Characters who need canon references toned down or removed

[Quillion]

So much moveset discourse is focused on giving more references to characters who have less... so let's talk about the opposite!

• Hero needs to a fixed Down-B instead of that weird menu. Pick a good move and stick to it. Also get rid of the crit mechanic on his Smashes; the other RPG characters don't have that.
• Remove the command inputs for the tradfighter characters. I can kinda live with Ryu and Ken keeping the tap/hold stuff though. EDIT: While I don't like the command inputs, I think it can be "toned down" by making the motion input moves equivalent to the non-motion input moves.
• I'd be a lot happier with Mega Man's moveset if he had more generic brawling strikes as opposed to needing to reference as many Robot Master weapons as possible. At least he could derive more from the Classics' melee weapons.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Min Min feels like the obvious one here.

 

[Opossum]

Genuinely what reason is there for removing command inputs that can't just be summed up as "skill issue" and nothing else?

 

[Quillion]

Genuinely what reason is there for removing command inputs that can't just be summed up as "skill issue" and nothing else?

Mechanical bloat.

I want to git gud for sure, but if gitting gud entails being dumped upon with so many core gameplay elements instead of learning a few versatile mechanics, no thanks.

Also, it comes across as adding a gimmick to unnecessarily increase the amount of options as opposed to picking and choosing the best bits as had been done for 64-Brawl moveset design.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Pikachu having those electric attacks is really annoying, same with Little Mac having all those punches, or Marth using his sword.

 

[RouffWestie]

Mr. Game & Watch is in desperate need of a moveset revamp. I'm thinking something more like Captain Falcon could work.

 

[Opossum]

Mechanical bloat.



Also, it comes across as adding a gimmick to unnecessarily increase the amount of options as opposed to picking and choosing the best bits as had been done for 64-Brawl moveset design.

It's not at all mechanical bloat though? It's an intuitive, easy-to-use mechanic that makes complete sense for those characters to have.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I want to git gud for sure, but if gitting gud entails being dumped upon with so many core gameplay elements instead of learning a few versatile mechanics, no thanks.

Boy, if you think special move inputs are mechanical bloat, wait until you see pretty much every fighting game that came out after SFII. Even ones that are meant to be more newb-friendly like Guilty Gear Strive.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

There are a few characters I would like in Smash by most metrics, but I know they'd just **** up with source accuracy: Cuphead and Crash Bandicoot are the big ones for me, they could be really fun if they just took creative liberties, but they're not going to, so it'll just be projectile hell and the unfocused mess that is Crash 3's move list. Put in King Dice and Dingodile instead I say (unless they give King Dice some BS move where he forces his opponents into a minigame or something)

 

[Guynamednelson]

There are a few characters I would like in Smash by most metrics, but I know they'd just **** up with source accuracy: Cuphead and Crash Bandicoot are the big ones for me, they could be really fun if they just took creative liberties, but they're not going to, so it'll just be projectile hell and the unfocused mess that is Crash 3's move list. Put in King Dice and Dingodile instead I say (unless they give King Dice some BS move where he forces his opponents into a minigame or something)

Or maybe their movesets will be perfectly fine because moveset design isn't as black and white as "make stuff up or it's an annoying gimmickfest"?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Remove the command inputs for the tradfighter characters. I can kinda live with Ryu and Ken keeping the tap/hold stuff though

So you're getting rid of the motion inputs but you're keeping the tap/hold stuff which is significantly harder to do consistently?

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

I'm a little surprised that Pac-Man hasn't come up yet, given he's literally the origin point of the "Two Flickies" meme. I get what they were going for by having him as some kind of "retro Namco" rep - in fact, given Namco's tendency to represent their arcade era in stuff like Ridge Racer or with the Namco Museum series, I can see how it'd make sense - but... they went way too far with it in some places.

It's weird, because I actually quite like his moveset on a mechanical level for the most part (with a couple of exceptions, the hydrant should spike, I swear) and I honestly think it kind of fits him in a weird way? The idea of Pac-Man being a zoner whipping out random bull**** kind of feels fitting for him, both in terms of his character and kind of in a meta sense with how his character has been explored and screwed with in so many ways.

It just feels odd to actually think about the fact that he just randomly summons sprites of the ghost enemies for all of his smash attacks, or that he randomly pulls out a hazard from ****ing Pac-Land for one of his specials. Case in point; that one taunt where he just holds up random Namco sprites. It feels like it was made specifically so you'd see 80 YouTube videos going on about how Pac-Man has "SECRET CHARACTERS" who were "FORGOTTEN AND LOST" (see: Dig Dug) in his moveset or something within the first week of the game being announced.

