Charizard Matchup Discussion - Ike

Mightyno.M

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Mickeyx
#2
Eh I like ike I guess but Roys my boy

Marth is elegance

All I can really give is that I believe fly beats counter and quick draw though testing will be needed

I also believe up close oos up b isn't as risky in Ike's jab and tilts

Finally don't challenge his moves with flareblitz unless you want to be in the next ike compilation video
 
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OgnarPliskin
#3
Ike has the advantage for several reasons:

1) Charizard's most powerful counterattack - Flare Bitz - can not only be Counter-killed by Ike. But using it as a recovery option can leave you highly susceptible to a partially-charged Eruption, which can kill Charizard around the 85% mark.
2) Fly can leave Charizard susceptible to Eruption as well, especially if you go to the lowest point of recovery.
3) Overall, Ike still out-ranges Charizard.

Charizard's best weapons, regardless, are Fair and Bair. They're both highly ranged and enough to counter any of Ike's moves besides Fair and Bair. In those cases, they will actually beat his moves out if you're close enough, and Charizard's Bair has killing power to boot.

Best stages to counterpick an Ike are Dream Land, Battlefield, Town and City, and Duck Hunt. You have the Uthrow kill for less kill % if you can manage it. Your grab range is also sick, especially in comparison to Ike's. Rock Smash and Flamethrower are good "respect" moves for an Ike getting in too close with offense. We're forced to play defense and bait your approaches with Nair.
 

charizardbro

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#4
So I have pretty limited MU experience on this one which is why I wanted to talk about it. I haven't had the chance to really sort out the MU for myself through experience so I hope some of you can help me out.

Neutral

Neutral feels really hard to tackle because you will get beat with disjointed moves in the air most of the time and the same is liable to happen on the ground. Since Ike got buffs now, he can actually set up great follow-ups out of confirmed aerials, Dtilt, and grab. Flamethrower is nice as it usually is against an opponent without their own projectiles but if Ike reads this and hops the flames, you will eat a substantial punish and be forced into an edgeguard situation. I don't think Ike approaches so quickly that he lends himself to dashing into flames either. Our only saving grace in neutral is that we don't care at all about his grabs at high percents. I'm pretty sure he does not have a kill combo out of Uthrow for us and the combination of his slow dash speed and his other throws' low horizontal knockback prevent him from setting up good edge guard situations off of grabs to a notable extent.

Offense

We have pretty nice low percent combo options but, again, nothing crazy. Retreating Fair is an option if you can catch Ike's own slow aerial approach before he gets the full reach of the sword out. Nair is pretty much useless except for some utility in crossing up Ike's shield and covering getup options at the ledge (probably not double jump Fair though). Rock smash seems to be what would make or break this matchup to me though. Ike is a big, slow target so if his moves connect with you, chances are he is staying in range of Rock Smash until it gets out its hitbox (unlike, say, Falcon). However, if Ike baits it you might just end up taking a Usmash to the grill. Uthrow is Uthrow but Ike is a bit heavier. Edge guarding is really risky with Ike's recovery but Flamethrower should be your go to option for that in the MU. Dtilt has to be used very carefully in this MU because of Ike's disjointed options.

Defense

Ike also has good low percent combo options both out of grabs and various other hit confirms like Dtilt. Ike can take a stock with just about anything except a grab or jab at kill percent so don't underestimate those tilts or dash attacks. Utilt, Uair, Bair and dash attack are the ones that I seem to see people, especially heavy mains, get surprised by the most. Those moves are no joke. Don't get hit as Ike recovers too. Ike just has to avoid shield grabs and Flamethrower in this MU, really. Ike edge guards us reasonably well but he completely gives away stage control if be goes offstage while we recover high with flare blitz. Ike also has nice jabs to prevent you from punishing well-spaced aerials and tilts on shield.

Personal thoughts

I feel like this is one of the MUs where we don't really have a good low risk option from neutral and we also have a harder time killing, even with rage. We have to read/bait the opponent's individual approaches much more than we can throw out safe hitboxes and combo starters in hopes that stuff just works. Ike has options to cover our approaches other than shield without grabbing. He is in the position of being able to toss out safe hitboxes, as long as he keeps an eye out for flamethrower.

