Charizard: Good or Bad?

[The Videofruit]

So according to most Tier Lists, Charizard is really low. But is this really because he is bad? I think it is more because he is a bit unexplored. What i've found, is Charizard has a great f-fair and d-air. D-air because of it's meteor, and F-Air because it is fast and is good for short hops. Flare Blitz, is great for dealing with people who try to fake you with air dodges and jumps, if you time it right. Though, mind the self-damage, obviously. Since Rock Smash has Super Armor, this is great for countering attacks, quick ones though. This isn't very effective against Mac and all of his long Super Armor, since it is a short Super Armor. Flamethrower is effective, most of the time if someone gets to close in front of you. Quite obviously, don't use it too long, but don't use it to short if you know what i'm saying. You want to get damage on them as well as distance them a little, so the perfect time for Flamethrower depends on the situation. Fly, being more than just a recovery,
is actually a well performing KO move.

Share your Charizard tips with me!
​

 

[Basseidon]

Appreciate your thoughts on this but this post mainly just informs us Zard mains of his move set. Zard can kill no doubt but as far as the character's data itself, he deserves to be on the bottom of those tier lists. Rock smash for example, as you listed, doesn't provide very good super armor. While it eats through most generic attacks, there are also many cases were it looses the priority battle. This is just a small example, but whether he is good or bad doesn't matter if you enjoy using him.

Besides he may get buffed today!!!! may..........

 

[The Videofruit]

Ok :D
I enjoy him, so might as well main him.

 

[Basseidon]

Being the underdog is fun! He does have some power behind him, so one wrong move on their part could spell disaster. Zard's biggest strength is his survivalbility imo.

 

[The Videofruit]

Agreed. Sure, they were noobs, but I won about 5 matches in a row as Zard

 

[joltekz]

he has some good matchups, but you'd definitely need a secondary because he is absolutely not solo viable.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Charizard definitely has a problem with its recovery. It has the 6th slowest air speed, only two mid-air jumps, and Fly doesn't offer much horizontal movement. Also, Flare Blitz is very risky to use as a recovery move with its damage penalty, along with its inability to sweetspot ledges, and the attack ends prematurely if it hits anyone.

Frankly, Dragon Rush is more efficient for recovery, since it can plow through multiple opponents, and doesn't have the damage penalty, but it still can't sweetspot ledges. As such, it would really help if Charizard received an air speed buff. That way, it'll be easier for it to recover low. Of course, in terms of vertical recovery, I've often found it better to use Fly High over Fly, even though the former doesn't have any hitboxes.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Horizontally with Flare Blitz eating 5% isn't a huge deal given the distance it covers, no side B goes that far in this game. When used with platform or ledges it's actually a fine recovery.

His air speed is a problem with recovery but having a second mid air jump helps a lot.

Fly's biggest advantage is the super armor on start up to help him get back to the ledge.

Zard has some huge hitboxes and the best Uthrow kill in the game.

So those help.

 

[arbustopachon]

I wouldn't call his Uthrow the best Uthrow kill in the game. Mewtwo's is more reliable as it kills earlier and it's not affected as much by Di.
Personally i think his best tool is his jab2, that thing just sets up so many mixups.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I wouldn't call his Uthrow the best Uthrow kill in the game. Mewtwo's is more reliable as it kills earlier and it's not affected as much by Di.
Personally i think his best tool is his jab2, that thing just sets up so many mixups.

I forget which is better with or without DI, but Zard is close if not better than Mewtwo's.

If there are platforms, then Zards is by far better.

 

[arbustopachon]

Mewtwo's kills around 3% earlier at the center of FD without DI. With proper DI i think he kills like 17% earlier or something like that.
I do agree that Zard has the best U-throw in platform stages though.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Mewtwo's kills around 3% earlier at the center of FD without DI. With proper DI i think he kills like 17% earlier or something like that.
I do agree that Zard has the best U-throw in platform stages though.

Umm...

I guess it is more DI dependant?

But yeah with platform stages like BF and such I do think it is no contest to Zard.

 

[The Videofruit]

he has some good matchups, but you'd definitely need a secondary because he is absolutely not solo viable.

Heh. lol. Charizard isn't my main or my second. I just enjoy playing him, so he is still up there with my other mains.

 

[arbustopachon]

Umm...

I guess it is more DI dependant?

But yeah with platform stages like BF and such I do think it is no contest to Zard.

Hu, my bad, i somehow compared Zard's 3ds kill percents with Mewtwos wii u kill percents.

