Characters can no longer pass through each other - How will this specifically affect the Smash Bros meta game as a whole?

[Katy Parry]

I’ve seen this on a lot posts as a debate, when I don’t think it’s a debate.



To begin, Sakurai said with Smash 5, he debated whether to make a new game with new mechanics, (Dragon Fighters 2) or build on what he already had. He decided the latter for various reasons.

In Smash 4 he stated in a recent famitsu interview that the balloon knockback was a change he was wanting to make for a long time. Smash 4 had more important priorities than adjusting the mechanics too much.

So for Smash 5, he’s added mechanics he’s pondered on for a long time. Balloon knockback, instant short hop attacks, reverse power shield, etc. he’s refining the game.

So why is passing through someone something he wouldn’t revisit?

In a recent stream from Treehouse, Fox stops at a shield with his side B, and Sakurai pointed out this was a bug.

So most people assumed he meant characters should be able to pass through each other. I don’t think that’s the case.

I’ll edit this with gifs in a moment, but characters being able to pass through each other was something that was never address as a party game. Now that this has a lot more competitive aspects, some you cannot have without the other.

Keep in mind his is Dragon Fighters with Super Smash Bros as a skin. If he had made Dragon Fighters 2 with no relation to Nintendo characters, I bet you characters would not be able to pass through one another, as that’s how all fighters work already.

Passing through someone gives up all the stage control you’ve worked for. You got someone in a corner and they just run right through your body? They’re not ectoplasmic beings.

This will really change the metagame of Smash bros in my opinion. It allows the pace of the game to flow correctly. Passing through someone else interrupts that. Notice how they only pass through each other when crossing the Z axis of the game, logically making sense.

Smash is not a game of sense, no. But Dragon Fighters: REALIZED might be. It’s just got Nintendo characters in it. And others. It’s his view of the “ultimate” fighting game. It’s representive of his legacy he will leave behind.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Nohbl]

Shield grabbing should be easier. Feints become less effective.

What are your thoughts?

It's stupid.

 

[Tornado_Man]

I don't really have a strong opinion either way. I'd have to see more before I really decide.

 

[Katy Parry]

Shield grabbing should be easier. Feints become less effective.

It's stupid.

Do they though, truly? Also it doesn’t make shield grabbing harder.

Take this quote from another thread.

That... is a very good point... a good few points, actually. I hadn't thought of this. However, with all the feedback from pro players they're asking for, this might change regardless.

However, if it's entirely intentional, then this makes Shield Break punishes pretty much certain death. Also, no more run past to pivot grab setups.

On the plus side, however, it adds a strong sense of being a solid object in the game world. They're not this gelatinous ectoplasm that they've always been in previous Smashes where each character can fade through each other like some sort of intangible ghost; they are solid objects now. Walls to prevent forward movement.

I can imagine Zelda [for example] having an immense shield break punish from this now.

Break Shield > Zelda pushes victim to the edge of stage > Zelda fully charges Phantom > Zelda runs and jumps past victim while Phantom waits > Zelda is now placed over the void for the setup > Phantom dashes forward and launches the victim > Zelda meteor smashes victim into oblivion with down air > PROFIT.

In regards to it being a bug, I had assumed the statement in question was specifically made towards the Fox Illusion s.

Seems to not only be intentional, but Sakurai is a fighting game genius. It makes it more traditional. Meaning certain attack patterns are risky and now ground game is more rewarding. If anything, it buffs shield grabs because jumping is riskier now.

 

[Nohbl]

Do they though, truly?

Yes. Maybe you misunderstood what I meant. What I really mean is that players lose out on more feints. They can still feint in other ways, but now a classic choice is completely off the table.
You can't run past turnaround grab anymore. You can't short hop past them and wait anymore. Can't run around their shield and confuse them.
This eliminates completely some options in neutral.

Also it doesn’t make shield grabbing harder.

I didn't claim that. I claimed it was easier now.
Now that you know that there is one less option you need to keep in your mind, deciding when to shield grab and when to do otherwise is simpler.

With regard to the quote, you already can push people if you walk. It's just running that doesn't affect the opponent.

Seems to not only be intentional, but Sakurai is a fighting game genius.

Umm... where are you getting that from?

It makes it more traditional.

While his changes to perfect shielding make it less traditional.

