Charizard Matchup Discussion - Bowser Jr.

RadianB

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#2
If you've got the timing down on grabbing the mechakoopas then it's not a bad match up.
It's very difficult for Bowser Jr. to recover low against Charizard so the Bowser Jr. player is nearly always going to recover high. Charizard can easily take advantage of this and punish him during his Koopa Kart. If you're brave enough you can also try to Flare Blitz him during Koopa Kart if you predict the correct time he is about to use it.
On the ground Charizard can short hop Flare Blitz over the Cannon Ball and MechaKoopa and hit Bowser Jr. during his attack animation so this is going to make the Bowser Jr. player cautious as he knows he can't spam those 2 specials against Charizard.
MechaKoops are still a problem for Charizard though if the Bowser Jr. player uses them at the correct time or distance where Charizard can't punish him. Like other heavies, Charizard's large size makes them hard to avoid so you need to rely on grabbing them which can be quite difficult in certain situations.
Another problem I personally have is trying to punish Bowser Jr.'s landing. Abandon Ship makes it quite tricky to predict his landing and since the ship explodes on contact he can sometimes get away if he jumps to the other side of the ship that I'm on because Charizard's slow airspeed make it hard to pursue him.
Overall though I think the Match up is 50/50 because they're pretty equal in neutral.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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#3
I'm actually gonna say that Jr loses pretty badly to us.

Flamethrower stops most recovery options.

And we don't even have to go offstage.

Getting Jr. offstage is the problem which isn't too bad in my experience. Using armor and range is key.
 

RadianB

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#4
I'm actually gonna say that Jr loses pretty badly to us.

Flamethrower stops most recovery options.

And we don't even have to go offstage.

Getting Jr. offstage is the problem which isn't too bad in my experience. Using armor and range is key.
I have very little match up experience against him so you could be right.
 
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#5
I'm still new to Charizard, but so far this has proven to be a difficult match-up for me if the Jr player decides to simply run and spam (which a lot do). When I get my openings, I can deal a lot of damage and get the KO. Unfortunately, playing keep away with Charizard isn't so fun. Also, if you happen to run into Jr's f-smash, you're going to have a bad time. Right now, I think my difficulties are just a result of still learning the character.
 

Splooshi Splashy

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#6
I've once given some intel regarding this MU in this Thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-deal-with-very-campy-very-bait-n-punish-players.402709/
As an addition to what I've said back then, there IS an area above him you actually do NOT want to be at, and that's directly straight-up above his head, because of Jr's fast, disjointed juggler that which is his UAir (his absolute fastest aerial, even faster than NAir!). Hover to the sides of his head where his UAir will struggle to reach you when jockeying for the high ground. I may have alluded to his Side B Jump Cancels back then, but today, I'll be going over it in full.

I'll admit, I've also spoken against Flare Blitz spamming Zards in FG Teams over at the Online section of Smashboards, often recommending Jr among 5 other picks (DH, Pac-Man, Alph, Kirby, and another Zard) for confronting such players.

Today, I'll finally give this MU a full rundown from the non-FB-spamming Zard's perspective that's going to include more juicy intel than just the defensive lame styles.

If I've missed anything regarding fighting Jrs somehow, you can refer to this series of posts (http://smashboards.com/threads/sic-...-and-maybe-bowser.379294/page-5#post-19521092) for more intel. However, this was written from DH's perspective, so I'm not sure how much of what's written there will be transferable to us Zards.



Match Vid References:
A livestreamed tournament match from a month ago (1 match only): https://youtu.be/2sVSQbPEbcw?t=3m39s

Another livestreamed tournament match from almost 2 months ago (the 1st of 3 matches): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muvXUCi0jEo

A customs-on tournament match from 3 months ago (Jr's running 1111 and Zard's running 1311): https://youtu.be/0trd0P2STLk?t=2m42s



Let's start with his default Mechakoopa. Your Flamethrower will likely lose to Mecha, due to it often not dealing enough damage by the time it reaches you (much like it is for Bowser himself), so I'd advise trying another more reliable option. As have noted, picking up Mecha with moves like dash attacks and airdodges are a great way to get in on Jr. Do NOT Flare Blitz default Mecha if its already walking around the stage and Jr's nowhere nearby, because while you'll blow up the Mecha, you'll ultimately crash onto the floor, creating an opening for Jr to Side B ram you into Jump Cancelled UAir sharking strings. Dragon Rush will fare just as badly, for Mecha will directly blow up in your face for full damage and knockback, and if Jr's prepared for this, he'll Side B towards you for a followup or two. If you really want to FB or DR him during his Mecha, either you start it early enough where neither Jr nor his Mecha are moving, or as mentioned already, you shorthop before FB/DR-ing. Rock Smash/Hurling through default Mechas is not advised either, because while you may armor through the 1st pop-up hit, the 2nd explosive hit will cleanly tag you.