 

[FazDude]

On the topic of command inputs, I've softened up on them over the years. Sure, I'd rather there be an easier way to use Terry's Super Specials and Kazuya needs to be turned WAY the heck down, but conceptually speaking, I think they're neat little easter eggs that don't really get in casual players' way and serve as a nice bonus for those familiar with the source material.

Aside from the aforementioned Min Min and Hero (the latter I think just needs some tweaks to Command Selection rather than getting rid of it altogether)...

• I think Mega Man and the Belmonts need a physics-based overall. Sorry, their NES-style movement just doesn't feel great to me next to the rest of the cast. Same case for Ryu/Ken and their weird jumping arcs.
• I don't like Terry Back Special all too much. This one's more of a personal thing.
• A bit on the tamer, less-broken-more-annoying side is Banjo's Wonderwing. I don't like how it's handled; Feels like a lame way to give Banjo a "DLC mechanic" like most of the others in his pass. Shoulda been Beak Bomb; Wonderwing would make for a nice shield animation, though.

 

[Perkilator]

I guess Min Min to an extent? (Pun kind of intended.)

I guess the main issue is that she plays too much like she does in ARMS when you could assign different ARMS to different specials. Like, you could have the neutral special use her left arm, and the side special use her right arm and most of her normal attacks involve kicking.

Though if I’m being totally honest, I think canon references have their place depending on the character. For example, the command inputs on the FG characters are a staple of fighting games in general, but they’re not mandatory to play the characters themselves.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Remove the command inputs for the tradfighter characters. I can kinda live with Ryu and Ken keeping the tap/hold stuff though.

One of the things that has defined an entire genre should be scrapped but the obscure reference no one would get because no one plays the original Street Fighter is fine?

Also, thoughts on their proximity normals?

 

[SharkLord]

Giving Hero a fixed menu would actually be more accurate to the games. As far as I know, the RNG menu is a Smash original and not really a reference. At most it's an exagerration of the random aspects of the RPG genre, but it's still not all that accurate.

Genuinely what reason is there for removing command inputs that can't just be summed up as "skill issue" and nothing else?

Personally I'm iffy on weird movesets that add entirely different inputs that most fighters don't have. The original concept of Smash was that everyone had the same inputs, so they're all easy enough to pick up an play. I can pull off quarter circles completely fine, but it's just kinda weird when you compare them to the rest of the cast.

Clearly, the solution is to give everyone motion inputs so they're all even. When everyone has quarter circles, nobody does.

 

[Geno Boost]

Steve
he didnt need all that over complicated stuff it makes him less fun to play as

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Peach needs to ditch the float to get rid of all the mechanical bloat there, and Kirby could definitely do with less jumps.

EDIT: Trolling aside, I feel like the main culprit of new characters going against the Smash formula being poorly received is DLC. If Min Min were to be added to base game, we’d have her embedded in a batch of more Smash-natural newcomers like K. Rool, Inkling, Incineroar and Ridley. Instead, we had to wait I-don’t-know-how-many months for an ARMS guessing game before getting to play as one of six fighters released across two years just to realize she goes against all of our muscle memories and we have a good batch of mains anyways. Base game newcomers can be forgiven for not fitting out playstyle because not everything new about the game is going to cater to us, but there’s always one or two to catch our eye, but making the whole community wait six months means that people are going to wait two years for a newcomer that plays like Smash instead of being a history lesson.

Challenger Packs add to this by only bringing in a stage, spirits and music with a fighter, meaning that how the character plays and their moveset must not only serve as a playable version of said character, but also representation of the game itself. K. Rool only had to represent K. Rool himself, but Joker Persona 5 must also be a reflection of Persona 5 aesthetica because Persona didn’t get any items, ATs or other fighters outside of Joker.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Kirby is the only character that gets new things every single time a new character is made. Sounds like mechanical bloat to me

Joking aside...

Giving Hero a fixed menu would actually be more accurate to the games. As far as I know, the RNG menu is a Smash original and not really a reference. At most it's an exagerration of the random aspects of the RPG genre, but it's still not all that accurate.

I think the idea Quillion was going for was that Hero didn't need 20+ spells from his games. Heck, the literal next sentence was "Pick a good move" so he wants the whole menu gone.

As someone who loves to dabble in a little bit of chaos, I stand opposed to it out of principle but I can see why he'd want that.