Meaning certain attack patterns are risky and now ground game is more rewarding.

How is ground game more rewarding when you, as the offensive opponent, have fewer things you are able to do now?

 

[Katy Parry]

Yes. Maybe you misunderstood what I meant. What I really mean is that players lose out on more feints. They can still feint in other ways, but now a classic choice is completely off the table.
You can't run past turnaround grab anymore. You can't short hop past them and wait anymore. Can't run around their shield and confuse them.
This eliminates completely some options in neutral.

I didn't claim that. I claimed it was easier now.
Now that you know that there is one less option you need to keep in your mind, deciding when to shield grab and when to do otherwise is simpler.

With regard to the quote, you already can push people if you walk. It's just running that doesn't affect the opponent.

Umm... where are you getting that from?


While his changes to perfect shielding make it less traditional.


How is ground game more rewarding when you, as the offensive opponent, have fewer things you are able to do now?

It’s still Rock Paper Scissors man. Simplicity doesn’t water down what matters. It’s just clearing out some of the mess, and yes, confusion.

Reaction has always been more important in fight games than just making senseless risks that work, like running past someone for free. That’s not a competitive driving aspect.

So you can’t run past pivot grab anymore. You’ll have to think of a new choice in your option select. You run away pivot grab now. Which is still confusing.

 

[NintendoKnight]

Another thing that I noticed in regards to this physics change, and in regards to the Fox Illusion bug is this small tidbit from Ike's Ultimate Trailer:

So the Illusion/Phantasm is not supposed to stop on Shields, however it IS supposed to stop on Counters. You can tell where the bug occurred with this mechanic being intentionally implemented.

 

[Nohbl]

So the Illusion/Phantasm is not supposed to stop on Shields, however it IS supposed to stop on Counters.

Stupid crap.
The hitboxes aren't even on their bodies.

 

[Katy Parry]

Stupid crap.
The hitboxes aren't even on their bodies.

But Ike is still countering and he should win because he anticipated his attack.

Not only this, but it causes anything you do out of dash less likely to whiff if you accidentally passed through them instead. Now you can confirm jab more comfortably, among other things.

 

[ZeroJinKui]

wait, so... no more passing through each other? does the same go for containers?

...all i'm worried about now is that i won't be able to take funny screenshots.

man, that is depressing... i took countless screenshots in brawl that had me laughing so hard.

now that is gone, apparently.

 

[Big-Cat]

While his changes to perfect shielding make it less traditional.

See Red Parries in 3rd Strike.

 

[Katy Parry]

See Red Parries in 3rd Strike.

Yeah, my friend is starting me on this game and it def reminds me of what I've seen gameplay wise.

 

[Lozjam]

This gives a substantial buff to the heavier members of the cast, effectively giving them a way to “catch” opponents, stopping them from having 100% stage control.

 

[ThatOneAnon]

wait, so... no more passing through each other? does the same go for containers?

...all i'm worried about now is that i won't be able to take funny screenshots.

man, that is depressing... i took countless screenshots in brawl that had me laughing so hard.

now that is gone, apparently.

The only thing that truly matters around here. Smash Ultimate confirmed for Trash Ultimate all day every day Sakurai more like Hackurai
/s
In reality I don't think this'll affect much in terms of competitive play, other than making it way easier to hit opponents out of dash cause you don't risk walking straight through them and your attack hitting the air. Actually what am I talking about that's gonna buff a lot of characters like Lozjam is saying.

 

[Halkite]

I like the change. Heavier characters also potentially have an easier time w/ shield breaks

Outside of a gimmick like Marth/Lucina's shield breaker or jigglypuff pound.

 

[Nohbl]

You also can't preemptively tech chase when afront a downed opponent, which hurts slower characters.

 

[Lozjam]

You also can't preemptively tech chase when afront a downed opponent, which hurts slower characters.

Slow Characters are more negatively affected by tech chases over helped by them

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

If this was intentional then that E3 build needs some work. Aerials, dash attacks, and Fsmashes still crossup shields like this is any other Smash game.

Even if you were somebody mad at crossups and wanted them out, you'd think the exception would be made for Special moves instead of normals. If this was a targeted nerf to specific moves on Bayo, Fox, and Sonic, then that's fine, but not being able to run past a shield just seems awkward when you can attack through one. It's inconsistent logic that doesn't seem to harken to any classic fighter.