Next up is Cannonballs. Do NOT Flare Blitz through a fully charged Cannonball directly, for you will not only lose, but you'll take full damage and knockback for it, especially now that, as of the 1.1.0 patch, Jr's Cannonballs all around do more damage now. Tapped/Uncharged Cannonballs are fair game for FB-ing thru. If even FB loses to charged Cannonballs, I cannot expect DR to do any better. At least DR will clank with tapped Cannonballs, yet FB will pierce through it and possibly hit Jr for full damage. Like with Mechas, Flamethrower is not recommended, for even tapped Cannonballs will pierce through it. Rock Smash/Hurl may let you armor through Cannonballs without flinching, but you'll still take full damage for it.

However, for as much trouble as Jr's arsenal can give to Zard by themselves, this is what I consider to be one of Jr's most important tools that can really propel Jr from a mere annoyance to a potential threat: The Short Hop Side B Jump Cancel. MUCH of what he's capable of is because of this. I specify Short Hop, because Jr can start-up Side 1 faster if he short hops before using Side 1, allowing him to catch openings that he otherwise would miss. To quote myself from the DH MU Thread:
How have I gone this far without gushing over Jr's Side B Jump Cancels? These do so much for him, it's one of his core moves that allow him to be as good as he is. Without that, this MU would easily be at least +1 in DH's favor. Jr can use Side B Jump Cancels for numerous purposes, from maintaining the high ground against you, to maneuvering around your arsenal, to delivering devastating damage-building punishes at virtually any percent (at 0%, Side B --> JC --> DAir --> SH FAir --> Jab string (juggle ends here) or DTilt (juggle ends here) or UTilt x? --> UAir x? is possible, dealing over 30+%), to even setting up a reliable KO method via Side B --> JC (at 75-ish%, put UAir here before the next step) --> Up B --> (A) Hammer. THIS is why I call Jr the Prince of Juggles.
As quoted, without Side B Jump Cancels, this MU would EASILY be at LEAST +1 or 55/45 Zard's favor, for stuffing Side B approaches that aren't supported by JCs or even Mechas are easy: Flamethrower, Flare Blitz/Dragon Rush, Rock Smash/Hurl (while it can simply be ran through if Jr keeps holding forward during Side B, you'll catch any JCs he might attempt with the Rocks if he's prone to spamming it), gutsy well-timed FTilt/DTilt/Jab, aerials in general, and blocking it (followed by guard cancels into grab/USmash/Up 1/JC-ed aerials) are all great ways to stuff it.

Another quote from the DH MU thread:
Stuffing Side 1 with Jump Cancels is harder, since he can use them for multiple purposes, whether for baiting out certain moves from you (such as Clays), faking you out into committing to a move, or as a way to traverse the skies (likely over your arsenal). Expecting this? Block if you think he'll ram into you first before JC-ing and guard cancel from there. Otherwise go straight to the air with FAir or run under him for the Run-Up Smash.
To add to that, if he expects you to immediately throw out an attack after he JCs, he may airdodge in response to that expectation, so if we Zards read that expectation, we can delay our attack(s) until after the airdodge is over. NAir, FAir, Rock Smash/Hurl, Fly (best when Guard Cancelled into), and possibly FB/DR would all make good aerial attacks to throw out against his Side B JCs.

At 0%, he still has to use the Side B ram --> JC --> DAir --> Short Hop FAir --> Neutral A string / DTilt / UTilt x? --> UAir x? sequence to maximize damage on you. However, unlike most other characters, if he lands a Side B ram on you at 20-ish+%, instead of JC-ing into the stated 0% juggle sequence, he can just opt for JC-ing into multiple UAirs for ease in execution, big damage, and positional advantage. So if he lands a Side B ram at virtually any percent, and if his execution's on Tweek fleek, you're gonna eat a lot of damage from 2+ UAirs during those openings he finds and reaches.

