Charizard Matchup Discussion - Ganondorf

A2ZOMG

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#2
I'm pretty sure @Swoops might have some good insight.

Would argue it's slight adv Charizard from what little I know. Charizard's run speed, Jab, and firebreath give him more control over neutral. Ganon can keep up with Flame Choke and generally better aerials. More importantly though, like most heavy vs heavy matchups, this one can be swung on a dime given random F-smash hard reads are not exactly the hardest thing to do.
 
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#3
A Charizard advantage for sure. Better frame data, especially on his jab, can easily edgeguard and thus gimp Ganondorf. Flamethrower simply destroys Dorf due to his poor jumps and slow approach in addition to a lack of a projectile or a reflector or absorber, not to say my favorite ginger has no strong points though, Warlock Punch can be overlooked but if Manon gets a hard read, he will take a stock, such as if he armors through Flare Blitz. His aerials actually come out quicker than Zard's for the most part, and his down aerial is nearly assured death. Zard should beware his Spartan kick because it kills at around 100 near the edge with a little rage, and don't get your getup read if you miss a tech on Flame Choke, and finally, fear Ganoncide, can't tell you how many matches I've won because my opponents fall for it in a match they should have won. All in all, a +1 for Charizard.
 

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#5
We wall Ganondorf out pretty hard. We win the neutral.

Problem is.... We make one mistake and we die.
 

Jyro

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#6
Ganondorf main here!
I've had trouble in this matchup and I'd give a slight advantage to Charizard. For other matchups, Ganondorf can edgeguard with dair, up-air, or bair, or tippered up-air so that the opponent cannot recover high enough; but not against Charizard because of the third jump and super armor on Fly. Charizard is also heavier than even Ganondorf himself and can mix up his recovery with Flare Blitz, so Ganon has a pretty hard time stopping Charizard offstage. Charizard then has an easier time edgeguarding Dorf with Flamethrower, with Dorf taking lots of damage just trying to recover.

Charizard wins the neutral because Ganondorf's risky approach options have a hard time getting past Flamethrower/Zard's range, and Zard's Fsmash can sway back to avoid an approaching dash attack, Wizard's Foot, or Flame choke, or just power through with invincibility frames. Zard's grab range and run speed help control neutral as well. It's also harder for Ganondorf to punish a landing because of the multiple jumps and Rock Smash, but...

If Ganon can get in, he can combo Zard's big body and weight for lots of damage at lower percents. Dorf's aerial's frame data and decent range are good for controlling aerial space and punishing a Zard getting too close. A misused Flamethower can be punished with Dair and more. Ganon will hit hard; a bad read by Zard or a predictable landing can mean an early kill by smash attack.

That's all I can think of for now. I think Charizard advantage around 55-45, possibly more
 
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adom4

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#8
Zard is generally better in neutral (through Nair & Flamethrower mostly) but i feel like Ganon's punishes are a lot better than Zard's (also Zard's frame data isn't really a whole lot better, Ganon's aerials are all faster than Zard's except for Fair & the ground moves are similiar give or take, his big advantage is the jab though).

Luckily for you Zard's tech roll is decent enough to avoid getting punished hard after techs, but if he doesn't tech he's pathetically easy to chase because his grounded roll has almost no distance at all.
Also it's like the only MU where warlock punch is actually decent lol.

In the end i do agree it's probably 55-45 Zard though, maybe it's even but it's arguable.
 
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HeavyLobster

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#10
I actually feel like Ganon slightly wins, as his aerials are much better than Charizard's and his midrange spacing is overall stronger. Flame Choke destroys Charizard, and he has to be careful about running up and shielding because of it. Charizard does win CQC and offstage though. Flamethrower does challenge Ganon's spacing and is useful as a poke, though. I don't really see how Charizard actually walls out Ganon, since Nair loses to Ganon's aerials and Flamethrower can be laggy. It's really close either way and probably even even though I find the MU easier for Ganon than Zard, as Zard's edgeguarding in this MU is really good and makes up for a lot. I don't see how Zard outright wins neutral, it feels pretty evenish with Ganon winning in the air and Zard winning slightly on the ground. Both punish each other pretty hard though, so it can be pretty volatile.
 

Lyserdon

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#11
I actually feel like Ganon slightly wins, as his aerials are much better than Charizard's and his midrange spacing is overall stronger. Flame Choke destroys Charizard, and he has to be careful about running up and shielding because of it. Charizard does win CQC and offstage though. Flamethrower does challenge Ganon's spacing and is useful as a poke, though. I don't really see how Charizard actually walls out Ganon, since Nair loses to Ganon's aerials and Flamethrower can be laggy. It's really close either way and probably even even though I find the MU easier for Ganon than Zard, as Zard's edgeguarding in this MU is really good and makes up for a lot. I don't see how Zard outright wins neutral, it feels pretty evenish with Ganon winning in the air and Zard winning slightly on the ground. Both punish each other pretty hard though, so it can be pretty volatile.
Ganon's aerials and Flame Choke may make approaching difficult for Charizard, but Ganon also has no way to make Charizard approach, so losing run up shield doesn't hurt too bad in this matchup.