As you can see here tho, Di barely affect mewtwo's U-throw.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Hu, my bad, i somehow compared Zard's 3ds kill percents with Mewtwos wii u kill percents.

As you can see here tho, Di barely affect mewtwo's U-throw.

Yeah, Probs with DI Mewtwo's is better on FD.

Not sure what the variance on it would be from memory though, but this is good to know.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

along with its inability to sweetspot ledges

Blatantly wrong. Flare Blitz can easily get the ledge.



Regardless, Charizard is good. Just not great. The main reason he's so low is because well... He's rare as ****. People don't know what he can do.

along with its inability to sweetspot ledges

Case and point.

 

[Steeler]

Zard is bad because every move he has is a notable commitment. He can rarely afford to throw out an attack for free. One of the most unsafe on shield characters in the game. Couple this with how badly he gets juggled and you have yourself a low tier. At best Zard is a Rock Paper Scissors character that only really excels at picking Rock.

 

[Indigo_]

Charizard is better than people give him credit for. His survivability will help him get some extra shots at low percent kills throughout the match and he has deep mixups in all phases of his game except for neutral. Unfortunately he loses most top tier matchups if not outright gets demolished. Overall, a good character that demands a good secondary.

1) Know your kill moves and kill percents.
2) Play patient, don't be afraid to take extra damage from small attacks if it helps you focus on your mind games.
3) Condition, Condition, Condition. You're going to have an opportunity to kill your opponent no matter what the match up is due to rage and charizard's decent survivability. Make sure you know what you're going to do when the stars align.

 

[Strider755]

Charizard may not be solo viable, but he's still a good character to play due to the lack of matchup knowledge. Plus he's fun. THen again, I don't think it's a good idea for anybody to solo main anybody - always have a backup or two.

 

[The Videofruit]

Yea. Charizard IS one of my backups :D

 

[HAVOC.]

Appreciate your thoughts on this but this post mainly just informs us Zard mains of his move set. Zard can kill no doubt but as far as the character's data itself, he deserves to be on the bottom of those tier lists. Rock smash for example, as you listed, doesn't provide very good super armor. While it eats through most generic attacks, there are also many cases were it looses the priority battle. This is just a small example, but whether he is good or bad doesn't matter if you enjoy using him.

Besides he may get buffed today!!!! may..........

No he did not sadly lol

 

[Tri Knight]

Charizard's a very solid character despite what tier lists may have you believe. He's got a lot of great options and can tank a lot of hits. He also has some rough weaknesses to combos however for obvious reasons.

He's only rated so low because he's massively underused. I'd call him a solid Mid-Tier character, personally.

 

[Indigo_]

He's rated low because he has horrible match ups versus almost all of the top tiers and very few favorable match ups overall.

 

[Deleted member]

He's rated low because he has horrible match ups versus almost all of the top tiers and very few favorable match ups overall.

Pretty much.

Outside of low/bottom tier, what are his solid favorable matchups?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Pretty much.

Outside of low/bottom tier, what are his solid favorable matchups?

Anyone who can't control the pace of the match well. I feel like his weakness is that he has to play at the opponents pace because of his below average frame data but then some characters can just make the match really fast paced like Sheik or Fox and he can't keep up at all. That's why I think that Bayonetta is about even, you have to play slow against her anyways and Charizard thrives off of that. Also Charizard kinda ****s her over in the neutral, offstage, and doesn't get put in kill percent by 1 combo like a lot of other characters

 

[Indigo_]

I don't think charizard has even one "solid favorable matchup." You will have to earn every victory you ever get. I think he has a slight advantage versus jigglypuff, lucina, and maybe wiifit.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't think charizard has even one "solid favorable matchup." You will have to earn every victory you ever get. I think he has a slight advantage versus jigglypuff, lucina, and maybe wiifit.

He beats Jiggs and Zelda (even then a Zelda playing super lame is hard to get around), that's it really.

Lucina and Wii Fit beat Zard.

 

[Indigo_]

He beats Jiggs and Zelda (even then a Zelda playing super lame is hard to get around), that's it really.

Lucina and Wii Fit beat Zard.

Yeah zelda is not bad. Def. very annoying.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Honestly, Charizard is a severely underrated character. I imagine that if M2K even began using 'Zard as a secondary, he'd probably shoot up the tier list. M2K loves Charizard, at least, and while he's not got optimal MU's against top-tiers, he's still decently viable with some other characters to cover his bad MU's.

Really, 'Zard is just mid-tier, IMO. Not low-tier, but definitely not high-tier.