 

[Quillion]

It's not at all mechanical bloat though? It's an intuitive, easy-to-use mechanic that makes complete sense for those characters to have.

So you're getting rid of the motion inputs but you're keeping the tap/hold stuff which is significantly harder to do consistently?

As SharkLord said, the idea of characters having motion inputs is just incongruent with the idea of every character having the same set of inputs so that it's easy to pick up and play everyone. It really comes off as arbitrarily needing to pay tribute to the source games for those characters. It also doesn't help that it's implemented in overlap with Smash's regular inputs; even as Smash-type inputs grow in popularity in recent tradfighters, even those have the sense to toggle between those instead of having both at once.

I'd love to see a platform fighter that is built exclusively around motion inputs though.

Boy, if you think special move inputs are mechanical bloat, wait until you see pretty much every fighting game that came out after SFII. Even ones that are meant to be more newb-friendly like Guilty Gear Strive.

See, the ironic thing is that newer tradfighters have moved towards simpler inputs, to the point of having Smash-like options that can be toggled.

But they've now traded that for a bunch of coexisting variants of super meters, plus stuff like super cancels, parries/just defense, comeback mechanics, x factor/sparking/whatever. I just want to punch and throw out specials man, I don't want to deal with all this crap.

Or maybe their movesets will be perfectly fine because moveset design isn't as black and white as "make stuff up or it's an annoying gimmickfest"?

The problem is that Sakurai as of Smash 4 is in a phase of increasingly overdoing the canon references.

We can only hope he tones it down like he decided to tone down the "low skill ceiling" for Brawl.

One of the things that has defined an entire genre should be scrapped but the obscure reference no one would get because no one plays the original Street Fighter is fine?

Also, thoughts on their proximity normals?

Eh, honestly I would be a lot happier without the tap/hold attacks.

Proximity normals are a lot better though, since it's more-or-less the game passively picking not-too-different moves when an opponent is close on an input.

but conceptually speaking, I think they're neat little easter eggs that don't really get in casual players' way and serve as a nice bonus for those familiar with the source material.

Actually, maybe the motion inputs could work a lot better if they ACTUALLY were easter eggs instead of literally adding options to the point of missing out if you don't want to do them.

Just make them equivalent to the "regular" versions of the specials just so the tradfighter players who are used to playing that way CAN do so.

Totally agree in changing Terry's desperation and eliminating a good portion of Kazuya's stuff though.

 

[Quillion]

Link in Ultimate should've had a made-up Hookshot Rune to preserve his grab and z-air instead of losing it just to cater to the BotW portrayal.

 

[Kirbeh]

Link in Ultimate should've had a made-up Hookshot Rune to preserve his grab and z-air instead of losing it just to cater to the BotW portrayal.

I still think they ought to just bring back OoT/TP Link and commit to making BotW even more different.

 

[Quillion]

I still think they ought to just bring back OoT/TP Link and commit to making BotW even more different.

IKR? Having the former be the base Link again just feels right. The only potential problem is that TP Link would have to lose the wind on his Gale Boomerang, but that's a minor consideration. Plus, hearing Hiyama and Sasanuma's voices on their respective Links would be a joy not even a second Hyrule Warriors crossover can achieve.

Also, I think SSBU Link as a portrayal of BotW is largely good as it is. Just give him Champion GFX on his shield, Up-B, and respawn and maybe a few weapon-changing normals here and there, and Ultrahand for his grab, and that'll be a good portrayal of the Wild Saga without going too overboard.

 

[Quillion]

Because Min Min is now considered THE biggest example of source material faithfulness hurting actual Smash gameplay (even among "Canondorfs"), I'll say my part on her:

Make her designed more after Dhalsim from Street Fighter as opposed to her own game; limit her mobility and let her take damage to her ARMS hitboxes (perhaps heavy armor on them). Among other things of course.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Make her designed more after Dhalsim from Street Fighter as opposed to her own game; limit her mobility and let her take damage to her ARMS hitboxes (perhaps heavy armor on them). Among other things of course

Honestly I think there's a canon fix to this problem that would work better.

Instead of giving them ties to Min Min's body, we could let each ARM be knocked away like in ARMS. If it clanks with another hitbox, the ARM could go slack and fall to the ground with a small recoil animation (not too slow though). It's canon, but will fix a lot of the gripes that Min Min has.