The only time I've been able to beat a post-patch Ike is when they botched their aerial spacing and let me shield grab/Flamethrower them all day. Otherwise, I've been finding myself getting rekt pretty hard.
 
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TheNiddo
#5
Ike has the advantage for several reasons:

1) Charizard's most powerful counterattack - Flare Bitz - can not only be Counter-killed by Ike. But using it as a recovery option can leave you highly susceptible to a partially-charged Eruption, which can kill Charizard around the 85% mark.
2) Fly can leave Charizard susceptible to Eruption as well, especially if you go to the lowest point of recovery.
3) Overall, Ike still out-ranges Charizard.

Charizard's best weapons, regardless, are Fair and Bair. They're both highly ranged and enough to counter any of Ike's moves besides Fair and Bair. In those cases, they will actually beat his moves out if you're close enough, and Charizard's Bair has killing power to boot.

Best stages to counterpick an Ike are Dream Land, Battlefield, Town and City, and Duck Hunt. You have the Uthrow kill for less kill % if you can manage it. Your grab range is also sick, especially in comparison to Ike's. Rock Smash and Flamethrower are good "respect" moves for an Ike getting in too close with offense. We're forced to play defense and bait your approaches with Nair.
Dream Land is Ike's best stage. Why on earth would you tell a board to CP us there? We want characters to take us there. We're one of the characters the least interrupted by the wind, and the higher platform heights help us while hurting a lot of other characters.

@ C charizardbro

Ike's dash speed ain't bad. Bthrow and Fthrow are both actually pretty great for setting up edgeguarding situations because they have like almost no vertical aspect and are mainly horizontal. Uthrow to aerials at kill percents I'd have to check, but generally speaking the heavier and/or faster the character falls the longer we can combo them. Uthrow to Fair near the edge at a minimum is probably linking at kill percents.

Ike's aerial approach isn't slow. As seen here: http://smashboards.com/threads/smas...s-and-values-now-with-raw-real-values.383217/ Same as ROB and Bowser Jr.

Everything else seems fairly accurate. Ike wins the MU, I don't have any idea on a ratio though.
 

charizardbro

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#6
@ Nidtendofreak Nidtendofreak

Dream Land is a lot better for Charizard than it is for Ike. Ike can't trap us on platforms at DL but he can at Battlefield.

I will say that Battlefield is definitely a bad counterpick though. Zard can't land without Rock Smash since Nair won't over landings well enough and the platforms are way too close to drop and shield before Ike can get there. At DL, we generally have enough space to do that.

Compared to Zard's dash speed, Ike's is pretty bad (34th-39th compared to 8th, 1.5 compared to 2). Bthrow and Fthrow are great if you're close to the edge when you grab because people are usually forced to recover low. However, the fact that they're so horizontal means characters can grab ledge before Ike has time to set up an offstage edge guard if he grabs midstage. Of course, that won't necessarily be the case at extremely high percents but it still bodes well for Zards that are trying to abuse rage and not die early. We need to take center stage and chill at death percent. If we get pushed to the ledge, we need to work our way back to midstage.

I don't mean a slow aerial approach in terms of aerial mobility. I should have been more clear but I meant that in terms of frame data. Ike's Nair and Fair are frame 12 moves and Zard's Fair is frame 8. Frame 12 for an approaching aerial is not particularly quick.
 
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TheNiddo
#7
Ike can reach the platforms while being on the ground just fine. No trouble trapping Charizard there at all between Utilt, Usmash, and SH Uair/Nair/Fair all hitting the lower platforms with ease. Unless you mean some other sort of trapping I'm not thinking of.

Ike can also approach with Bair, which is frame 7. And auto-cancels so its a fairly commonly used tool.
 
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OgnarPliskin
#8
Dream Land is Ike's best stage. Why on earth would you tell a board to CP us there? We want characters to take us there. We're one of the characters the least interrupted by the wind, and the higher platform heights help us while hurting a lot of other characters.