 

[Nohbl]

Slow Characters are more negatively affected by tech chases over helped by them

You can't necessarily say "slow" here as a catchall, as different characters have different tech roll lengths.

 

[Nebunera]

I don't really mind, this is probably something I can adapt to really fast. Maybe it could be for the better, so that the characters are not just running around through each other.

 

[Katy Parry]

I don't really mind, this is probably something I can adapt to really fast. Maybe it could be for the better, so that the characters are not just running around through each other.

Exactly, it's a welcome change

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

I don't mind this change.

Clearly this game is deviating from the other smash games and Sakurai is trying to gradually change the series. He did think on just rebooting the series anyway.

It allows for characters to maintain stage control better like in Traditional fighters where one person has the other person cornered. No more just running away from people as easily which is a good thing. It makes you think about your choices now just like the rolling and air-dodge changes. Sakurai is removing mindless options from the game in order for you to think about your choices. It just means the neutral / pressure changes now which is never a bad thing. This change only punishes the person who doesn't have stage control and gives more reward for those who do like in traditional fighters.

Of course this could just be a bug or changed, however we did find out that balloon knockback was intentional for sakurai.

Sakurai basically referred to Smash as a Fighter now in that Famitsu column and referenced Tekjen and other games on some reasons for his design choices.

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

Ledge trapping will become even stronger across the board if this stays.

Sit at the ledge, hold shield when the enemy does something, roll gets stuck and shield grabbed, neutral getup leaves them just as cornered as before, getup attack gets blocked and hard punished, ledge jump changes it to a landing situation and is probably going to become the most commonly picked option, ledge drop double jump aerial will always get shield grabbed or accomplish nothing since it can't be spaced and will never crossup, and ledge hang doesn't apply here.

If anything it looks like all the characters that would normally get blown up at the ledge will get blown up by even more characters.

 

[Homelessvagrant]

wait I'm pretty sure rolling counts as a move to the z axis, so you should still be able to roll through an enemy on ledge.

 

[Katy Parry]

You certainly can from the looks of it.

 

[GTZ]

I like the changes from what I have seen so far.. Will need lots of hands on time upon release to properly analyze this.. As a heavy mainer in Smash Ult. I am happy about this as it helps a bit in some areas.

 

[S_B]

This change means that heavies have actual presence as it's not possible to pass through a heavy character by simply running at them and trying to hit them from behind.

Nothing worse than going to hit an opponent who dodges your attack entirely by simply running through you...

 

[Mogisthelioma]

No more annoying crossups and mixups. Less bugs and glitches. This should have happened years ago.

 

[Bendario]

While his changes to perfect shielding make it less traditional.

Actually, Perfect shielding is now like parries in many other fighters (like SF3) in which you release your blocking stance with good timing to get rewarded, with the risk being that you are no longer blocking, so mistiming it gets you hit and punished.

roll gets stuck and shield grabbed

Rolling still goes through opponents.

 

[S_B]

This raises questions about how the game handles teammates: can you still walk through teammates? Does team attack being on prevent you from running through your teammate?

 

[Emblem Lord]

You can walk through your teammate.

I am all for this change. Give me my stage presence. Give me my corner control. I earned it.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

Honestly I love this change.
Now it makes sense that you can bounce on the head of the opponents, since they are solid and you can't pass through them.
It makes the game feel less glitchy.

I think that competitively it will change the things a bit, but it won't be a downgrade. I'm sure people will find new tricks and techs to exploit the new mechanics.
Honestly I think that this new Smash improves a lot of things gameplay-wise over the past Smash games.

I like that big characters now have an advantage (they are big and block more space in the stage) and they don't just have the handicap that being bigger they're easier to hit.

And lol, this change and the fact that you can only go through characters by rolling for some reasons reminds me of this:

 

[S_B]

You can walk through your teammate.

I am all for this change. Give me my stage presence. Give me my corner control. I earned it.

What about with team attack on?

And yes, Bowser being a giant sack of flesh now means he can use that flesh to control the stage instead of just being easier to hit.

 

[Swaggy-G]

I'm all for any change that buffs slow characters.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Also the only characters that heavily benefited from this were the fast characters. Heavy/slow characters typically don't get nearly the same amount of reward for going through someone because they're just too slow and reliable to get punished.