As for spacing, I think Ganon only really threatens Charizard in the band outside Charizard's jab and inside Ganon's tilts. And Charizard's relative mobility means he'll have an easier time controlling the spacing on top of a wider range to choose from where his options beat Ganon's.

I agree that Ganon wins in the air but the flying dragon with wings and a move called Fly has terrible aviophobia in most matchups and would rather stay on the ground and anti-air/shield (grab) attempts to take the party skyward.

Overall I'd say that Charizard will win neutral slightly more often than Ganon, can press an advantaged state a little more consistently, and has a solidly better time in disadvantage, especially offstage. Ganondorf gets high reward when he does get in, but Charizard puts out good damage too, and I don't think hitting harder is enough. I'd say worst case for Charizard is he wins 55-45.
 

Virum

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#12
Zard wins this match-up imo for the simple fact that Zard can force and condition options from Ganon just by pressing B. Having abysmal speed and mobility alongside having no projectile Ganon has literally no answer to well spaced Flamethrowers. At its most tedious level it's a case of Zard abusing Flamethrower until he can force some kind of mistake out of Ganon, hitting him up with quick string then backing off again. The reason why I feel this match-up has to be played cautiously and defensively on Zard's part is due to Ganon's overwhelming power. Zard should be landing most of the hits as well as dictating the pace of the match but as soon as Ganon is able to close the gap or he is given more free reign over his neutral options Ganon will lay down the hurt. As aforementioned 3 of Ganon's aerials are not only faster than Zard's (3 of his most relevant onstage aerials at that) but also stronger. Per hit Ganon has the highest damage output in the game so getting hit by him is terrifying even as a super heavy like Zard.

Offstage Zard wins by a landslide. Not only does Fly's armour help mitigate some of Ganon's potent edgeguarding options (though his edgeguarding prowess is something you should always be weary of, his BAir and UAir for instance are fantastic at this), but gimping him is also relatively easy due to Ganon have arguably one of the worst recoveries in the game.
 

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#13
I feel like flamethrower is being highly overrated in this MU, Ganon´s dtilt will out space it after about a second and it takes a while for Zard to leave his immobile state, leading to a ton of stage control for Ganon, besides that I find dark dive is actually really helpful offstage in this MU because of Zard´s massive hitbox and the fact that it beats the armor on his Special. In my experience Zards Uthrow only kills on the Duck Hunt tree, but Ganons weight is too much for any other use to kill him.

Fair destroys us tho....

Zard 53 - Ganon 47
It´s really mostly player skill + mindgames here.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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#14
Could do either way.

One good read from either can end a stock. Zard came all kind of but not to he degree I think other characters could. Use a lot of Jab as Zard, know how to tech Ganon's side B.
 

Ray_Kalm

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#15
Everyone has the right idea. In short, Charizard could claim victory over neutral very quick, and almost always. His recovery is also versatile and not so easy to gaurd against.

Ganon, however, punishes harder and with slightly more damage, and he also has stronger aerial killing options which very well evens the playing fields.

50:50, stage dependent slight advantage for either.
 
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_Magus_

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#16
I once super armored through a flare blitz with a warlock punch and landed it as the charizard was falling back and taking recoil. Zard is one of the only characters that we have a guaranteed/semi guaranteed WP setup on, and one that isn't super gimmicky too. Just throwin that out there :p
 
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HeavyLobster

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#17
I once super armored through a flare blitz with a warlock punch and landed it as the charizard was falling back and taking recoil. Zard is one of the only characters that we have a guaranteed/semi guaranteed WP setup on, and one that isn't super gimmicky too. Just throwin that out there :p
True, but good Zard players won't do that. Super fun way to take out the FG ones though.
 

Xinc

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#22
A bit late, but Charizard does have the tools to give Ganon a hard time. It's probably a +1. Ganon can still take advantage of Charizard's large body, as well as his slow and not-so-good get up options out of Flame Choke.
 

Steeler

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#23
Yeah Zard definitely has an advantage. How can you say Zard wins neutral "almost always" and still justify it being an even matchup lololol. Zard's disadvantage is pretty bad so it's not a curbstomp but seriously...
 

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#24
Yeah Zard definitely has an advantage. How can you say Zard wins neutral "almost always" and still justify it being an even matchup lololol. Zard's disadvantage is pretty bad so it's not a curbstomp but seriously...
The same way you can call MK vs. Sheik even. Sheik beats MK in the neutral, but MK can end her with one up air to up b combo off of the top.

Hope you enjoyed "laughing out loud out loud out loud" :p
 
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Steeler

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#25
And Ganon has guaranteed, reliable kill combos as well? off a dash attack or other similarly reliable punish? pls

charizard can end stocks just as well when ganon's in a bad spot (bad recovery) so... you can justify that ganon punishes really hard but charizard does so as well, especially when knocking ganon off stage. charizard doesn't hit like a wet paper bag either lmao
 

_Magus_

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#26
And Ganon has guaranteed, reliable kill combos as well? off a dash attack or other similarly reliable punish? pls

charizard can end stocks just as well when ganon's in a bad spot (bad recovery) so... you can justify that ganon punishes really hard but charizard does so as well, especially when knocking ganon off stage. charizard doesn't hit like a wet paper bag either lmao
EDIT: Ignore. Missed the rest of your post.