As an aggressive rushdown Jr main myself, while I may be content with attempting to lame you out with Mechas and Cannonballs, if/once you close in, the #1 thing I'm going to want to land is the SH Side B ram, due to the sheer damage output I can score off of even just 1 of them (UAir sharking ahoy if you're at 20-ish+% because big bodies make for big targets, Jr himself included). If you're at 100-ish% if/when I land the Side B ram, I'll JC into Up B --> A (Hammer) for the KO, so if/once I build up your percent to that, be on the lookout for that Side B ram. Bait it with frame traps if you can; just don't get rammed for doing so.

That's not to say that Jrs will solely be trying to Side B ram you whenever you're close by, far from it. He'll definitely be spacing you out with Tilts, shorthop NAirs, and especially SH FAirs that he can autocancel into seemingly any grounded A button attack he chooses, with Jab string and UTilt being among his most desired followups from SH FAir. His 4-frame Jab and especially DTilt will challenge your 4-frame Jab, and those two moves of his will generally outspeed every Tilt you have.

That's also not the only KO move Jrs will be fishing for, as these are among his other options:
KO Moves: BAir
FAir (near the edges, definitely. Most likely, because of how important this move is for building damage, it'll be heavily staled),
UAir
NAir (when going for the stage spike or edgeguard)
FTilt (at 150+% near the edges)
Neutral A string (close to the edge at 130+%? Don't count on the launcher punch to connect too often at that point)
Side B JC -> UAir --> Up B --> A (hammer) KOs at around 75-ish%
Side B JC --> Up B --> A (hammer) KOs at around 100-ish%
FSmash at 90+%
DSmash at 110+%?
USmash at 100+%?
Back Throw at 150+% near the edges
The Spinout during Side B at around 130+% near the edges
Up B in general

Charged Cannonballs to pierce through his arsenal when he's at 100+% would be another good KO move to have on deck.
Since the 1.1.0 patch, Cannonballs have become more potent as a KO move now, so using FB/DR to dodge above or below it and Rock Smash/Hurl to armor through it might be more appealing options now.

Zard's grab is superior to Jr's in every way. At low %s, Zard gets good juggles off of his DThrow & BThrow, and at high %s (100+%, he can KO off of UThrow, especially at the topmost platforms of Duck Hunt, Dream Land 64, and Town & City. Jr's throws canNOT be juggled after, even with SH Side B chases, and his best throws for this MU are either BThrow for pure damage building and at-the-edge KO-ing at 150+%, or UThrow for the positional advantage. Jr's grab is slower than Zard's in every way, and its range is not good enough to compensate for its slowness.

While I may have mentioned maintaining the high ground, Jr's motive for doing so is to decrease the amount of damage and knockback he takes from your hits by having said hits land on the Clown Car instead of his squishy head, and with your mighty UTilt, USmash, (shorthop) NAir, Fly, and Rock Smash/Hurl, he may not be AS eager to hover above you as he would against someone like Duck Hunt or WFT.

As stated earlier, he won't want to recover low against you too often, due to your Flamethrower being able to easily gimp him post Up B at virtually any %. With Side B Jump Cancels, he can more comfortably recover high than the majority of the cast, and depending on how high up and/or far you've sent him, he may not have to use his Up B or even his Side B JC to reach the stage, which is when he gets many options to mix-up his recovery with. It IS true that Jrs will likely be recovering high, so brace yourself for whatever mix-up he has planned, which might include his Side B JC into said many options.

Jrs will think twice about chasing you upwards with Up B --> A (Hammer), due to your Rock Smash/Hurl armoring through their Hammer swings and sending them to the stratosphere for their sharking attempt.

You ARE slightly heavier than he is, so you'll stick around longer than Jr will, especially if you land headshots on him.

If you're trying to recover against Jr, get ready for him to chase you to the ends of the earth for the edgeguard, because of how far & long his Side B JC can let him be off-stage and yet still safely recover. Thinking of him as ROB or Villager would help mentally prepare you for the lengths he will go to deeply edgeguard you. If Jr's timing on his Up 1 is on fleek, you'll be getting blown up by the Car itself as try to snap to the ledge. You COULD try to armor through his edgeguarding choices, but your timing will have to be as on fleek as his to survive. If Jr's running Meteor Ejection (Up 2), he may try to counter-armor through your recovery options for the spike, especially if he's spent all his jumps (including the Side B JC) beforehand.



Custom Loadouts:
Jr will likely be running one of these decks: 1111 or 1121 or 1113 or 1123 or 1211 or 1221 or 1213 or 1223.
Of these decks, 1111 or 1113 would be the most likely. If Smashville/Castle Siege/Delfino is suspected of being selected, sets featuring Side 2 and/or Down 3 might be up for consideration. Lylat Cruise's deck would probably be 3312 or 1312.