 

[Nohbl]

Actually, Perfect shielding is now like parries in many other fighters (like SF3) in which you release your blocking stance with good timing to get rewarded

That is one way of looking at what happens.
What actually happens is that you try to do a "special block", shall we say, that doesn't provide a fallback in case you fail to block. You can do this special block out of a normal block, but you do not have to do it out of a normal block---you can do it out of idling too---which is why, again, this change to perfect shielding makes tr45h's system less like other fighting games, in this sense.
But indeed, in your sense, tr45h's system is alike other fighting games' in now having no safety net for attempting to parry.
Still, and I am speculating here, that this is the only sense of similarity---another disimilarity is being unable to parry close consecutive hits, because raising the shield and dropping it takes too long, much longer than just having to raise it at the right time.

I'm all for any change that buffs slow characters.

You mean "nerfs non-slow characters".

 

[Johnknight1]

I don't fully understand the ramifications, but here is what I think.

1v1's
-The neutral will involve more zone and space control. I think this is a good.
-Rolls with be more valuable. I think given that roll speed is reduced rather swiftly by rolling, this is good, but I think roll speed decays insanely fast so maybe it's overtuned for this change? I could be wrong, it's early. It just seems like these two things do too much of the same thing and nerfed such well timed roll strats into the ground.
-It makes shield pressure and parries more important. This is good.
-It makes jumps and the aerial game more important. Considering aerial combos and jumping aren't necessarily as safe (though with wavelanding and reduced aerial lag it is a bit more) and the game is more grounded, that makes the mix of both these things a very good combo. So it matches well with it.
-It matches traditional fighters. This is neutral in how it effects the game, but it doesn't hurt perception at least (especially since Smash Meter is busted and should never be run in tournament).

However, with 2v2's and all team modes and Free-For-All Modes it makes the game insanely worse.
-1v2'ing is now way harder because you can't get past opponents. So once someone is cornered, they should get KO'd easily. This makes comebacks less likely artificially, which is bad.
-Also for Free-For-All's this means if someone has a lead or gets targeted, doing so is much easier.
-You can't go thru allies. This is bad, and means in teams players will routinely step on each other's feet. If at least this were changed, it would be a very big deal and help teams. But at the moment, this is a gigantic detriment to teams.

Overall I think it is a net negative, but with a few tweaks may be a net positive. I do not., however, think it is a crisis, although I am worried about how it could prevent comebacks in doubles (but I could be wrong). This is why I prefer the old/current way. I think there's enough systems in place in this game to alleviate the dev's feelings that we need this.

However again, if you could:
1. Pass thru allies
2. Make dodge roll decay was more forgiving (ie: it reduces decay more slowly in a stock by like half)
3. Allow more attacks to move an attacking character to move behind their opponents (mostly for when moves land but in some instances when they hit shield for counterplay) to make changing positions more natural
4. Be able to crawl to move past characters (this would make having crawls more beneficial and make crawling actually matter)
5. Give frames right after attacking for the attacking player to (purposefully) move past their opponent

Then these gameplay changes could be a net positive and would be much more interactive. And I think they would be super interesting to interact with, to a degree where not just will I change my mind, but so will many people who dislike this change.

 

[Bendario]

another disimilarity is being unable to parry close consecutive hits, because raising the shield and dropping it takes too long

You can, we have seen it happen many times since the invitational at E3. Also, you are directly downplaying how it is night identical to parrying in the SF3 games. Both can be done when idling or while blocking, both involve purposely not guarding with timing needed to succeed.

That said, the fact that you are using the term "tr45h" proves that you are simply trolling and are dead set on disliking the game, so nothing you post means anything in this conversation any longer.

 

[S_B]

You mean "nerfs non-slow characters".

And that's a bad thing...why, exactly?

SSB has been historically dominated by fast characters, and it gets boring AF to watch. They already have the best frame data and are evasive enough that it's harder to rack damage on them.

They could use some REAL disadvantages for a change.

 

[Untouch]

-You can't go thru allies. This is bad, and means in teams players will routinely step on each other's feet. If at least this were changed, it would be a very big deal and help teams. But at the moment, this is a gigantic detriment to teams.

I believe It's been confirmed that you can pass through allies already.