Off of weak DA Ganon can convert into aerial finishers, and Ganon destroys Zard hard out of choke, teched or otherwise. So, yes.
 
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charizardbro

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#27
EDIT: Ignore. Missed the rest of your post.

Off of weak DA Ganon can convert into aerial finishers, and Ganon destroys Zard hard out of choke, teched or otherwise. So, yes.
Went and labbed both of those things.

Weak DA doesn't true combo into anything without DI. I can't say for sure, but at the very least Charizard would have to DI in for that to actually be a threat. Unteched choke true combos into usmash and fsmash according to the combo counter in training which is an issue because it kills early and does tons of damage. Not sure what ganon can do on teched choke other than read it and go for another. Not sure how easy that is to do or if it can be done on reaction either (Zard's roll isn't little mac bad... I think).

That being said, I think Zard can pretty reasonably interrupt choke with jab/dtilt or fair (if read) so I'm not sure how much use you'll really get out of it against a Zard that has experience in the MU.
 
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_Magus_

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#28
And Ganon has guaranteed, reliable kill combos as well? off a dash attack or other similarly reliable punish? pls

charizard can end stocks just as well when ganon's in a bad spot (bad recovery) so... you can justify that ganon punishes really hard but charizard does so as well, especially when knocking ganon off stage. charizard doesn't hit like a wet paper bag either lmao
Went and labbed both of those things.

Weak DA doesn't true combo into anything without DI. I can't say for sure, but at the very least Charizard would have to DI in for that to actually be a threat. Unteched choke true combos into usmash and fsmash according to the combo counter in training which is an issue because it kills early and does tons of damage. Not sure what ganon can do on teched choke other than read it and go for another. Not sure how easy that is to do or if it can be done on reaction either (Zard's roll isn't little mac bad... I think).

That being said, I think Zard can pretty reasonably interrupt choke with jab/dtilt or fair (if read) so I'm not sure how much use you'll really get out of it against a Zard that has experience in the MU.
we have a thread specifically on sour spot DA to up air and the percentages at which it works.

Also, choke isn't an approach option. It's not going to be used while Ganon is rushing at you. Yes, if reacted to it could be interrupted, but if you're able to anticipate it that easily, the Ganon isn't an experienced one and isn't using it correctly. It's not like we're just going to keep dashing at zard and using side b straight into him over and over.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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#29
I will say that Flamethrower is a nuisance for Ganondorf, since that move makes it very hard for him to land a Flame Choke or Wizard's Foot on Charizard; even Fireball Cannon can stop those moves in their tracks.
 

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#31
At this point, why are we even arguing about the matchup? When is this going to happen? Almost never, that's when.
Even if the Charizard vs. Ganondorf match-up isn't a common sight, it still pays to study that match-up if any Charizard users ever have to face Ganondorf in a competitive match.
 
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charizardbro

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#34
we have a thread specifically on sour spot DA to up air and the percentages at which it works.

Also, choke isn't an approach option. It's not going to be used while Ganon is rushing at you. Yes, if reacted to it could be interrupted, but if you're able to anticipate it that easily, the Ganon isn't an experienced one and isn't using it correctly. It's not like we're just going to keep dashing at zard and using side b straight into him over and over.
Then feel free to link it. I've played a few pretty good ganons and have never had to worry about guaranteed stuff off of late DA

Also don't go putting words in my mouth m8. I never said ganon would approach with it. Just that making reads with it is substantially harder because mashing jab will beat it so often. There's not much room for error in terms of timing. Due to the startup of the move itself, you do not need to anticipate or read when ganon is going to use it to interrupt it with jabs (or at least start mashing jab).
 
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#35
Charizard is faster, better recovery, his flamethrower gives at Charizard a good possibility to interfere with the midway or to return to the stage. However Ganondorf is more powerful, the B side can severely impede Charizard and can quickly the 'chain with combos and his smash attacks come more quickly (check).

Regarding air attacks:

Nair: :4ganondorf: is better
Fair: :4ganondorf:=:4charizard: (that of Ganondorf is more powerful and has better range, but that of Charizard has less lag and can chain with its three jumps)

Uair: :4ganondorf:is better
Dair: Ganondorf is better
Bair: :4ganondorf:is better

I would say the MU is of 55-45 for Ganondorf
 

arbustopachon

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#36
Zard's Nair autocancels from a short hop and covers his body with a mildly disjointed hitbox so i wouldn't say Dorf's Nair is better.
Zard nair can also combo into Ftilt or be followed by a jab, potentially setting up edgeguards or jab2 shenanigans.
Dorf's up, back and down air are definitetly better than zards tho.
 
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