 

[Steeler]

Zard does well vs low mobility targets with no good projectile zoning. So yeah, Jiggs is one. I think Zard does alright against Ike. Ganondorf (plus bad recovery). Characters where Flamethrower is actually a pretty strong tool imo. Luigi kinda fits the bill, especially since his nerfs - you can jab his fireballs from fairly good distance, enough time to jab again if he is trying to go in behind it. Flamethrower ****s on his fireballs too if you are smart about it. Zones Luigi harder than almost any other character. imo, Weegee has always been our best matchup above **** tier.

 

[Deleted member]

Zard does well vs low mobility targets with no good projectile zoning. So yeah, Jiggs is one. I think Zard does alright against Ike. Ganondorf (plus bad recovery). Characters where Flamethrower is actually a pretty strong tool imo. Luigi kinda fits the bill, especially since his nerfs - you can jab his fireballs from fairly good distance, enough time to jab again if he is trying to go in behind it. Flamethrower ****s on his fireballs too if you are smart about it. Zones Luigi harder than almost any other character. imo, Weegee has always been our best matchup above **** tier.

He goes even with both and imho. Dedede is more stage dependent though. D3 has the advantage on Town & City and Smashville, while he struggles on places like Battlefield/Dream Land and Duck Hunt. Ganon is a very volatile matchup when it's two top players pitted at another considering both have rather high damage output, and you gotta respect Ganon's aerials and offstage presence. Flame Choke is also a deadly punish tool.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Charizard has very few bad matches.

He just has a lot of not good ones.

 

[Deleted member]

*takes almost everything I said about Zard and shoves it in my throat*

Oh my god, those buffs.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

RIP fastfallers, from 37 -> 42 upthrow combos into flare blitz, kills Bayo at like 38 a the edge

We broken tier now? WE BROKEN TIER NOW

 

[Indigo_]

RIP fastfallers, from 37 -> 42 upthrow combos into flare blitz, kills Bayo at like 38 a the edge

We broken tier now? WE BROKEN TIER NOW

You serious? It can't be air dodged?

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Haven't had a chance to try out the new patch. WIth bair's long range and high damage, I'd love to see just how safe the move is on block. Air speed buffs might also help us combo better out of bthrow and dthrow.

I feel like this speed buff is going to be significant for charizard in terms of tier placements. He's been getting damage buff after damage buff. The character has been getting stronger power-wise, but he was too slow and too laggy to put the power to good use. Like add fuel to an engine, without speed there was no ignition.

Sakurai finally decided to buff the right things, and gave us the speed and safety to abuse our massive power.

Not being able to test the changes out myself is infuriating, but these changes make me feel optimistic about char's future.

 

[Indigo_]

Haven't had a chance to try out the new patch. WIth bair's long range and high damage, I'd love to see just how safe the move is on block. Air speed buffs might also help us combo better out of bthrow and dthrow.

I feel like this speed buff is going to be significant for charizard in terms of tier placements. He's been getting damage buff after damage buff. The character has been getting stronger power-wise, but he was too slow and too laggy to put the power to good use. Like add fuel to an engine, without speed there was no ignition.

Sakurai finally decided to buff the right things, and gave us the speed and safety to abuse our massive power.

Not being able to test the changes out myself is infuriating, but these changes make me feel optimistic about char's future.

Bair is -6 on block.

The movement speed buff makes it a little easier to land and do dthrow->fair, but the difference isn't as big as you might think. It's also hard to tell how much bair landing lag reduction will make a difference. It's still a very telegraphed move. However, If anything, this gives us extra motivation to re-double our understanding of zard's metagame and hopefully break down the barriers he faces.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

You serious? It can't be air dodged?

Tested with a friend, no he couldn't airdodge but there was a bit of delay so I'm not 100%
He also has combos off of downthrow, if this is all undodgeable holy **** charizard has to win the neutral like twice and the match is over

 

[Indigo_]

Tested with a friend, no he couldn't airdodge but there was a bit of delay so I'm not 100%
He also has combos off of downthrow, if this is all undodgeable holy **** charizard has to win the neutral like twice and the match is over

Bthrow->blitz is definitely avoidable. It was worth a second look after the patch though hah.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Bthrow->blitz is definitely avoidable. It was worth a second look after the patch though hah.

Backthrow is avoidable and not even worth the risk, if you mess up you just die. Downthrow and upthrow however both combo into it and kill super early, like its actually disgusting. With this **** i can solidly say charizard goes even with Bayonetta, they both dont have amazing neutrals and charizard just has to win like twice to win the entire game