with a well placed Uair or Fly. And all the D3's I seen love to spam the hell out of his move as they think it lacks drawbacks (except Tortilla, who pointed these weaknesses out to me).
All credit to my Dedede Amiibo, Dededebot, for that info. I initially learned it from him when I accidentally flubbed an input and hit him with an up-air and KO'ed him during him pulling off a Super Dedede Jump when I was merely trying to use the same move myself to Super Armour through it. :laugh:

I have a lot of trouble getting in on D3, but during the 8 million frames of his up B I always wondered if there was a punish opportunity before he hits the ground Sounds like a good way to get an early stock if he recovers high.
Finding out when to hit from below during a Super Dedede Jump takes a bit of practice - as I said to dangeraaron10 dangeraaron10 when we fought, I know this on instinct and not on frame-data, so I couldn't tell you exactly when.

The ascent has Super Armour. Any time after that, he can be hit from the sides or from above (though hitting from above during the descent is probably not easy for most, since he's travelling downwards at quite a speed then - I only know this myself from dropping Gordos from on high against other Dedede players). As mentioned above, there's a point during the descent where Dedede can meteor-smash during that move, but after that window's over, you can hit with a well-timed attack that can launch upwards (for Dedede himself, that's his own up-air, for Charizard I'd wager that that option is up-special - as long as it has half-decent launching power, it should work, as far as I know). Once you know the timing, there's little danger of being hit, in my experience.

I doubt Dedede would want to challenge Flare Blitz or Fly off-stage, but with us not using those two moves, I believe he'd dominate us with his two extra jumps and longer range
I just want to say, I habitually challenge Flare Blitz both on and off stage (I've learned to be wary of Fly, though I'll make use of the extra height gained if I do get hit by it :laugh:). An up-tilted Gordo acts as a good barrier on the ground or in the air, and effectively nets Dedede some free damage, as Charizard will bounce right off of it, with Flare Blitz having done damage as well (as dangeraaron10 dangeraaron10 notes, it's not a good trade).
 
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charizardbro

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#30
This is my least favorite MU right after ZSS.

Fair is a frame 8 move. It might be a little easier to use because it has some pretty long range but jab is quicker and lets you rush down Dedede after reflecting gordo. It's just hard to time on the short range gordos.

I think we lose neutral to Dedede if he spaces well. Our goal should be to trap him at the ledge when we have the advantage because we won't be able to get it back very reliably.

Dedede has a really good combo game on us with Dthrow (which works for sooo long too) and Jab 2 -> grab is cake against a character without high air jumps or a quick aerial. Dedede can get out of our Jab 2 nonsense with nair sometimes so it doesn't exactly go both ways. Dedede's smash attacks also have a deceptively low amount of endlag so when you go for a punish, watch out for spot dodges and rolls. I think we generally lose advantage but we have an easier time killing with Dthrow setups and Uthrow though.

Dedede traps us at the ledge very well but ledge trump bair is a pretty real thing for us in the MU so it goes both ways to an extent. Still favors Dedede though.

Overall this is easily 60/40 in favor of Dedede if he just doesn't give up free shield grabs. Possibly 65-35 if we get bodied at the ledge. Hold on to stocks. Get early kills (super secret Dthrow -> Flare Blitz if you get desperate).
 

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#32
Smooth Criminal Smooth Criminal

You got any thoughts about this matchup?

I like to think this fight is one game of who can bait and punish the opponent better.
 

Smooth Criminal

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#33
Honestly, I haven't faced off against any really solid 'Zards offline, so I only have netplay to go off of. If you want my opinion, though, I think 'Zard does ok in this MU. I don't think he loses neutral quite as hard as what C charizardbro says, but pretty much everything else he's mentioned about the disadvantage is pretty spot-on. 'Zard is one of the few characters that D3's jank can abuse the hell out of. Just be careful.

If you're going to challenge D3 at his optimal range (max range of his normals, in other words), don't throw **** out unnecessarily. Try to bait out his attacks and then counterattack; your character is a helluva lot faster than ya'll think. 'Zard has a couple of good normals to tag him with (jab mixups, d-tilt, etc.) that'll set D3 up for some hurt---he's also a big body like you are and, as long as you're careful, you can make every hit count. And don't be fooled by D3's "short recovery" on some of his moves---it's an illusion, for the most part. Dtilt and Jabs have the lowest recovery of his grounded normals; if he throws out anything else willy-nilly, he's probably gonna get punished.

I should say something about Inhale here, too. If D3 is dumb enough to try and start something out of neutral with this move, just mash something, whatever you think is most effective in the situation. You're gonna either hit him, or if you hit jump, you're gonna fly over him, either way leaving him in a punishable recovery state. Worry if he opts to catch you trying something out of neutral, though. A favorite tactic of a lot of D3's that I've seen is whiff punishing attacks with Inhale when they're right at that range.