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

I’m not the biggest fan of gimmicky movesets or most character specific comeback mechanics and I do think some characters like Hero or Kazuya should be changed if they return. That said, I think there’s not that much need for reform and I would be fine if it doesnt happen should some of the “gimmicky DLC fighters” return.

We talk about overdesigned movesets a lot here but for the most part, casual players seem to be fine with them. If someone knows the basics of Smash they can pick up and have lots of fun with Steve or Kazuya, and their gimmicks aren’t really intrusive since they can still play as them just fine. When the biggest playerbase of Smash is still able to have fun with gimmicky characters, I don’t think tuning their gimmicks should be the biggest priority.

I’m not saying this to be reductive, again I do want some moveset changes. I’m just saying I think sometimes when we’re on Smash sites like these we can lose sight of what the average casual Smash player sees as fun or how they play the game.

Min Min is an exception IMO because her gimmicks are more intrusive rather than additive and makes the fundamentals of the game harder for not much fun benefit. That’s kind of another discussion though.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Honestly I think there's a canon fix to this problem that would work better.

Instead of giving them ties to Min Min's body, we could let each ARM be knocked away like in ARMS. If it clanks with another hitbox, the ARM could go slack and fall to the ground with a small recoil animation (not too slow though). It's canon, but will fix a lot of the gripes that Min Min has.

On that note, what makes Kazuya an annoying gimmickfest is stuff that was made up for Smash. Fighters in Tekken don't have universal super armor on all their attacks, the closest it has would be "Power Crush" attacks in Tekken 7/8 of which none of Kazuya's are in his Smash moveset, and changing between his human and devil forms in Tekken doesn't work the way it does in Smash. It's more like a stance than something Kazuya temporarily shifts into for one move.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

On that note, what makes Kazuya an annoying gimmickfest is stuff that was made up for Smash. Fighters in Tekken don't have universal super armor on all their attacks, the closest it has would be "Power Crush" attacks in Tekken 7/8 of which none of Kazuya's are in his Smash moveset,

The double dash attack reflecting projectile is the one thing that I feel is extremely egregious. Like, the generous amounts of invincibility and armor are certainly bull****, but giving him a reflector because why not feels extremely random and is the most un-Tekken thing I can think of right now.

and changing between his human and devil forms in Tekken doesn't work the way it does in Smash. It's more like a stance than something Kazuya temporarily shifts into for one move.

Having the Devil form pop out for things that aren't traditional to Tekken, like smash attacks, specials and double jumps, is a fun creative liberty that allows you to fill every gap that Kazuya couldn't fill without going Devil, like having a recovery.

You'd be surprised how many mechanics are loosened or altered so that they no longer feel 1:1 with the source material but more functional as a moveset. The best example being that Cloud would have no specials if the Limit gauge wasn't full.

 

[Quillion]

Honestly I think there's a canon fix to this problem that would work better.

Instead of giving them ties to Min Min's body, we could let each ARM be knocked away like in ARMS. If it clanks with another hitbox, the ARM could go slack and fall to the ground with a small recoil animation (not too slow though). It's canon, but will fix a lot of the gripes that Min Min has.

Not a fan of that idea because in ARMS, the ARMS weapons can only be damaged if the user isn't attacking. I think letting the ARMS weapons transfer damage directly to Min Min is a nice and simple implementation of the concept without going overboard.

I’m not saying this to be reductive, again I do want some moveset changes. I’m just saying I think sometimes when we’re on Smash sites like these we can lose sight of what the average casual Smash player sees as fun or how they play the game.

I find the average casual Smash player has very little idea or care for what good moveset design is though. It's well known that they only care if the character is in the game or not, not so much how the functions of their gameplay contribute to the whole of Smash.

It's the opposite extreme of competitive Smash players being nitpicky and making huge deals out of tiny frame differences. There's definitely a balance to be had in catering to the tastes of both.

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

I find the average casual Smash player has very little idea or care for what good moveset design is though. It's well known that they only care if the character is in the game or not, not so much how the functions of their gameplay contribute to the whole of Smash.

It's the opposite extreme of competitive Smash players being nitpicky and making huge deals out of tiny frame differences. There's definitely a balance to be had in catering to the tastes of both.

I never said casual fans have care for good moveset design, most of their takes on it are obviously quite shallow if they’ve only played the game a bit. I’ve played with many people who called Little Mac broken because he hits hard lol.

I’m just saying the majority of movesets can still be broadly understood to them, and sometimes people can lose sight on how casual fans can still have fun with them which is a big priority of Smash as a series.