Air Cannon (Neutral 3) is the fastest of his 3 Cannons, and while it can push you back at times on-stage, it'll likely see no use off-stage, due to your DR overpowering it easily. For functionality reasons, you'll probably only see this at Lylat Cruise.

Koopa Drift (Side 2) gives him a phenominal horizontal recovery/movement option (which can help compensate for Meteor Ejection's lower vertical height if paired with it. However, Jr canNOT go vertically deep for the edgeguards if he's running x22x, because the JC height of Side 2 is the lowest of the 3 Side B moves), at the expense of Side 1's numerous JC juggles. This can mimic your DR's cheese KO power at Smashville/CS/Delfino, but it cannot match it, let alone exceed it, due to your DR growing in KO power as the percents rise, which is not possible for KD's Spinouts. If paired with Big Mechakoopa (Down 3), he can hold onto the Big Mecha while he's in the middle of the Side 2 Spinout, and remain completely safe from the explosion while said explosion will hit you for full damage.

You're not fast enough of a rushdown juggler to make most Jrs consider running Side 3 (Grounding Dash), as far as I'm aware. However, you MIGHT see him switch to Grounding Dash if he's looking to take you to Lylat Cruise, for it's the most functional of the 3 Side B moves over there. You'll probably also see him switch to Down 2 and possibly Neutral 3 as well if Lylat Cruise is being considered, also due to functionality. Grounding Dash has frame 1 super armor, allowing him to mimic your Rock Smash/Hurl's super armor. If GD hits you while you're in the air, you'll merely be launched a low distance, even at 100-ish%, so it's not necessarily a KO move by itself. If GD hits you while you're on the ground, you'll be buried for a time, and Jr's free to JC into whatever he likes if his JC timing's quick enough to actually trigger the JC.

Meteor Ejection (Up 2) will deny you DAir spikes and other upclose edgeguards, because If you're too close to him when he starts Up 2, you may get counter-spiked for your troubles. It's still pretty free to Flamethrower once he's out of the Car, however.

Impatient Mechas (Down 2) are his fastest distant anti-air option. Should he see you in the air, he will likely try to make you backflip with it. Like Air Cannon, you'll probably only see this at Lylat Cruise.

Big Mechas (Down 3) sacrifice Down 1 & 2's zoning capabilities for a KO projectile that, if paired with Side 2, can be safely smuggled in. You have a fantastic run speed to try to steal this with, so if you can, do so.



Zard will likely be running 1311 or 1313

While DR won't help you with piercing through either Mechas or Cannonballs, it'll still help you close in on Jr faster than FB can, and if you can take Jr to Smashville, Castle Siege, or Delfino, you can cheese KO him off the sides at ridiculously low %s.

Rock Hurl will protect you against his Side B JC juggles better than Down 1 can. It'll also make the timing for protecting yourself against his Up B --> A (Hammer) sharking attempts more lenient and thus easier to do.



Stages:
For us Zards, we'll want to strike FD/Omegas 1st thing (especially non-walled Omegas like Smashville or Lylat Cruise, where he gets to Side B Spinout his way under the stage and towards the other side of it), because we'll want platforms to help us navigate through Jr's Mechas, Cannonballs, and Side B JCs.

If the Jr player suspects that you'll be taking him to Castle Siege or Delfino or Smashville (which is where we'll want to take him if Customs are on), he may instead opt for running Side 2, Koopa Drift, for his own version of your Dragon Rush, though its KO power, if not close to the horizontal blast zones already when he decides to go for it, is worse than your DR. If he's going to mimic your DR, he'll need to heavily commit to his Side 2 Spinout closer to the edges than you'll have to, because KD Spinout's knockback doesn't drastically increase like your DR does when at higher percentages. Meaning, if he KD Spinouts you at 100+% at slightly to the left or right of center stage, you'll still be able to comfortably stick around, whereas if you DR Jr at those parts of the stage, you very well might be able to KO him, even with good DI.

We lizards also have Duck Hunt, Town & City, and Dream Land 64 as desirable stages, due to our UThrow KO-ing off the topmost platforms at shockingly low percents.

Lylat Cruise is only desirable for Jr if he gets to bring 1312 or 3312. Otherwise feel free to take him there, where his Side 1 & 2 get slowed down by slopes and his Down 1 & 3 struggle to stay on the stage.