@ C charizardbro

Ike's dash speed ain't bad. Bthrow and Fthrow are both actually pretty great for setting up edgeguarding situations because they have like almost no vertical aspect and are mainly horizontal. Uthrow to aerials at kill percents I'd have to check, but generally speaking the heavier and/or faster the character falls the longer we can combo them. Uthrow to Fair near the edge at a minimum is probably linking at kill percents.

Ike's aerial approach isn't slow. As seen here: http://smashboards.com/threads/smas...s-and-values-now-with-raw-real-values.383217/ Same as ROB and Bowser Jr.

Everything else seems fairly accurate. Ike wins the MU, I don't have any idea on a ratio though.
Actually, there are several characters where platform stages are a bad idea for Ike. Charizard is one, Rosalina is another. Charizard, as well as ROB, benefit from an earlier kill by using UThrow where there is a platform. However, on the flipside, characters like ROB, lose their approach options on BF, so it's kind of a "pick and choose" battle. Rosalina is bad due to all the juggling she can do to you. Going FD is your best bet.

As for Charizard, our #2 guy is a Charizard main and tends to favor these stages. I've learned quickly to take him to Smashville or FD whenever they aren't banned.
 

charizardbro

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#9
He can reach them, sure, but his movement speeds and frame data don't allow him to do so fast enough if he has to do a whole lot of horizontal movement before then (like the way he would on DL). He traps Zard so well on Battlefield because the stage itself just isn't that wide and he can get under Zard quickly, catching Zard before he lands a lot more often.

It's also notable that this stage gives Uthrow a lot better kill power.

Bair also doesn't hit grounded opponents nearly as well as Fair, especially if you want any hope of autocanceling it. I haven't ever seen an Ike approach with Bair. It's also way easier to punish on whiff because it doesn't have many active frames.
 

Steeler

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#11
Yeah Zard is pretty tall, i think bair still hits if autocanceled.

Tbh I think both characters are pretty similar, it really hinges on how well Ike can space. Zard has a much stronger shield game with his dash speed, grab range, and fast up B/usmash. Ike is a lot more safe than Zard in the air because of his superior air speed combined with the lesser landing lag. Still punishable if not spaced well. On the ground these characters are basically the same in terms of jab/tilt/smashes, with some minor differences. Flamethrower is really good.

Don't take Zard to DL64, that is dumb as **** LOL
 
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EziPizi
#12
Ike has the advantage for several reasons:

1) Charizard's most powerful counterattack - Flare Bitz - can not only be Counter-killed by Ike. But using it as a recovery option can leave you highly susceptible to a partially-charged Eruption, which can kill Charizard around the 85% mark.
2) Fly can leave Charizard susceptible to Eruption as well, especially if you go to the lowest point of recovery.
3) Overall, Ike still out-ranges Charizard.

Charizard's best weapons, regardless, are Fair and Bair. They're both highly ranged and enough to counter any of Ike's moves besides Fair and Bair. In those cases, they will actually beat his moves out if you're close enough, and Charizard's Bair has killing power to boot.

Best stages to counterpick an Ike are Dream Land, Battlefield, Town and City, and Duck Hunt. You have the Uthrow kill for less kill % if you can manage it. Your grab range is also sick, especially in comparison to Ike's. Rock Smash and Flamethrower are good "respect" moves for an Ike getting in too close with offense. We're forced to play defense and bait your approaches with Nair.
Hm, not sure about Zard´s Bair. It is rangey and really powerful but if he misses it, he´s in for a big punish since this move in unbelievably laggy. I believe Zards jab and especially grabrange are the most helpful against Ike, along with Fair. Zard gets quite a lot from his grabs since he got buffed in 1.0.8 in that aspect (Dthrow combos, Upthrow being a really potent killthrow). And Zard also got that flamethrower which is also helpful.
 