As for the shortened Gordos at short to mid-range, while it's a very real threat to get tagged by the projectile, do not fall for the gimmick of Gordo mixups. Keep focused on what Dedede's doing, and then react. On-stage, sometimes it's better to not engage the situation at all; just roll back, spotdodge, do whatever you need to do until the projectile leaves play (this is roughly 5 seconds real time, possibly a little more), and/or when D3 overextends for the follow-up. Gordo mixups when he's edgeguarding you are a mite bit trickier; however, ledge invincibility is your friend here, as well as meaty attacks from the ledge that hamper D3 from committing to the effort (nair, fair, even Fly work). Just don't regrab the ledge and/or lose your invincibility here. I can't stress this enough. You will pay for it dearly. Get back on the stage asap.

Off-stage edgeguarding? Get to the edge asap. Literally the best advice I can give you here. You stand a better chance at it than most characters thanks to multiple jumps, Flare Blitz, and Fly. You don't want D3 floating out there and tagging you for the gimp, because he's one of the few characters in the game that can do that very well (it's one of his greatest strengths). In a reverse situation, where you're edgeguarding him, I suggest tagging errant D3s that don't aim to autosnap to the edge with Super D3 Jump with dair, preferably after the frames where their super armor's gone. Beyond that? Exploit the fact that he has worse get-up options than you at the ledge, and just wait patiently for your chance to keep him corralled there.

Smooth Criminal
 
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kendikong

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#34
I have immense difficulty dealing with Gordos in general. Most of zards attacks dont work on them most of the time or at least ends in an unfavorable trade. The best move i can use is jab, but half the time i miss the timing or it just bounces over my attack and hits me.
 

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#35
I have immense difficulty dealing with Gordos in general. Most of zards attacks dont work on them most of the time or at least ends in an unfavorable trade. The best move i can use is jab, but half the time i miss the timing or it just bounces over my attack and hits me.
The only thing I can think of is you're just spacing it wrong, or just playing scared. Literally every single move of Charizard's will reflect the Gordo. Standout moves off the top of my head: Fair (big disjointed hitbox), Nair (hitbox all around you), Flamethrower (when fresh it will reflect right away).

Otherwise, just don't play scared. Honestly a nice powershield/dodge through are valid ways to deal with Gordos; it's really not that great of a move - bait it out when close, then punish the huge endlag.
 

kendikong

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#37
The only thing I can think of is you're just spacing it wrong, or just playing scared. Literally every single move of Charizard's will reflect the Gordo. Standout moves off the top of my head: Fair (big disjointed hitbox), Nair (hitbox all around you), Flamethrower (when fresh it will reflect right away).

Otherwise, just don't play scared. Honestly a nice powershield/dodge through are valid ways to deal with Gordos; it's really not that great of a move - bait it out when close, then punish the huge endlag.
Trust me, I play aggressive against dededes. I try to hit back the gordos almost every time. Nair and flamethrower are most definitely not good options against gordos. They have to be timed perfectly. (At least with online input lag. Im sure offline, gordos wouldnt be too difficult to handle offline). Ill try using fair and rock smash more often though.

When you play against a really high level Dedede who can perfectly space gordos and use them to cover multiple options on stage and off stage, they are defnitely not something to underestimate. I consider myself very high level with zard, maybe you guys have not fought an amazing dedede player yet?
 
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Soul Train

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#38
Trust me, I play aggressive against dededes. I try to hit back the gordos almost every time. Nair and flamethrower are most definitely not good options against gordos. They have to be timed perfectly. (At least with online input lag. Im sure offline, gordos wouldnt be too difficult to handle offline). Ill try using fair and rock smash more often though.

When you play against a really high level Dedede who can perfectly space gordos and use them to cover multiple options on stage and off stage, they are defnitely not something to underestimate. I consider myself very high level with zard, maybe you guys have not fought an amazing dedede player yet?
Correction: I'm not saying to play aggressive. Just not scared. D3 loses hard to reactive play - everything he does is punishable. Walk just outside the range of his Ftilt, then wait, shield, punish. Seriously go pick Sonic if you really want easy mode.

Flamethrower and NAir work just fine if you understand where the hitboxes are (end of the tail on Nair, Flamethrower mostly at the end and middle). Really, reflecting Gordo isn't always your best answer anyways, don't think you always have to.

And to be clear: we from the D3 boards have/are the best D3 players in...well, the world (it's great, I just met some peeps from Italy, others from Brazil!). So yes, we have played amazing D3s, we know his stuff. By no means am I the best. But I do know the character very well :)
 

Smooth Criminal

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#39
Ditto. I'm one of the better D3s in my region. I think I know my stuff about the character. I think my post covered some of the dos and don'ts pretty well, although I did admit to being constrained to netplay mainly for 'Zard. There's just no strong player of the character around here.

I'd definitely vouch for Soul Train Soul Train in a heartbeat, too.

Smooth Criminal
 
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