Ratios:
W/Out Customs:
+1 or 55/45 Zard's favor, if Jr does NOT use Side B Jump Cancels. Add 5 points towards Zard's favor if you get to fight Jr at T&C, Duck Hunt, or DL 64.
0 or 50/50 even, if Jr DOES use Side B Jump Cancels. Add 5 points towards Zard's favor if you get to fight Jr at T&C, Duck Hunt, or DL 64.
-1 or 55/45 Jr's favor if he uses Side B JCs and successfully sends you to his best stages. (non-walled Omegas, etc.)

W/ Customs: 0 or 50/50 even, if Jr DOES use Side B Jump Cancels.
+1 or 55/45 minimum Zard's favor if you send Jr to your best stages (which can now include Smashville, Castle Siege, and Delfino)
-1 or 55/45 Jr's favor if he sends you to his best stages (non-walled Omegas, Lylat Cruise if he gets to bring 1312 or 3312, etc.)

I wish I could offer intel on the actual teams side of this MU, but sadly, I've not had the privilege of being in such matches, and the most I can offer on the teams front is FG Teams.
 

Steeler

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#7
Fireball Cannon is okay at annoying from a distance, because of the start up on his projectile moves and how far and fast the Fireballs travel. You lose Flamethrower for potentially ez gimps, but Fireball is still okay at clipping Jr from a distance. Flamethrower isn't very good in neutral because of how Jr's neutral works.
 

Splooshi Splashy

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#8
Considering how easily default Mechas and Cannonballs and even Side 3 can wreck Flamethrower, it's nice to read that Zard has an alternative in the form of Fireball Cannon. While it can disrupt many of Jr's moves such as his default Mechas & Cannonballs during their startup, and Side 1 & 2 in general, it won't be able to disrupt Jr's Side 3 too well, so if Jr's annoyed enough by Zard's Neutral 3, he might switch to Side 3 and/or even Up 2 in retaliation.

The 1st 3 huffs of FC are enough to KO default Mecha, but you'll need some distance (perhaps a little less than 1/2 the distance of an Omega? I'd say 1/2 the distance to be safe.) for all 3 huffs to come out, and it requires the most commitment of the 3 Neutral B moves. If the 3rd huff misses the Mecha, you'll likely be getting the full brunt of the explosive impact, and if Jr's ready for that moment, he can chase with Side B for the followup.

FC can also safely clank with tapped/uncharged Cannonballs, but it'll lose to charged ones, which will pierce through and hit you for full damage and knockback.

FC can still gimp Jr post Up 1/2 (from a further distance too!), but you'll need somewhat better timing/luck to pull it off than you would need with Flamethrower. To ensure that you're aiming FC downwards (which does reach further downwards than Neutral 1), hold down while holding B. Even if you don't gimp him with FC, at least you'll be able to snag some free damage from further away than Neutral 1 can.

I'm pleasantly surprised to be liking Fireball Cannon enough to recommend it over Flamethrower for this MU. I would've dared suggest Fire Fang, but giving up the ability to scare Jrs from recovering low might be too much to ask. Thus, I'd recommend 3311 or 3313 over 1311 or 1313. In fact, I'd personally run 3313 myself, were I to be Zard in this MU, going up against a Side B JC-ing Jr whose UAir sharking abilities are on point.
 

FlabbyOrb

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#9
I'm actually gonna say that Jr loses pretty badly to us.

Flamethrower stops most recovery options.

And we don't even have to go offstage.

Getting Jr. offstage is the problem which isn't too bad in my experience. Using armor and range is key.
Was bowser jr's airdodge out of up-b considered as a recovery option? Because im pretty sure bjr can recover low and airdodge the flames and follow up with the hammer which could possibly KO charizard if hes at a high enough percent.

i only say possibly because the hammer swing would most likely be sourspotted.

(charizard is one of my secondaries btw)
 
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#10
Was bowser jr's airdodge out of up-b considered as a recovery option? Because im pretty sure bjr can recover low and airdodge the flames and follow up with the hammer which could possibly KO charizard if hes at a high enough percent.

i only say possibly because the hammer swing would most likely be sourspotted.

(charizard is one of my secondaries btw)
Not quite, since I think Jr would still end up getting caught in the flames when he falls downwards if we're using it as an edgeguard tool, which would negate his hammer with flinch. We can also angle the flames into him if we need to.

Airdodging doesn't last too long and doesn't give a lot of invulnurability frames, despite what For Glory teaches you. Hammer gets beaten by Flamethrower or any of Zard's own aerials.
 
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