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OgnarPliskin
#13
Hm, not sure about Zard´s Bair. It is rangey and really powerful but if he misses it, he´s in for a big punish since this move in unbelievably laggy. I believe Zards jab and especially grabrange are the most helpful against Ike, along with Fair. Zard gets quite a lot from his grabs since he got buffed in 1.0.8 in that aspect (Dthrow combos, Upthrow being a really potent killthrow). And Zard also got that flamethrower which is also helpful.
Dingo can get some good kills on the Bair when I play him. The jab and grab range are insane. Same for his Ftilt and Dtilt. It always comes down to a very careful spacing game.
 

Dovahchief

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#14
I think Ike would likely have the advantage. Ike already has huge range, and when compared to Charizard's large hitbox, it's fairly east for Ike to pull of highly damaging combos on him. D-tilt to forward air to u-tilt is disgustingly easy to do with Ike against large character and that by itself does 40%. Ike also has more aerial mobility, and is generally just safer. Ike's biggest advantage though, is his Counter. Flare Blitzing back to the stage? Counter. Up-B? Counter. Since both of those moves are easy to predict, Ike can kill Charizard at low percents. Charizard still has his advantages though. Charizard is bug, but Ike's no small target. Charizard can combo him, and bait counters by charging up smash attacks and such. I think Ike wins the MU, and is maybe even the best heavyweight in the game, but I don't know the ratio as to where he wins. 7-3 or 6-4 maybe?
 

Mightyno.M

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Mickeyx
#15
I think Ike would likely have the advantage. Ike already has huge range, and when compared to Charizard's large hitbox, it's fairly east for Ike to pull of highly damaging combos on him. D-tilt to forward air to u-tilt is disgustingly easy to do with Ike against large character and that by itself does 40%. Ike also has more aerial mobility, and is generally just safer. Ike's biggest advantage though, is his Counter. Flare Blitzing back to the stage? Counter. Up-B? Counter. Since both of those moves are easy to predict, Ike can kill Charizard at low percents. Charizard still has his advantages though. Charizard is bug, but Ike's no small target. Charizard can combo him, and bait counters by charging up smash attacks and such. I think Ike wins the MU, and is maybe even the best heavyweight in the game, but I don't know the ratio as to where he wins. 7-3 or 6-4 maybe?
Pls bare in mind when a match-up is 7-3 thats essentially Pikachu 0-death chain grab on fox so I highly doubt that match up ratio will be used outside Maybe and I mean maybe ZSS
6-4 I doubt a bit ad well but could be as I've faced maybe 1 Ike in tourney but again I'm a bit skeptical

I honestly think that this match-up is even as both can just end up out playing them While I do believe
 

Hanku Hirru

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#16
I'd say the match up, at least on paper, is that Ike slightly edges out Charizard due to the range of his disjoints and that he has safer options. Truthfully, the only advantages I see Zard holding over Ike are his spacing with a well-placed flamethrower (makes approaching Zard difficult as he can wall you out) and his absurd grab game. I play both extensively and more often than not, I beat many Ike's (I main Charizard, although I tend to hop between different characters more often than I care to admit) I face in FG -- it is FG, so scrubs galore -- but I can definitely see this as a fight down to the wire.
 

Pi Aaa

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#17
The only thing I can think of doing (which hasn't been said already) is to perfect shield Ike's falling nairs/fairs and punish them, since those are his most telegraphed spacing options. Otherwise the pushback on shield is too much for Charizard to attempt anything cheeky on Ike's frame disadvantage.
 
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TheNiddo
#18
If we start playing the powershield game and point it back towards Charizard as well, things start looking rather ugly, lol.

Keep in mind after the last patch, Ike's Uair is now Rosalina tier. And we can combo into it.

Granted, Charizard got an even better Dthrow as well now so *shrugs*. Still probably slightly Ike's advantage. 55-45 or 60-40 from Ike's prospective.
 

charizardbro

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#19
If we start playing the powershield game and point it back towards Charizard as well, things start looking rather ugly, lol.

Keep in mind after the last patch, Ike's Uair is now Rosalina tier. And we can combo into it.

Granted, Charizard got an even better Dthrow as well now so *shrugs*. Still probably slightly Ike's advantage. 55-45 or 60-40 from Ike's prospective.
Zard wouldn't approach Ike in the air so it's not quite that reversible but that's a valid point nonetheless. None of our stuff is particularly safe on powershield either. I do think that it's still worth mentioning though. Ike would probably approach with aerials in the MU anyway so going for powershields is still a solid bet for Zard. It's a good thing to do for both characters but I think the MU usually makes Ike out to be the aggressor because of Flamethrower. Hence, power shields are something Zard can exploit more than Ike can, even though both characters can make use of them.

Rosalina tier is a bit of a stretch for Ike's Uair imo. Granted, it does hit slightly harder.

After reading the thread, I'm going to put the MU at 55:45 in favor of Ike or 50:50. I think the 'better' player will win almost all of the time in the MU, barring any huge mistakes like missed stage techs or unforced SDs.

Zard really does have to watch out for those Dtilts and grabs though. Otherwise, shield and punish if possible and space with flamethrower. Getting hit by Dtilt early will make the MU very hard for Zard though.
 
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TheNiddo
#20
It doesn't hit "slightly" harder. Its killing mid weight characters at Smashville between 70-80% with a pretty low amount of rage. Before it could hit at 100% and still not kill in that same situation.

I've never seen anyone consistently powershield Ike's aerials. Particularly Bair because well, 7 frames. You ain't reacting to that, you're blindly guessing. In general you just plain old don't account for powershielding in a MU discussion. Everyone knows it exists, nobody is great enough at it for it to be accounted for. Counting powershielding was the bad Inui level logic he tried to use back in the Brawl days to say Ike was the second worst character in the game.

Besides, good Ikes will be mixing in empty hops, tomahawks, walking up and just jabbing/grabbing/dtilting, etc. Won't be only aerials.
 

charizardbro

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#21
I'm just going off of knockback values on kuroganehammer which are 40/100 for Ike compared to 40/98 for Rosalina. That sounds about equal to me. Are those wrong or did I miss something?

I'm talking more about Nair/Fair which seem to be the more popular (but obviously not the only) approach options for Ike in the way of aerials which are frame 12.

I don't think it makes or breaks the MU. All I said is that it's worth mentioning given this is a MU where Zard will probably have to shield a lot and play more defense. I don't see how that is so unreasonable.
 

Steeler

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#22
The reason Rosa uair is insane is because of Luma's values, not hers. Also Ike uair was patched, not sure what the new values are

Ike would have a notable advantage if Zard didn't have a kill throw or Flamethrower. He's probably got a slight advantage because he's safer with similar power, but Zard is very good at defense (one of the best grabs and jabs in the game, Fly and usmash are strong and insanely fast out of shield) and overcoming deficits (lots of damage off grabs, janky Dragon Rush gimps, Rock Smash). The better player will win.

55:45 Ike
 
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#23
New Uair Values:
  • Growth reduced 100→94
  • Base increased 40→55
Taken from the patch topic. The base increase is well ahead of the growth reduction in terms of effect.

For comparisons: Fox's last hit is 30/100 (base/growth), Charizard's is 30/105, ZSS's Uair is 30/110, Luma is 110/60 (Really wish DK, Ness, or ROB had their info up on the Kurogane site, those are better direct comparisons and the reverse method of Luma's stats make it more awkward to compare)
 
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Pi Aaa

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#24
Looks like I opened a can of worms on powershielding, lol

Didn't mean to advocate it as an end-all be-all solution to nairs/fairs, especially since there are a bunch of ways to blow up powershield fishing, but the option's there.
 
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OgnarPliskin
#25
If we start playing the powershield game and point it back towards Charizard as well, things start looking rather ugly, lol.

Keep in mind after the last patch, Ike's Uair is now Rosalina tier. And we can combo into it.

Granted, Charizard got an even better Dthrow as well now so *shrugs*. Still probably slightly Ike's advantage. 55-45 or 60-40 from Ike's prospective.
How exactly does the new Uair work for Ike?
 
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#26
How exactly does the new Uair work for Ike?
It has way more BKB (40->55) and a bit less KBG (100->95). It kills a lot earlier. It also got it´s landing lag reduced in patch 1.0.8 (18 frames->15 frames I believe) so it actually combos into itself. It´s really good now!
 
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